Author Topic: Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity  (Read 3529 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
This doesn't seem like anything new. The old Inferno continuity always made it clear that the Earth guys used Sol technology, FreeSpace canon has always made it clear that most of the GTA's industrial, social and scientific power was in Sol, and the other thread already talked about the use of von Neumanns to construct the Lunar worldhouse - and why it didn't make it any more plausible.

'Because it's cool' is probably a more reasonable explanation. While I respect your effort, you've fallen into the trap of giving too much detail and then failing to extrapolate the consequences. Nanotechnology is an old, hoary, well-used science fiction trope, and a lot of people have done a lot of thinking about its consequences.

I'm excited for this campaign, but I think you should focus on the stuff that people actually care about: the gameplay.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
After reading the first part of your post, all I can say is: Exactly. My primary concern was showing that I did not make revolutionary changes to Inferno, and instead promoted ideas which would have easily explained many of the questions INFR1 and INFA left unanswered. That's why, under many points of view, there's "nothing new" here. I didn't like the Mobimod thingie (and I'd like to point out that you came out with it in the first place), so that's my response. "Because is cool" may work, but "because is cool and plausible" works even better here considering the load of scientific, canon and INF sources.

Finally, as I stated a zillion times, focusing on the missions is the most important aspect of development. If working on these background ideas has induced anyone to think that it's all words and no well-FREDded missions, all I have to say is that similar thoughts are plain wrong.


Well the big explanation didn't explain anything, so what now?

We still have the problem of the EA apparently having jumped up half a rung on the Kardashev scale. You said how they domed the Moon, but didn't explain how this doesn't allow their fleets to almost literally blot out the sun. A single one of your nanomachines seeded on an asteroid could produce thousands, maybe millions of warships given adequate time.

I'm willing to roll with magic nanotech, though realistic nanotechnology constructors behave a lot more like very industrious sperm. But if you're going to roll out an idea you have to tackle the consequences - or just say 'because it's awesome' and move along.

And may I know how that is related to a serious jump on K's scale?  :rolleyes:

It's all a derivative from Shivan technology, but still doesn't turn the EA into the Shivans. The Sun will not be blown, and no planets will be blown or leveled, either. Extraordinary advancements in terms of building absolutely don't imply comparable advancements in weapons development, with the Punisher being the only (partial) exception to that.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
It's not plausible. All this does is dig your hole deeper. You've invoked the magical breed of nanotechnology to explain how the EA's industrial base expanded to the point where it could complete projects with a mass equivalent to 888 Colossi without significant strain, but failed to handle any of the consequences.

There's nothing in this post which helps render the setting internally consistent again.

A better way to handle this would be to say 'because it's awesome' and move on. You're not in high school, and this isn't a cheerleading team. If someone calls your mod 'Mobimod', who gives a ****? Especially when it was used in a positive manner?

If most of the Inferno team quit in protest of the direction the mod was going, clearly something changed. That doesn't mean the result will be bad, but it does mean that some kind of dramatic transition has occurred.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
Read the previous post, I've just edited it.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
Answers nothing. You still have the problem of an industrial base capable of mass unit productivity at a rate somewhere between a hundred and a thousand times that of the GTVA. The Neumann technology you've invoked creates further problems because it should allow the EA to generate fleets of thousands or millions of ships without any investment at all. Just seed the asteroid belt with a Neumann factory and let it go to work.

Like I said in my very first post on this topic, I'm willing to roll with it. And that's the approach you should take. When I first saw that screenshot I was like 'awesome but impractical, and very cool.' The more we talk about it the less it makes any sense, so I think it'd be best to cut your losses.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
No, no, and no. You're making things up.

First of all, no one here has actually mentioned the thickness of those domes; if you take a look at one of the links I posted, you'd easily realize that you surely don't need colossal domes (in terms of thickness) to complete paraterraforming. If, for example, 100 meters of thickness are sufficient and a load of material can be brought from Earth, things make more sense.

Also, are you aware that building domes and a fleet of juggernauts isn't exactly the same thing? While Nanotech can help a lot sorting materials efficiently, electronics and other similar things require a load of work. There's a tangible difference between those two kinds of construction, and people don't need an explanation to get to it.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
Ah, the old trap of throwing out nanotechnology without understanding it.  :p

See, the reason nanotechnology works is because each neumann can build more neumanns. Which means, by definition, that they can construct complex machines with significant information storage...which means they can build anything used on a FreeSpace warship.

To a nanomachine, a simple dome and a piece of complex electronics are both just an arrangement of molecules, and it will tackle them both with equal fervor. One may take more time than the other, but when you've got this degree of industry...it's not enough to make a difference.

You don't understand how insanely powerful you've made the EA. Read the following carefully.

Placing one - just one - of your nanomachines on the asteroid Pallas, the EA could, probably within the 50-year timespan between FS1 and FS2, construct a Dyson swarm that completely envelops the sun at a distance of 1 AU. The swarm would consist of solar sail satellites, mostly carbon nanotube sail. The EA could then harness the entire energy output of the sun. The GTVA is ****ed; maybe the whole galaxy.

And that's using one asteroid. Seed every asteroid in the Belt and you could do God knows what.

You've accidentally bootstrapped the EA up to Kardashev 1 level. My suggestion is to just not worry about it and go on making a good campaign.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 10:03:29 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
Double post!

Nanotechnology is a hoary old mistress of science fiction, and a lot has been written about it. If you want to pick up a few good books that use nanotech as a central theme, I recommend Ben Bova's Moonrise and Moonwar, which are about the colonization of the moon using realistic nanotech. They are excellent reads and describe the limitations of nanotechnology pretty well.

Further question: does the EA now have immortal citizens?

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
:lol:

I see you're a bit confused here, or perhaps missed the part when I claimed that INF's Nanotechnology is not exactly the same as "modern" Nanotech; yet still, you continue to take the wrong Nanotech as a base for your arguments. The whole thing is much less ambitious and exaggerated than you actually believe, and the great miracles you're continuously mentioning will not be possible.

There won't be juggernauts or exaggerately colossal fleets. The Icanus is the only exception to the rule, and many of the previously unanswered questions about its construction have been explained. If you think the EA is "insanely" powerful now, you have misinterpreted the whole concept.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
I see you're a bit confused here, or perhaps missed the part when I claimed that INF's Nanotechnology is not exactly the same as "modern" Nanotech; yet still, you continue to take the wrong Nanotech as a base for your arguments. The whole thing is much less ambitious and exaggerated than you actually believe, and the great miracles you're continuously mentioning will not be possible.

You're apparently confused, because the 'great miracles I am continuously mentioning' are less significant than doming the moon. Your nanomachines can make material strong enough to house the Moon, ergo they can construct finescale nanotubes for Dyson statites, which are less challenging.

If you can dome the moon, you can swarm the Sun.

Which is it gonna be?

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
They're not any less significant than dooming the Moon in five, long decades. As a slow process, it requires a lot of time and effort to complete and, as I said, reduced thickness doesn't make it as colossal as you pretend it to be.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
They're not any less significant than dooming the Moon in five, long decades. As a slow process, it requires a lot of time and effort to complete and, as I said, reduced thickness doesn't make it as colossal as you pretend it to be.

That's what I told you. If they can dome the moon in five decades, they can swarm the sun in five decades. Possibly less as the swarm may be easier to complete.

Reduced thickness? Past the ten centimeter minimum I used? That was pretty generous.

So again, which is it going to be?

At any point in this discussion you can simply invoke Rule of Cool and I'll be fine with it. You've already said 'it's magic' once.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 10:27:20 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline T-Man

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
Though doming the entire moon is perhaps a far-out concept in realism terms, fifty years is a long time, and i suppose the human race has achieved some amazing things when its put its mind to it; reclaimed land, Great wall of China, Pyramids, teleporting a quark (yes, that has been done :lol:!) etc (Okay they're nowhere near a domed moon but i hope you catch my drift). It sounds like theres a lot to take in here (perhaps a little too much) and it might be confusing people.

I feel it might be wise to wait for INFASA to be released; it might be that information is needed to make sense of it all can't be given out without spoiling the storyline. I certainly agree it sounds like a little crazy (though i've never been a fan of Terraforming anyway; why move to a planet just to turn it into Earth?), but it might seem less so in the final thing. It might still seam crazy even then, but then at least all the information can be discussed openly.

Besides, Covenant had Halo. Niven had Ringworld (i think it was Niven). Ya never know.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
Now what I'd do in your position is put some firm limits on nanotechnology. You've made it a bit magical by suggesting it can do things it probably can't (induce electron capture, for instance), but you can put caps on its industrial potential pretty easily.

Your nanomachines may only work in specially prepared environments, for example. They will probably be imprecise and slow, and require a lot of supervision. They may be able to generate vast amounts of fairly homogeneous material easily, but (for some reason?) have trouble with the tolerances required for precision work.

Remember that nanomachines are basically mechanical cells, with all the weaknesses thereof. Rather than tiny industrious insects, think of them (as I mentioned above) as sperm: slow, weak, and fragile, but with tremendous information storage and effective totipotency.

You may be able to bull**** your way out of this Kardashev trap by tying the nanomachines to a particular environment (an assembler bath or something) or to a support infrastructure like a centrally directed guidance system or a set of chemical or electromagnetic cues.

You could argue that the Lunar terraforming was accomplished by...

...actually I still can't see any way to make sense of it given that you have to move so much mass to get it done. Parking an asteroid in Lunar orbit could do the trick, but then you need to disassemble it and do something meaningful with the results.

Though doming the entire moon is perhaps a far-out concept in realism terms, fifty years is a long time, and i suppose the human race has achieved some amazing things when its put its mind to it; reclaimed land, Great wall of China, Pyramids, teleporting a quark (yes, that has been done :lol:!) etc (Okay they're nowhere near a domed moon but i hope you catch my drift). It sounds like theres a lot to take in here (perhaps a little too much) and it might be confusing people.

It does indeed seem like it has people confused, including the people who thought it up - the issue here is that any civilization which can dome the Moon in 50 years can probably put a Dyson swarm around the sun, since they are comparably difficult.

Quote
Besides, Covenant had Halo. Niven had Ringworld (i think it was Niven). Ya never know.

Indeed, but both Halo and the Ringworld were constructed by advanced civilizations. The problem here is that you have a structure in the same ballpark being built by one of those pissant little FreeSpace civilizations that otherwise behaves very primitively. It's a problem of internal consistency.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 10:34:34 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
That's what I told you. If they can dome the moon in five decades, they can swarm the sun in five decades. Possibly less as the swarm may be easier to complete.

Reduced thickness? Past the ten centimeter minimum I used? That was pretty generous.

So again, which is it going to be?

At any point in this discussion you can simply invoke Rule of Cool and I'll be fine with it. You've already said 'it's magic' once.

Why can't you simply accept the fact that you're wrong, again? You have been wrong in claiming quite a few things recently. This whole thread is a response to your "Mobimod" (wrong, because this is a team effort, not to mention the fact that is was disrespectful), "this is not Inferno" (wrong, because it's incredibly similar to the old continuity) claims. You also complained about many members of the old team being inactive! :eek:

Now, you're pretending the Nanotech you have in mind to be exactly the same as the one that will be used in Inferno. :rolleyes: This was a temporary explanation because, as I said elsewhere, INF SCP and INFA2 are currently on hold. I did not venture further into studying materials to make things more believable, but that will be done later. Consider what you can read above as a temporary solution to complaints, as I can't divert more attention from INFASA and *CLASSIFIED* unless it's strictly needed.


Though doming the entire moon is perhaps a far-out concept in realism terms, fifty years is a long time, and i suppose the human race has achieved some amazing things when its put its mind to it; reclaimed land, Great wall of China, Pyramids, teleporting a quark (yes, that has been done :lol:!) etc (Okay they're nowhere near a domed moon but i hope you catch my drift). It sounds like theres a lot to take in here (perhaps a little too much) and it might be confusing people.

I feel it might be wise to wait for INFASA to be released; it might be that information is needed to make sense of it all can't be given out without spoiling the storyline. I certainly agree it sounds like a little crazy (though i've never been a fan of Terraforming anyway; why move to a planet just to turn it into Earth?), but it might seem less so in the final thing. It might still seam crazy even then, but then at least all the information can be discussed openly.

Besides, Covenant had Halo. Niven had Ringworld (i think it was Niven). Ya never know.

What he said. Just wait until more info is available.

Now what I'd do in your position is put some firm limits on nanotechnology. You've made it a bit magical by suggesting it can do things it probably can't (induce electron capture, for instance), but you can put caps on its industrial potential pretty easily.

Your nanomachines may only work in specially prepared environments, for example. They will probably be imprecise and slow, and require a lot of supervision. They may be able to generate vast amounts of fairly homogeneous material easily, but (for some reason?) have trouble with the tolerances required for precision work.

Remember that nanomachines are basically mechanical cells, with all the weaknesses thereof. Rather than tiny industrious insects, think of them (as I mentioned above) as sperm: slow, weak, and fragile, but with tremendous information storage and effective totipotency.

You may be able to bull**** your way out of this Kardashev trap by tying the nanomachines to a particular environment (an assembler bath or something) or to a support infrastructure like a centrally directed guidance system or a set of chemical or electromagnetic cues.

There already are serious limits to Nanotech, it's just that you don't get it. They can't do everything ---> Venus will not be terraformed, for example. There won't be juggernaut fleets and the EA fleet as a whole, even if fearsome, will not be as exaggerately big as you're claiming.


Speaking of supervision, I planned something about this part almost two years ago (23 months ago, to be more precise). Basically, there are various kinds of Nanites, with some serving as a comm "bridge" between other Nanites and humans providing orders. There also are various classes of materials, all of different quality (I remember S, A, B and C). I will not resume work on this until the time comes, however.

 

Offline T-Man

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
Now what I'd do in your position is put some firm limits on nanotechnology. You've made it a bit magical by suggesting it can do things it probably can't (induce electron capture, for instance), but you can put caps on its industrial potential pretty easily.

Your nanomachines may only work in specially prepared environments, for example. They will probably be imprecise and slow, and require a lot of supervision. They may be able to generate vast amounts of fairly homogeneous material easily, but (for some reason?) have trouble with the tolerances required for precision work.

Remember that nanomachines are basically mechanical cells, with all the weaknesses thereof. Rather than tiny industrious insects, think of them (as I mentioned above) as sperm: slow, weak, and fragile, but with tremendous information storage and effective totipotency.
I feel that's actually quite a wise idea. Perhaps say the Moon's mass/gravity (its weak but there) is required for the machines to work, or perhaps the nanomachines that are being used are primitive compared to the Shivan ones and can only do so much? Star Trek-style nanites arn't very far fetched on their own, and with restrictions such as that it would prevent such things as a huge swarm of juggernaughts.

Please don't take this the wrong way (and i'm saying this to everyone), but remember people can disagree professionally without disagreeing personally. I say this only becuase i fear a lot of people do forget that, and people suffer becuase of it. Ideas are ideas and fiction is fiction; Does it really matter who is right or wrong (i don't know and i don't mind not knowing really, i don't want to be forced to take a side)? I just want to play INFASA or Blue Planet or Vassago's Dirge or BWO, and enjoy the work someone has made. :)
« Last Edit: September 04, 2010, 10:47:27 am by T-Man »
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Offline Mobius

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
As I said, there are many limits already. :nod:

Also, I'd like to say that Battuta forgot to mention agriculture and how INF's Nanotech is perfectly compatible with Botany. Terraforming the Moon isn't a nightmare if you consider the benefits coming from exploitation of its farms and their capacity to support a growing population. Knop's method, which is the first one coming to mind, could be easily used in conjunction with genetic changes to plans to make up for the colossal organization nightmare that terraforming implies.

Speaking of the armor classes I mentioned above, the Nemesis would have an S level armor (ever wondered why superdestroyers, which are 50% longer than destroyers, tend to have eight times the amount of hitpoints destroyers usually have?) while the domes may be of class E or F: meant to be used en masse without caring too much about specific quality.

The player would start with class C and raise during INFA2. Plans for this are probably somewhere on the private boards and/or on paper, and perhaps I'll take a look at them later.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
Why can't you simply accept the fact that you're wrong, again? You have been wrong in claiming quite a few things recently. This whole thread is a response to your "Mobimod" (wrong, because this is a team effort, not to mention the fact that is was disrespectful), "this is not Inferno" (wrong, because it's incredibly similar to the old continuity) claims. You also complained about many members of the old team being inactive! :eek:

You are a lying liar who lies, sir. You have utterly failed to disprove Battuta. Nothing that you posist as disproved here as been disproved either. It is your mod now; it is your story ideas that are driving this discussion. It is not Inferno because there's nobody from the old mod team left, and again, your story ideas are driving the discussion (and also the late INFR1 missions prove they hadn't housed the Moon back then, by the way, which more or less shoots "incredibly similar" in the foot since that's a big ****ing deal and that's what this thread is about). Of the guys who brought us INFR1, who is actually still actively contributing to the project? (I suppose you could argue Woo, but admins can see internals. Several have commented on that thesis as I have been given to understand.)

Now, you're pretending the Nanotech you have in mind to be exactly the same as the one that will be used in Inferno. :rolleyes: This was a temporary explanation because, as I said elsewhere, INF SCP and INFA2 are currently on hold. I did not venture further into studying materials to make things more believable, but that will be done later. Consider what you can read above as a temporary solution to complaints, as I can't divert more attention from INFASA and *CLASSIFIED* unless it's strictly needed.

No, Battuta is in fact saying that any kind of realistic nanotech (I know this a very hard concept to understand apparently, but nanotech has been extensively pondered over the years and we can make very good guesses as to what it will look like) doesn't work under the restrictions you're using. Also, if you know your solution is full crap, you could at least do us the courtesy of admitting it, rather than claiming Battuta is wrong without basis.

Since, you know, you're obliquely admitting the Battman is right.

What he said. Just wait until more info is available.

Man, this WAS your more information. I can't divine why else you posted this thread and I doubt anyone else can either.


There already are serious limits to Nanotech, it's just that you don't get it. They can't do everything ---> Venus will not be terraformed, for example. There won't be juggernaut fleets and the EA fleet as a whole, even if fearsome, will not be as exaggerately big as you're claiming.

Yeah, but you're not getting Battuta, not the other way around. With what your nanotech has already done, there is no reason why you can't have juggernaut fleets. It doesn't even matter to a great extent if you adopt Battuta's limitations on the stuff; you've completely done away with any kind of need for mining or refining raw materials. If you can mass-produce warship-grade armor plating with the minimal effort of nanomachinery, then building more warships naturally follows. If you have the assemblers for this Moon project, that technology just isn't going to go away when it's done. You've given the EA the ability, at the least, to make huge numbers of single-cast ship hulls. This easily frees up the industrial capacity to build them engines and weapons.

Granted such a fleet would be impossible to repair with any kind of efficency, but it doesn't need to be either.
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Offline T-Man

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
Guys, seriously, please, there's no need to get personal with one another.

Does it really matter who is right or wrong (i don't know and i don't mind not knowing really, i don't want to be forced to take a side)
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Offline Mobius

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Re: What you need to know about the new Inferno continuity
Sorry, but I can hardly agree with you, because:

1) I claimed the new continuity is more based on the old one than someone actually believed. I did not say that it's exactly the same, as obviously the Moon wasn't supposed to be terraformed at the time of INFR1;

2) You're still complaining about the inactivity of the original team. People have lives, and after 10 years (because, unless you haven't noticed, INFR1 is 10 years old) people may become inactive. We have seen many admins and countless members becoming inactive, so I don't really understand what you're up to and/or why your argument should stand. Does the fact that the team has changed have anything to do with the quality of the project? Or you prefer to see the mod die because only the old team members should be working on it? :rolleyes:

I think having new blood in a team is always a good thing, and still having Woomeister leading the project is even a better thing;

3) Battuta forgot that Nanotechnology in INF isn't exactly the same as the Nanotech he read of in books and is only partially related to. In fact, he's come out with a lot of statements and assumptions which can be hardly related to what things will work like in Sol.

Unless you pretend a name change to prevent further confusion. :rolleyes:

4) By "more information" I mean that things will be explained later. Do I have to describe you the whole procedure that led to this? Effort is being focused on INFASA, so the whole Nanotech has been to basic levels for quite some time and work won't be resumed on it anytime soon. However, certain posts asked for a clarification so you got this thread as a response.

I can't slow down INFASA just to convince members X and Y that the new continuity is plausible. Better and more detailled descriptions will come later, when needed;

5) No, you don't get it. Repair capacities are a top priority, and it'd be quite pointless to privilege numbers over quality. There won't be juggernaut fleets, period, as they won't give the same benefits of terraforming the Moon. When colossal projects are carried on, those who invest on them expect to have something in return: in Luna's case, extra space for new citizens, immense factories and farms, better alliance and cooperation between Earth and Mars (which have just come out from a war), etc. etc. If terraforming Luna would have led to nothing, it wouldn't have taken place. Many of the reasons behind that will be covered in soon to come campaigns, and of course I can't give out any details now;


Guys, seriously, please, there's no need to get personal with one another.

Does it really matter who is right or wrong (i don't know and i don't mind not knowing really, i don't want to be forced to take a side)

What he said.