[Vasudan Admiral]

Also, you kinda...missed the SCP forum.

But yeah the moderators of Gen FS can move this full topic to the SCP forum. I'll lock the new almost empty one in the FSU forum.

[potterman28wxcv]

Sorry I didn't know the moderators were able to make it, they really are super-moderators, having as many power as superman or chuck norris  

Edit : Ok, the moderators closed my topic in the SCP board. So, let's continue in the General Freespace Discussion, waiting for an entire move of the topic  

[chief1983]

Interesting idea, but to get around the 1-0 issue, why not just use - ?  It's to the right of 0 and everything.  When in the context of the command menu, it should be ok to use it shouldn't it?  Otherwise it performs its normal behavior, just like 1-0 have other behavior outside of the comm menu.  Or did someone already suggest this?  It was somewhat TL;DR for me.

[potterman28wxcv]

I think you talk about qwerty keyboards  on azerty keyboards, there isn't any '-' at the right of the 0

yeah that's another way to add those options 

[NGTM-1R]

I've thought about it some more and I can't honestly support the decision as useful. The circumstances in which an AI-controlled player wing can rapidly overpower their opposite numbers are extremely few, as most missions typically place the enemy AI at a higher level. Giving a whole wing orders to engage and destroy a single enemy works, however. It may keep you busy directing your subordinates like that, but the proposed solution here is simply going to get them killed and offer no real advantage by its addition.

[General Battuta]

I've thought about it some more and I can't honestly support the decision as useful. The circumstances in which an AI-controlled player wing can rapidly overpower their opposite numbers are extremely few, as most missions typically place the enemy AI at a higher level.

True in retail, not in mods. There are also situations (even in retail) where the enemy wing is largely defenseless - for example NTF bombers.

[QuantumDelta]

Hmmm?
I could make loads of use with that order.
Instead of having to use generic shift-p, 3 or shift-p 2-* or shift-p 1*, instead of using c31, or shift-e 3.


I'll tell you what the two pointless orders that get AI killed are;
Shift-c, 3, Shift-w, 3.
Unless they're used very specifically.

Most AI orders carry that risk, in fact, as any AI already engaged wont finish their fight if the player orders them to do something else, which means they'll just fly to their next objective.
Just because you can't think of a situation where you could implement it doesn't mean other people can't, and isn't a reason to skip it's inclusion.

[NGTM-1R]

True in retail, not in mods. There are also situations (even in retail) where the enemy wing is largely defenseless - for example NTF bombers.

The only mods I can think of offhand which gave player wingmen higher AI classes than normal were my own campaigns, ITDOH, and Blaise Russel's SoL/Homesick set. None of them are particularly recent. WiH probably will too, I'm aware, but not many others.

It's totally dependent on how you divide up friendly/enemy fighters. Smaller numbers of player wingmen on the field means you give them a higher AI class. At that point wing orders aren't much of a point since you can just distribute them individually to targets for better control.

[potterman28wxcv]

Hmm.. fighters can be killed too by this technic. But, to do this, AI have to be approximatively 1500 meters or 1000 meters from the enemy wing to attack. Else, they would enter in "AI dogfighting mode" and that wouldn't be good. And if AI mates are already engaged, it's true that will make them die.

However, this order could be very useful in missions where there are more than 1 vessel to protect. For example, in Exodus, player have to defend Lambda 1, Lambda 2, plus two another ships to protect. How can the player know what is the target of the bombers ? Anyway, he can target one of the bombers and then "Target the target's target". But what if the bombers change their target ? And in the game, the player have something else to do. Then a single command like "destroy the wing of my target" could tell the AI to destroy the wing 

[Solatar]

Give the player the ability to easily target entire wings (like when you hotkey a wing). Say you press a key to target a target's wing; the rest are in white brackets, just like a hotkeyed wing.

Make the 'destroy target' etc. recognize that the entire wing is targeted.

Problem solved.

[General Battuta]

Give the player the ability to easily target entire wings (like when you hotkey a wing). Say you press a key to target a target's wing; the rest are in white brackets, just like a hotkeyed wing.

Make the 'destroy target' etc. recognize that the entire wing is targeted.

Problem solved.

That would not be an acceptable solution; sometimes the player wants to target specific ships in a wing.

[Droid803]

Uh, he said the ability to target entire wings, not  "only be able to target entire wings".

I don't see an issue with a separate key to target the entire wing (or just "target my target's wing")

[General Battuta]

You are right, I am wrong. Whoops.

[QuantumDelta]

Target my targets wing sounds awesome to me!

[Nuke]

what about a select nearest non-targeted target control. i find it frustrating trying to find something to shoot that one of my wingmen aren't already shooting at.

[headdie]

how about ignore my target

[Dilmah G]

Yeah well, you never, ever, disengage if you're in guns range, because if he's in range of your lasers, that means when you turn around, you'll be in range for him to blast you to pieces. Same goes moreso for your wingmen. At least if one of my wingmen are going for guns, it means their target isn't on their six blasting them to ribbons.

[QuantumDelta]

And that's why my most used order is engage enemy.
Keeping the AI alive > Protecting a few percentage while moving to whatever it is you need to protect.

[Sushi]

Give the player the ability to easily target entire wings (like when you hotkey a wing). Say you press a key to target a target's wing; the rest are in white brackets, just like a hotkeyed wing.

Make the 'destroy target' etc. recognize that the entire wing is targeted.

Problem solved.

That would not be an acceptable solution; sometimes the player wants to target specific ships in a wing.

Actually, Battuta's right about this, at least if we're using the white brackets for targeting "the rest." How could you tell if you targeted the wing or hit a hotkey with several ships attached? What if, instead of shooting the whole wing, you wanted to just give orders shoot the one you have targeted and keep an eye on the rest?

I actually like the idea of doubling/tripling the command menu size by allowing shift and other modifiers to be used for "new" commands. Heck, while we're dreaming, why not allow an arbitrary number of orders in the engine, and be able to select which ones appear as extras on either a per-mod or per-player-options basis? After the new pilot code, of course.

[General Battuta]

The problem with using shift or other modifiers is that they lock out the rest of the controls, which is pretty disastrous.