Author Topic: Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors  (Read 6263 times)

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Offline diamondgeezer

Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Heat seekers track stealthy ships but not ships flagged invisible to sensors.

Coders, please. Argue about it amongst yourselves all you like, but please, at least look and tell me whether it is feasible.

If we're going to have 'that doesn't happen in real life' 'duh, this is a computer game omfg lolololol' everytime someone posts a code suggestion this place will collapse under sheer weight of retardedness

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Maybe we can just use prim sensors instead?  Or do those also block locking onto friendlies?

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
A stealth ship tries to minimise it's emissions and reflection on whatever band on the spectrum the enemy tries to use.

BTW those eye comments: do you know how freaking advanced thing your brain is? Just because you see smg. doesn't mean you'll notice it. Your brain can interpret that image and realise it's a ship's trail you're seeing - a computer may have trouble doing so.

Space is huge - you can't even find a goddamn planet if you don't know where to look. In spaceoperas it seems quite simple while in real life™ it would take days of observations to calculate a single planet's position.

If subspace interacts with gravity - and we're inclined to thik so- than it becomes a bit easier, but it's still a complex task.

Now imagine how hard it is to spot a single warship smaller than a bigger asteroid?

The only thing I can think of is to listen for distinctive radio/EMwave signals the ship might emmit from its engine or reactor - if both are powered down you're in trouble. Of course the hiding will run low on battery power eventuelly.

You may look for the actual gravity of the craft but that method only works in deep space, and the presence of any planet can screw things up, since you're looking for extremely minute changes caused by a ship with neligable mass in terms of gravity.

(Asimov uses this method in his Empire books - Currents of Space e. a.)

FS radar is probably some advanced radar that scans for engine signatures - since you use fusion engines you inevitably create a lot of waste signals on the spectrum - nuclear reactions tend to do that.

At this point it becomes smg. similar to today submarine warfare - you can even identify a single vessel by it's distinctive sound if you have a previous sample.

So a stealth craft doesn't have to be all that stealthy to begin with - especially in a nebulae.

Of course big active radars can pick you up - this is the reason big ships send you the target data most of the time.

However just like active radars today using one equals shooting at the top of your lungs: "Hey, I'm here buggers!!!"

Of course it has it's own troubles - in a stellar system it takes EMwaves minutes and hours to get to a planet, and it takes a huge ammount of energy to cover an area that big a have an echo.

So EMwaves are good for only short range scans only.

Therefore I think any long range scan requires subspace radar or an equivalent.

If detecting something is this hard when designing a stealth fighter all you have to minimise is EMWave stealthyness - just as with a craft built today. This includes the heat signature.

That's about detecting something.

Locking on is an entierly different thing!
You have to know the precise position and speed of the craft - and let the missile know it too.

In FS they don't use radar guided missiles - maybe since fighters only have passive radars - only optical (aspect seeking) and heat seeking remote weapons.

However there's no such thing an invisible craft!!

Even a stealth fighter/bomber will have a radar/EMwave signature as well as heat signature.

Therefore some weapons will still be effective against such craft at very short range.
Heat Seekers definitly - aspectseekers may have trouble since they are optical  guided and even if they mange to lock on to the stealth craft it's very vague shape and unusually low profile can screw them.

You could build special rockets to be used against stealth craft, but these sensors will have to be so sensible that ordinary signatures may burn them out.

With heat you don't have this problem - even the best insulated craft will have a heat signature - although an IR aspect seeker could use that too, let's assume that FS ships emmit heat only with their engines - and give a heat seeker a chance to get it.
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Offline Goober5000

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Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Heat seekers track stealthy ships but not ships flagged invisible to sensors.


If this is the case, then it's a bug.  Put it in Mantis and we'll fix it.

 

Offline diamondgeezer

Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Just promise not to 'fix' it so heatseekers don't even track stelath ships...

Harumph. Anyway, the idea with these fellows I'm shooting at is that they're unlockable. They're not completely invisble, so they do appear faintly on radar, but your targeting computer isn't having any of it. Thus a simple heatseeker can track them.

 

Offline WMCoolmon

  • Purveyor of space crack
  • 213
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
For what it's worth, I like this idea. It gives a reason to use the MX-50s instead of aspect seekers. If it's such a big concern to people, a "no-heat" flag sounds good.
-C

 

Offline Carl

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Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Quote
Originally posted by LLivingLarge
What if the Shivans ran on COLD FUSION?


*beats head into desk repeatedly until the space bar is jammed from all the blood*

1. Cold fusion was a HOAX! IT WAS A FREAKING HOAX! STOP LIVING 20 YEARS AGO!!!! *breaths* *calms down*

2. Even if Cold Fusion was real, A heat seeking missile could still lock onto a ship using it, because the "cold" simply means that heat isn't used to actvate it. The fusion itself will still create heat.

*passes out from blood loss*
"Gunnery control, fry that ****er!" - nuclear1

 

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
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  • Push.Pull?
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
I'd like an option that if you fired a Rockeye without a lock, it would track ANY heat source, including friendlies.

 

Offline Woolie Wool

  • 211
  • Fire main batteries
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Quote
Originally posted by Nico
I mentioned real life coz you did :p "as in real life".
And I doubt heatseeker missiles have IFF discriminators anyway. They target a heat source and, well, that's it.


According to FS1, the MX-50 (and probably by extension the Rockeye) will only track targets determined to be hostile by its onboard IFF indicator.

UT: No. That would make Rockeyes useless, since their only advantage is that they DON'T require lock, allowing you to spam them all over the place.
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Offline magatsu1

  • 210
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
yeah, and if the ship is invisiablebbeleele  to radar the IFF won't be able to identify one way or the other
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Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
megatsu1 there's no freakin need to identify the IFF!

All the missile has to do is:
FRIENDLY?
....... - from the target

IF IFF = FRIENDLY --> NOT TARGET
ELSE - kill the sucker

BTW YES, you should be able to cover the entire screen with them - however that's perfectly fitting with the missile! A rockeye is the easiest missile to get off your back - it has a low range and it can easly loose the track of its target.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Drew

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Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Quote
Originally posted by Flaser
megatsu1 there's no freakin need to identify the IFF!

All the missile has to do is:
FRIENDLY?
....... - from the target

IF IFF = FRIENDLY --> NOT TARGET
ELSE - kill the sucker

BTW YES, you should be able to cover the entire screen with them - however that's perfectly fitting with the missile! A rockeye is the easiest missile to get off your back - it has a low range and it can easly loose the track of its target.



ummm.... A heatseeker wouldnt read IFFs. It would only read heat signatures in its veiw cone. The seeker system probably reads some other variable to identify freindlys
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Offline diamondgeezer

Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
For the record, it's quite possible to aim the AIM-7 using only its heat seeker. You point it at your target and listen for the tone. This lets you fire it without having to lock up the enemy, thus not alerting them to your threat. The downside is you can't be 100% certain it's tracking the right object and if your buddy is right up the enemy plane's tail pipe you risk hitting him...

 

Offline Zarax

  • 210
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
You are surely talking about AIM9...
AIM7 is a semiactive radar tracking piece of crap, capable of alerting even the most primitive RWR.
Though a semiactive tracker would be nice into FS2...
The Best is Yet to Come

 
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Actually, the Sparrow itself wouldn't trigger an RWR. It's the firing plane's radar that does that, since, you know, you need to keep it locked on target in order for the missile to even see it. Unless the targ is jamming, then you can just let it lose on Home on Jam mode (learned that in LOMAC, wewt)

 

Offline Joey_21

  • 28
    • http://denebsystem.cjb.net/
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
To keep things Freespacey while adding a little sense of realism, I think it should happen like this:

Heat-seekers track enemies regardless of whether or not they can be targeted with optional flag "track-friendlies" to allow modders and mission makers the ability to kill friendlies as well - although I do not see a good point behind that but what the heck...

 

Offline Zarax

  • 210
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Yes, but you need to track it until the impact or the sparrow would simply fly straight ahead...
I learned most of my military knowledge frm Tom Clancy's technical books...
I even made some FS2 weapons basing on them, and they works pretty well...
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
AFAIK most long-to-medium range missiles would tend to have internal radar to track the target.  I'm pretty sure AMRAAMs do...although my entire technical expertise is based on the late-but-great Strike Commander

 

Offline Zarax

  • 210
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Yep, all fire and forget Radar missiles have an internal radar...
AMRAAMs were the second ones to use that tech...
Still, i'd rather use the great AIM-54C Phoenix... Range:184km@mach4
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline Unknown Target

  • Get off my lawn!
  • 212
  • Push.Pull?
Heat seekers don't track targets invisible to sensors
Ok, how about allow Rockeye's to hit friendlies? After all, if they're heat-seeking, and you spam a bunch off, there should be a chance that they'd go for other targets, not just the one you're locked onto.