[The E]

If you asked RAF Bomber Command in WW2 if they'd sacrifice a dozen Lancasters to bag the Tirpitz they would not have blinked an eye.

There's an earlier link I posted to a video essay about plot holes and how everyone should shut up about them. One of its points is that, all too often, people slap the plot hole marker on something that the film explains but that they somehow missed (See also: CinemaSins, who do this constantly). In this case, it is explained that these bombers are quite irreplaceable assets; Losing them in exchange for a single Dreadnought, while definitely a tactical victory, could very well be a strategic loss (it doesn't end up being one, but neither Leia, nor Poe, nor Holdo know this).

[StarSlayer]

They were irreplaceable because the writer needed the dumb B-17 sequence to have gravitas so they put in a throw away line.  Events would prove that the Resistance was never going to make a better trade, undermining Poe making bad decisions.  On the other hand Poe decimating their snubfighter wing trying to bag the Dreadnought would have had a tangible consequence when Kylo decapitated Resistance leadership.   

Also is there some sort of litmus test when I can and cannot care about the plot?  Is it only specific films or were croberts' Space Depth Charges in Wing Commander actually great and Michael Bay films masterpieces and I just needed to shut up and stop being pedantic?

[The E]

They were irreplaceable because the writer needed the dumb B-17 sequence to have gravitas so they put in a throw away line.

This is what I would call "not a criticism". Because once you break it down like that, literally every single thing in every story ever is there "because the writer needed that bit".

You can either argue from a Watsonian or a Doylean perspective, not both at once. From a Watsonian POV, the sequence shows that a) Poe is a reckless thrillseeker whose saving grace is that he's got the skills to back up his bravado, b) that he utterly lacks strategic perspective, c) that, as a result, Poe trades valuable assets for a single replaceable one.
From a Doylean POV, the sequence establishes Poe's character arc, sets up Rose, sets up the dysfunctionality of the First Order as a military force (specifically, Hux' failures as a leader), and creates the initial setup from which the rest of the plot moves forward on.

You can absolutely argue that there were better ways to set up this thing or that, or better ways to execute a concept. But once you go "No, this sequence exists only because the writer needed it to", you absolutely do need to come up with more substantial arguments, because at that point, you do not have anything.

[BlueFlames]

This story only exists because a writer wanted to write a story!  HARUMPH!

[Colonol Dekker]

I liked wing commanders dumb space depth charges :/

[Grizzly]

I liked wing commanders dumb space depth charges :/

I liked Wing Commander for all it's dumbness!

(Except Hobbes's betrayal and "Sleeper agent" stuff, that can go die in a fire)

[StarSlayer]

Sorry I should have expanded:

It's tell don't show, while the tangible evidence points to sending them in being the right call.  They did this big ole Memphis Belle sequence and now they need to sell that Poe screwed the pooch, have Leia tell him he did wrong and leave it at that.

The alternative with snubbies has a clear consequence, Poe bagged the Dread but now there is no CAP and Leia gets blown out into space.  If you are totally attached to Space B-17s, have them blow up a couple regular Star Destroyers just to have the rest of the fleet show up and make it pointless Pyrrhic victory. 

Instead they took out a very high value target, which they likely would have had to address during the Space Chase, for the cost of some tactically inflexible bombers.  There is no obvious point in the film were they could have been better employed, in the end nearly all the Resistance personnel and equipment were lost(in a risky plan) without contributing anything.  Plus those cartoonish military industrialists on Space Vegas would probably be happy to sell them some new irreplaceable Space B-17s.

While I suppose I could shift the blame for dumb decisions from the writers to the characters being inept and write off the plot issues as being pedantic, my initial gut reaction when I saw it (and I went in cold without hype) was a good film with potential for being great except for some frustrating bloat and half baked ideas.

Hell, maybe I am just being unfair, the last film I saw at the IMAX before TLJ was 2049 and I was conditioned into thinking really really hard about what I was watching. 

Strike the above.  We're getting locked into rebuttle roulette and I just don't care enough about this film to keep stoking the debate furnace around it.

You thought it was great, I thought the blade showed promise but needed a lot more tempering.  Fair enough.

I concede the field.

[General Battuta]

I’ll just say that while Starslayer makes good points it’s ALSO worth noting that during the film’s opening they have no idea the First Order can track their jumps.

Given that missing info, Leia’s orders make perfect sense. There is no reason to commit anything at all when they can run and fight another day. Only once it’s clear the FO can follow them 33-style does the Dreadnaught’s death matter.

[Det. Bullock]

I liked wing commanders dumb space depth charges :/

I liked Wing Commander for all it's dumbness!

(Except Hobbes's betrayal and "Sleeper agent" stuff, that can go die in a fire)

I was fine with it at the first playthrough of the series then througly disliked at the second, probably because that time I went directly from 2 and expansions to 3 and that made it much more jarring.
It was also fresh in my memory that the Fedration in 2 had Kilrathi citizens, no word of it in 3.

There's also the "Luke almost kills Ben and he fights back moment", which was subpar-ly written for me.

The way to tell the story from Luke's point of view is still unsympathetic towards him, and drives the point home that he is still very much a freaked-out moron that behaves like a 20 year old scared little **** every time the DARK SIDE turns up. It needed more. I'll give you an example of what I have in mind, despite the fact that I'm not a writer, and I'd be a terrible one.

Imagine he tells Rey his side of the story.

LUKE: It wasn't like that at all. One night, I suddenly woke up feeling a tremendous power in the camp. A dark power.

Then you see what he's telling. A student (youngling?) comes up to him with both his hands on his throat, while he is still getting out of bed. He was being choked up by an invisible force. Luke frees him, and sits him on a rock or something, comforts him hearwarmingly in a second and quickly gets his light saber and walks out of his hut, hand out in search for the source of this great dark power, scared and enraged for his students.

REY: Snoke!
LUKE: (nods)

First, he goes to a hut where he knows most of his students lie. They're alright. Then he goes for the dark side. He gets to another hut, light saber turned on in hand, opens the door and only finds someone lying down, covered in a mantle. The hut is filled with Dark Force "magic" (how you'd convey this on the screen is up to good writers and screenwriters, not me). He tensely goes to it, only to see Ben's face. With horror and surprise, he is taken aback, and then Ben wakes up and defends himself with all his might.

Now, this rendition is not perfect. But I'd argue would be better. Again, like previous posts have said, TLJ would much improve for this sort of small rewritings that would still maintain the intentions and structure and themes and whatnots, but make the audience go with you.

It's more convoluted and some of the simmetry between the two versions would be lost.

[Luis Dias]

Yeah but at least you would convince half of the audience they'd also behave like Luke did. As it is, you sacrifice empathizing with Luke's behavior for "symmetry". Which, you know, I value a lot. It's my field, I work with that very concept every ****ing day. But form comes in service of function, not the other way around.

[General Battuta]

Touching your sleeping student and seeing all the atrocities he’s gonna commit as the next Vader would make me reach for my lightsaber.

[Woolie Wool]

I have always felt strange looking at the controversy over the new Star Wars movies because I don't like any of them (except Rogue One, which I liked mostly for how it wasn't a "normal" Star Wars movie and didn't do "normal" Star Wars things, even in a self-aware ironic way like TLJ), but because I never really got passionate about Star Wars as a kid (Babylon 5 was much more my thing, though JMS' extreme archness has made B5 an increasingly difficult watch as I've gotten older). So I'm in the simultaneous position of being unable to relate to the new Star Wars movie and even more unable to relate to the people who hate it. I'd say the one thing that bugged me the most was the Poe/Holdo conflict just because it seemed to rely on both Holdo and Poe (but especially Poe, who seems to be carrying a solid neutronium Idiot Ball) being unreasonable jackasses to each other. And if the movie is actively trying to make me resent Holdo before she pulls off her big heroic exit then that makes it all the more irritating.

Well that and the First Order. Perhaps there is something to be said for not making them as Evil is Cool as the Empire, but not for making them Keystone Kops with Star Destroyers. I don't find real-life fascists funny and they (E: the fash, not the First Order, who probably have too many dreadnoughts for their own good) don't even have a dreadnought. The First Order are so dopey, so silly, and so ludicrous that I cannot even enjoy hating them. Personally I would have been happier with the New Republic being the bad guys, having slowly but inexorably calcified into an Empire-like regime, but if the fanboys cannot handle women Jedi and black stormtroopers then they're certainly not ready for the political implications of that.

[StarSlayer]

Wait what's a matter with black storm troopers?  I thought they were super cool:



I would low key dig it if after all the attrition endured in TLJ that IX has both sides crippled beyond repair.  I know that despite their compound ineptness the First Order will probably be in control of everything and stacked with super weapons (that can be destroyed by snubbies) but I'd get a kick if it was just a pair of tottering half dead boxers ineffectively flailing at one another.

Also, regardless of your opinion of TLJ, I think its safe to say whoever came up with the name MG-100 StarFortress SF-17 needs to be cuffed.

[Woolie Wool]

Wait what's a matter with black storm troopers?  I thought they were super cool:

Don't be obtuse. You know I'm talking about Finn and John Boyega, and fanboys' racist animus against them.

[Colonol Dekker]

His Google adverts are crap though.


I don't actually feel that the First Order are as threatening and imposing as the Empire.   Remember the opening scene of the Force Awakens, with the dropship assault, that would've achieved a lot more at the end of TFA than slow walking beam tank stuff.

[mjn.mixael]

Oh c'mon... Is that going to be the defense from now on? Cinema Sins is the big bad wolf that causes everyone to have your favorite movie?

I agree that Cinema Sins is really the most useless YouTube channel. That doesn't mean I or anyone else can't have issues with specific plot errors/wierdness/dumbness.

[Snarks]

I assume when someone uses the "Cinema Sins" type label, they mean the use of videos of that type to make arguments, not that Cinema Sins itself is bad. I went out and watch a few Cinema Sins videos, and it seems pretty obvious that the presenter is making the video for purposes of entertainment, with intentionally superficial critiques. Using Cinema Sins in the context of movie discussion is like using political satire as a source in a political discussion.

[Det. Bullock]

I assume when someone uses the "Cinema Sins" type label, they mean the use of videos of that type to make arguments, not that Cinema Sins itself is bad. I went out and watch a few Cinema Sins videos, and it seems pretty obvious that the presenter is making the video for purposes of entertainment, with intentionally superficial critiques. Using Cinema Sins in the context of movie discussion is like using political satire as a source in a political discussion.

He does, but he genuinely believes in a lot of stuff said in them, there was a video in which they confronted his out-of-character Vlogs with his CinemaSins videos and, well, the guy doesn't really seem to pay attention to the movies he watches.

Yeah but at least you would convince half of the audience they'd also behave like Luke did. As it is, you sacrifice empathizing with Luke's behavior for "symmetry". Which, you know, I value a lot. It's my field, I work with that very concept every ****ing day. But form comes in service of function, not the other way around.

There is also the point I don't think we are fully expected to sympathize with Luke, remember that the movie itself maintain that he made a mistake however well-intentioned.

[TrashMan]

You thought it was great, I thought the blade showed promise but needed a lot more tempering.  Fair enough.

Persoanlly, I thought i was a flaming, stinking turd the likes of which is seen once in a millenia.

Nothing in the NuStarWars makes any damn sense. Not the First Order, not the stupidity and incompetence of everyone involved, not the pointelss side-stories.
The First Orders unbeliavable amount of assets that they keep pulling out of the ass and their total miss-use, the retardation of the "resistance" and the entire story revolving this conflict.
Why call yourself the resistance when you are the governing power in the sector?
Where did all your ships and fleets go? With the victory of the rebellion, the balance of power switched. It is the new republic (resistance) that now holds the core world and most industry, yet the Firs Order pumps out more superweapons with less resources than Palpatine had, while the "rebellion" has nothing.. except the most retarded bombers in existence.
How the frak did the republic intel miss a PLANET-sized superweapon?
Why the hell would Finn crumble so fast when he's supposed to be trained and brainwashed from youth? His squadmates would be individuals he trained with for years and has the strongest bond - in fact, they would be the only family he know.
Stealth scans? Why do you need a special stealh scan? Why not always stealth scan?
Why not use stealth shuttles to evacuate the crew?
Why?
Why?

Every time I try to think about the new movies he sheer stupidity just becomes more and more obvious.
A million question and no answers that make even a lick of sense.

[BlueFlames]

Persoanlly, I thought i was a flaming, stinking turd the likes of which is seen once in a millenia.

Sometimes you just need to save a line for posterity.