Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => Gaming Discussion => Topic started by: BritishShivans on December 03, 2014, 11:00:31 pm
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Too bad that part is stupid and utterly ruined the Bentusi. Instead of giving them a definitive *reason* for fleeing and being afraid of the Beast, enough that they refuse to help anyone else in any way, they're just "oh no the beast will eated us." It's shameful.
Just like nearly the rest of the game lol
But yeah, the cruise missile mission was actually pretty great. Very anxiety-inducing, especially since the missiles start trying to lure your ships into scenarios where they can infect them and the transports.
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Too bad that part is stupid and utterly ruined the Bentusi. Instead of giving them a definitive *reason* for fleeing and being afraid of the Beast, enough that they refuse to help anyone else in any way, they're just "oh no the beast will eated us." It's shameful.
They kind of do have a reason. When Bentusi get eaten, they get to stay alive and fully conscious while their ship assimilated, as opposed to the "Bound" (IE: not wired into the ships) who get turned to mush. Imagine a Borg drone fully conscious of what it was doing but unable to exert any control.
For them it's a fate worse than death, and I can understand them wanting to get the heck out of dodge.
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(http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cLmw5kJMT3s/hqdefault.jpg)
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Except that is the thing: They can still blow themselves up if they get infected. There's nothing that stops them from just using the Naar Directive - and even more so, since it's been implied it's a single Bentusi for each ship! That means that they have even less things to stop them from just killing the Beast with fire! It's badly thought-out and really just one of the more idiotic cop-outs that Cataclysm makes.
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Welp, I should probably do some more reading then!
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The naar directive relies on someone else venting the plasma . Bentusi don't want to die, they don't want to be slaves either.
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The naar directive relies on someone else venting the plasma . Bentusi don't want to die, they don't want to be slaves either.
...Bentusi ships are supposedly entirely automated due to being integrated with their pilot. They would be the ones venting the plasma.
(By which - venting the plasma with extreme prejudice into any Beast infection detected the moment it touches the hull.) And they can still blow themselves up. You might have a different view of them, but HW1 established that the Bentusi are very altruistic - regardless of how Cataclysm ****s on them.
The idea that they'd focus on Karan specifically and just run away because oh no stupid skin disease nanobots is... quite a heel-face turn. One that doesn't really make sense character-wise. Regardless of the "they will be trapped forever" shtick.
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...Bentusi ships are supposedly entirely automated due to being integrated with their pilot. They would be the ones venting the plasma.
That's not how the integration process works in Homeworld. There is no automation; the pilot is assuming control of literally all ship functions, with their autonomic nervous system being repurposed to handle minor, ongoing ones and their conscious mind handling others.
Blowing yourself up is easy and quick for escaping a fate worse than death. Identifying, isolating, and rerouting drive plasma through infected compartments takes time you do not have when there's only one of you. The Naar Directive is more easily implemented by multiple crew working in tandem than by a single mind of the Unbound.
For that matter, you're overlooking two other serious problems. The Bentusi do not use reaction drives in any of the Homeworld games, so venting their drives into infected compartments would be...difficult. Second, even if they have a ready source of weapons-grade plasma, somewhere, the way the Somtaaw ships use it during Naar Directive protocols is downright weird and not something that you would normally think to design the ship to do. Somtaaw ships are explicitly unusual in design, with most of them having been repurposed from mining craft; their ability to carry out the Naar Directive may well be related to their hybrid design and simply not something Bentusi ships are capable of doing.
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Except with the Bentusi, it's always been implied that it's one Bentusi per ship? And what does that say? If it takes so long for drive plasma, or hell, just plasma, to be vented, then why do the Bentusi even bother integrating themselves if it offers no advantages of a large crew or replaces a ship crew?
More so, the "their ability to carry out the Naar Directive may well be related to their hybrid design and simply not something Bentusi ships are capable of doing." is a load of bull****, considering that a lot of ships can't be infected by the Beast. Perhaps it's meant that they can be infected, but that's nothing that happens to imply that they can't just use the Naar Directive anyway, either.
Honestly, what's really irritating me here is that the Bentusi are supposed to be *beyond* the Hiigarans. Catacylsm just goes "hurr skin disease nanites woo" and turns them into a bunch of cowardly old wankers who are so self-serving it's cartoonishly evil. Moreso, the Bentusi Tradeship, which is implied to have wiped out an entire imperial fleet, is taken down by a pissant strikecraft swarm and a red snot-covered heavy cruiser (no, i will not stop mocking the beast for it's stupid "spaceship skin disease shtick"). To add to this, when you fight them, their weapons are such a far cry from HW1 that Somtaaw's ****ty converted fleet can survive for ****ing ages.
(the Taiidan imperialists are also cartoonishly evil, but let's not get started on that :nervous:)
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There is also the possibility, besides the eternity enslaved in living hell bit, that they were concerned about the repercussions of having their ships and technology assimilated into the Beast. Its one thing if the Beast has access to a bunch of lower race technology but getting its hands on top tier equipment quite likely would have made them impossible to stop.
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Claiming that the Naar protocol must apply to the Bentusi otherwise it's a plot hole is the worst kind of nitpicking, really.
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I think it's an interesting reversal of perspectives here. I mean, it's not like britishshivans isn't saying what the Somtaw commander tells the Bentusi in the middle of their clash.
I think he's correct, that the Bentusi are behaving in an extremely cowardish way. Having said that, I don't think it's a plot mistake. At worst, just a bit stretching it, but the way the writers used the powerful Bentusi as the providers of the consciousness that the Beast is so ****ing terribly scary that even the Bentusi are ****tin their pants off is quite efficient and it delivers properly to whoever is playing the game that nasty feeling of "Wow if even these guys are fleeing, I'm in the ****ter".
Because let's face it. The Bentusi would have to appear in that game and they would have to engage the Beast at some point as being relevant to their own existence within the plot. If they appeared willing to fight and "generously" sacrificial and so on, the overal tone of the game wouldn't be as dire and desperate. It would fail to convey the terror that the writers wanted to convey. Instead, by having them be the "voice" of fear, it does two things: one, it paints the Beast as a really existential threat to the entire Galaxy, two, it conveys the courage and heroic nature of the protagonist clan.
I think it works. Is it perfect? No. It also stroke me a bit as not entirely believable. But it's well written and delivered. So it never took me out of the story.
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Worth noting that in HW1, "unbound" meant spacefaring, not integrated into the ship. That part is 100% a Cataclysm invention.
Actually, I'm fairly sure that the idea that the Bentusi are integrated into their ships is also a Cataclysm invention.
But Cataclysm was easily the least Homeworldy of the three HW games. It's a decent game as a standalone, but it doesn't have the feel HW1 or even HW2 did (for all its flaws).
Also, the Naar directive is something that applies to Somtaaw ships only for some reason. Captured Taiidan ships and allied Kushan ships don't have it because the Somtaaw are the specialest Kiith with all the fancy, never-before-seen gadgets that a bunch of miners would obviously have access to. Clearly the Bentusi can't do it because they aren't as special as the Somtaaw.
*Aesaar is really not fond of Cataclysm. Except for the manual. So pleased it isn't getting an HD version.
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The plot is doing the works to tell you that only Somtaaw has the necessary drive to research and develop the knowledge and technology to defeat the Beast. All other parties "wake up" to the threat too little too late, and have no idea on how to deal with it because it's a sort of a black swan to them. It's not a bad plot, it was Somtaaw that found and caused the Beast to escape into the Galaxy. They first thought of it as a bad situation that they were personally responsible for, and so they were very dedicated to solve it. Then, slowly realised that this was actually a galactic existential threat, but at that point they did have some advantage on all others regarding R&D, etc.
The plot does assume that everyone else is a bit dumber, etc., than they should be, but hey. Regarding the "Homeworldly" feel, I understand but disagree. Homeworld without Cataclysm is a bit different thing for me.
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I find homeworld 2 Bentusi less Bentusi than cataclysm Bentusi.
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Luis Dias: Yeah, that's the explanation the game provides. I still don't buy it. The Somtaaw had special stuff even when the campaign started, and some of the stuff, like the Naar directive, isn't excusable by that explanation.
Dekker: HW2 Bentusi are a lot closer to HW1 Bentusi than Cata Bentusi are.
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Give an alien race a script and suddenly everyone's judging them....
Seriously though, I did enjoy playing Cataclysm, it had certain UI advantages over Homeworld (the better tactical map controls were a godsend) that made it more satisfying to play AI-skirmishes on.
As for the story, well, it moved the game along, I felt compelled to stop this monster I had released, and if there were a few plot devices, as long as the missions themselves were fun to play, that was ok. I quite liked the linking technology to be honest, it gave a quick way to deploy corvettes.
I don't think it bothers me at all that both Cataclysm and HW2 exist, I loved HW2, even if it was a little too capship oriented for my tastes, and Cataclysms story was involving, but a bit cliched, but when you look at them as games, rather than as just stories, there's not much to really complain about.
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I don't think it bothers me at all that both Cataclysm and HW2 exist, I loved HW2, even if it was a little too capship oriented for my tastes, and Cataclysms story was involving, but a bit cliched, but when you look at them as games, rather than as just stories, there's not much to really complain about.
Alas, they followed a game that you definitely could NOT say that about.
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The odd thing about Homeworld was that its clunkiest part was the game mechanic, the graphics were amazing at the time, the music, the story and the atmosphere were all incredible, and then came the game-balance...
I know the Homeworld technique of punishing the player for doing well has always been a controversial one, but it's actually been wound back from the original. Also, harvesting, whilst I don't like HW2's habit of whisking you away at the end of a battle and auto-harvesting resources, but Homeworld lacked the time acceleration of the other two games as well, so resource hunting at the end of a level became a real chore. I've already mentioned the inability to select and move multiple units on the map screen.
So the weird thing is that, whilst I absolutely adore Homeworld as a game, I agree with you.
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OTOH the clunkiness is more than compensated for by the accidental brilliance of salvaging.
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Salvaging is win.
I really adored cataclysms stark dystopic terrificly ominous music.
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Honestly, what's really irritating me here is that the Bentusi are supposed to be *beyond* the Hiigarans. Catacylsm just goes "hurr skin disease nanites woo" and turns them into a bunch of cowardly old wankers who are so self-serving it's cartoonishly evil. Moreso, the Bentusi Tradeship, which is implied to have wiped out an entire imperial fleet, is taken down by a pissant strikecraft swarm and a red snot-covered heavy cruiser (no, i will not stop mocking the beast for it's stupid "spaceship skin disease shtick"). To add to this, when you fight them, their weapons are such a far cry from HW1 that Somtaaw's ****ty converted fleet can survive for ****ing ages.
The beast is literally subverting every piece of everything, cannibalizing it into more of itself. Would you like to live out your days connected to an ICU as you watch every single part of your flesh, your bioship, turn on you?
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OTOH the clunkiness is more than compensated for by the accidental brilliance of salvaging.
Yeah, that aspect of Home world was utterly amazing, and the changes made to it in HW2 were a net negative for the game by far.
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Neither Cataclysm or HW2 allowed you to salvage beyond your supply limit. It's quite irritating. Especially in Cataclysm, because salvaging is the only way to get ships that don't look like ****.
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Except with the Bentusi, it's always been implied that it's one Bentusi per ship? And what does that say? If it takes so long for drive plasma, or hell, just plasma, to be vented, then why do the Bentusi even bother integrating themselves if it offers no advantages of a large crew or replaces a ship crew?
You've managed to completely screw up the argument by adding bits that were never said.
The Bentusi have managed to create a system in which one person can operate an interstellar starship. This is a significant achievement and far beyond Hiigaraan practice in most respects; even the motherships did not go that far. It is supplemented by automated strikecraft.
However, all systems have tradeoffs. A Bentusi ship is, for example, armed with only a single offensive and defensive weapon, a triple ion cannon on a semiflexible mount. This makes a great deal of sense, considering it has literally only one person aboard; it cannot engage multiple targets as easily and flexibly as a system which incorporates multiple people.
Similarly, the Naar Directive requires the completion of several complex tasks at once, involving identifying a strike location, rerouting drive plasma, and sealing the effected area off, any one of which could fully occupy a single mind. It is also something that very few rational people would ever consider necessary to design a system to actually do. (How often exactly do you want to have the ability to incinerate your own crew? How many accidents do you think it would cause?) The Bentusi system is extremely, incredibly advanced, but it is being faced with a problem it is almost certainly not designed to handle and for which the easiest solution, the use of further people to ease the workload, is not available to the system they have designed.
The Bentusi are not cowards or fools. They have simply been confronted with a problem for which they are not prepared, and the answers to which work against their previous design choices. Fixing the issue will take time, time they (and everyone else) do not appear to have when they make the decision to flee.
More so, the "their ability to carry out the Naar Directive may well be related to their hybrid design and simply not something Bentusi ships are capable of doing." is a load of bull****, considering that a lot of ships can't be infected by the Beast.
I point you to the fact that literally to the end of the game Taiidani ships are vulnerable at all sizes; so are regular kushan navy ships unless they're being controlled by the player.
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I point you to the fact that literally to the end of the game Taiidani ships are vulnerable at all sizes; so are regular kushan navy ships unless they're being controlled by the player.
Well, there is quite a few ships that don't have an infected version of themselves, making them un-infectable from a gameplay perspective. From memory, these are all kushan + taidan frigates & destroyers, as well as a good chunk of their fighters and corvettes + the Turanic standard corvette. On the other hand, Ion Array Frigates and Taidan Heavy Cruisers can be infected just fine.
If I recall correctly, we do see infected Kushan frigates in animatics, so yeah, I agree that pretty much every ship is supposed to be infectable in-story, even if Somtaw destroyers & above are able to withstand it, which in my opinion is more of a gameplay necessity being handwaved through fluff.
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what the **** happened
i disappear for a day or so and this happens
what have you DONE
also the naar directive is still bull**** thanks because kushan (not Somtaaw) ships are literally uninfectable
and beyond that one unused infected ion cannon frigate there's nothing that again says that non-somtaaw ships can't just use the naar directive
tell me where somtaaw ships are the only ships that can set fire to themselves, ngtm 1r
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I point you to the fact that literally to the end of the game Taiidani ships are vulnerable at all sizes; so are regular kushan navy ships unless they're being controlled by the player.
If I recall correctly, we do see infected Kushan frigates in animatics, so yeah, I agree that pretty much every ship is supposed to be infectable in-story, even if Somtaw destroyers & above are able to withstand it, which in my opinion is more of a gameplay necessity being handwaved through fluff.
Except the handwave doesn't work, because there's absolutely no reason Taiidan and Kushan ships wouldn't be able to do it. It's not like Kiith Somtaaw ships were designed that way. The Naar Directive is an improvised solution which was adopted after the ships using it were built.
Similarly, the Naar Directive requires the completion of several complex tasks at once, involving identifying a strike location, rerouting drive plasma, and sealing the effected area off, any one of which could fully occupy a single mind. It is also something that very few rational people would ever consider necessary to design a system to actually do. (How often exactly do you want to have the ability to incinerate your own crew? How many accidents do you think it would cause?) The Bentusi system is extremely, incredibly advanced, but it is being faced with a problem it is almost certainly not designed to handle and for which the easiest solution, the use of further people to ease the workload, is not available to the system they have designed.
Again, Somtaaw ships were not designed to incinerate themselves. The Naar Directive was first used on a ship as an improvised measure.
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Again, Somtaaw ships were not designed to incinerate themselves.
You're saying that like it's true.
It's clearly not.
Yes, it's improvised, but you can't improvise this from nothing. At minimum you actually need drive plasma and the ducting to get it where you want to go as well as the ability to seal the ship into sections so it doesn't spread further than that. Considering we're talking about fusion reaction plasma here from your fusion torch rocket, that's some pretty serious ducting and sealing you're going to have to do. The Naar didn't have to install this stuff; it was already there.
An argument can be made they somehow initiated a controlled breach of existing ducting for their maneuvering thrusters, and in a "lose the ship or do this" situation the kind of damage that might do could be justified. But doing that successfully for this purpose is a really low order of probability. The Naar survived without having laid waste to half the ship like they probably should have in that situation, assuming there was even a duct to breach where they needed one to be.
And of course everyone's conveniently ignored the Bentusi might not even have the plasma since they are observed in both Homeworld and Cataclysm to be scooting along reactionlessly.
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It's true in that Somtaaw ships were not specifically designed to be able to effect the Naar Directive (given that it wasn't a thing when the Deacon was originally built), and there's absolutely nothing to indicate that Somtaaw ships are different enough from the norm that they would be able to flood their hull with drive plasma while other ships couldn't. Except to emphasize how ~special~ the Somtaaw are.
I don't care about the Bentusi, because Cata's Bentusi have nothing in common with HW1's Bentusi except for the tradeship design. It's a big enough disconnect that I'm perfectly happy ignoring them entirely. I'm talking about Kiith Mary Sue Somtaaw's special snowflake status.
They have all this advanced experimental tech like leeches, sentinel shields, repulsors, the best fighter, multi-beam frigates, super drones, and missile batteries on their refitted cargo ship/destroyer (on top of standard destroyer guns). All the while the military kiith have barely advanced from HW1. Clearly, Kiith Somtaaw is a bunch of savants who have decided to take up mining because they're bored.
"They're the only ones who take the threat seriously" will only go so far before it stretches suspension of disbelief to the breaking point.
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Except the handwave doesn't work, because there's absolutely no reason Taiidan and Kushan ships wouldn't be able to do it. It's not like Kiith Somtaaw ships were designed that way. The Naar Directive is an improvised solution which was adopted after the ships using it were built.
To clarify my point of view: I don't think the Naar directive is a Somtaaw-specific thing. The way I understood it (granted, I have not re-read the manual in years), any sufficiently big ship should be able to do it, which is why I was quite surprised when I saw my shiny new Heavy Cruiser get infected. To me, the reason of the Naar directive for existing is two fold:
First, it's a balance imperative: you can't have the player lose things like the command ship, carriers, dreadnaughts or destroyers get taken out and turned against you because of a stray cruise missile or an unavoidable beam. It would basically mean that your big ships could get one-shot while the enemy get a free Capital Ship (which I personally think would be quite an awesome challenge :P , though I'd keep the Command Ship immune).
Second, it's a technical imperative: every ship that can get infected needs to have an infected version of himself, with its own texture work and, I suspect (I might be wrong, so don't quote me on that particular point), its own "I'm getting infected" animation (I think Taiidan carriers can't get infected despite having an infected model). Which is why pretty much every Somtaaw frigate-class and below can be infected while frigates of other factions can't, whith the exception of Ion Array Frigates and Heavy Cruisers that we see get infected on-screen in mission 4 and, in the case of Heavy Cruisers, in the last mission.
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I assumed the naar to simply pop the oven (fusion core) door open so to say, and seal bulkheads/force open where needed. No ducting involved.
what have you DONE
I see what you did there.
For the heck of it. ..
(http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2011/045/e/9/homeworld_universe_map_v_2_by_norsehound-d39k9yo.png)
The above was what inspired Naar or not?
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Aesaar, BritishShivans, you're both capable of having discussions with more sophistication than this petty nitpicking. This is the kind of technical obsessiveness you'd expect from Salty on the BP boards, not you guys.
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Well, to my simplistic understanding, Relic pretty much wrote-off Cataclysm because it apparently went against the flavor of the classic Homeworld. Though I do admit quite a bit of love towards teh failz Taiidan Republic.
Overall, while Catacylsm had a nice score, lots of improvements to game mechanics and pretty sweet missions, the story was... welp, generic body horror sci-fi tropes that left me feeling there was a much better idea that had been beaten into luke warm plot buster for a B rated movie. And the Bentusi being cowards? hate to say it, but I thought that completely went against the original spirit of Homeworld as well, because we were left with a mysterious and enigmatic trader race. Attempting to flesh out the Bentusi in such a manner felt not only out of place and time, but convoluted as well.
Some of the back story regarding Hiigaran-post Taiidan Empire relations was pretty cool to explore, throwing in the Beast? Welp, kinda threw out a greater idea ripe for exploitation.
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Aesaar, BritishShivans, you're both capable of having discussions with more sophistication than this petty nitpicking. This is the kind of technical obsessiveness you'd expect from Salty on the BP boards, not you guys.
It's really hard to have a sophisticated discussion about Cataclysm because there's barely anything sophisticated about it once you finish reading the manual's fluff. It's a game about how Mary Sue saves the galaxy from the strawberry jam Borg.
I mean, HW2's story is pretty dumb too, but it at least has the HW atmosphere and makes a few interesting contributions to the universe (the religious side of HW2's story is easily its strongest element). Cataclysm's manual does that, but the game itself does not.
HW2 also has great-looking ships, whereas 90% of Cata's original ones look terrible.
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Cata ships are indeed FUGLY.
HW2 strikecraft. .... SEXY.
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To be honest, I'm not sure aesthetics really apply, since opinion is subjective, I was never a big fan of the original Taidani Cruiser, but equally, the Somtaaw Carrier is a low-poly abomination compared to the sleek lines of the Hiigaran one.
So I suppose the argument here is not really whether Cataclysm is a good game, but whether it is a good Homeworld game...
To which my response is; since HW2 completely ignored the existence of Cataclysm anyway, does it matter?