Author Topic: Episodic content question.  (Read 5866 times)

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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Episodic content question.
Will subsequent releases be dependant on prior versions or will they be able to operate independently? Obviously it'll save install space etc. . . .
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

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Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Episodic content question.
This is a question we've talked about previously amongst the team. It is actually a rather big problem (It was the main reason to do a single big release rather than multiple episodic releases). If you look at TBP you'll soon see the problems associated with doing multiple releases (Which eventually led to them making a final release and saying that it wouldn't be updated any further).

The way I see it, we have several options.

1) Release a single monolithic download for each release containing all of the new stuff along with all of the previous releases.
Advantages: Support is easy. We can easily check the version number to know exactly what files people are playing with.
Disadvantages: Ridiculously large bandwidth usage. By the time R4 comes out the game could easily be a gigabyte or more in size. Forcing people to download something that size is going to have an effect on the number of people who can play and is especially stupid if only a percentage of the download is actually new while the rest is the interface, ships and voice for R1 to 3, etc that the user may already have.

2) Separate "Patch" releases for R1.
Advantages: Much smaller downloads.
Disadvantages: Can easily become support hell. By R4 users will need to separately download R1 to R4 and install them (in the correct order) in order to have all the files they need in order to play the game. That's very annoying for the end user but more importantly increases the risk that someone will miss one of the downloads out. Furthermore later releases can very easily break missions from earlier release (especially 3rd party ones since the team won't be responsible for making sure that they work in the new release),

3) Online installer
Advantages: Can make things a lot easier for the end user
Disadvantages: Not everyone downloads on the same machine that they play on.

4) Completely separate releases
Advantages: No danger of later releases screwing up earlier ones
Disadvantages: No danger of later releases fixing problems with earlier ones either. If we keep R1 and R2 as completely separate games that would mean that any problems with R1 are still around being reported 2-3 years later, long after Diaspora or the SCP has fixed the issue. In addition you get 3rd party support hell with people installing R1 based campaigns on R4 and then wondering why they don't work.

5) Multiple release methods.
Advantages: Users can pick which download method suits them
Disadvantages: Makes support harder (different users will have different configurations). The more options you have the larger the chance that you'll stuff one of them up completely. Doesn't actually solve the disadvantages of the other methods so much as make the team have to deal with all of them. :)


Anyway that's what comes to mind so far. This isn't really going to be a huge issue for R1 so we can make the final decision when R2 is being worked on.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Episodic content question.
That covers most bases. :) i'm partial to patch updates. As long as i read the Readme there's very little reason for things to go wrong.
 
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Episodic content question.
Spend 3 months watching Lobo in the support forum and then try telling me that again with a straight face.
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Offline Colonol Dekker

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Re: Episodic content question.
I forgot to add stifled chuckle tags again. . .didn't i :nervous:
Campaigns I've added my distinctiveness to-
- Blue Planet: Battle Captains
-Battle of Neptune
-Between the Ashes 2
-Blue planet: Age of Aquarius
-FOTG?
-Inferno R1
-Ribos: The aftermath / -Retreat from Deneb
-Sol: A History
-TBP EACW teaser
-Earth Brakiri war
-TBP Fortune Hunters (I think?)
-TBP Relic
-Trancsend (Possibly?)
-Uncharted Territory
-Vassagos Dirge
-War Machine
(Others lost to the mists of time and no discernible audit trail)

Your friendly Orestes tactical controller.

Secret bomb God.
That one time I got permabanned and got to read who was being bitxhy about me :p....
GO GO DEKKER RANGERSSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
President of the Scooby Doo Model Appreciation Society
The only good Zod is a dead Zod
NEWGROUNDS COMEDY GOLD, UPDATED DAILY
http://badges.steamprofile.com/profile/default/steam/76561198011784807.png

 

Offline Fish

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Re: Episodic content question.
Could a web updater be made that is offline-ready?

Something with a big friendly interface showing a timeline of the 5 steps or whatever along the side, that makes it simple to do the following for you:

1) Tell you that you need R1 installed, and an internet connection available, but they don't need to be on the same computer. Tell you to run this first on the computer with Diaspora installed, via a USB key or in its own folder.

2) Choose the 'Diaspora' installation folder. This then scans your installation folder for a version number embedded somewhere, and whatever other relevant info, and generates a log file.

3) Connect to internet, rather than assuming a connection. Reassure the user that the program can be closed at this point and restarted on the downloading computer. Once connected, the updater checks for an update to itself, reassures the user if it needs to do so, then the relevant files are downloaded. Possibly in some kind of format that keeps the user from meddling with them, like a .vp? Or at least into a sensibly-labelled folder with clear instructions that the files don't need to be moved about manually.

4) Reassure user that the download is successful (or if not, why not, and what to do) and that the updater should now be run again on the gaming computer. Updater realises it contains newer files than the installed version, and intelligently updates them. Confirmation that all went well, or otherwise.

5) Ask if the user would like to archive this patch, so the updater can access the files later. Ask the user if the 'temp' folder of downloaded files can now be deleted (to signify completion), or kept for updating more computers, etc.

This would combine the 'let me handle that for you' aspect of the online updater with the solution to its main drawback.

It relies on several checking steps, with helpful information presented to the user. Reassuring them when it worked as intended is good. Telling them what didn't work, why, and what to do next is even better. It should use internal standards that are adhered to for future releases (or at the very least, it should check for an update to itself, using a standard that NEVER changes). It should be cross-platform, if at all possible. Giving the user the option to backup old releases via this tool and then restore them may also be handy. Have someone with very strong English skills do a sanity check on all text in the program.

Does that sound sensible? Possible?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2008, 03:24:04 pm by Fish »
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Offline Ramjet

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Re: Episodic content question.
I'm not sure if this is a smart or dumb suggestion which has been discussed a thousand times....

...But doesn't Steam have a auto-patch/update and logging system which is well developed. Is it possible to make enquiries into making the releases on Steam thus utilizing a tried and tested updating system and exposing the game to a MASSIVE player market?

Like i say.... may be dumb and I'm sure there's probably technical reasons why it wouldn't work... but I felt worth suggesting... :)

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Episodic content question.
We'll use Steam after I'm dead and buried.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: Episodic content question.
*wishes Karajorma ETERNAL life*

 

Offline Ramjet

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Re: Episodic content question.
 :lol:  fair cop I suppose  :lol:


 

Offline Vidmaster

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Re: Episodic content question.
We'll use Steam after I'm dead and buried.

good man!  :yes:
Everything that checks and records your activities and spies on your hard-drive, that forces you to be online to play a game you legally own, that actually makes your CD useless and that could be shut down some day (effectively killing ability to legally play your own game) HAS TO FACE OUR BOYCOTT!

Why the hell has Half-Life 2 be so good? (still, there is this nice trick called Offline-Mode)
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Does crazy Software Engineering for a living, until he finally musters the courage to start building games for real. Might never happen.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Episodic content question.
Those are the main reasons I don't like Steam. That said my reasons for not liking it for us are rather different and are all to do with the fact that it's PC only, would require us to jump through significant hoops for each release, would make it hard for us to update/patch the files if we spotted a mistake and a whole myriad of other problems.

And that's before we start considering what :v: and Universal think of the idea.
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Offline terran_emperor

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Re: Episodic content question.
*wishes Karajorma ETERNAL life*

Immortality? You must really hate him to wish that upon him :lol: ...but that philosophical discussion has no place in this thread.

I like the patch/update idea.

An installer, whilst a nice idea, might be a bit difficult. Ive no idea the mechanics (or coding or whatever) that go into making one, but imagine that it is difficult without knowing how many releases there are going to be
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Offline Angelus

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Re: Episodic content question.
*wishes Karajorma ETERNAL life*

Immortality? You must really hate him to wish that upon him :lol: ...but that philosophical discussion has no place in this thread.


Nope. I don't like Steam for the reasons Vidmaster posted above, among other things.

About the immortality-thingy:

imagine the FS2 community would still exist in the centuries to come, and Karajorma would still be around to answer questions on how to FRED.  :D

back on topic...

Whatever system the DEVs will use in the end, it will be fine for me.

 

Offline MetalDestroyer

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Re: Episodic content question.
Do you have any estimation about the lifespan of each episodic release ? Not in terms of the numbers of missions in it, but more about the average time we have to consume each episode ?

Would be like BTRL where we can finish the demo in 20-30 minutes or it will be greater like 2 hours of gameplay (cf Prey demo :D ).

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Episodic content question.
It should be longer than the BtRL demo even for experienced FS2/BtRL players as we've got more missions. Won't know how much longer until the FREDders are done though.
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Offline Deckard

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Re: Episodic content question.

( ... )

3) Online installer
Advantages: Can make things a lot easier for the end user
Disadvantages: Not everyone downloads on the same machine that they play on.

( ... )


The installer could locally store every installation chunk it downloads on the client's machine. Putting all of them into an easy to manage tree of local folders. If the end-user can choose between deleting the "cached" files or not, then he could copy every chunk he needs for other machines he runs out there.

-------------------------------
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Episodic content question.
That's ridiculously overcomplicated considering you could just copy the Diaspora folder. The problem I was on about is that many people download on a machine they don't have admin rights for and therefore can't run the downloaded exe file without their school/business/whatever firewall pitching a fit about it.
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Re: Episodic content question.
Have you guys thought about using JSGME. I play games like IL2 and Silent Hunter 3/4 and JSGME isessential in installing mods. Maybe you guys could use the program to release each episode, and all the user needs to do is download the file, open JSGME and add the episode to the list.
http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/software/products-jsgme.html

 

Offline odo2063

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Re: Episodic content question.
Have you guys thought about using JSGME. I play games like IL2 and Silent Hunter 3/4 and JSGME isessential in installing mods. Maybe you guys could use the program to release each episode, and all the user needs to do is download the file, open JSGME and add the episode to the list.
http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/software/products-jsgme.html

Did you thought the mac and *nix users?