Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Unknown Target on October 26, 2002, 03:51:33 pm
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Ahhh....here we go! Our first discussion.
Now, the theme for this thread is prouplsion. Please keep spam to a minimum, and NO FLAMING! Only legit posts in this thread, this is serious ppl.
The process we shall follow is one of elimination: We first say a theory, then someone who is opposed to it tries to eliminate it. The person who is for it tries to protect it, but if the evidence is overwhelming that it wouldn't work (like using saw dust to travel faster than light by shooting it out the back of the ship), he should:
A) Try to think of a variation.
B) Study it more, and bring back evidence THAT REFUTES the previous statements.
C) Agree with the other person's theory, and try to nurture that along.
Now, first theory:
Subspace. I'd start it off, but I'm too tired.
Have at it.
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'subspace' is basically a wormhole. These things exist but no one has ever entered one (well DUH) and it's only a theory that through them, it is possible to travel billions of lightyears with just a few seconds.
My personal opinion what happens if you enter a wormhole:
A. you're a very, very sick guy
B. you feel like a sandwich
C. you're dead before you can say 'tell my wife that I love her'
I'll leave all the scientific stuff to someone else... :p
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Originally posted by Ten of Twelve
C. you're dead before you can say 'tell my wife that I love her'
Pretty much it. Since the event horizon alone would crush you to sub-atomised pulp.
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What if you could control subspace? What if, when you entered it, you had an inhibitor, that would "push" away subspace, where everything is compressed except things inside the inhibitor?
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'push' away? Gotta think about it...
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It's a long shot: Let's say, for instance, subspace was positively charged. So you'd have to negatively charge all matter in the traveler's spaceship to push it away.
That's one way of doing it...
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Originally posted by Ten of Twelve
B. you feel like a sandwich
:wtf:
Ahem. Anyways, there's a bunch of info about subspace in the Freespace Reference Bible:
[q]
Subspace Technology
While travel into subspace is enabled via ship-borne devices (called “subspace engines”, “cores”, or “motivators”), it’s long been known that subspace itself is a naturally-occuring phenomena.
Subspace, for the intents of this document, is an alternate physical plane of space where the normal limits of relativistic physics and travel don’t apply. By entering subspace for a relatively brief period of time, a space vessel can emerge in a location in realspace several star systems away. This technology has allowed the human race to spread across much of the known Galaxy.
There are essentially two modes of subspace travel, inter-system and intra-system.
Intra-system subspace travel is nearly instantaneous, and requires relatively little energy input to enable. Most of the GTA’s advanced fighters are equipped with intra-system jump motivators, allowing them to travel at will within a given star system. There is little or no restriction on the beginning and end points of such a subspace “hop,” except that they be in the same star system.
Inter-system travel via subspace is another matter entirely. The end points of inter-system subspace jumps are limited to the naturally-occuring focal points of subspace, also known as “nodes.” These nodes were initially discovered by Prof. J. Whiteside (see McPherson’s Multipaedia (2557 ed.), pp 1132-1140). Only between two subspace nodes is the fabric of subspace strong enough to support inter-system travel. The defense of the physical locations surrounding such nodes proved to be a central part of the 14-year Terran-Vasudan War.
In addition, such massive amounts of energy input are required to open an inter-system node, that only the largest fusion pile reactors in existence are able to sustain it. As a result, inter-system subspace travel is almost exclusively made by the largest vessels in production. This fact has made the GTA’s Orion-class destroyer/carriers a pivotal and crucial part to the GTA’s tactical forces during the T-V War.
Needless to say, the ability to deliver ships of war to nearly any pinpointed destination has forever revolutionized the concepts and long-standing tenants of space combat.
[/q]
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One thing is Freespace, other is reality
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Already looked. This is about the most usefull part of that entire thing:
Subspace....is an alternate physical plane of space where the normal limits of relativistic physics and travel don’t apply. By entering subspace for a relatively brief period of time, a space vessel can emerge in a location in realspace several star systems away.
We are focusing on reality, not fantasy ;)
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
What if you could control subspace? What if, when you entered it, you had an inhibitor, that would "push" away subspace, where everything is compressed except things inside the inhibitor?
Like Warp Fields in Star Trek?
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Sort of, but that's for another topic. Right now propulsion is what we're concentrating on....
But, yes, I guess they basically do the same thing, except in different envireoments.
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Actually "warp field" is a misnomer to a certain degree. Based on the theory of relativity (and some tests involving super-dense materials) it is possible to bend space, or more specifically to add and remove space between two objects. Warp drive would be easily achieved if we had some way of removing (collapsing) the space in between us and our destination and creating (expanding) the space behind us. With such an ability, the only factor in the time it takes for one to reach a distant destination is the rate at which you can compress/expand space. Sort of like in Dune, "traveling between the stars without ever moving," such a system would be a true warp drive. This is the only faster-than-light form of transportation, besides wormholes, that is currently understood as theoretically possible.
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just curious, but what would happen to all of that 'in between' space?
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As long as nothing is in that space, nothing happens. Everything in compressed space would be moved closer together. Thinking of space as a "fabric" is an over-used analogy, space can be compressed or expanded with relatively little consequence.
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I'm temporarily tabling the FTL talk, as this thread is about realistic methods of space propulsion.
Ok, propulsion. To talk about propulsion, you've got to talk about ship mass.
The more massive the ship, the more powerful an engine is required to move it.
Then you factor in time. How fast do you want to get where you're going? You can make the ship go faster by using more propellant, but you still have to save enough to stop once you get to your destination. Also, if you use all you're propellant to start and stop, what if you discover an asteroid in you're path?
Realistically, in the next 20-30 years we'll see interplanetary craft powered by nuclear fission and propelled by hydrogen torch, due to the fact that hydrogen provides the most propulsive power for the least amount of reaction mass.
Beyond that, we'll probably see fusion replace fission first. Then, possibly as we begin to explore the possibilities of 12 dimensional Hyperspace, we could see the "Space Transfer Drive" discussed above, although I can only see it used for interstellar journeys as it couldn't be very accurate initally. Also, we could see "Mass Shifting", similar to Inertial Damping in Star Trek, where part of the mass of the ship is shifted to an altenate sub-dimension, possibly generated by a system of field generators through out the ship. This would have the effect of allowing massive vessels to be built, on the order of the Orion or the Hecate.
Well there's my suggestion/theory. Now, pick it to pieces!
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Wow. Lots of input here. Now I'm interested.:D
Anyway, sometime back, (like maybe beginning of this year I think), I remember reading a small article in the newspapers one morning. It was about NASA trying to develop engines for spaceships to travel near the speed of light or maybe faster than what present space shuttles can top out at.
It said that NASA was tinkring with the idea of using engines powered by nuclear power since nuclear power takes forever to sort of die out. Another theory NASA was thinking about was ion engines. Instead of the typical hydrogen and oxygen engines on space shuttles now which emit yellow or orange flames, ion engines would emit blue flames.
Now, I don't know if that is real or not or whether NASA gave up, but I thought I should share it with you guys here.
Seriously speaking, if you could travel at the speed of light, how do you prevent yourself from becoming pure energy as theorized by Einstein's E=MC2?
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In answer to the last part: You can't. In this universe, it is impossible to accelerate an object to the speed of light. As you approach the speed of light, the mass of the object increases thus requiring additional thrust to accellerate it. Eventually you reach a point where enough energy cannont be generated in a controlled manner to accellerate the object any faster.
Ion engines still require propellant, in practice they are just more powerful versions of the chemical based engines currently is use. NASA seems to have lost the pioneering spirit it had in the 1960s under President Kennedy, but thats another thread entirely.
This reminds me of a method of delivering cargo at interplanetary ranges I saw on TLC or TDC. A vessel is built that has a massive "sail" attached some kilometers in front of the actual cargo pod. The pod is equipped with approximately 20-30 small scale thermonuclear devices which are release toward the "sail" and detonated once a safe distance has been reached. The resulting energy rebound's off the "sail" providing proplusive force. The downside is the acceleration is so enormous no living thing, save bacteria, could survive it.
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oh, the theory of relativity is sooo last century.
Read Hawking.
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So, if it is impossible to travel at the speed of light without becoming energy, how can Humans travel to other systems and planets? Are we destined to remain in our own little Solar System?
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Originally posted by Stunaep
Read Hawking
I seem to remember... something about the Universe being the shape of a doughnut? Did I get that right? Meh... I'm not smart :)
Anyways, the ion drive is of limited use - sure, it can theoretically propel a ship up to ten percent the speed of light, but then we're still looking at forty years to reach AC... even longer, since the bloody things takes ages to accelerate. The beauty of it is it just keeps getting faster, and faster, and.. well, you get the idea.
Basically, we're not leaving the solar system, or even going much further than Mars probably, until we discover either a new law of physics, or that we got an existing one wrong. To even go to Mars NASA is looking at completely radical approches to space travel, so you can imagine what we'd need to think up in roder to leave Sol.
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Originally posted by NeoHunter
So, if it is impossible to travel at the speed of light without becoming energy, how can Humans travel to other systems and planets? Are we destined to remain in our own little Solar System?
No, humans are just so dumb that they can't figure out how to travel at lightspeed.
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Originally posted by Ten of Twelve
No, humans are just so dumb that they can't figure out how to travel at lightspeed.
let's take this off the spam road, now shall we?
1. Scientist have already made a photon go faster than light (funny, isn't it, making light go faster than light).
2. Contrary to popular belief, Einstein's theory of relativity does not forbid a material object from travelling faster than light, only at the speed of light. Particles called tachyons may exist for which the speed of light is the lower limit. In fact some scientists have suggested that neutrinos which are small subatomic particles that may make up the bulk of the universe are tachyons.
-http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/5408/Faster_Light.htm
3.Despite the apparently bizarre physics involved in these theories, there are enough cracks in current physics theory that faster than light travel can not be ruled out yet.
- same source
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Originally posted by Stunaep
oh, the theory of relativity is sooo last century.
Read Hawking.
Yes, indeedy! I'm reading a brief history of time right now.
I think the best way to deal with the light speed barrier is to say: The closer you get to 2.98*10^8 m/s , the more the traditional laws of physics get shoved up yer ass. Everything we 'know' becomes meaningless.
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Lots of input here! I can't wait till it's completed!(Don't forget: We still need to figure out how to do this) :nod:
EDIT: BTW, scientists have managed to STOP light :)
Originally posted by NeoHunter
So, if it is impossible to travel at the speed of light without becoming energy, how can Humans travel to other systems and planets?
What if you bypass light, by going through subspace. In order for humans to colonize the stars, we need to go faster than light, or else it would never be feasable.
BTW, I like that idea of "folding" space, however, it's not useful for traveling from 1 planet to another, or even to another solar system. Why? Because, like he said, it would not be good for anything that was in the folded space.
Here's an idea: Since subspace is an n-dimensional plane, nothing exists in it. What if you entered subspace, then folded that? There is nothing in between you and your destination in SP.
Of course, there's always the gravimetric distortions that would doubtlessly occur when you enter, so you'd have to be careful. You might even rip SP apart.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Here's an idea: Since subspace is an n-dimensional plane, nothing exists in it. What if you entered subspace, then folded that? There is nothing in between you and your destination in SP.
Of course, there's always the gravimetric distortions that would doubtlessly occur when you enter, so you'd have to be careful. You might even rip SP apart.
What do we know about subspace in reality?
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Nothing, but we have very strong theories.
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*Bump*
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There are 12 known dimensions presently in physics.
As aldo mentioned our universe is indeed the shape of a dounut (ring dounut with a hole in the middle).
Our universe is made up of 10 of these known dimensions. The other 2 are what is known exists outside of our universe.
Subspace is the dimensional layers that exist below our own.
Hyperspace is the dimensional layers that exist above our own.
You would be more likely to use hyperspace for interstellar travel than subspace, though it is possible that either could be used. By entering subspace through conventional theoretical methods you are reducing the number of dimensions a ship occupies (from 3 dimension now to 1 dimensional). But by doing this you are effective destroying the very thing you are attempting to move because to de-dimensionise the transport ship and it's passengers you must change it's energy type into another form. And by doing that you are destroying exactly what makes up the ship and the passengers in the first place. Though I am not saying subspace travel is totally impossible, just less likely to be used.
And just a note: since star treks transporters work on matter/energy convertion they are effectively killing the crew and creating copies ever time they get 'beamed' (regardless of whether they are using the same matter/particles or not). You are only alive as long as your mind is active, the moment that is taken away you cease to be and the reformed you is a copy.
Hyperspace travel would shift the 'ship' up a number of dimensions and use the extra 'dimensional directions' to allow the ship to move more quickly to it's destination. Although shifting the ship up a few dimensions would be difficult it could still be done safely as there are still three dimensions in which the ship normally exists.
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I think that pretty much erases subspace:rolleyes:
On to Hyperspace! That's now our focus, if everyone agrees...
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And while it dawns on me I will explain the basic understanding of 'dimensions' for those people who lack the gift of understanding.
We live in a 3 dimensional world which is effected by time (time is classed as the 4th dimension).
A 0 dimensional object is just a dot. It cannot move what so ever. Heck the very thought of movement of any form is alien to a 0D object.
A 1 dimensional object is a line. It can move back and forth along this line, but not to the sides or up and down. Only back and forth. (think of a straight string that cannot move, the object can only move back and forth along the string).
2 dimensional objects are flat squares. They can move back and forth as well as side to side (left and right). But they cannot move up and down. (think of a 2d object as an ultra-flat piece of paper that cannot be folded).
3 dimensional objects are cubic. They can move back and forth, left and right as well as up and down.
The 4th dimension (and beyond) is where things start to get more complicated. Although classed as the 4th dimension, time is actually only one dimension (at least as far as we know). You can travel back and forth along the one dimensional time line, though at present travelling backwards along this line has proven impossible.
Of the 10 dimensions in our universe, time (4d) is the odd one out. Where as the other 9 are dimensions of area/direction, time is the dimension of passage that allows movement to exist in the other dimensions. Without time these dimensions would remain in the same place forever (think of a 'stasis field').
To explaing the high dimensions of 5 and above I would need to go into scientific details that even I have trouble understanding, so now that you have the basics just know that 5-10 are dimensions of area similar to the 1 and 2D, but they just have more directions.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Realistically, in the next 20-30 years we'll see interplanetary craft powered by nuclear fission and propelled by hydrogen torch, due to the fact that hydrogen provides the most propulsive power for the least amount of reaction mass.
Nope, Anti-Matter wins there.
And Unknown Target, if you're right, then subspace is essentially like Foundation Hyperspace. But then travel should be instantaneous.
Its pretty much hopeless trying to make subspace look possible. The only fictional FTL travel I've ever thought of as possible is B5 hyperspace.
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As for making photons go faster than light, it's a trick. In reality, the 'lead' photon in a chain was bumped up to beyond light speed by a string of other photons in some manner. It might have been energy transfer, but my recollection there is hazy. Anyway, the point is that the sum speed of all the photons never exceeded the speed of light.
Besides, if we're talking about FTL travel through normal space, how does one avoid objects large and small, predictably mobile and immobile, and what about the relativity of time anyway?
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Originally posted by Mr. Vega
Nope, Anti-Matter wins there.
And Unknown Target, if you're right, then subspace is essentially like Foundation Hyperspace. But then travel should be instantaneous.
Doubtful.
M/AM reactors and/or drives mean that both matter and anti-matter need to be carried on board. This means fuel. The idea in the future will be to get ships that don't require large amounts of fuel. Aside from which generation of anti-matter is very difficult and even in the coming future will still be difficult to create.
Interplanetary propultion will be most likely using a different method, be it gravity distortion or some form of advanced reactive mass drive (ionic fusion perhaps).
And subspace isn't hyperspace. I've already been through this (though you may not have read it). Subspace exists below our dimensions. Hyperspace exists about our dimensions.
And regardless of what form of travel you use, there is very little chance that any type of travel would be instantaneous. Very quick perhaps, but not instant.
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There is the possibility of using something like the Alcubierre drive idea, which bends space around the ship into hyperbolic wave-like manifolds, if it is possible to generate particles with negative and/or complex mass.
Besides, if we're talking about FTL travel through normal space, how does one avoid objects large and small, predictably mobile and immobile, and what about the relativity of time anyway?
Those are the main problems with anything going through space in the conventional manner. The normally harmless small particles of dust in space will rip holes right through the ship and the relative time will be going in reverse. :D
There are 12 known dimensions presently in physics.
I thought it was 26 or something?
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What about storing ourselves as neutrinos? I think those things are faster than light, and they've recently been shown to be matter... perhaps we could put a billion billion (whatever) of those in an arrangment which would be us... then we'd somehow re-create on the other side (perhaps send some kind of receiver over to wherever via stl drives...)
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I thought it was 26 or something?
wow.. have any names/explanations?
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Depends on your definition of 'dimension'.
Where did you hear/read this anyway?
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Originally posted by elorran
Depends on your definition of 'dimension'.
Where did you hear/read this anyway?
I believe dimensions are infinite. I believe this because there are so many arguments over the number of dimensions from lots, to few. At one time we believed in 3 dimensions, period. Then 4. Then on and on. It just so happens we can only "prove" the existence of 12 right now.
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What about creating special devices that can "teleport" the atoms and molecules of an object from one system to another? Something like the transporter technology in all Star Trek movies and episodes? Gates would have to constructed at every system we know.
But then again, getting to the other system to actually build the device is something else.
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Originally posted by NeoHunter
...Gates would have to constructed at every system we know...
Do we have to bring Microsoft into every discussion in this place?? :rolleyes: Sheesh!
:p
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If you want a realistic view on space travel, go read Flight of the Dragonfly. ;)
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Originally posted by CP5670
I thought it was 26 or something?
you thought!?!?!?!?
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Subspace exists below our dimensions. Hyperspace exists about our dimensions
...There being either a "below" or "above" in dimensional terms, or even anywhere without a detectable gravity pulling towards a single point...:rolleyes:
Anyway- Yes, it actually basically explains in the FS Bible that "subspace" was just a less tired phrasing of "hyperspace"- "hyperspace" is the sort of thing Flash Gordon would use to get around, "subspace" is a name fit for a Shivan.
FTL's kinda rough to theorize on, because it's ENTIRELY theoretical. We know nothing about it, and have no capacity to know anthing about it. The (very) little data we have on wormholes and black holes could just as well be equipment malfunctions, and isn't conclusive in the first place. The whole "parallel universes" thing is best treated as a myth until evidence suggests otherwise, just like anything that doesn't stem from a natural deduction from the known- if you need books and books of obscure theoretical mathematics to justify it, it probably ain't true.
BTW: THis is pretty related- why hasn't NASA tried an EM catapult to launch ships yet? Is there something wrong with the theory?
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
BTW: THis is pretty related- why hasn't NASA tried an EM catapult to launch ships yet? Is there something wrong with the theory?
For one the catapult has to be buil in space. If you try to catapult a ship from the surface, well... :blah: . And since we are still a long way from having multiple multifuctional space stations (at least decades away) I don't see that happening anytime soon.
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If anyone is interested in reading the input of someone who really does know what he's talking about on the issue of wormholes and such (unlike the rest of us in here), try this page (http://astron.berkeley.edu/~bmendez/html/time.html) from Berkeley. Its primary subject is actually time travel, but the section on wormholes, and more specifically those which do not have an event horizon to cross (and are thus free of the matter-rending, time-stopping effects associated with them), are very pertinent.
Basically, all we need to do(!) is find a way to grab one of these things which are speculated to occur quite frequently over very infinitesimal distances for very infinitesimal times (rather like those described in the FS2 Tech Room) and then pour negative energy matter(!) into them to stabilise them against the forces that would otherwise collapse them. Of course, both of these things are not exactly easy to do...
Coincidentally, I just read an article about this same subject today in Scientific American, and it said basically the same stuff.
So reading this, we see that the jump drives of FreeSpace are actually negative energy emitters!
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On further reflection, something else becomes clear regarding FS jump nodes (assuming they are traversable wormholes, which they appear to be). That jumping through a node gets you to a new system before light does is obvious, and thus there is a sort of relativistic time travel involved. However, jumping through a wormhole would not produce the differently-aged-twins phenomenon in and of itself.* The time lag situation would only arise if 1) the positions of the jump nodes moved in relation to each other, or 2) one of the mouths was situated in a much stronger gravitational field than the other.
If the two mouths (i.e. FS "nodes") of the conduit moved relative to one another, a time lag would occur between the two points proportional to that movement. However, this time lag would be no more significant than that between, say, Sol and Delta Serpentis now (and that isn't much, since they aren't moving all that quickly in relation to each other). It is worth noting that jumps to systems nearer or farther from galactic centre would exhibit more time lag, since systems nearer are rotating around the centre faster than those further away.
Since FS jumpnodes are naturally occuring and can't be towed around like those in the paper linked above, the only other important question is where the mouths of the wormhole are in relation to their stars. If there is a significant difference between the gravitational forces in operation at the points of space where the mouths open, a time lag will result in proportion to that difference. So if one node opens at a point near the outer edges of its host system, and the other close up to the star of its host system, a significant time lag will result.
Given the way jump nodes lie in FS (i.e. non-humanly moveable and never very close to the host suns), the time lag effects in the FS universe would never be very considerable. (Indeed the effects across a single system might be greater than between systems!)
*Since space is collapsed to a minimum in the wormhole, the distance traversed is short, requiring no near-lightspeed travel, and thus producing little more time lag than a trip to the corner store.
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Tiara: Being ground-based is the whole point of a catapult. It's a much chaper way to launch things than we currently use.
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by EM catapult I assume you mean a maglev of some kind. Nasa had plans to build one of those in the Rockies if I remember correctly, but couldn't come up with enough funding to even put it on the drawing board.
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Sort of a maglev, sort of a railgun. I don't know what kind of funding it'd need, after all, I'm building one in my garage, and it's not too expensive. Some parts are tough to find (1/100 second delay devices of some sort), but you'd think NASA could arrange it.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Sort of a maglev, sort of a railgun. I don't know what kind of funding it'd need, after all, I'm building one in my garage, and it's not too expensive. Some parts are tough to find (1/100 second delay devices of some sort), but you'd think NASA could arrange it.
Not when it's 10 miles long, have to be bored through mountains to keep it straight, and require at least one nuclear power plant to operate. There is a big difference between launching spark plug tips from a home-made railgun and hurling a craft into space, and with the budget crunch NASA is under, I doubt such devices would take high priority. I hear the navy is working on a nice little rail gun though, capable of firing 1000 miles with an accuracy of within like 10 yards...
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Wouldn't suprise me, without much recoil at all you can get damn accurate.
Spark plugs? What's the fun in that? Juice cans, now...
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Originally posted by StratComm
Not when it's 10 miles long, have to be bored through mountains to keep it straight, and require at least one nuclear power plant to operate.
They build tunnels for railways and roads through mountains... what would the difficulty be, just find somewhere relatively flat. I think the expense would be justified, even if nasa alone cant afford it, it would be a huge step for the human race - cheap and efficient transport to space would allow all sorts of things we can currently only dream of.
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What you all are discussing about reminds of an episode of Star Trek where the Enterprise follows a ship which rides on some energy that propels the ship to warp speed. Its like a surfer riding the waves at the beach.
Unfortunately, the ship was destroyed by the wave.:)