Hard Light Productions Forums
Community Projects => The FreeSpace Upgrade Project => Topic started by: Trivial Psychic on August 14, 2018, 01:42:27 pm
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I know this will invariably result in the why-don't-you-just-use-Knossos reply, but I think you should include a mod ini file and bmp image files to go along with the root VM file. It gives you a chance to include a new mod image.
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I know this will invariably result in the why-don't-you-just-use-Knossos reply, but I think you should include a mod ini file and bmp image files to go along with the root VM file. It gives you a chance to include a new mod image.
I am actually for that, too, because i do not stick totally to Knossos and see it problematic if the whole community would do.
I would prefer an official foldername on this way, too, because that make it easier for manual installations, because you have an official folder name you can use in the mod.ini like in every other version.
Currently you would have to say "yes, actually you have to edit the mod.ini for that"... or "MediaVPs 3.8.1 have to be in a folder called MVP381" or something like that.
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HLP is moving to Knossos.
My current opinion on the matter is that it you're advanced enough to be dealing with manual installs, you're advanced enough to make your own mod.ini.
I'm also willing to have my mind changed by a strong enough argument.
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Considering that the Knossos gives critical error to many who try to update their MediaVP I would say the manual install should be made easy within reason.
Once the Knossos is out of beta you can start ignoring manual installers.
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Now that I'm awake let me add the following before I respond to hirmulolio...
There is still no mod that I've seen updated to use MediaVPs 3.8. Any mod release before yesterday should be using 2014 and there's already a standardized folder for that. I will say again that users should not be arbitrarily forcing mods to use the new MediaVPs version. (PIe and I have been updating popular older mods and putting them on Knossos and will update them to use 3.8 in the coming weeks. If there's a mod not on Knossos and you aren't sure how to do it, let us know.)
Any mod updated to use 3.8 should probably be released on Knossos anyway. Manual installs and the older (in most cases no longer developed) launchers are archaic compared to the ease of Knossos. We're already directing new players to Knossos. Additionally, I've been using Knossos as part of my development (with SVN attached) of both BtA and MediaVPs. It has a few extra steps.. I wouldn't say it's easier, but it is better by forcing me to think about packages, mod details/metadata, dependencies by version instead of by title... at the tradeoff of a very, very convenient distribution platform (for free!).
Here's one other reason that I've thought through. With Knossos making distribution very simple, I intend for the MediaVPs to get more regular updates (quarterly?) in addition to off-the-cuff patching for minor issues. It will be minor revisions (3.8.x) for bugfixes, mid revisions for new features (3.x.x), major revisions that have serious backwards compatibility considerations (x.x.x). New ship models could easily go in a 3.9 for example. With this in mind, how long would I have to keep making mod.inis for mods that still refuse to take advantage of Knossos? (This is as good a place as any to note that the number of new mod releases is very low these days.)
Lastly, you may call it anti-trust if you want (since I helped develop Knossos) but if MediaVPs 3.8 being a Knossos exclusive forces more of the community to get on board, then I consider that a strong partnership. :p
EDIT: Oh, and I can't just "include a mod.ini and standard install folder" with the individual files because I let Knossos handle creating those when I released the mod. It would require a separate download here just for all that. Which creates a lot of work and potentially all kinds of different checksums reported by FSO making debuging difficult.
OK, hirmuolio... I still disagree. The bug is unfortunate, but it is the first time that has happened since we started getting mods up on Knossos. I'm not going to completely change the way I want to release mods because of a single bug. That bug, also has a very easy work around. Instead of clicking Update on the Home tab of Knossos, go to Explore and click Install for the MediaVPs. Ngld will have a proper fix out soon, Knossos will self update, and we can go on our merry way.
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Actually, fine. Here's the compromise for you archaic individuals. I've added a file you can download in the release post that contains a folder and a basic mod.ini. Install that and then install the packages. I am not, however, going to use my time making images or other metadata for older launchers. I will also not be repackaging the downloads to make sure they install into the correct folder like we've done in the past. Manual installs are for advanced users and/or people who refuse progress.
Manual installs also void the warranty and I will not support or debug them because they make it highly likely you won't keep up with the version patches or that there will be installation mistakes.
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As long as you tell us archaic individuals when and what (which files) you update, everything is OK for me. :D I just deleted the old MVPs and extracted the new ones into the same folder, so I don't know where the problem is.
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Minor update notifications are on Knossos or discord via Knossos. Essentially, I refuse to duplicate my work for a handful of people.
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I don't mind if non-Knossos isn't supported anymore; I know how to get the files. But not being told anymore when something is updated... I mean every mod-dev atleast says "I updated the files"...
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(https://i.imgflip.com/2fv5i6.jpg)
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For some of us, it's not that we are archaic or refuse to accept the future which is Knossos; it is that we choose not to be beta testers and we prefer to have something that works with what we already have. I will switch to Knossos someday, but today is not that day.
Maybe Saturday, though.
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*snip*
:sigh:
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Thank you for releasing a mod.ini for this in the release thread.
Minor question: how does one get the picture for this that's on the 'highlights' link?
I'm using the most recent version of wxlauncher and in the list it shows the stock image for these mediavps.
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Here, you can have this version. It's a bit squashed and downscaled to fit 255x122. Just add image255x112 = FSU-MVP.bmp; after modname in your mod.ini
Nevermind, imgur just uploads a png and HLP doesn't support .bmp extensions. So just grab https://fsnebula.global.ssl.fastly.net/storage/20/cf/205ecefff5f8b9da7420d795b208d679207ee75917ebbfd74182eec0137e.png from nebula and convert and downscale it yourself in paint or whatever.
Just click on it and save the image, then rename it to FSU-MVP.bmp. Or you can do the same thing with the highlights image and then downscale it yourself.
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Not gonna lie, Knossos as is runs far more smoothly than wxlauncher did, at least for me. Only downside is that TVWP isn't listed, but practically every other campaign I've played has run perfectly the first time on Knossos in contrast to having issues on wxlauncher.
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Oh yeah. I still have a tab open to tvwp with intention to get it on Knossos.
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I'm just wondering how Knossos even works. I followed the wizard and it made a folder with "bin", "temp", and "FS2" inside it. Now what? What do I run? Should I install wxLauncher? Where can I install it?
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Knossos is both launcher and installer, you don't need wxLauncher. Support here: https://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=94068
This topic has been reserved for... complains :D
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I've been asked to put MVPs 3.8.x on the FSO Installer, so I will do so. It will take a couple of days, and safety is not guaranteed.
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Okay, 3.8 is now on the FSO Installer.
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Thank you Goober.
One thing I noticed in the 3.8 release thread for the new mediavps is that there was an option for "MV_Advanced", but I looked on the Installer and that option isn't there. Did you integrate that optional download into the 3.8.x download on the Installer?
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It's not an available package in the Knossos version. I presume the FSU team merged it into the standard packages.
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That's weird... it shows up on my end and it's listed in the manual download links (https://fsnebula.org/mod/MVPS).
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...You're right. That's odd.
Hmm. I suspect what happened is that my local mod.json doesn't keep track of the packages I didn't download. I'll have to edit the Installer file to add the rest.
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Two other files I noticed in the manual download list that weren't on the Installer were:
"MV_Animglows"
"MV_RadarIcons"
Also, would it be safe to assume that the "Assets" download in the Installer combines the four asset files in the manual download list (Assets, _S, _T, and _V)?
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@Goober5000: The local mod.json files only list the installed packages. This is by design since that file is only supposed to reference stuff that's locally available.
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Okay, everything should be available now. And yes, the MV_Assets selection in the FSO Installer includes the _T, _V, and _S packages.
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I can admit that Knossos is a nice system. It seems to work pretty well. BUT... it's all the eggs in a single basket - what kind of bothers me about it is the nature of it being THE centralized repository of all things FreeSpace. The fact that it is meant to entirely preempt the old decentralized system of download and store on your own is bothersome. NJN.Mixael himself stated that it is his goal to eliminate all other forms of distribution, because that is the way the project is headed.
What if something catastrophic happens, and the server(s) it runs off of are lost? What if there is a cease-and-desist legal wrangle targeting Knossos? What if the guy(s) that manage it decide they want to just take their toys and go home? What if ($Deity forbid) they unexpectedly DIE?
The Launcher system, despite all of its faults, provides a certain peace of mind that Knossos does not. If development of all aspects of the FreeSpace 2 Project were to stop and vanish tomorrow, I still have my archival backups that I can unpack and play at any time. Knossos is nice and all, but it's kind of like Steam in that if it folds up for any reason, I'm screwed out of my games with them. With this system, the only way to really get updated FreeSpace mods and play them is through this system, because these updates will not be made available to work under the old Launcher system any more. New features and updates will be exclusive to Knossos, and if anything happens to Knossos, that's just too bad - you're stuck with the old versions assuming you kept them around. This is why I buy absolutely as many of my games as I can from GOG.com and get the manual installer backup for each of them. Is it paranoid? Maybe, but it's my choice to make... and it makes me feel better.
tldr: I like Knossos - it's great and its use should be encouraged; but the old system needs to be maintained just in case.
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:wtf:
Knossos will launch mods just fine without access to the server. Knossos will launch user installed mods just as fine as well.
The server portion of Knossos (Nebula) is just as open source as Knossos.
If the server goes down, you won't be able to upload or download mods from the server, but Knossos will still work and launch mods currently installed or manually installed in the Knossos format. You're confusing server downloads with server drm which Knossos does not have.
Knossos and it's server portion, Nebula, were written from the ground up by an hlp member. It also does not provide an illegal download of FS. There is literally no legal wrangling that could force it down.
Worst case scenario is that ngld stops providing the server space and we have to find somewhere else to host either Nebula, the mods, or both. Either way, Knossos will continue to work just fine and your paranoia is pointless. I remain unconvinced that I need to duplicate my mod release efforts.
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OK, so where do I download the Knossos compatible mods, and how would I point Knossos to them so they can be installed or would I have to install any such mods manually?
Are there even any manual mod installation instructions for Knossos?
What if I want to install everything from scratch on a machine with no internet access?
Will Knossos support local archival and restore of mods I download with it?
What if the servers Nebula uses get "Megauploaded" and unexpectedly have all of their resources locked permanently?
How does Nebula prevent a mod stored on it (or Knossos itself) from being updated with (or otherwise somehow infected with) a virus or other malware, and said malware is then automatically distributed as an update to everyone downstream? Are the binaries for Knossos digitally signed?
These things are either not an issue under the Launcher system, or are mitigated by time (not everyone checks for updates every day, and damage from an outbreak of malware would be limited by time until discovered). Your centralized system relies on more than a little bit of faith from everyone involved...
Edit: Rereading your response again, I think you've missed my point. I don;t consider your system to be any form of DRM. My issue is that your system becomes the only source for the mods. If I buy a new computer next year and discover HLP is gone and there is nowhere to download anything from the SCP or FSU, it is trivial to perform a fresh install of FreeSpace 2 and unpack my archives of the SCP, FSU and any mods I had onto the new computer. How would I do this with Knossos? THIS is my primary concern.
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OK, so where do I download the Knossos compatible mods, and how would I point Knossos to them so they can be installed or would I have to install any such mods manually?
You can install any mod you want to Knossos provided you write a proper mod.json. All mods are Knossos compatible. Hell, you could use Knossos's Dev tab to do the heavy lifting of creating the mod.json and then paste whatever mod files you want in it. NOTE: Because you seem rather confused on the topic.. this does not require an internet connection to do.
Are there even any manual mod installation instructions for Knossos?
It's really not all that different from older launchers. It's just much, much more compatible with TCs. The problem most people have is that the folder structure changed a bit and change is hard.
What if I want to install everything from scratch on a machine with no internet access?
What kind of question is this? How would you do that with the older installers? You still have to download everything from somewhere and transfer it with a USB drive or something else. I guess if you really insist on having a machine with no internet access to play FS mods, then you can do that with Knossos, too. Knossos does not require an internet connection to launch mods.
Will Knossos support local archival and restore of mods I download with it?
Again, what kind of question is this? It works just like old launchers. If you remove or zip up a mod, then Knossos doesn't see. If you unzip them or paste them back into the Knossos FSO folder, then it will see them. You're making up demons now.
What if the servers Nebula uses get "Megauploaded" and unexpectedly have all of their resources locked permanently?
What if FSMods goes down and takes nearly everything with it? I'm sure the community will figure out a solution to getting files back up.
How does Nebula prevent a mod stored on it (or Knossos itself) from being updated with (or otherwise somehow infected with) a virus or other malware, and said malware is then automatically distributed as an update to everyone downstream? Are the binaries for Knossos digitally signed?
Possibly the only fair question so far. I'll let ngld answer that one. However, I would also ask... in all of HLP's history, has there ever been a single case of a mod release spreading any kind of malware? Also.. do you run a machine with no virus protection.. possibly because those programs use a centralized system to update virus definitions?
These things are either not an issue under the Launcher system, or are mitigated by time (not everyone checks for updates every day, and damage from an outbreak of malware would be limited by time until discovered). Your centralized system relies on more than a little bit of faith from everyone involved...
You are conjuring up problems out of nothing and/or bringing up such fringe issues that this is almost a farce... Don't use Knossos if you don't want. I don't have to spend time releasing mods configured for old launchers if I don't want. If you're smart enough to ask all these silly questions, then you're smart enough to download the mod files and make them work in an older launcher. :doubt:
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OK, so where do I download the Knossos compatible mods, and how would I point Knossos to them so they can be installed or would I have to install any such mods manually?
If you're asking if you can migrate your existing FS installation over to something compatible with Knossos, the answer is no. If you're just wondering how to install a mod through Knossos, just install Knossos and it's pretty obvious.
Are there even any manual mod installation instructions for Knossos?
Yes, but you're probably thinking about this the wrong way. Since many if not all of the popular mods are available through Knossos, there's probably no need for you to figure this out right now. If you do want to import an existing mod that hasn't been uploaded yet, explore the dev tab. It's fairly straightforward and help is readily available.
What if I want to install everything from scratch on a machine with no internet access?
You can copy the Knossos data folder just like you can copy your existing FS2 installation.
Will Knossos support local archival and restore of mods I download with it?
See the previous answer.
What if the servers Nebula uses get "Megauploaded" and unexpectedly have all of their resources locked permanently?
I'm not sure why you're worried about this. If this happened (which it won't), I'm not sure how it would be any different than if the same happened to FSMods when FSMods was the central download repository.
How does Nebula prevent a mod stored on it (or Knossos itself) from being updated with (or otherwise somehow infected with) a virus or other malware, and said malware is then automatically distributed as an update to everyone downstream? Are the binaries for Knossos digitally signed?
These things are either not an issue under the Launcher system, or are mitigated by time (not everyone checks for updates every day, and damage from an outbreak of malware would be limited by time until discovered). Your centralized system relies on more than a little bit of faith from everyone involved...
When has this ever happened? Technically, I suppose there's a little more risk involved, but the idea of someone bundling malware into a mod is, considering the size of the FS community, pretty unbelievable. Also, presumably, your antimalware program of choice would catch this. Yes, I guess there is minutely more risk, but worrying about this borders on paranoia.
Because of Knossos/FSNebula, mods generally have at least the same or more download mirrors. Uploaded mods are automatically stored both on FSNebula (ngld's server) and the Datacorder server, which also hosts the FSMods dump. Previously, you would have had to upload it to FSMods, FSFiles and maybe Mediafire/Dropbox/what-have-you if you were really fanatical about redundancy. Now, you just click the upload button and it's stored on FSNebula and Datacorder. It's still entirely possible to upload to SectorGame or the generic commercial file hosting sites if you want, but you're getting two download hosts for essentially free.
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I really you find my suggestions of mishap farcical, but I have had ALL OF THESE scenarios happen to me or someone I know well with other softwares at one time or another. So... they are funny to you, but serious to me.
Everything I download and intend to keep is properly archived into a RAR that is then stored on a set of local HDDs. Changes to the contents of the local HDDs are immediately backed up to a large RAID array, and periodically THOSE updates are further backed up to Blu Ray disks (now, used to be DL DVDs) and then stored off-site. The RAID array is also backed up every month or two to a set of backup external HDDs that are also stored off-site. I've lost all of my data on 2 different occasions years ago, and I swore then that would never happen to me again. So far, I've kept my promise.
Installing Freespace Open with mods and without internet access is as simple as install FreeSpace 2 from my disk images (that I made from my disks that I purchased when I bought the game from EB), installing the wxLauncher I already have from my archive, and then just unpacking my FreeSapce 2 Open archives into that folder. For a very long time I had super-slow DSL service, so downloading updates was an affair, and Internet access was unreliable at best. Also, there is the case of traveling to places where there is no internet available (not that I do that often).
To be clear, I LIKE your system. I think it simplifies a lot of the work of getting FreeSpace 2 Open going, especially for new users of it. If you are saying I can simply Archive the (default location) C:\Games\FreeSpaceOpen folder, and when I need to, just install Knossos and unpack THIS folder to get playing again - that will adequately address my concerns. If this is indeed the case, this is not made clear anywhere in this thread.
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If you are saying I can simply Archive the (default location) C:\Games\FreeSpaceOpen folder, and when I need to, just install Knossos and unpack THIS folder to get playing again - that will adequately address my concerns. If this is indeed the case, this is not made clear anywhere in this thread.
You can copy the Knossos data folder just like you can copy your existing FS2 installation.
You still have to download everything from somewhere and transfer it with a USB drive or something else.
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If you remove or zip up a mod, then Knossos doesn't see. If you unzip them or paste them back into the Knossos FSO folder, then it will see them.
That clear enough?
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It really wasn't. I didn't read YOUR post until after I had posted my reply to the one above it, so I could not be 'clarified' by it. And in the case of the post to which I was actually replying, it was not immediately clear what was meant by FSO data folder.
Really, your reply to me came off as snarky, and that isn't necessary. I had a concern, it was addressed. I'm not trying to be rude in any way, so why the snark?
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Whelp, this post became much longer than anticipated but I hope I've adressed all your concerns beside the fact that you can archive (and restore) your installed mods.
The fact that it is meant to entirely preempt the old decentralized system of download and store on your own is bothersome.
Before Knossos came along everything was uploaded on FSMods, MediaFire or GDrive. (Or as a forum attachment and promptly lost.) It's "better" in the sense that only individual mods are lost and not everything at once. However, with Knossos and Nebula, every uploaded mod is stored on two different servers with reliable backups. So far, we haven't lost a single mod. IMO that's better than the previous system.
What if something catastrophic happens, and the server(s) it runs off of are lost? What if there is a cease-and-desist legal wrangle targeting Knossos?
The files are hosted on two physically separate servers controlled by two different legal entities and the main server is backed up daily. The possibility that we suffer an unrecoverable loss is extremely unlikely. If you want to make it even more likely, I'd be happy to add more mirrors to Nebula, you'd just need to provide me a suitable server to upload the files to (anything in Asia or Australia would probably be good since we already have NA and Europe covered :p).
What if the guy(s) that manage it decide they want to just take their toys and go home?
Well, I think it's silly for me to say it since I'm the one who manages the main server (and develops Knossos) but if the HLP admins WANTED TO, they could back up the datacorder thus making it impossible for me to wipe out all of Nebula. For that matter... if you want to, I could explain how YOU could backup all of the publicly available mods on Nebula (not the private mods obviously though the HLP admins could back up those, too). After all, the download links are all available in a neat JSON file.
What if ($Deity forbid) they unexpectedly DIE?
Why, yes. I've though about that though I have to admit that while the plan is finished it hasn't been completely implemented (time constraints and RL). Since the downloads are already accessible by a third-party (see the datacorder), I'd consider them safe enough. The only thing missing is a database backup (which I won't make public since it contains sensitive data). I'm planning on storing that on the datacorder as well, that way, the HLP admins should be able to access it if it became necessary and I can automatically update it daily. Finally, the source code for both Nebula and Knossos is already public (open source), the only thing missing is a manual on how to restore the database and get Nebula running.
Currently (since the plan hasn't been implemented, yet) everything but private mods and user accounts should already be recoverable.
OK, so where do I download the Knossos compatible mods, and how would I point Knossos to them so they can be installed or would I have to install any such mods manually?
There's no point to that. If you can download them manually, Knossos can download them as well.
What if I want to install everything from scratch on a machine with no internet access? Will Knossos support local archival and restore of mods I download with it?
You use a copy of a previous install (as pointed out in the last two posts). I know those posts came after yours, I just don't want to repeat them.
What if the servers Nebula uses get "Megauploaded" and unexpectedly have all of their resources locked permanently?
Highly unlikely. In any case, both servers are controlled different people living in different countries. If anything were to happen, most likely one server would go down first, leaving us time to act. Also, at least one of the two servers is backed up daily (both the database and mod files). The backups are encrypted, signed and stored off-site (feel free to ask if you want details).
How does Nebula prevent a mod stored on it (or Knossos itself) from being updated with (or otherwise somehow infected with) a virus or other malware, and said malware is then automatically distributed as an update to everyone downstream?
It doesn't. However, Knossos only launches binaries from engine uploads which (for now) are only FSO and FSO Multilock. AFAIK FSO can't launch binaries by itself so even if someone would try and distribute a virus with their mod, the only way to do that would be by distributing a new build. New uploads are announced on Discord and I check all uploaded builds (which so far has been very easy since it's just two). I realize that this isn't a highly secure measure but I encourage you to share your solution if you've got a better one.
That aside, what prevents someone from uploading a virus-infected FSO build on the forum and claim that it's a new test build?
Are the binaries for Knossos digitally signed?
No and neither are the binaries for FSO. I'm wondering why you mention that since IMO that has nothing to do with any of the other points you brought up. The downloads are served over https so it's very unlikely that the binaries are modified. You can still build it from source if you don't trust the official downloads. However, those are also built from source by an automated script (which is open source as well).
For the record, I'd like to sign the Knossos binaries. There are just two reasons why I don't: a) I'm not exactly keen showing everyone who installs Knossos my full name and b) the necessary certificates are too expensive IMO for the benefit that they offer.
These things are either not an issue under the Launcher system, or are mitigated by time (not everyone checks for updates every day, and damage from an outbreak of malware would be limited by time until discovered).
I don't see how that changes with Knossos. Updates are only installed when a user clicks the Update button. Users might check more often (since it's more convenient) but that's about it. I'd also rather try and prevent malware from being released at all than hope that it's discovered in time (which in my experience is very unreliable).
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I'm kinda concerned about future FSO builds breaking older launcher support like FSO 3.8 did with the aging 5.5g launcher. and well i don't want a launcher monopoly of a launcher that is just worser in my eyes so here's my small review (or just criticism let's be honest now ;7 ) of knossos as a manual user who likes wxlauncher and uses it to this very day :p
Knossos is super convenient in downloading mods quickly and fast and my god the amount of mods that i never played because i didn't search enough in the HLP forums is insane!
And well the only problem with knossos is that i can't have a global command line configuration for every mediavps version and mods, whenever i want to enable like say: turn on 3d radar or want to turn off vsync, i have to click more times for each category and wait almost 2 seconds for no reason (maybe CPU lag?) whatsoever and now have to do this for every mod :banghead: (i hated that i had to click on every category in the fso feature options in 5.5g and wxlauncher eliminated that for me and knossos brings a old annoyance back.)
Pretty much the only reason i don't use knossos as a launcher is because i can't download older Mediavps's and FSO versions (like 3.16.12 and 3.16.10 and for FSO 3.7.4 or older, some older mods actually need them!) and can't use global command line options that 5.5g and wxlauncher had and i just think that knossos doesn't give much freedom for people that like to thinker with stuff that manual users like me, like a lot (like combining mods and having a multiverse clusterf**k) :lol:.
Also im not sure if knossos had made some updates on the launcher end since i didn't use it for months now so my complains might be out of date for now, i have to check it again once im back from vacation :cool:
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Knossos has a global command line feature in the settings.
You can download all MediaVPs versions except for 3.6.9zeta. In fact, older mods that are tested with older mediavps will make sure that Knossos has the correct mediavps version.
There is no reason to use an older FSO build. If a mod requires an older build, then the mod has bugs that need to be fixed... but in general FSO updates are not incompatible with older mods. Worst case scenario is that they warn on more things that could causes errors or crashes in the mod data.
You can tinker in Knossos just fine.. the way you do it is just a little different now.
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NGLD, your responses are appreciated. This is good information for the community to have. Openness is good :)
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Most of that information can be found in the Knossos development thread. Well, the server side stuff probably wasn't as detailed since noone was really interested in that until now. Other stuff like the fact that you can archive your data folder or even how mod.json files work, why they exist and so on is all explained there. It's just a lot a of posts that most people (understandably) aren't willing to read through.
Most of the decisions done in the last 4 years during the Knossos development were discussed (or at least announced) in the relevant thread. Though recently I've used Discord for that instead of the forum thread since it's much easier to discuss stuff there.
Maybe we need to organize all that information on the Wiki or something. I don't know...
@Volta: That 2 second lag is the time it takes for FSO to launch and tell Knossos which flags it supports.
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So I didn't actually use Knossos yet but I'm convinced to use it as soon as I get back to playing Freespace. But I'll have a few words about it anyway.
@Mjn: Regarding the manual MVPs updates being done manually outsie of Knossos - are you, by any chance, keeping changelogs of MediaVPs? Because I think an experienced manual user of Freespace should be able to make out which archives have been updated when provided with a changelog. Or maybe Nebula is keeping one?
@mvmiller12: I think the safety of Nebula is confirmed by how nobody is asking questions like "I want to play that mod but my AV software is giving me a warning and I'm worried for my safety". Which I'm sure would be mentioned somewhere if there was malicious software in mod repositories. Basically any mod update that gets downloaded by dozens of users is also scanned by antivirus software on their PCs, so the reports of something fishy should be numerous and quite fast to arrive.
But I suppose a scan of the whole repo once in a while wouldn't hurt, right?
I also wonder if something like torrent-like download functionality would be an option - so instead of everyone downloading a mod from Nebula, the download would be also assisted by other people with Knossos who have the mod downloaded (and of course not modified in any way by the user - checksums). Of course such people would need to allow for such upload action (probably a checkbox).
Maybe Freespace isn't popular enough right now (hopes and dreams to come true...) to be clogging up Nebula with traffic when something new comes up, but it could help people with download speeds when there's a fellow Freespace player somewhere in their local or metropolitan network. Or maybe even introduce a feature allowing to fully download the files from other Knossos installment in the same LAN?
Plus, there's this thing about decentralisation.
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Implementing torrents in Knossos is planned (has been for years at this point) but isn't high priority right now. Stuff like tagging and filtering, bug fixes and a bunch of other stuff (like changelogs) are more important right now. The plan is to use an established torrent client (libtorrent) which has python bindings thus making it easy to integrate in Knossos. However, that part will be deactivated until the user explicitely enables torrents since some ISPs seem to hate torrents.
As a precaution, I've toyed with the idea of running the tracker on Nebula using a whitelist so it only tracks the torrents generated by Nebula itself. Traffic between the torrent clients will most likely be TLS encrypted to make it harder to detect and more secure. If everything goes according to plan, you'll be able to download a .torrent file (or use a magnet link) from Nebula together with a modern torrent client to seed or download mods.
All of that is just plans and speculation at this point since it'll take a while to actually implement all of that. Given that not everyone will be able to use it and the only benefit is faster and maybe more reliable downloads, improving Knossos' functionality seems more important right now.
In the short term, I want to add a new setting which allows users to select the server that's fastest for them. Since the download speeds vary greatly depending on where you live or which ISP you're using, that should help people get consistently good speeds. Currently, Knossos just picks one server at random which is the main reason why the download speeds seem very inconsistent.
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Of course it's not the priority now since there aren't that many people around. But at some point, when Freespace isn't only for these select few like us, maybe...
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Should knossos ever get torrents, I'll do my best to seed as much as I can.
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Freespace modding in general, seems to me, to be fairly decentralized. And I know for a fact, I've had to do no end of tinkering over the years to get various versions of FSOpen to play nice with the multiple, multiple versions of different mods out there that use *that* asset rather than *this* asset and work on *this* build rather than *that* build.
Would I like to see a more simplified FS2 Open? One easier for newcomers? Sure, but I'm not sure at this time how nice Knososs plays with different computers, settings, and mods.
Long story short, even though I still ask dumb questions since I'm an amateur modder, I *finally* have gotten my various builds and mods to play nice with each other, and its frustrating to hear that's not going to be supported anymore.
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What's ironic is that knossos literally does all that work for you and it's not good enough because you're unsure. Have you actually tried it? Have you actually installed knossos and installed several mods and TCs?
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[...] and its frustrating to hear that's not going to be supported anymore.
Um... who said that? Last time I checked, wxLauncher still worked. All mods available on Nebula can easily be downloaded with a browser (https://fsnebula.org/mods). You just have to write the mod.ini file yourself. Though that really shouldn't be too hard for people who've been here long enough.
Sure, but I'm not sure at this time how nice Knososs plays with different computers, settings, and mods.
I mean... Knossos detects which CPU you have an picks the appropriate FSO builds. It also supports three different OS and knows which version of the MediaVPs (or whatever other dependency) a mod needs (as long as the uploader did everything correctly). If you find anything that doesn't work, let me know and I'll see if I can fix it.
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I plan on getting on the Knossos bandwagon and wanted to clarify what I needed to do to get it installed and FSO and mods installed. It seems, by reading most of this post, that I should:
1) Back up my current FreeSpace folder
2) Completely delete all files in the FreeSpace folder
3) Reinstall FreeSpace 2 (GoG)
4) Install Knossos
5) Download FSO 3.8 through Knossos
6) Download MediaVPs 3.8 through Knossos
7) Download FSPort through Knossos
8) Et cetera with other mods
Or how about this way (This method would negate having to reinstall FS2 (GoG):
1) Delete all of my current mod folders (except the original FS2 data folder)
2) Delete all of the old launcher and FSO files from the main folder (\Games\FreeSpace)
3) Install Knossos
4) Proceed with downloads as above
Which would be the better/safer way to proceed?
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Neither; you don't have to touch your current folder at all. By default Knossos uses a different folder than the default retail path, so it can happily coexist alongside an existing install. It's also able to copy over the retail VPs from your current folder. After you install via Knossos, you can delete previous mod installs at your leisure if you want to free up some hard drive space.
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What's the new default folder?
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Knossos asks you which folder to use the first time you start it. The default value is C:\Games\FreespaceOpen though you're free to choose any folder outside of C:\Program Files.
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What's ironic is that knossos literally does all that work for you and it's not good enough because you're unsure. Have you actually tried it? Have you actually installed knossos and installed several mods and TCs?
Yes, but there are issues. It doesn't have custom lighting presets that are easy to implement. It didn't seem to import my pilots from my old install. It's difficult to see where Knossos is pulling its custom files from.
You'll just have to take it from others that while Knossos is probably genius from a designer stand point, consumers (i.e., me) don't always jump at the first thing that's new unless there are truly compelling reasons to do so. I don't feel like upgrading to Windows 10 for example until I'm forced to, because I *have* everything that I need all set up and ready to go. I no longer have the time to spend 3 hours troubleshooting and uploading crash logs when something goes wrong. And while Knossos has many fan campaigns available, it doesn't have them all. And I would have no idea how to set them up with this new system.
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FSO 3.8.0 (and all future releases) uses a new settings directory in %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpen. Your pilot files will be stored there as well. You can copy your old files into the new folder if you want to.
Knossos doesn't have lighting presets since none of the existing ones work with the new renderer. As far as I'm aware, there is only one preset so far for the new renderer.
Which custom files are you talking about? The only new file type are the mod.json files which are generated during the installation.
because I *have* everything that I need all set up and ready to go.
Then why are you complaining about Knossos? Noone's forcing you to use it.
I no longer have the time to spend 3 hours troubleshooting and uploading crash logs when something goes wrong.
That's exactly why Knossos is designed the way it is. The whole installation process is standardized and automated which reduces the possibility of stuff going wrong. Besides, Knossos uploads its own error logs unless you turn it off but I guess that's not relevant here.
And while Knossos has many fan campaigns available, it doesn't have them all. And I would have no idea how to set them up with this new system.
Sure but we have to start somewhere. Knossos already has a lot of mods/campaigns available and we have a guide if you want to add a new mod (and optionally upload it).
I'm really unsure what you're complaining about... either you're fine with the way things are in which case not much has changed or you want an easier way to install mods in which case Knossos is IMO the best solution we have. It's not perfect but then again it's something that was purely developed in the spare time of everyone involved.
Something that's been irritating me is that recently people have started to complain about Knossos (or certain parts of it) instead of asking if it could be changed. I'm open to different opinions and constructive criticism. Knossos would've never become what it is today without the great feedback, help and support that I've received in the past (holy crap, has it already been 4 years?! Time flies...).
Anyway, I value any constructive feedback I can get. It might take a while to incorporate the feedback (my spare time is obviously limited) but I try to prioritize important changes and simple fixes.
TL;DR: Knossos is a nice tool that seems to help a lot of people but also seems to upset a lot of (other) people although it shouldn't really affect you if you don't use it.
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Knossos asks you which folder to use the first time you start it. The default value is C:\Games\FreespaceOpen though you're free to choose any folder outside of C:\Program Files.
FSO 3.8.0 (and all future releases) uses a new settings directory in %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpen. Your pilot files will be stored there as well.
So what I'm reading is the Knossos launcher, FSO settings and pilots will reside in %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpen. The Knossos launcher will then download and install FSO and mods under C:\Games\FreespaceOpen (or the folder of your choice), correct?
But I'll still have to install the original Freespace 2 into the FSO install folder, before or after Knossos downloads and installs FSO so it will run properly.
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So what I'm reading is Knossos itself installs into %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpen
That is incorrect. You choose where the Knossos app itself is installed, just like any other program (Firefox, Notepad++, etc.).
The %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpenfolder contains files used by FSO, such as pilot and campaign savefiles, and is not specific to Knossos. Other compatible launchers like wxLauncher will use this directory as well.
The Knossos launcher will then download and install FSO and mods under C:\Games\FreespaceOpen (or the folder of your choice), correct?
Correct.
But you still have to install the original Freespace 2 into Knossos' FSO install folder, before or after downloading and installing FSO and mods, so FSO will run properly, correct?
Do not try to install retail FS2 into the Knossos data folder. When first setting up Knossos, you can either give it the path to your current FS installation or the path to the GoG installer, and Knossos will then copy over the necessary files to C:\Games\FreespaceOpen or whatever folder you chose. Knossos will never write to your existing installation.
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Ok, thanks for the clarification, PIe. Sorry, didn't want to seem dense, I just wanted to understand the new directory/file structure for Knossos and where Knossos and FSO will store settings, pilots, executables and mods.
One final question: if the pilot files will be stored under %appdata%\HardlightProductions\FreespaceOpen, will they be in the actual \FreespaceOpen folder or a subfolder called "\Pilots" or something similar? I'd like to transfer my existing pilot files into the proper settings folder, if possible.
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%appdata%\HardLightProductions\FreeSpaceOpen\data\players
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Do not try to install retail FS2 into the Knossos data folder. When first setting up Knossos, you can either give it the path to your current FS installation or the path to the GoG installer, and Knossos will then copy over the necessary files to C:\Games\FreespaceOpen or whatever folder you chose. Knossos will never write to your existing installation.
Hi,
I've been out of the loop for a long time, so just a quick question about Knossos, if I may.
Is it safe to remove/delete the original FS installation folder (or deinstalling FS altogether) after Knossos has done its job, or do we need to keep this folder for certain reasons ?
Just asking from a disk's free space (hahaha) point of view ^^
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Once you get Knossos up and running and it copies over your retail FS2 VPs, you can go ahead and delete any redundant mods in the original FS2 folder to free up some space. If you've only used FSO builds older than 3.8.0, you'll want to copy your pilot and campaign files to the new save location in your %APPDATA%/Hard Light Productions/... folder.
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So what is the point of having two installs of Freespace 2 on your system then? Why is it necessary for Knossos to double your install?
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Knossos will take care of installing FS2 for you if you have the GOG version or the Steam version. If you just have the files somewhere, it can take care of setting up a Knossos-compatible FSO folder structure using those files.
Once Knossos is setup with FS2, you can delete/uninstall/remove/whatever your old install. You do not need to keep both. You can if you want, though.
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Thanks for your answers, greatly appreciated :)
I still have isos of my original cds <3, so it will help keep things clean (it was a great idea to make a copy at the time, as the poor guys are long dead ^^ )