Author Topic: Gender blindness (Read 18835 times)

Black Wolf · **Reply #20 on:** October 09, 2010, 11:26:56 am

They also establish this "Sir for everyone" rule in Ep. 1 of Voyager, so it's not just military sci fi.

General Battuta · **Reply #21 on:** October 09, 2010, 11:30:27 am

Quote from: Black Wolf on October 09, 2010, 11:26:56 am

They also establish this "Sir for everyone" rule in Ep. 1 of Voyager, so it's not just military sci fi.

Huh weird. Did all of Trek do it?

Black Wolf · **Reply #22 on:** October 09, 2010, 12:30:31 pm

Apparently:

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Sir#Sir

Colonol Dekker · **Reply #23 on:** October 09, 2010, 02:00:35 pm

Well Trek is equally flawed then. Sir is derived from Sire hence it's attachment as a title to Knights of the realm and by evolution of English society and military- it's officers. Sire by it's definition of action is "to father" is a male facet.

Sir, Ma'am. They both carry equal weight as titles when applied to respect towards a rank. I see no logical reason for trek or beeesgee to completely foul up such a simple use of language.

General Battuta · **Reply #24 on:** October 09, 2010, 02:03:32 pm

Quote from: Dekker on October 09, 2010, 02:00:35 pm

Sir, Ma'am. They both carry equal weight as titles when applied to respect towards a rank. I see no logical reason for trek or beeesgee to completely foul up such a simple use of language.

Because Sir has a history as a term of military respect and female officers presumably should be granted the same respect. Ma'am carries connotations of femininity, which in turn connotes weakness and submission.

MR_T3D · **Reply #25 on:** October 09, 2010, 02:55:44 pm

hey, we're talking about people whom don't believe in right angles, so i think its understandable their military verbatim is different.

Browncoat Mal · **Reply #26 on:** October 09, 2010, 03:12:20 pm

The sir-> sire -> male line of reasoning is flawed. 'Sir' isn't from 'sire' in the 'to-father' sense, it's the last in a long line of mutations of the Latin root, which is just an honorific adjective given to an elder/respected person.

Also, the equivalent of 'Sir' with respect to the knighted aspect is 'Dame', not 'ma'am'.

'Ma'am' and 'Madame' are strictly societal, coming from the origins for 'my lady'.

With that in mind, I can see how 'sir' would be used (for all genders) as a title of respect and rank in military, with 'sir' denoting seniority/higher rank.

'Ma'am' has no such connotations- and to suggest that it will 'stick' simply because it's been around for a while is lunacy. 'Thou' was around for hundreds of years and used in some of the English languages most stunning works, and yet who still uses it today?

Colonol Dekker · **Reply #27 on:** October 09, 2010, 03:21:13 pm

Major, Captain, Corporal and Sergeant and others have been used for THOUSANDS of years. They're still in common use. Regardless of anyones opinion, my own included. Sir and Ma'am are integral to Military doctrine and everyday use. All serving, Ex serving, relatives, etc will appreciate this fact. It will not change. It will continue.

General Battuta · **Reply #28 on:** October 09, 2010, 03:22:05 pm

Quote from: Dekker on October 09, 2010, 03:21:13 pm

Major, Captain, Corporal and Sergeant and others have been used for THOUSANDS of years. They're still in common use. Regardless of anyones opinion, my own included. Sir and Ma'am are integral to Military doctrine and everyday use. All serving, Ex serving, relatives, etc will appreciate this fact. It will not change. It will continue.

But uh BSG isn't necessarily in the future.

Colonol Dekker · **Reply #29 on:** October 09, 2010, 03:32:24 pm

No. They're in the 80's.

I don't really mind either way. I'm more at a disagreement with the production team for being spartan towards recognition of the appropriate salutation.

Browncoat Mal · **Reply #30 on:** October 09, 2010, 03:49:03 pm

All due respect, Dekker, but WHERE do you get these terms being used for THOUSANDS of years?!

Last I checked, the Romans had centurions, pilus priors, primus pilus, tribunes, and the like.

These words trace their origins (disregarding Latin roots that had NO military usage) at most back a thousand years- and even then, they were NOT used in a military context. In that regard, they are at most hundreds of years old.

To say that NOTHING will change is to disregard the entirety of military history, which has shown nothing BUT the fact that the armed forces of the world will continue to evolve, adapt, and change and will come up with new terms, ranks, and forms of address to do so. To insist that just because a certain way particular to a particular time and region/language will last simply because it is what you identify with is ridiculous.

The dev team is, as far as I know, creating a work of fiction based off of a work of fiction- not a perfect replica of what you consider 'appropriate' military protocol.

newman · **Reply #31 on:** October 09, 2010, 03:54:04 pm

If this is the sort of thing you're wondering about when watching this show then perhaps this show isn't for you.

Colonol Dekker · **Reply #32 on:** October 09, 2010, 04:46:41 pm

I'm a bit surprised that none of the other military heads on HLP aren't as addled by it as I am.

In any case I've expressed my point. There's nothing more to it. Aside from that issue i'm enjoying the show. Is there a name for the mini-series or is it just a pilot?

The E · **Reply #33 on:** October 09, 2010, 04:57:56 pm

It's just "The Miniseries".

newman · **Reply #34 on:** October 09, 2010, 05:21:08 pm

The mini-series is really the stuff you should have seen first - it remains as some of the best of bsg ever filmed to date, and is the start of the show. The first episode, season 1 episode 1 called "Water" comes right after that.

The E · **Reply #35 on:** October 09, 2010, 05:24:20 pm

S01E01 was "33". You're still correct, though.

newman · **Reply #36 on:** October 09, 2010, 05:56:06 pm

Right, I meant 33. My mistake.

Colonol Dekker · **Reply #37 on:** October 09, 2010, 06:42:26 pm

I'm on S1E11 at this very second.

I'm bored of the president now, it's all about Tighs wife. Lol.

Dilmah G · **Reply #38 on:** October 09, 2010, 10:22:15 pm

Quote from: Dekker on October 09, 2010, 04:46:41 pm

I'm a bit surprised that none of the other military heads on HLP aren't as addled by it as I am.

Well I was for some time with its use in WiH, but I never saw much of BSG and thus never had the chance to get up in arms over it.

General Battuta · **Reply #39 on:** October 09, 2010, 10:29:03 pm

Quote from: Dilmah G on October 09, 2010, 10:22:15 pm

Quote from: Dekker on October 09, 2010, 04:46:41 pm
I'm a bit surprised that none of the other military heads on HLP aren't as addled by it as I am.
Well I was for some time with its use in WiH, but I never saw much of BSG and thus never had the chance to get up in arms over it.

Yeah for those of us who grew up on stuff like Trek it feels weirder the other way.

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Author Topic: Gender blindness (Read 18835 times)

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