Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Razor on November 15, 2002, 02:31:40 pm
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Ok I was talking to Reaper today about FS1 lucifer and he claims that the lucifer HAD beams in original 98 FS1, while I claimed that it actually had flux cannons (more commonly known as Shivan Super Lasers) so tell us, which one is right. We aren't regarding the destruction of Vasuda prime animation here. Just the game.
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Those were beams just like in FS2.
Who said i said Beams like in FS2?? They were beams, but not programmed well... and they sucked.. they went slowly to the target, like snail...
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Said in the tech description that they were flux cannons, but it also said there were three of them...
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Hmmm, maybe flux cannons are something else... But why in hell aren't any Flux cannons in FS2... is Flux cannon and Beam samed thing?
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but according to FS2 they were beams, and considering, we usually prefer FS2 canon to FS1 canon, they were beams
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Wait a minute. You can't take in concideration FS2. I was talking just about FS1. They weren't beams dude. They were flux cannons, lasers with a very long trail. If they were beams, they would fre continiously and they would have warmup and looping firing sound. So, no, in my opinion, the fs1 lucifer main weapons were flux cannons.
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They were meant to be beams, but they were actually flux cannons in disguise. :) They had no characteristics like the beams we know in FS2. It was a simple shot with a very long tail, easily done.
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They were beams. They didn't look much like beams, but if they could have been beams they would have been. :thepimp: Freespace Port...
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Originally posted by Razor
If they were beams, they would fre continiously and they would have warmup and looping firing sound. So, no, in my opinion, the fs1 lucifer main weapons were flux cannons.
I really hate quoting my-self but I had to. :rolleyes:
GE I am talking about them being original beams like they are in Freespace 2 not some imitation or something. Now are they real beams (fs2 like) or not?
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They are flux cannons, the beam that shattered vasuda prime was the weapon on the side of the Lucifer, it had four small arms around the cannon that looked almost alive. It was in the fs2 intro movie... though i beleave on the wrong side. That was a beam, never used in game. Its forward cannons where flux cannons, in fs2 they are SReds because flux beams were out of date, and lucy was never used anyways in fs2. never once were those arm cannons called beams.
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I'm gonna take a leap of faith and say that the Lucy had flux cannons.
I'm also going to say that the flux cannons were prototype beam weapons. After the loss of the Lucy, the Shivans still in their home space managed to make improved beam weapons by modifing flux cannons in the time between FS1 and FS2.
And after studying captured Shivan technology and seeing the Lucy's flux cannons in action, us adaptable little Terrans and Vasudans made roughly the same leap in scientific invention in the same 32 years.
Of course, the Shivans' beams and our beams aren't the same; theirs cause more damage and are red in color, while ours are relatively wimpy and are green and yellow. :D
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Sides if I recall Fs1 weapons.tbl labeled them flux cannons also.
Been a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time since I've looked in that thing thou.
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I really wouldn't worry about it too much. At the end of the day, what ever the Lucifer had, 'proper' beams are what we have today.
I say hoo-rah.
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FS1 weapons.tbl ;
Real FreeSpace weapons!
; From weapons.doc, Adam's spec.
; 7 Light Laser Cannon: Much like Descent lasers. Less powerful than Heavies.
; 7 Heavy Laser Cannon: Self-explanatory. Fires slightly slower.
; 7 Mass Driver Cannon: Fires shells of some sort, but oddly uses energy, since it's a cannon.
; 7 Flail Cannon: Rapid-fire energy-based weapon. Shoots many smaller, rapid lasers.
; 7 Neutron Flux Cannon: Similar to Heavy Lasers, but more punch. Could use a better name here.
;
Pretty useless, that.
Interesting, though, that the FS2 tbl entry for the Lucifer uses SReds, isn't it? Hmmm......
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Interesting, though, that the FS2 tbl entry for the Lucifer uses SReds, isn't it? Hmmm......
Yeah, I laughed my ass off for five whole minutes when I saw that...after I picked my jaw off the floor. SReds on a friggin' Lucifer? What dimwit thought that up?:rolleyes:
Screw it, the Lucifer is carrying the LRed as its default beam weapons in DatDB (and they will get plenty of use, I can assure you. ;7) Thank God I can change the ships.tbl file. :nod:
I would have put BFReds on the Lucifer, but that seemed a little much. :D
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
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keeping with my prefered theme of the shivans being just plain better than us, i say they were (story-wise) beam cannons (BFReds I like to say they were :) ) but programming-wise, they sucked and didn't know what to do with them.
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So according to all this you guys said,
- Lucifer didn't have beam cannons in FS1. It had flux cannons (Super Lasers)
- In fs2 Lucifer had SReds instead of Super Lasers.
Am I right?
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I think they were lasers in a earlier form of developement.
Edit: ops, said lasers when I meant beams.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
I think they were lasers
:yes: :nod: That's what I was talking about the whole time.
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I'd say they're beams, and were supposed to be like the beams turned out in FS2. Too bad nobody knew how to make that effect yet...so V got clever and launched an invisible missile with a really long trail.
Or not, maybe...
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I said Flux just because FS1 says flux
But you have to take into consideration the fact that the GTVA got its beam technology from the Lucifer's remains... so, that evidence sort of supports the Beam theory.
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Originally posted by vadar_1
They are flux cannons, the beam that shattered vasuda prime was the weapon on the side of the Lucifer, it had four small arms around the cannon that looked almost alive. It was in the fs2 intro movie... though i beleave on the wrong side. That was a beam, never used in game. Its forward cannons where flux cannons, in fs2 they are SReds because flux beams were out of date, and lucy was never used anyways in fs2. never once were those arm cannons called beams.
Yeah. what he said.
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Originally posted by Shiva Archon
I'd say they're beams, and were supposed to be like the beams turned out in FS2. Too bad nobody knew how to make that effect yet...so V got clever and launched an invisible missile with a really long trail.
Or not, maybe...
there ya go. It says somewhere that beams were created by studying the meson deposits left at places where the lucifer killed stuff. The engine simply wasn't advanced enough at the time to create a 'beam'.
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Originally posted by Su-tehp
Screw it, the Lucifer is carrying the LRed as its default beam weapons in DatDB (and they will get plenty of use, I can assure you. ;7) Thank God I can change the ships.tbl file. :nod:
Why do that when you can use this (http://www.angelfire.com/space/sesquipedalian/misc/lucybeam/lucybeamscreenie.html)? :D
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Hey! You stole it!
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsport/images/goodies/lucybeam.jpg)
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But mine looks better. ;7
And uses tile translation!
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
And uses tile translation!
yay!!! my code is being used
and they were beams, just becase of an engine limitation was a laser projectile used, and it is quite obvius that it was suposed to be a beam, but to be technical about it FS1 had no true beam weapons
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Originally posted by Bobboau
yay!!! my code is being used
I've made a few with your code actually. I love it! :D
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Technically speaking, they were indeed just lasers with missile trails.
Thing is though, they could have been made to look much more like beams by simply making the speed very high. The current speed setting made them look like some sort of missile trail moving by itself...
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So, if I read this right, the shivans didn't have beam technology for one of two reasons.
A. it simply didn't exist and they used the best tech available (flux). Which means the developed beams at the same time we did.
B. They did have beams but simply decided not to use them on the capital ships. Which, to make an analogy of it, would be like the US going to war againest a nation withut a modern army. (Not that big a stretch eh?) And using old outdated weapons, just cause we don't need to use all the new shiny stuff.
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
So, if I read this right, the shivans didn't have beam technology for one of two reasons.
A. it simply didn't exist and they used the best tech available (flux). Which means the developed beams at the same time we did.
B. They did have beams but simply decided not to use them on the capital ships. Which, to make an analogy of it, would be like the US going to war againest a nation withut a modern army. (Not that big a stretch eh?) And using old outdated weapons, just cause we don't need to use all the new shiny stuff.
C. Volition didn't create beam weapon code in FS1, and thus the Shivan Super Laser was based on the flux cannon. But someone at V didn't really like the way it looked, and the decision was made to upgrade the engine for FS2 by writing new code that produced more satisfactory results. Beams as we know and love them were the result.
That's all there is to it. Looking for some sort of reason within the FS-universe is about as silly as looking for a reason why the technology in Enterprise looks so much more advanced than the technology of the original Star Trek: the actual and only answer is because one was made in the 1960's, and one was not. In our case, FS2 had better tech for beams than FS1, that's all.
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STAR TREK ISNT REAL? :mad: :eek2:
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FREESPACE ISN'T REAL?!! :eek:
:D
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HTF?? How the hell can the gtva use the lucifers remains to develop Beam Cannon seeing as they're in SOL , (plus using standard fs laws of universal existence the debris will p00f outta being after about 5 mins) Also WHERE does it say that Beam cannon where developed using Lucy bits in the main camp ?? btw in FRED1 Lucy beam is shivan super laser, Vas main cap gun is Vasudan Flux cannon...... Only reason as stated is FS1 code old, The cutscenes show how the original lucy cannon was meant to look, and in fs1 it only had two forward firing beams, and the two side things with four arms were hangars as shown when the lucy destroyed Tombaugh station...... :thepimp:
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I know I will regret this
Damn right, me too, now im all Riled..... Frickin fs2oobies, Geez back i nthe days me and my appollo..... Man we had to make do without shields and intersytem drive, bleedin young'uns.... $^%£$^£%$^
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*walks in and reads first post*
Can't be bothered reading rest, was up to 2am watching Star Wars DVDs.
In STORY terms, the Lucy had beam cannons. In actual game-engine mechanics, she fired what was essentially two invisible warheads with big f*k-off trails.
*lets head fall back on desk*
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In STORY terms, the Lucy had beam cannons. In actual game-engine mechanics, she fired what was essentially two invisible warheads with big f*k-off trails.
*lets head fall back on desk*
There you go. But which is to be taken as the "correct" one? :p :D
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Originally posted by Colonol Dekker
HTF?? How can the gtva use the lucifers remains to develop Beam Cannon seeing as they're in SOL , (plus using standard fs laws of universal existence the debris will p00f outta being after about 5 mins) Also WHERE does it say that Beam cannon where developed using Lucy bits in the main camp ??
FS2: "According to declassified transmissions, the mission succeeded."
Perhaps the beam schematics were included in the classified transmissions. ;7
Has anyone ever made a campaign that takes place in Sol between FS1 and FS2? We don't really know what's going on from canon, and it would be a great artistic opportunity.
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MIndGames starts before the events of FS2 but the main campaign is set a couple of years afterwards. The whole campaign is set in Sol though so it's pretty much what you were talking about :)
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
C. Volition didn't create beam weapon code in FS1, and thus the Shivan Super Laser was based on the flux cannon. But someone at V didn't really like the way it looked, and the decision was made to upgrade the engine for FS2 by writing new code that produced more satisfactory results. Beams as we know and love them were the result.
That's all there is to it. Looking for some sort of reason within the FS-universe is about as silly as looking for a reason why the technology in Enterprise looks so much more advanced than the technology of the original Star Trek: the actual and only answer is because one was made in the 1960's, and one was not. In our case, FS2 had better tech for beams than FS1, that's all.
:wtf: "It doesn't need to make any sense! It's a video game!"
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
:wtf: "It doesn't need to make any sense! It's a video game!"
I suppose you enjoyed Battlefield Earth then. It doesn`t need to make sense either, it's just a film.
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Sarcasm, Karajorma. Karajorma, sarcasm. Now that you two have met, reread my post ;)
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Somebody really needs to make that Lucifer with the beam on the side. Then the fighterbays could be put on the bottom, like the hecate.
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
Sarcasm, Karajorma. Karajorma, sarcasm. Now that you two have met, reread my post ;)
I said someone liked Battlefield Earth and yet you think I`m not familiar with the concept of sarcasm? :D
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Why do that when you can use this (http://www.angelfire.com/space/sesquipedalian/misc/lucybeam/lucybeamscreenie.html)? :D
MY GOD! THAT'S AMAZING!!!
Sesq, you and I have GOT to talk, my man...:D
Does this zipfile have a readme? I don't know crap about any source code modifications or how they work...
And what the heck does SSLBeam stand for, anyway?:confused: :D
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Zip does have a readme, yes. Treat it just like any other weapon mod.
As for the source code modifications, one need only download fs2_open version 3.3 and use it instead of 1.2 (the patched commercial version). If you use the SSLBeam with 1.2, it'll look and work fine. If you run it with 3.3, it'll look fantastic (i.e. with moving textures). Basically requires no special work on your part, just a decision of which version of the exe to double-click on.
What I've done is rename the original exe from FS2.exe to origFS2.exe, and then rename fs2_open_3_3.exe (what you get when you download it from the SCP forum) to FS2.exe. Then it starts from the launcher just like the original did.
SSLBeam stands for Shivan Super Laser Beam.
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Does it have the same damage-over-time proportion as the Shivan Super Laser? Because mine does.
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Originally posted by Bobboau
yay!!! my code is being used
and they were beams, just becase of an engine limitation was a laser projectile used, and it is quite obvius that it was suposed to be a beam, but to be technical about it FS1 had no true beam weapons
Bingo! It WAS ment to be a beam but it isn't because of limitations and maybe not knowing how to make a beam. I dunno. Anyway. This is the conclusion. lucifer's main weapon IS NOT a beam. It's a alaser.
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Originally posted by Razor
Bingo! It WAS ment to be a beam but it isn't because of limitations and maybe not knowing how to make a beam. I dunno. Anyway. This is the conclusion. lucifer's main weapon IS NOT a beam. It's a alaser.
It's the laser that causes damage like a beam!
Kinda like Chunky Soup (TM), the soup that eats like a meal.;) :lol: :D
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Kinda like Chunky Soup (TM), the soup that eats like a meal.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
meh.. I always thought it was obvious that it was beams though.. Why would the Lucy have its own special weapon that is gayer than beams if it simply was meant to be a beam, V just didn't know how to make it.
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I just opened my FS1 table... Best weapon is the Shivan Super laser... So this goes 1 of 2 ways.
(1) By technical limitations on V's part (not the shivans) they were simply Super Lasers...
or
(2) We know what they are but they represented Shivan beams in the Lucifer's case... I voted Beams cause as a pilot in the Great War that's what I faced 32 years ago (GTVA time, actually it was like 3 weeks ago latest battle :lol: )
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Does it have the same damage-over-time proportion as the Shivan Super Laser? Because mine does.
:nod:
Carefully crafted in every detail.
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
So, if I read this right, the shivans didn't have beam technology for one of two reasons.
A. it simply didn't exist and they used the best tech available (flux). Which means the developed beams at the same time we did.
B. They did have beams but simply decided not to use them on the capital ships. Which, to make an analogy of it, would be like the US going to war againest a nation withut a modern army. (Not that big a stretch eh?) And using old outdated weapons, just cause we don't need to use all the new shiny stuff.
C. The Lucy was the only ship in that scout fleet that had beam cannons. Keep in mind that scout fleets are usually away for long periods of time. Also keep in mind that the Lucifer was the only ship of its kind to be sighted by the GTVA.
As for the location of the planet fragging cannons...
(http://vertigo1-2.freeyellow.com/Lucy_top.jpg)
That clear enough for ya? :)
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Originally posted by Vertigo1
C. The Lucy was the only ship in that scout fleet that had beam cannons. Keep in mind that scout fleets are usually away for long periods of time. Also keep in mind that the Lucifer was the only ship of its kind to be sighted by the GTVA.
And that makes sense storywise?
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and here's me thiking that FS2 intro was just another screw up..
Doesn't it in one of the cutscenes show the Lucy killing Vasuda with the foward cannons?
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Doesn't it show in one of the cutscenes show the Lucy killing Vasuda with the foward cannons?
Not quite, KT. In the cutscene involving the bombardment of vasuda Prime, we see (at ground level) a city being bombarded by a silver-blue beam from orbit, then we see the Lucy (in the background) in orbit around vasuda as one or two vasudan transports try to flee the system. We never actually see the Lucy fire on Vasuda in that cutscene.
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So maybe it was the alkyhol talking.. so what??
:p
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Originally posted by vadar_1
They are flux cannons, the beam that shattered vasuda prime was the weapon on the side of the Lucifer, it had four small arms around the cannon that looked almost alive. It was in the fs2 intro movie... though i beleave on the wrong side. That was a beam, never used in game. Its forward cannons where flux cannons, in fs2 they are SReds because flux beams were out of date, and lucy was never used anyways in fs2. never once were those arm cannons called beams.
Nah what I believe is that was an older scout fleet. You never really throw away things.
The Shivans obviously had extremely powerful weapons for quite sometime... not a simple upgrade like you say.
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who gives a flux....:eek:
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This might be of some use (http://home.att.net/~clay.h/fs2/beamfaq.htm#Q16)
I dunno... I technically don't think the Super Laser of FS1 was actually a beam. [V] may have intended it be a beam, but it looked more like a missile with an extremely long tail.
The way it moves is too.... missile and flux-like to actually resemble a beam. Beams move so fast that they power up, fire, then instantly hit the target. The SSL moves slowly.... like flux...
Me shutup now
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I think Derelict did a good remakeing for the Lucifer with the Narlahotep(sp?).
2 BFReds in the front, 2 LReds on ether side and 1 LRed in the back.
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*Goes off to make firing point on side for bigass blue beam*
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Originally posted by Hades
Said in the tech description that they were flux cannons, but it also said there were three of them...
For the last time, that is FALSE... I spent 2 weeks getting to know the fs1 default lucy, flying around it in a fred mission, and watching EVERY turret fire... Call me the Lucifer Expert
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I know there are only two of them. i was pointing out that V said something, then they said something else which makes you doubt that either one is correct.:D
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Spending two weeks getting aquainted with good 'ol Lucifer, eh? :D
Ah, you could do worse. *cough*Hecate*cough*
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Originally posted by Slasher
Spending two weeks getting aquainted with good 'ol Lucifer, eh? :D
Ah, you could do worse. *cough*Hecate*cough*
:D
Seriously, though. If you really want to see if the Lucy has three fluxes, CHECK THE FRED ENTRY! On a standard Lucifer, only Turret1 and Turret2 are labeled as Shivan Super Laser. Maybe what [V] was intending was for Turret15 (rear and bottom turret) was supposed to be the planet waster (backed up from the direction the Lucy was pointing in the Vasuda Command Brief).
Don't get me wrong. :nervous: I'm not a nerd. :D
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I am. :D
Have a look at the shivasubkiller cbani in FS1. You can see very clearly a cage-like structure on the side, glowing at the tip, that isn't present in the actual model.
You can see the same structure in the FS2 intro (when the beam charges up) and the FS1 ending movie (when the front half gets chopped off; you can actually see it on both sides).
So :v: intended the cagelike structure to be on the Lucifer, but for some reason it never got transferred onto the in-game model.
The cage-like structure, apparently, is supposed to be a beam emitter of the same type seen in FS2 (based on the FS2 intro and also on the fact that the weapon that nuked Vasuda looked like a beam).
In conclusion, go look at Vertigo1's diagram. I think he's got it all figured out. :yes: :)
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Spending two weeks getting aquainted with good 'ol Lucifer, eh? :D
Ah, you could do worse. *cough*Hecate*cough*
I did that with the Hatshepsut, which is how I discovered that turret inside the hull. :rolleyes: :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
I did that with the Hatshepsut, which is how I discovered that turret inside the hull. :rolleyes: :D
:wtf: Eh?
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I'd say it's missile with a long trail. Not a laser, as it doesn't go light-speed. :p
But that's because FS1 doesn't have the beam code.
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Call me a frootloop, but i cant open my FS1 tables in notepad same as my FS2 ones, how the hell are you guys doing this?
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When they open in Notepad, do they look weird? It's because the fs1 tables are encoded, the fs2 ones aren't. When you extract them, make sure .vpview decodes them also.
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It's great you wasted your time flying around the lucy... but here's the thing. In two mission briefings... the lucy fires from her side.
The lucifer must have been highly experimental and not just some **** up by V because they didn't have the tech.
Think about it, why wasn't all the ships shielded? The lucy was special.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
and here's me thiking that FS2 intro was just another screw up..
Doesn't it in one of the cutscenes show the Lucy killing Vasuda with the foward cannons?
No, we just see a blue beam hit the surface, then it cuts to the Lucifer in orbit with the left side FACING the planet.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
So :v: intended the cagelike structure to be on the Lucifer, but for some reason it never got transferred onto the in-game model.
polycount, most likely... the other *cough* Excuse *cough* reason could be that it is only deployed at certain times.
Incidentally, I think that ani was taken from a dropped cutscene, if you look at the renders on the descent-network site. Possibly the destruction of Vasuda Prime one.
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That would have been an awesome cutscene.:D
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Incidentally, I think that ani was taken from a dropped cutscene, if you look at the renders on the descent-network site. Possibly the destruction of Vasuda Prime one.
Hit the nail on the head, aldo.
If any of you have the FS Ref Bible, the author noted that several cutscenes were dropped, including one with the Lucifer obliterating Tombaugh Station (would've been a darn good one too). Probably the footage from the Command Brief is from the former cutscene...
*thats enough out of me*
*runs*
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The news report, political meeting and science lab cutscenes would have been ttoally awesome; it's too bad that they were dropped... :(
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Yup.
Ever wonder what they dropped from FS2?
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Yeah it's interesting. Did they ever release a bible for inter FS1 - FS2?
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1. The turrets themselves are flux cannons. You can call what comes out of them "beams", if you wish, though I don't think that holds up as a beam connects with it's target virtually instantaneously.
2. The "beam" coming out of the side of the lucifer never actually comes out of the side of the lucifer (the eyeball-looking thing). We only see it "charging up". A reactor perhaps?
The lucy kicks thy bottom well enough without beams. lets not give it any more ammunition than it already has.