Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Liberator on October 27, 2002, 01:25:06 am
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After reading, and posting in this thread: http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,11006.0.html I had a question form:
How far into space should the Human Race have spread by now?
The Moon?
Mars?
Should we have a massive terraforming project in the open phases for Venus?
Orital Space Colonies a'la Mobile Suit: Gundam?
Personally, I believe we should have at least one lunar colony with a couple of hundred thousand permanent residents. Also, we should have asteroid mining facilities and a dozen or more cloudscoops in close orbit of Jupiter to provide the hydrogen and HE3 required to power it all. But's that's just me. Tell what you think?
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whaddya mean by should. Could we get clarification on that?
Should have, if it weren't for the dark ages? Should have, if we hat met the Vulcans, in say 1966? Should have, if the moon mission would have been in 1869? Because, it's obvious, that in the current timeline, in the year 2002, we should have gone on the moon a few times, built space stations, building the biggest SS yet, and possibly going to Mars in 16 years.
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Seriously speaking, we are too caught up in civil wars, terrorism and politics that people over look the space exploration program or something like that.
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I'd say that given current technology and knowledge, we could have a permanent dwelling (albeit small) on the moon. It wouldn't be even remotely self sufficient, and would thus be cost prohibitive.
We should have also stuck a station (or two) at each of the Earth/Moon Lags. Having a permanent installation there could help lower Moon transit costs a huge amount.
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Well, if Kennedy had really been interested in the science or the exploration, NASA probably would have built permanent structures on and orbiting the Moon. Instead, they flew there, stuck their fingers up at the Reds and then forgot about it when they realised how expensive nuclear weapons are :(
But having said that, have you seen the reports on that private enterprise thingy they're launching next summer? It'll take uber-detailed orbital surveys of the Moon, in an attempt to determine the most suitable site for commercial landings - we're talking about passenger trips to the Moon in our lifetime, people.
I've always said that private enterprise is humanity's best hope for space exploration. When you look at stuff like the X-Prize, you realise there is hope. And apparently, that rich beardy twat Branson is looking in to the cheapest contractor for a Virgin space travel service.
The second they open the Moon for holiday makers, I'm there - and I'm taking me clubs :nod:
Fore!
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There is no way we are going to expand to extra-terrestrial colonies until we find a good enough reason: and our dreams of a the GTVA/Federation/Earth Alliance are not good enough for most people. What will cause a colonisation program or whatever, is when we find something out there thats worth money. a la Total Recall style.
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What do you mean? Should have? I think we are right where we "should" be, not where i'd like to be, or where we could or couldn't be, but we are where we have been.
Wtf to should've. Say that we are replacing some event in history... say WWII. without it we should/could have been somewhere else right now. Not nessaserly in a better position then we are now, but we could be anywhere right now if things happened differently. We are exactly where we should be.
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Well, if Kennedy had really been interested in the science or the exploration, NASA probably would have built permanent structures on and orbiting the Moon. Instead, they flew there, stuck their fingers up at the Reds and then forgot about it when they realised how expensive nuclear weapons are :(
Precisely. If the Cold War had never ended we probably would have a moon base by now. But everyone seems to think domestic and international affairs are more important than pumping huge amounts of money into a space program.
Granted, they have a point, but we need to be concerned about the future, nto just the present. We might end up with a Krypton (not quite as drastic) situation where forward planning would save thousands of people.
And space exploration brought us fantastic advances in technology and other things; look at the computers they used. Nowadays NASA is on such a tight budget they can't be bothered to check the difference between Imperial and Metric systems in their spacecraft.
This is really a sore spot for me. We should have kept going to the moon. :mad2:
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Precisely. If the Cold War had never ended we probably would have a moon base by now. But everyone seems to think domestic and international affairs are more important than pumping huge amounts of money into a space program.
Granted, they have a point, but we need to be concerned about the future, nto just the present. We might end up with a Krypton (not quite as drastic) situation where forward planning would save thousands of people.
And space exploration brought us fantastic advances in technology and other things; look at the computers they used. Nowadays NASA is on such a tight budget they can't be bothered to check the difference between Imperial and Metric systems in their spacecraft.
This is really a sore spot for me. We should have kept going to the moon. :mad2:
yeah, and keep the Soviet Union running 'till today. I'd rather have freedom than some base on the moon, I don't really give any damn about, thank you very much. :doubt:
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What do you mean? Should have? I think we are right where we "should" be, not where i'd like to be, or where we could or couldn't be, but we are where we have been.
Very good point here. Whatever has happened is exactly what "should" have happened, since the only reason it "should" have happened is precisely because it did happen. :D
But everyone seems to think domestic and international affairs are more important than pumping huge amounts of money into a space program.
Exactly, and practically speaking, they are quite right. As vyper said, there is little point in pouring billions of dollars in setting up a large moon colony when there are almost no practical benefits involved. (if we want scientific information, unmanned/robotic satellites and surface probes are a far, far more efficient solution, which NASA has been doing a pretty good job on recently)
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The problem with diverting money into space travel is that, that money is tax money, and space travel is no more then a nerd's wet dream. So Nasa is not getting nearly enough money as it needs to launch these kinds of projects. That and the government sucks... just because they do.
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When I look at today's politicians I see people trying to cope with such everday things as the economy, diplomatic relations with other countries, defense budgets, and so on.
How many politicians and world leaders ever spare a thought for the future of the human species? How often does the leader of your country stop to think about the next rung on the evolutionary ladder, and how that will affect his or her citizen's descendants?
Is there one single government worker out there thinking 'hold on, this world can't support us for ever - we need to get out in to space, or modify our genes so we eat less or feel less of an urge to kill each other'?
The answer is probably no, none, or never (which ever seems most gramitically pleasing). Unfortuantely, we're al too busy trying to stop ourselves getting stabbed in the back to concentrate our efforts on advancement. If the British government took the money it spent on building nukes and spent it on cold fusion research, we'd probably have the bugger up and running and lighing our homes by now. If the Americans didn't feel they needed such a huge defense budget, they could have found the money to complete the ISS long ago... the list goes on.
John - We're not gonna make it, are we? People, I mean...
T800 - It's in your nature to destroy yourselves...
:sigh:
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This species NEEDS to get its arse in gear and get over nation-state divisions.
Because there ARE other sentient lifeforms out there and if they have gotten to the level where they can pull together and work as a species we wont stand a chance, because you can bet your bottom dollar they'll be stomping us for colonial space or resources, or both.
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If us Americans hadn't been such lazy people after Apollo we would be on Mars by now and have the first space hotels orbiting Earth in a few months.
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Originally posted by vadar_1
The problem with diverting money into space travel is that, that money is tax money, and space travel is no more then a nerd's wet dream. So Nasa is not getting nearly enough money as it needs to launch these kinds of projects. That and the government sucks... just because they do.
there's a rather simple (not really but hey :p ) way to make people aware of what space-travel has done for them:
take away all technology developed because of space travel. You'll see them shouting for it soon enough
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Go, non-stick pans! Go!
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See all that fuss about the zero-g pen the Merkins developed? Cost them millions of dollars, but they did it - a pen that writes in the zero gravity of space.
The Russians used a pencil.
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Good ol' Russian ingeunuity...
Maybe the Soviets weren't as bad as we made them out to be? :p
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They couldn't afford the pen. At one point Russia ploughed 50% or more of it's GDP into defence spending. Basically, the USSR is viewed as a costly social failure because they tried to compete with the US in a system designed by capitalism and for capitalism; and because through military competition they diverted masses of money that could've been put to good use elsewhere, like healthcare.
You see, Communism works - in theory. It's just the damn people who mess it up. :p
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The system does not fail - only people fail.
Buggered if I'm living in a society with that kind of attitude :)
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There are no stupid answers, just stupid people.
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Fortunately, in both the last posts I've been quoting other people. ;)
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
See all that fuss about the zero-g pen the Merkins developed? Cost them millions of dollars, but they did it - a pen that writes in the zero gravity of space.
The Russians used a pencil.
I almost wish they hadn't developed it...do you know how many spam e-mails I've gotten because of that damn pen?!?
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*counts on fingers*
*scratches head*
Err.. twelve?
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If it hadn't been for people's insistance that science was evil, there'd have never been the dark-ages and thus we'd already have mastered time and space.
But anyway, as soon as someone figures out how to make artificial gravity, the human race's knowledge and power will expand exponentially and within a few short years we will be Gods, destroying planets and inferior races on a whim.
The second Hawkins completes a Unified Field Theory, then we're gonna ****ing 0wn the universe and God really will be dead. Omnipotent lay-about ****.
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Originally posted by an0n
The second Hawkins completes a Unified Field Theory, then we're gonna ****ing 0wn the universe and God really will be dead. Omnipotent lay-about ****.
it's funny, since after over 6000 years of human existence, we haven't even figured out how to conquer 'small' obstacles, such as sickness... and things keep popping up all over the place (look at AIDS for example... a small virus, which affects only the immune system, and humans are powerless) and of course there's the ever-present 'resource-problem' that we seem to be facing.
no, in my opinion, mankind will eventually have colonies in space, etc. but i still can't see us '0wning' the universe... since man hasn't even traveled out of the solar system... and when we do we have to go through the galaxy, etc.
i dunno, i just can't see that much human accomplishment, if within 6000 years (which is quite a long time) we have done nothing to the earth but destroy it, and we haven't even made many achievements
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...............
Science has only really come into it's own in the past 100 years. With the formation of a coherant rule-set for the way materials act and the formation of fields such as Quantum Mechanics, the human race is for the first time within arms-reach of kicking some galactic ass.
Did it ever occur to anyone that there've been no alien's making contact because as soon as they mastered FTL travel, things like matter-creation soon followed and thus they never had to go exploring beyond their home-world?
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it's true what you say though... and it is true that mankind has come very far over the last 100-200 years... but think of it this way
they have come very far in comparison to what? to traveling at Mach 5? in that case perhaps, but we're not even CLOSE to traveling the speed of light/colonizing other planets...
but the only way this argument will be won is for time to tell, and i agree it's very possible what you say will happen in the next few years an0n :nod: only time will tell for sure though
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In the next few years we will be facing a global nuclear apocalypse for no real reason. So that's that. :sigh:
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
How many politicians and world leaders ever spare a thought for the future of the human species? How often does the leader of your country stop to think about the next rung on the evolutionary ladder, and how that will affect his or her citizen's descendants?
Journalist: Mr. President, how do we stop the epidemical forest fires in the US
George: Cut down the trees
we all see where he is going.
This species NEEDS to get its arse in gear and get over nation-state divisions.
Agreed. And we are already moving that way, see the many global, or at least continental alliances. For example the UN (prolly the weakest of them all, because all they do is send out good-will messengers, who nobody listens to), the NATO, the European Union.
And if we are going to the unified species list, then I really, REALLY hope it's not going to be the by American-Russian-InsertSuperpowerhere principle, where everyone will be speaking and thinking English, or Russian, or Chinese or whatever. I am in for it, unless the little people (like us, Estonians) don't go the way of the Apaches. We've been through this before, with the USSR, and we DEFINATELY don't want to do this again.
Besides we even don't have a space program. We do make great space food (USSR astronauts used our products in the 1960-es)
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How many politicians and world leaders ever spare a thought for the future of the human species? How often does the leader of your country stop to think about the next rung on the evolutionary ladder, and how that will affect his or her citizen's descendants?
That is not really their business at all; the whole purpose and relative reason for existence of the national government is only to ensure the survival and general well-being of that particular nation. The leader(s) will (and should) only think about the future descendants as they will contribute to that particular national society.
And if we are going to the unified species list, then I really, REALLY hope it's not going to be the by American-Russian-InsertSuperpowerhere principle, where everyone will be speaking and thinking English, or Russian, or Chinese or whatever. I am in for it, unless the little people (like us, Estonians) don't go the way of the Apaches. We've been through this before, with the USSR, and we DEFINATELY don't want to do this again.
Well, that is exactly what we are headed for, if it will be some sort of GTA-like thing at any rate. Even in today's world with all these independent nations, all of the people are subtly influenced by the predominant culture anyway whether or not they realize/like it, which in most cases is linked to the most powerful nation. (this is why some say that the world is slowly becoming "Americanized;" it is inevitable on a large scale)
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
How many politicians and world leaders ever spare a thought for the future of the human species? How often does the leader of your country stop to think about the next rung on the evolutionary ladder, and how that will affect his or her citizen's descendants?
Hitler did and look what happened
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i think he means in an altruistic manner.
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Anyone remember that Voyager episode where the captain and the other guy evolved into catfish?
Man that was fun...
Me, I think we'll discover that the human species won't evolve any longer until it has need to. Right now were pritty optimally adapted and evolution is on a break. But lets say theres a nuclear war and the Earth's climate changes. If some of us survive, in time humans might begin to rapidly evolve again into something else that can survive in the new enviroment. I know its an old theory but IMHO it seems like a safe and plausible theory. :)
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If Rome hadn't collapsed, I see a moon landing in 1869..
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things happen, there is no 'where we should be'. There is where we are, and where we hope to go.
In response to previous posts in this thread, human advance in technology seems to be parabolic. We are advancing more rapidly every day.
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Actually I would say it is kind of exponential, since the progress in the last hundred years has far, far outweighed that in all of the rest of history. :D
i think he means in an altruistic manner.
same thing when you get down to it though... :p :D