Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: kasperl on November 16, 2002, 05:13:24 am
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we'been talking about his on the freespace watch forum,but i'd like your opninion to:
cappella supernova
i've just tought of a little problem with the supernova of capella.
first a question: how many light years is the nearest system from capella?
now the problem. when a star goes supernova, a pulse goes away from it at near light speed. i read this in a dutch science magasine "kijk". any inhabited planet within 50lightyears as a pretty big problem. once the wave its the planet, the people on that planet would have to ware blackout gear for a century! the exact reasons on wy and how are a bit difficult to translate, but the basics are this:
the wave of cosmic radiation from the suprnova would create a large surplus of nitrogen oxides, wich would eat theyre way true the ozon layer. it would take the ozon layer about a century to regenerate.
now this is based on a earth like planet, nut it would it every planet/station/ship pretty hard. this might give a lot of problems for the GTVA, because they would have to evac every single person within a fifty light year radius from cappela!
perhaps is this a good base for a campaign story line?
anyway, the thread is located at:
http://www.hard-light.net/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=7776 (http://www.hard-light.net/vwbb/showthread.php?threadid=7776)
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It is a good premise to point out. I do believe that it has been discussed on these forums before, about what impact a supernova would have on GTVA space, here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,345.0.html). It's a little old, so the topic could surely use some rehashing.
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Basically you describe part of the plotline for The Mercury Affair (my own campaign). However as far as I could figure out the closest major system is over 36 light years from Capella so since TMA is set 6 years after capella none of the major systems are affected.
However if you want to write camapign where Vega, say is the closest to Capella I wouldn`t complain about the science being wrong as long as the story was good enough.
If [V] can get away with missing 3 stars out of the capella system I think we can forgive you for moving a few light years :D
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Originally posted by karajorma
If [V] can get away with missing 3 stars out of the capella system I think we can forgive you for moving a few light years :D
:lol:
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One question: Wouldn't the wave dissipate quite a bit before it even gets near us?
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It would. But there is so much explosive force that it's like the difference from sitting on top of a bomb or being 200m away from it.
At this distance the explosive force has disappated but there is still enough force to do you some serious damage.
Although a supernova might be far away it puts out an enormous amount of energy. The supernova that left behind the crab nebula was so bright that it was visible for 23 days in daylight even though it occured 6300LY away.
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What i can tell it can destroy any life of the planet if its in its way, maybee 40 to 70 years, to reach the nearest planet, or more years, depending speed, distance and space disturbance that could change the movement of the wave.
Hey, there are many sites that are astronomical, so maybee it can tell you something about supernovas, I have this magazine of Discover that explains some things about a star exploded, the December Edition of this year, i didnt read it yet, go find something, in the magazines or in the internet, is a good start, ¿no?
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I posted a load of stuff on the VWBB version of this thread. Hmmm. Might as well copy it over here. :)
Originally posted by karajorma
The Capella supernova's effects on other systems is a minor theme in my own campaign (The Mercury Affair) so I did a little thinking about the matter a while back.
Since I don`t have any major systems under threat in my campaign and I would love to play a campaign based on that premise here's all the ideas I came up with in the hope I can spark some interest.
1) I found a document about supernova risks online which kasperi might be interested in. I`ve uploaded it to my site and you can find it here (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/karajorma/freespace/SuperNovaRisksToEarth.txt). It's quite technical so be warned. :D
2) Capella is 42.2 light years from Earth. This puts Earth within the danger zone but means that the GTVA has no way to warn them.
3) There are no good star maps with distances on between the stars that I could find but as far as I could figure out using the starmap from the game Frontier (which is fairly accurate close to Sol) Capella is about 36 years away from the nearest FS2 Era GTVA system (IIRC it was Sirius but don`t quote me on that). There is certainly no GTVA system within 9 LY of Capella.
4) Since the shivans made Capella go nova despite it being nowhere near that point in it's life the supernova may be much less destructive than a normal supernova, of course ANY supernova is bad new when you are in that system but the effects on outside systems may be less. So basically you can make the nova do as little damage to the GTVA systems as you want. You could even have it do more damage if you want since it is after all a non-standard supernova.
5) If the capellan supernova was not what the shivans were trying to achive (remember they did lose a couple of sathanses when the star went nova as well as all the forces battling the GTVA) they may have put there own systems at risk.
6) It might be possible to repair the atmosphere of a supernova damaged world by placing a giant electrical sparker in the upper atmosphere and feeding it lots of oxygen. What effect this would have on the planet though I don`t know :)
7) Since the wavefront of the explosion travels at lightspeed it would actually take several hours to travel from one side of the system to the other. I`ve based a few missions on this but I`m sure other people have ideas.
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It is doubtful, in my opinion, that the Capella supernova puts any GTVA system at risk.
The wavefront of a a supernova is an ellipsoid with its longest diameter in the same plane as the stars rotational equator. The wavefront is a finite amount of matter and energy projected at very high speeds.
The more massive the particles the more quickly they become effected by other sources of mass. The lower mass particles continue on with a lower percieved energy loss. Anything within the ecliptic of Capella would be shielded from the more massive particles the supernova by Capella's Oort cloud. A signifigant amount of highly charged particles would be absorbed here too.
As the wavefront travels it becomes more attenuated, due to simple geometry: as radius of wavefront doubles, front squares. Thus the farther away, the fewer highly charged particles per square meter are involved. Over lightyears, this mass/energy density drops to zero. If you knew the original mass of Capella, you could calculate, very easily, the distance at which the dropoff reaches zero+epsilon (ie, when the effect becomes indistinguishable from cosmic background radiation). That distance will be signifigantly less than 30 lightyears, however.
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Capella has 2.7 times the mass of Sol.
Whether that is enough to cause a supernova big enough to cause serious damage to a GTVA system is beyond my limited astrophysics but there are plenty of scientists who believe that supernovae may have caused extinctions on Earth (http://physicsweb.org/article/news/6/2/11)
The other thing is that since the capellan supernova was artificially induced it could actually output more radiation than a normal supernova would.
Lastly as I said before who cares if you move sirius 20 or 30 light years closer to capella to make a nice story. We`ve forgiven [V] for missing out 3 stars already :)
EDIT : Just noticed you`re mostly talking about cosmic rays from capella. I never considered them really. I was more worried about the damage from gamma and x-rays since they would get there first. Couldn`t you expect damage from them?
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i jsut found the article form the science mag, already on the web. look at this link:
http://www.kijk.nl/artikel.jsp?art=3146
it's in dutch, but some people requested the original article.
i hope you can translate it.
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.........Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ships in the final cutscene seemed to take a while to explode in the nova's blast-wave, so I'm guessing if a Rakshasa (?) can take the blast for a few seconds at only a few AU's, then a planet 5ly away would get little more than a small heat-wave.
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Yah, either that or the ole' artistic liscence playing silly buggers again...
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Originally posted by an0n
.........Correct me if I'm wrong, but the ships in the final cutscene seemed to take a while to explode in the nova's blast-wave, so I'm guessing if a Rakshasa (?) can take the blast for a few seconds at only a few AU's, then a planet 5ly away would get little more than a small heat-wave.
Of course. We aren`t talking about the supernova blowing up planets light years away :)
Ecosystems are delicate things. A small change can result in a huge disaster further down the line.
An example of this is the hole in the ozone layer, caused by (relatively) small amounts of CFC's breaking down the ozone. It's thought that gamma and x-rays might have a similar effect. Enough of the ozone layer goes and the planet would get wiped down to simple UV resistant bacteria.
The problem is that AFAIK no one is certain how much radiation you need to wipe out the ozone layer but it's possible that a supernova could do it.
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the problem isn't the radiation itself, but the nitrogen oxides created by it. don't aks me how, but the radiation creates nitrogen oxides wich attack the ozone layer. after that, it will the ozone layer about a century to regenerate. (at leasrt, thats what the article says)
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The actuall intensity of the radiation from the nova can be calculated... Intesity=power/area, if i remember right. As the wave, assuming it is just one wave, spreads out from the supernova, it should (in theory) expand as a sphere. Therefor the power a point on the sphere will be total nova power divided by surface area of sphere from shockwave... my maths aint great but that should be roughly right.
r(radius) = 5ly = 3*10^8 X 60X60X24X365.25 X 5 =4.733*10^16m
Surface area of sphere = 4*pie*radius^2
Surface area of shockwave = 4*pie*(4.733*10^16)^2
=2.8157*10^34 square meters.
Therefor, the power of radiation upon one square meter is 1/2.81*10^34 times the total radiation.
Now, ultra violet radiation is made of photons, which travel at the speed of light... here's where my physics knowledge stops... so i'll use the equation E=MC^2 to calculate the energy produced by the star.
:confused:
...the mass of the sun is 2*10^30 KG. A star three times the mass of our sun is required to start a supernova, or atleast a black hole.... or maybee that was density... so cappella should have weighed roughly 6*10^30KG.
Therefor the energy of the radiation produced, assuming all of the star was converted to energy, which wouldnt happen cause there would still be mass for a small neutron star left behind (i think), E=6.0*10^30 X (3*10^8)^2
=5.4*10^49 J
And so the energy of the radiation falling upon one square meter at 5lys distance is... 5.4*10^49 J X 1/2.81*10^34
=1.9217*10^15 J
Hmmm. Thats a ****-load of energy. That cant ve right. The main source of error would be in the E=MC^2 equation, particularly the mass used. Lets say only 1/100000000000 of the mass is converted to radiation energy, and the rest buggers off to form a black hole or something.
Then the mass used is 6*10^19KG, which is roughly 1/10000th the mass of the earth.
New energy = 5.4*10^36J
...over one square meter at 5ly away : 192J ...which seems a better figure
So the intesity of radiation on a planet 5ly away would be 192W/M^2 (watts per square meter)
This is roughly as much radiation as standing near a powerful light bulb, though most of that wouldn't be deadly gamma rays...
yes, i know, a monkey picking numbers out of a hat could probably get a more accurate answer, but if someone who knows there stuff would like to improve on that feel free :) ...try using the inverse square law for light intensity, i don't know.
My brain hurts
:shaking:
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Originally posted by karajorma
The other thing is that since the capellan supernova was artificially induced it could actually output more radiation than a normal supernova would.
Well, yes, it could. Radiation as we all know is a form of energy/matter and since energy can not be created nor destroyed, we rule out the possibility of the FS2 Capella supernova's artificial origin generating any more energy than simply what is put in by the Sathani. This means that yes, while the amount of radiation could go up, it would at most be equal to that of the normal capella supernova plus whatever is put into it by the Sathani. That would still spread itself thin well within 36 lightyears.
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***Warning! Warning! Sensors indicate a complete lack of knowledge being exhibited in this thread. Recommend removal from area. Sheer effects of black hole of knowledge may have destructive consequences.***
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originaly posted by Sesquipedalian:
***Warning! Warning! Sensors indicate a complete lack of knowledge being exhibited in this thread. Recommend removal from area. Sheer effects of black hole of knowledge may have destructive consequences.***
:rolleyes:
if you have a better ideae, come on and explain!
anyway, there isn't a black hole, cause IIRC somewhere someone says that in the place of capella there is a nuetron star. and there wouldn't be a nebula if there was a black hole, since the black hole would suck al the gasses in. i'm no good at maths, but i'll see if i can get my physics teacher to look in to this.
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Originally posted by kasperl
:rolleyes:
if you have a better ideae, come on and explain!
anyway, there isn't a black hole, cause IIRC somewhere someone says that in the place of capella there is a nuetron star. and there wouldn't be a nebula if there was a black hole, since the black hole would suck al the gasses in. i'm no good at maths, but i'll see if i can get my physics teacher to look in to this.
I'm not sure about the size of the Capella star which goes supernova, but I think I heard it was 3 times the mass of the Sun. If I remember correctly, the lower limit for a star to undergo a supernova is around 8 Solar masses. The Capella supernova was also artificially created, so it could change how much mass is ejected in the initial explosion. A star loses quite a lot of its original matter during the supernova, so Capella probably wouldn't have the necessary mass to create a neutron star or black hole, both of which require different degeneracy pressures to be overcome that are directly related to the remaining mass. The most likely outcome is that it still forms a white dwarf, as it naturally would have.
Just because a black hole forms doesn't mean that a nebula can't be created as well. Over time, some of the ejected material will disappear as the gravitational pull of the black hole sucks it in, but that would likely take millions of years.
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The Capella system is a very large and complicated system. In the center there is a binary star couple of two orange giants revolving around their common center of gravity. Towards the outside of the system there are up to 8 seperate, smaller stars orbiting the two central ones.
Now try to explain the supernova scenario with that in mind :p
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Assuming the masses of the 8 outer stars are quite small compared to the two large ones, they'll probably all be expelled from the system. The binary stars will stay together as long as the ejected mass from the exploding star is less than half of the combined, pre-supernova masses of the two stars.
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Originally posted by LtNarol
Well, yes, it could. Radiation as we all know is a form of energy/matter and since energy can not be created nor destroyed, we rule out the possibility of the FS2 Capella supernova's artificial origin generating any more energy than simply what is put in by the Sathani. This means that yes, while the amount of radiation could go up, it would at most be equal to that of the normal capella supernova plus whatever is put into it by the Sathani. That would still spread itself thin well within 36 lightyears.
Your quote is wrong. Energy can be created or destroyed but only by conversion to or from matter. Who's to say that the subspace processes used to trigger the supernova didn`t involve or cause some degree of total conversion. The maximum amount of energy that could be put out by the supernova is that contained in capella's mass + that put in by the shivans. Betespete's already worked that amount out for me and it's huge.
Even if you don`t rely on total conversion (And I don`t) the normal processes which trigger a supernova were not followed in this case. We're deep in the realms of sci-fi here and I don`t think it's too much of a stretch to say that what the shivans did resulted in a supernova that was 2 or 3 times more powerful than a normal one would have been. The supernova doesn`t even need to be more powerful over all. The supernova could be richer in gamma rays and x-rays but poorer in terms of mass ejected (thereby keeping the energy output of the supernova the same as a normal one) Who's to say?
Lastly and most importantly I suggested a larger (or smaller) than normal supernova only as a way of scaling the damage to other systems. You don`t need to do this. I`ve read tons of articles by trained astrophysicists that say that supernovae are a danger to surrounding systems.
Example 1 (http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99992311)
Example 2 (http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99991764)
And I`m certainly not going to argue with them that they must be wrong :) I only suggested scalling the nova up or down as a way of damaging nearby systems less or damaging systems further away. According to the few links I`ve found anything within 30LY is in deep trouble anyway.
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i'm gonna read the articles today or tommorow, soi'll be back after that to say what i think, btw, as anyone translatd the oorignial article, i'm pretty curious about your opinions.
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Originally posted by Executor
Assuming the masses of the 8 outer stars are quite small compared to the two large ones, they'll probably all be expelled from the system. The binary stars will stay together as long as the ejected mass from the exploding star is less than half of the combined, pre-supernova masses of the two stars.
Mostly correct, I'm not going to comment on the whole thread, because I think some of that Math is correct, most of the answers are already here...
What I do have to say, is that the present stars, and other celestial bodies (I still refuse to believe they're all stars, it's a well known fact that Jupiter actually EMITS energy, so it is possible that those 8 other bodies are super-gas giants, Of course this is unpopular scientific conjecture, so don't pay much attention to it :p) a very large quantity of the mass, and energy sprayed out from the supernova, would be absorbed by these bodies, considering the enormous gravitational forces that are balanced in that system, it's also likely the explosion would result in more 'streamers' like a Gyser (that doesn't go off regularly....just the once) being aimed in multiple directions because the rock is in the way in the other directions, primitive example I know, but if the star that went supernova (...hell it wouldn't even be super nova, it would just be nova and form a planetary nebula, unless the SJ's actually gave it more energy then was available, planetary stars, like our own, do not get large enough to create super nova's, even when they are towards the end of their cycles and the elements they contain are EXTREMELY Heavy...) in the centre of the system and the other bodies were spaced equi-distantly around it, then it would most likely be that about 60-70% of the energy from the nova wouldn't even escape the system, and that's not even accounting for the amount that's absorbed by the Oort Cloud, so we'll call it 70% including the Oort, take another 5 off for the distance between the systems and the possible dark matter encountered between them, THEN take off another 10% for the next Oort cloud, which would leave you with about 15% of the original blast, at least 10% of this would be easily handlable by the atmosphere of a planet like Earth, so long as it's not sufficiently thinner, there would only be 5% left to do damage, now the unfortunate thing about all this conjecture, is I really can't garantee the numbers AND beyond that, can't tell you how much it will affect our ecosystems.
What I can tell you, is the remaining energy, will primarily be Gamma, probably talking about 60% of it, then about 20-30 would be xray, the rest would be heat/light..
Of course I'm guessing, but it doesn't need to be taken as gospal :p
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it sounds pretty good, but i still think the damage is pretty high. i'm currently doeing some reading nt his, so i'll be back with more.
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I keep telling you. I`m not talking about the supernova destroying Earth or anything! I`m talking about gamma rays wiping out the ozone layer etc.
Once that happens high energy UV from the sun would be enough to wipe out all higher life on Earth that couldn`t find a way to protect itself.
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I don't know much physics (I'm a pure math guy :D) but let me see if I can explain some stuff at least qualitatively...
The black hole possibility can be ruled out, since it needs to exceed about three solar masses for the condensation to occur. However you will very likely get a neutron star at the core of the explosion. It will not have nearly as much mass as the original star, but the mass will be very tightly packed together, and the angular momentum generated by its incredibly fast rotation will also create a considerable centrifugal force, drawing even more stuff in.
On a side note, I remember that there was some FS1 campaign (can't remember the name) where the story told that the Shivans somehow harvested this ultra-dense material from the neutron star's surface and used it to build their ships.
Does anyone have the stats for the other star in the pair? If it is about the same size, mass, and so on, its outermost gases will start getting sucked up by the nearby neutron star over time.
Any planets within the system would obviously be completely vaporized into dust in a few minutes, but outside that it is a bit harder to say, since the shockwave will have dissipated and cooled quite a bit by the time it reaches another GTVA system.
Also, keep in mind that the Capella supernova was generated "artificially" and most stars of that mass would probably not explode like that, so it is possible that it will exhibit slightly different properties.
That's about all I know about this stuff. :p
I keep telling you. I`m not talking about the supernova destroying Earth or anything! I`m talking about gamma rays wiping out the ozone layer etc.
Once that happens high energy UV from the sun would be enough to wipe out all higher life on Earth that couldn`t find a way to protect itself.
Well by that time we probably would not be very reliant on the ozone layer anymore (if it is still around), seeing as there is a huge space trade economy by the FS2 period... ;)
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Originally posted by CP5670
Well by that time we probably would not be very reliant on the ozone layer anymore (if it is still around), seeing as there is a huge space trade economy by the FS2 period... ;)
I don`t see how a space trade economy will save you from all life on a particular planet being wiped out. Even with trade ships bring food and other materials which used to grow on the planet you would have a hard time feeding the population of a small planet let alone something like Earth's population. Even if if you do manage to ship enough food and put all the colonists in domes you still end up with a world reliant on outside help to survive and with lots of refugees leaving it.
That makes a great campaign setting :)
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yeah, I was basically thinking domed and underground cities; shouldn't be too hard to accomplish when they have millions of spaceships going everywhere. :D (and in space, the solar radiation is much more of a problem, so if they found a way to tackle that then no ozone layer is needed anymore) But there would certainly be some effect due to the radiation itself.
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Originally posted by CP5670
yeah, I was basically thinking domed and underground cities; shouldn't be too hard to accomplish when they have millions of spaceships going everywhere. :D (and in space, the solar radiation is much more of a problem, so if they found a way to tackle that then no ozone layer is needed anymore) But there would certainly be some effect due to the radiation itself.
Yeah but in space they solved the problem by putting everyone inside ships with thick armour that can survive an antimatter powered weapon going of next to it. Can`t see them doing that with a planet somehow :D
Anyway my main point is although the GTVA could do things about the supernovas effect on their systems it would have an effect (especially on systems close to the nova)
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Actually, any planet we wanted to colonise would probably need to be ecosided, you'd need to rip out all the old stuff, right down to the bacteria because they wouldn't be compatible with our biology (well, I think the chances are 99ish%)...so CP's pretty much correct anyway
I know you meant radiation, Kara hehe, the point is, the 5% that's left is the really high energy, and no mass particles, the Gamma/X-ray which is the most dangerous to the gene sequences in the body, and to other things like electronics, your point is very valid, i'm just trying to say there wouldn't be that much left..hehe..
It also wouldn't be too hard to construct a large (but thin) shield around the nova side of the planet, (it wasn't a supernova, i'm serious, go read up, that star never could have gone super nova ever, no matter what the shivan's did to it.... there's two types of novae, super and normal, our star will do a normal, generally shrinking back into a white drawf.
BTW, Kara, although your theory is very good, and by that I mean, one that I would have put money on a few years ago, the only way subspace would ever work, is if no subspace energy or matter could possibly interact with reality, it's extremely difficult to explain why, but ya'd need to go look up Unified Field Theory...
This thread has a lot of good theories...hehe
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
It also wouldn't be too hard to construct a large (but thin) shield around the nova side of the planet, (it wasn't a supernova, i'm serious, go read up, that star never could have gone super nova ever, no matter what the shivan's did to it.... there's two types of novae, super and normal, our star will do a normal, generally shrinking back into a white drawf.
BTW, Kara, although your theory is very good, and by that I mean, one that I would have put money on a few years ago, the only way subspace would ever work, is if no subspace energy or matter could possibly interact with reality, it's extremely difficult to explain why, but ya'd need to go look up Unified Field Theory...
I'm well aware that Capella is in completely the wrong part of a stars lifespan to go supernova but since that's what [V] did to it we have to live with it and accept that Capella went supernova.
I don`t think it mearly blew off it's outer layers as from what I`ve understood the transition from giant to dwarf takes many thousends of years and the blowing off of layers is a slow process completely like the violent end of capella in the cutscene. So we are left with the fact that capella went supernova impossible as that is and left with the problem of trying to explain how that could happen :D
IIRC in a star there are two main forces acting. The pull of gravity wants to contract the star into a much smaller space. The pressure exerted by the photons leaving the core prevents that from happening.
In a supernova the star stops producing photons cause Iron is the the most stable element and trying to fuse that actually requires energy rather than giving it out. The force of gravity wins and the star collapses.
Okay, so suppose the shivans somehow removed the photon pressure? Subspace disturbances were noted before the star went nova. Suppose the shivans were creating trillions of tiny entrances to subspace and sieving out the photons? Now there is nothing to counteract the pull of gravity and the star collapses.
What effect that would have on the supernova's damage both insystem and out of it is beyond me though :)
EDIT : Every definition I could find of a nova has nothing to do with single stars like the sun but instead refers to the accretion of matter on a white dwarf from a companion star (usually a red giant). Can anyone clarify if it is incorrect to say that the sun will go nova towards the end of its life?
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What I mean, is there are two types of star.
A Planetary one, these tend to be smaller, like our star.. and
An Stellar one, probably wrong name, stellar stars are like Betelguese, (gah...sp) these are MASSIVE in comparison to our own sun, even before they become fat red giants, they are huge before they expand...
goes to look for linkage
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap001107.html
SuperNova Remenant.
Just to show how far the shockwave for Capella will spread (Actually it'll be NOTHING like that big, just a reference).
From the way they used the Capella System, I could be about 75% sure this star, the one they 'blew up' would be a star which would fall into the less then 8times solar masses which would prevent it going truly supernova, no matter what the shivan's did to it, actually looking at it from a purely scientific view, it would be impossible to make a star go supernova unless you injected it with something, or manipulated it somehow, into seriously burning the hell out of all it's elements then just running through it's life cycle faster...I would suspect the reason why they might do this, is actually hinted very obviously, in the final video clip with the reference to another universe, because of the subspace disturbance, and the SJ's jumping out, I could QUITE Easily believe that the shivan's did this because a supernova's explosion is actually prompted by even more gravity then a blackhole can produce...(in one very short burst) which is probably represented as the point that the star is glowing green, that gravity could then be springboarded on with subspace to catapult you into another dimension, or universe, your choice (there is a difference, dimensions are carried within the same universe..).
http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/space/stellardeath/stellardeath_intro.html This one has a fairly accute explanation. (Hit contents)
http://observe.arc.nasa.gov/nasa/space/stellardeath/stellardeath_2.html specifically there.
Between the two webby's there's enough data...hehe...
http://imgsrc.stsci.edu/op/pubinfo/pr/1998/08/content/sn1987.mov
me being nice :p
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Originally posted by karajorma
EDIT : Every definition I could find of a nova has nothing to do with single stars like the sun but instead refers to the accretion of matter on a white dwarf from a companion star (usually a red giant). Can anyone clarify if it is incorrect to say that the sun will go nova towards the end of its life?
The sun won't go nova, it will become a red giant and then shed its outer layers as you said. Still bad news for Earth, as the sun's corona would extend out past the asteroid belt, but no violent explosion would occur.
As for Capella, looking at the info :V: provided in the last few command briefings, it would appear that the Sath fleet was using a subspace compression wave to induce the Capella supernova. And lets say the radiation would damage any system within 30 lightyears; I don't think that any of the FS2 inhabated systems are within 30 lightyears of Capella anyway, so I can't see that it'd matter that much.
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I originally thought a subspace compression wave would be the right answer too, however it just doesnt have the right chemistry to do it, 'subspace' by very nature, cannot interupt normal space, it takes a reality accelerater to push something into subspace AND Keep it there...
It is possible that v wanted to use subspace that way though..it did look like it, and it's how I looked at it before I kinda did the science on it, seeming as 'subspace compression' would make the stars atmosphere much more volitile (thing's are more likely to react in higher pressure environments, so it would increase the speed the star moved through it's life cycle).. your point is well taken, just that science wouldn't let it happen, it's probably what V wanted to do though...heh...
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
I originally thought a subspace compression wave would be the right answer too, however it just doesnt have the right chemistry to do it, 'subspace' by very nature, cannot interupt normal space, it takes a reality accelerater to push something into subspace AND Keep it there...
It is possible that v wanted to use subspace that way though..it did look like it, and it's how I looked at it before I kinda did the science on it, seeming as 'subspace compression' would make the stars atmosphere much more volitile (thing's are more likely to react in higher pressure environments, so it would increase the speed the star moved through it's life cycle).. your point is well taken, just that science wouldn't let it happen, it's probably what V wanted to do though...heh...
Since :V: didn't really follow real science anyway, and that their definition of subspace (or any real definition of subspace for that matter) is so hazy sort of indicates that it can do whatever :V: needed it to do. Guess they never thought we'd be hashing out the principles behind their plotlines :D
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
'subspace' by very nature, cannot interupt normal space,
Bzzt. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
http://astron.berkeley.edu/~bmendez/html/time.html
See the part about traversable wormholes specifically--almost entirely like FS subspace. There is, however, the small problem of temporal shift... but as long as the nodes don't move much relative to each other and aren't in widely different gravitational fields, the temporal effects will be minimal. All we have to do is find a way to produce matter with negative energy (a tall order, that).
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
All we have to do is find a way to produce matter with negative energy (a tall order, that).
aw... is that all? I'll have it ready next tuesday.
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
From the way they used the Capella System, I could be about 75% sure this star, the one they 'blew up' would be a star which would fall into the less then 8times solar masses which would prevent it going truly supernova, no matter what the shivan's did to it, actually looking at it from a purely scientific view, it would be impossible to make a star go supernova unless you injected it with something, or manipulated it somehow, into seriously burning the hell out of all it's elements then just running through it's life cycle faster...I would suspect the reason why they might do this, is actually hinted very obviously, in the final video clip with the reference to another universe, because of the subspace disturbance, and the SJ's jumping out, I could QUITE Easily believe that the shivan's did this because a supernova's explosion is actually prompted by even more gravity then a blackhole can produce...(in one very short burst) which is probably represented as the point that the star is glowing green, that gravity could then be springboarded on with subspace to catapult you into another dimension, or universe, your choice (there is a difference, dimensions are carried within the same universe..).
Again my knowledge of physics isn`t quite high enough to speak of this stuff as a certainty but AFAIK the only reason that stars with smaller mass don`t go supernova isn`t directly connected with their mass.
Smaller stars aren`t massive enough to carry out fusion on iron. iron is the most stable element. Unlike the elements lighter than it fusion of iron is endothermic (i.e instead of giving out energy it takes energy to occur). When this happens instead of giving out heat and light the core of the star begins to take it in. Without the pressure of the heat leaving the star gravity takes over and compresses the star further. However unless the star is really heavy gravity can`t compress the star after the electrons have been compressed into the nuclei of their respective atoms to form neutrons. The outer layers bounce off of the newly formed neutron star and explode outwards.
A similar process will take place in our sun as it finishes it's red dwarf phase. The sun will find that it can`t fuse carbon atoms and will contract to a white dwarf but since this process is slower than with iron stars the size of our sun don`t go supernova.
Astronomers say that a star the size of Capella can`t supernova but the main reason for that is because there is no natural way for the star to undergo the sudden collapse required to set one off.
However since we`ve established that the direct cause of a supernova is the sudden loss of the internal pressure if the shivans have some unnatural way of removing or diminishing this internal pressure they should be able to cause any star to supernova regardless of its size.
As for how they did it I can think of another way besides the one I`ve already mentioned and this one is more simple. Open a jump point inside the star and push in a large iron planetoid. The helium at the centre of the star is displaced and when the star trys to fuse it's new core it get's nowhere fast resulting in on hell of a big bang.
Originally posted by StratComm
The sun won't go nova, it will become a red giant and then shed its outer layers as you said. Still bad news for Earth, as the sun's corona would extend out past the asteroid belt, but no violent explosion would occur.
I thought as much but I`ve heard so many people talk about the sun going nova at the end of its lifespan that I was beginning to wonder if I had got it wrong.
Originally posted by StratComm
And lets say the radiation would damage any system within 30 lightyears; I don't think that any of the FS2 inhabated systems are within 30 lightyears of Capella anyway, so I can't see that it'd matter that much.
Since [V] obviously made up their science as they went along I figure no one can really complain about a little artistic licence. I say let the supernova be a problem to GTVA systems if that would add to your campaigns and ignore it if it wouldn`t :D
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Pretty much spot on Kara :D
this is about as far as I go on supernova, there is a few things about gravity in itself that need to be noted, and the newest UTF needs to be applied to ALL Supernova theorum's, so don't bet on them not changing soon :D
I'm about 90% sure it works that way (popular science) ;p
I can't really tell you anymore, that's pretty much the standard scientific explanation.
Your theory about dropping pressure is a good one.
The theory about compressing is a good one.
Either would have exactly the same affect, just that the latter would be more beneficial to anything the shivan's would do it for (resource harvest/gravity catapult/mass destruction)
I like your theory though hehe
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Bzzt. Go directly to jail. Do not pass go, do not collect $200.
http://astron.berkeley.edu/~bmendez/html/time.html
See the part about traversable wormholes specifically--almost entirely like FS subspace. There is, however, the small problem of temporal shift... but as long as the nodes don't move much relative to each other and aren't in widely different gravitational fields, the temporal effects will be minimal. All we have to do is find a way to produce matter with negative energy (a tall order, that).
Didn't see that post.
Can I just point out...
The Beginning of Time the title <<<< is such a bad way to name things. :p
I didn't need to read much to tell you UTF completely denies the possibility of that kind of travel, unless the influenced particle, or the particle which is stimulating the 'jump' was bosian in nature...
I do wanna draw your attention to this though...
In the biography.
Thorne, Kip S. and Morris, Michael S.. Wormholes in spacetime and their use for interstellar travel: A tool for teaching general relativity. Am. J. Phys. 56(6), May 1988.
Incredibly out of date now, mainly (Again) due to recent advances in UTF (And by recent, I mean pretty much this year :p)
Macvey, John W.. Time Travel, A Guide to Journeys in the Fourth Dimension. Scarborough House/Publishers, 1990.
outta date, mainly because it was classed as unpopular science, dismissed by the top dogs and stomped on...
Pity though.....I love Time Travel when it's looked at as it should be, 4th dimensionally.
According to that book though, you can walk into the past the same way you would walk through a door, it wasn't exactly well founded science... Good read though, I do recommend it if you like sci-fi, it's not *that* full of physics/math, more philosophy.
Hawking, Stephen. A Brief History of Time, From the Big Bang to Black Holes. Bantam, 1988
dude, this was in the news, probably one of the best books about time ever, seriously a read I would put for any astronomer/physics nut :D
The rest of the novels are actually okay, they haven't been affected too much by UTF, considering UTF itself didn't deal with time.
I'm adding that Physical obsticals book to my fairly long list of lit i need to read...it looks interesting... don't know who Deser S is though...
If you wish to know anything about possible subspace (which would have to be classed as a dimension or subdimension for it to be able to interact with reality.... that's doubtful.... the main way 'subspace' science works, is slipping into a form of compressed space, OR and the currently more popular theory, a continuum where FTL is actually possible without the constraints of time acting upon it...) theories, you'd HAVE to read through most of the literature on Quantum Physics, and you'd HAVE to read a lot of the post'98 Unified Field Theory...
Actually more I think about it, they're almost definately talking about Bosian... except the terms are all wrong....same....err....ish....science though.
You need to read some UTF, you'll really enjoy it, err I think :D
The problem with saying 'subspace can directly influence real space' you throw ALL The rules of physics out the window (eg; relativity, subspace only allows you to travel faster then the speed of light /PROVIDING You can get there/ because it CANNOT influence the real universe which it resides under).
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one question:
WTF is UTM????
btw:
this campaign idea also uses the theme, it`s nevr been finished tough...
http://faculty.concord.edu/manzione/fs3.htm
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:wtf: :eek:
....Unified Field Theory...?
...You know....The Greatest Physics Project of All Time, the one that's on the quest to find a 'general set of rules to explain the universe, how it behaves, and how it got from where it 'started' to where it is now, and where it's going'.
Anything outside of the finalised UTF, it fiction, or beyond human comprehension (therefore fiction if someone's talking about it...heh).
UTF is responcible for the knowledge of the atom, it's also responcible for knowing there's stuff in the atom, it's also responcible for knowing there's stuff inside the stuff that's in an atom, and it's mainly responcible for the ongoing search for 'bosian particles' <-- If Bosian's could ever be controlled, and/or programmed, they would Freely be able to transverse through time and space, almost instantaneously, no matter what point you are trying to reach in the universe or in time.
UTF is also one of the few science areas that has a correct model for the 'big bang' (...what a tradgic name, considering, it was never a bang, it was never a beginning, time never started, it was always here, the universe never exploded, it was always being driven by a form of anti-gravity which is projected to be being produced in a 5-to-11th's dimensional plane that continues to drive universal expansion to this day.
It actually has proof, that no one could have created the universe, because the universe was always here, if you were to claim to have created the universe, you could never exist, nor never have existed because you did not have a time frame in which to exist...
Kinda pisses religious people off when you start bringing in UTF Quotes...
I do like to note one thing though.
The universe is perfect.
100% perfect, there is a complete balance in every single thing.
That is just about the only evidence I could come up with for there being a supreme being.
That campaign didn't use the theme that the shivan's lived in a different universe/dimension, just that they lived a very far way away.
That's another (actually more plausible) theory about the supernova.
I just think it's a little more...boring? and pointless, why would you need to blow it if you could make your way home the normal way? :p
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sorry about the stupid post, i'm tired,working on school work, and wondering wy i'm still awake. :confused: :nervous:
so it`s the UTF who explains about quarks, *takes mental note*
anyway, the campaign feateures problems because of the cappella supernova in the form of damaged ecoystems and stuff. (the original topic of this thread)
thanks for explaining
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Originally posted by QuantumDelta
[BI do like to note one thing though.
The universe is perfect.
100% perfect, there is a complete balance in every single thing.
That is just about the only evidence I could come up with for there being a supreme being.
[/B]
I did once read an article which explained this. It's fairly obvious if you think about it. Universes where the constants aren`t correct don`t evolve life so no one ever spots them. The balances in this universe are seem perfect for life because life evolved in them and wonders about how perfect they are forgetting that if they hadn`t been no one would be here to spot the fact.
The most interesting part of the theory was that universes where the balance was correct might at a later point be able to seed new universes thereby setting up a kind of natural selection amongst universes :D
Anyway I read this over 10 years ago so it might have been debunked but the first part is pretty valid regardless.
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1) Shouldn't Unified Field Theory be shortened to UFT, not UTF?
2) There are many UFTs. None actually work, so I wouldn't put too much stock in them yet.
3) This same material was in Scientific American's special issue on time two months ago. Apparently it is still quite valid as far as most are concerned.
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I'd be careful about putting all my faith in an unproven theories. At the moment they are all theories rather than fact and any particular one could very easily go the same way as Lamarckism (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Lamarckism), phlogiston theory (http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0838824.html) or the one about the universal ether.
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...Proven 'facts' in the past have been simply misguided theories.
I don't have any clue why I kept typing UTF (...Some Squad? a Star Trek abbrieviation? ...meh)
I do know I'm tired, so if this doesn't make much sense forgive me.
There is only one project for UFT, whilst there are many theories, they are all chasing the same objective, the combination of Quantum Physics and (important...)....something that I can't even remember...crap, maybe I'll redo this after sleep, doubt it...heh, Sesqui can correct my errors, I'm pretty sure he's gotta good grip on it, just a bad site, and a bad reference (probably because my statement was bad in the first place, which it was looking at it from the science side of things)...
That issue of SA you read, it's quite a good read, it does lot on how much they've broken down the particle side of it, it doesn't cover too much about the wave side, but well in enough for someone(s) like ourselves...
It defunct most of the books, I think the discoveries majored about 5months ago, anti-grav... you know, like subspace /could/ be one of the 5th-to-11th dimensions, this is one that they are aware of now....blah blah blah....
It also has a few good notes on time...
I'm not gonna say anymore, because I'm exaughsted, and probably making no sense to anyone....oh well...
can't explain to you why the books i mentioned are defunct, apart from the one that wasn't plausible science...sorry Sesqui...
There might be articles on them somewhere though...
Night folks :p
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Umm wasn't the Eldridge sent through subspace in Philly harbor back in WWII? Just the method was F*ed and when they came back the crew got phased into the hull.... I only consider this cause to me subspace is another dimension... And you gotta admit, the Eldridge went SOMEWHERE..... Hmmmmm Event Horizon anyone.... It went to HELL!!!!!! :devil:
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Originally posted by Star Dragon
Umm wasn't the Eldridge sent through subspace in Philly harbor back in WWII? Just the method was F*ed and when they came back the crew got phased into the hull.... I only consider this cause to me subspace is another dimension... And you gotta admit, the Eldridge went SOMEWHERE..... Hmmmmm Event Horizon anyone.... It went to HELL!!!!!! :devil:
Yeah but the Roswell aliens shot kennedy because he planned to fake the moon landings which would then lead to a debunking of the face on mars and all that lead to a cover up of the Eldridge's disappearance into the bermuda triangle.
Or may both posts were made up :D
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as anyone translated the article yet??? i'm kinda curious of the results.
and BTW, i apolagise for the shamless bump:nervous: