Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Stealth on November 30, 2002, 11:44:20 pm
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In the future, what programs/languages do you see as being 'supreme'...as in most used, and most efficient. (note this is not now... this is what you think will be in the future of the web)
Also post a reason why/why not you think a certain language/program gets your vote.
EDIT:
My vote went to Flash, PHP, and HTML. Why?
Because HTML is the basis of every webpage
PHP is awesome and easy for big sites to display pages, etc.
Flash is many languages in one, you can do pretty much anything with Flash (yeah, go on... try me!)
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Originally posted by Stealth
Flash is many languages in one, you can do pretty much anything with Flash (yeah, go on... try me!)
Make a fully functional Freespace Desktop. ;)
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Java is teH cool (on the basis that all my friends taking CS degrees hate it and struggle with it :))
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Java is teH cool (on the basis that all my friends taking CS degrees hate it and struggle with it :))
eh? Java is a piss-easy language....
I'd say Java - platform independent (hence why it is one of the main languages for mobile phone comms, once you can otpimise it sufficeintly), XML (as it's more versatile than HTML and adds meaning to data), and finally SQL for remote database access (which is going to be a major thing...).
Tho SQL isn't really a web language as such, as it's just a date retrieval / manipulation language, and it can be embedded in CGI, ASP, Java etc.
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voted flash...because it's hell of a job to find an official non-flash website these days.
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Originally posted by Ten of Twelve
voted flash...because it's hell of a job to find an official non-flash website these days.
which is not always a good thing. Flash tends to take up a lot of RAM, loads slowly on a 56k modem, which makes me usually switch to html versions if one is available.
now, php, that is the way to go. :yes: :nod:
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English - far enough into the future you'll just say "Make me a cool webpage...With blue bits on it".
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Originally posted by Stunaep
which is not always a good thing. Flash tends to take up a lot of RAM, loads slowly on a 56k modem, which makes me usually switch to html versions if one is available.
now, php, that is the way to go. :yes: :nod:
Flash does take up a lot of RAM, but the compression is probably the best in the world... the filesizes are incredibly small.
Also, did I mention that 56K aren't the way of the future either ;)
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Originally posted by mikhael
Make a fully functional Freespace Desktop. ;)
easy ;)
it's the browser that's standing in the way, not the Flash bit ;)
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PHP+MySQL = Teh shiznit
HTML+DHTML+Perl = Teh ****
*is going for the PHP+MySQL option for fattonys.com once he's got the time to finish making the damn thing*
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Originally posted by Stealth
Also, did I mention that 56K aren't the way of the future either ;)
it's a miracle that people are still using 56K
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*remembers when 33.6's were teh *****
Dial-up sukkas.
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XP doesnt even support Java as default.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
XP doesnt even support Java as default.
Haha. Yeah, Microsoft tried to make Windows incompatible with Sun Java (and exclusively run it's own Java variant) so Sun took offence and sued them, so now Microsoft don't like Java.
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cgi and perl are becomming obsolete, php and asp have taken over. Html duh, dhtml was just a fad that didn't last long... at all. Flash is pointless because you have to wait for the page to load, and usually you get the same information while having to screw around with an annoying interface. Java**** is the root of all evil, it causes hundreds of page errors, thousands of popups, rarely do you ever see useful content with java****. And Java is kinda borderline, id rather use something like DarkBasic.
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Javascript is probably the second most evil thing on the Earth.
And as for DHTML, yes, it's mostly dead and non-used, but it's still got some nifty features in the CSS thingies and the filter. Like Glow and Shadow and such.
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Whoever made this poll is a bit... ummm... clueless.
DHTML does not exist except in the mind of marketers. All it is is HTML + DOM + JavaScript.
XML is an interoperable database standard. Nothing to do with web pages. XHTML (http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#xhtml), which is a reformulation of HTML to XML syntax (and wasn't included in the poll), has already been declared by the W3C as the future preferred web markup language.
Flash is not "many languages in one". It is, at best, two-- a timeline-based animation tool, and ECMAScript (aka ActionScript, aka JavaScript).
CGI (http://hoohoo.ncsa.uiuc.edu/cgi/intro.html) is not a language. It is, as its acronym specifies, a common interface between web pages and server-side executables. This is often Perl, but it can literally be any program on the server.
If ASP is in there, where's JSP (http://java.sun.com/products/jsp/)?
The scope of this poll is too scattershot to derive any meaningful results. We've got server-side and client-side technologies mixed together... user interaction vs content generation technologies... ack!
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Yes, all what he said goes.
I wonder if anyone has seriously considered using gopher as a protocol instead of http, it has many, many virtues.
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Originally posted by vadar_1
cgi and perl are becomming obsolete, php and asp have taken over. Html duh, dhtml was just a fad that didn't last long... at all. Flash is pointless because you have to wait for the page to load, and usually you get the same information while having to screw around with an annoying interface. Java**** is the root of all evil, it causes hundreds of page errors, thousands of popups, rarely do you ever see useful content with java****. And Java is kinda borderline, id rather use something like DarkBasic.
the only reason you don't like Flash is because i use it.
PHP has its uses, as does Flash
EDIT:
What happened to your avatar and forum? :confused:
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He doesn't like Flash because it's turd.
Internet = Text
Internet != Crappy sequenced scripting and vectored graphics
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HTML
because it's practical ... (not that I particularly like it)
xhtml is too rigid imo (so I don't like it)
Now if there was a powerful, simple language that could easily scuplt graphical web pages I'd be all over it... (no flash isn't it, it's not dynamic enough and is more of a movie/game resource)
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Originally posted by ZylonBane
XML is an interoperable database standard. Nothing to do with web pages.
I have to disagree with you on this one point. XML is not a database standard, so much as it is a framework for specifying data packaging and/or exchange methods. Unless you're going to define "marked up text files" as a "database standard", you are in error.
Prime example: some PDAs use XML marked up flat text to create quickly parseable datasets. They also use XML as a way to exchange data between client programs on the same or different PDAs.
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HTML, and whatever one-ups Flash, if anything.
I think those that were here pretty much in the beginning will stay a while- Java, HTML, and the like. After all, they're really all you need, they've outlasted most of the fad scripts already, and they're universal.
Plus, I understand them, at least to a degree. Which makes all the difference- DOWN WITH LANGUAGES I CAN'T READ!!!
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Well Flash rules today due to its ease of use and great flexibility and its look. I beleive Flash, with ODBC's used with HTML and ASP will eventually rule the web.
However PHP is opened sourced unlike ASP. Therefore its flexibility alone should make it last a long time.
I have heard however flash is doing a complete makeover and the next few versions will reflect some changes. I honestly beleive flash will one day be a standard for Web design, used with ODBC DSN's. PHP is like the poor mans website and ASP is like the richmans website.
In conclusion Flash kicks all, animation, dynamic, has Java properties and DHTML properties to say the least.
Flash is the future my friends, either get on the boat or go home to PHP. Im surprised ASP didnt get more votes. Honestly has anyone ever programmed in ASP or VBScript? Its like writing Javascripts with a crutch. Can almost tell it in plain english what to do and it will understand. ASP deserves some credit therefore has my vote (yes i kow im supporting M$ with that vote, but seriously ASP/VBscript is so easy you cant not vote for it)
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Originally posted by ZylonBane
XML is an interoperable database standard. Nothing to do with web pages. XHTML (http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/#xhtml), which is a reformulation of HTML to XML syntax (and wasn't included in the poll), has already been declared by the W3C as the future preferred web markup language.
XML is eXtensible Markup Language, a subset of SGML (Standard Generalised Markup Language) and which can be further defined to be used as HMTL is. Insofar as databases go, it's not really valid because it's not relational as such.. it does have advantages in that it doesn't require structured data types, and the tags can be used to give meaning, but it's really more useful as a 'gateway' to SQL functions in terms of DB use.
Thw whole point of XML is that it's not specifically a database standard - it was originally developed as a document standard, and it's been refined to be more DB-like because the tags can give data a meaning.
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Originally posted by Lonestar
Well Flash rules today due to its ease of use and great flexibility and its look. I beleive Flash, with ODBC's used with HTML and ASP will eventually rule the web.
However PHP is opened sourced unlike ASP. Therefore its flexibility alone should make it last a long time.
I have heard however flash is doing a complete makeover and the next few versions will reflect some changes. I honestly beleive flash will one day be a standard for Web design, used with ODBC DSN's. PHP is like the poor mans website and ASP is like the richmans website.
In conclusion Flash kicks all, animation, dynamic, has Java properties and DHTML properties to say the least.
Flash is the future my friends, either get on the boat or go home to PHP. Im surprised ASP didnt get more votes. Honestly has anyone ever programmed in ASP or VBScript? Its like writing Javascripts with a crutch. Can almost tell it in plain english what to do and it will understand. ASP deserves some credit therefore has my vote (yes i kow im supporting M$ with that vote, but seriously ASP/VBscript is so easy you cant not vote for it)
Amen!
*sniff, sniff* you bring tears to my eyes
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Originally posted by mikhael
I have to disagree with you on this one point. XML is not a database standard, so much as it is a framework for specifying data packaging and/or exchange methods.
Meh, you're just arguing semantics. The point is that it's a standard format for exchanging data, and also used as the native format for a lot of simple flat data (for example, Dreamweaver defines its entire user interface with XML files).
There's tons of pie-in-the-sky stuff about XML flying around, but in practical implementation so far, it just seems like CSV (http://www.cknow.com/ckinfo/acro_c/csv_1.shtml)++.
And Flash whores need to get over themselves.
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The only thing Flash is good for, is virusing people.
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and for making incredibly awesome webpages
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Originally posted by Stealth
and for making incredibly awesome webpages
Say that 3 times while clicking your heels together and Marry Poppins will whisk you away over the 100 Acre Wood, past Never Never Land and off to the land of the Oompa Lumpas.
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another feeble attempt at increasing his post count?
i think so
:D j/k
EDIT: but seriously... give me one page that's WELL done in all and everything BUT Flash, and i'll give you a flash page that has it beat... (design wise)
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www.yahoo.com
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vadar had (has) the same problem as you apparently...
there's two different pages... there's pages that are pushing for:
DESIGN
and pages that want to display
CONTENT
for instance, pages that want to give information don't require fancy interfaces... look at www.ebay.com , www.yahoo.com , and many business sites that want to give as much information as possible.
Vadar used the example of the macromedia site even... they have virtually no Flash content on them, but that's because they're trying to give information, not "eye candy"
Then, on the other side of the spectrum, you have pages that have information, but they want to present it in an appealing way... for instance: www.xeofreestyle.com , www.flash-db.net , www.flashchallenge.com and i could go on and on and on...
there's a difference in sites as you can see... it would be pointless for yahoo.com to have flash content on their site other than for advertising, because they want a page to load as fast as possible, and their site isn't meant to have a great appealing aspect.
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www.ap3d.com
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not bad... but that sites's pushing for design, not content
i never said there were NO good sites that didn't use Flash, i'm just saying that the reason a lot of sites don't use Flash is it's pointless when you're not going for eye candy
EDIT: compare that site to any of the three or four i've mentioned in my previous post... see if you can tell which is more appealing.
EDIT2: just a few more sites (done in Flash) that you can compare to the non-Flash one you advertized :
http://www.2advanced.com/
http://www.moock.org/asdg/home.html
http://www.laserlines.com/enhanced.html
http://www.differentdays.com/main.html
http://www.cicolini.com/
http://www.loqueves.com/
http://www.axis360.com/
http://www.bluprint.tv/
http://www.iconologic.com/ff2002/neocon/
http://www.airbagconcept.com.ar/
http://www.xeofreestyle.com/2000 (old site)
http://www.xeofreestyle.com (new site)
http://www.flash-db.net
http://www.flashchallenge.com
i can go on and on and on
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Fine. http://www.vbulletin.org
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compare that to any of the above sites i've mentioned...
of course i'm not saying that there's not good non-Flash sites, i'm just saying that the best Flash sites vs. the best non-Flash sites are 0wned by the Flash sites
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Originally posted by Lonestar Im surprised ASP didnt get more votes. Honestly has anyone ever programmed in ASP or VBScript? Its like writing Javascripts with a crutch. Can almost tell it in plain english what to do and it will understand. ASP deserves some credit therefore has my vote (yes i kow im supporting M$ with that vote, but seriously ASP/VBscript is so easy you cant not vote for it)
You misunderstand ASP. ASP is a framework for embedding scripting in a webpage, not the scripting language you use. You supply the scripting language and the parser (microsoft does supply VBScript and Javascript parsers). You can use REXX, Perlscript, PythonScript, Java (which would be silly but its possible), LISP, OCaML, Ruby, and about a thousand other things.
ASP provides a common set of interfaces to the server and its services, as well as some web oriented objects. it also provides a very easy framework for extending the builtin interfaces or adding entirely new ones. That's one thing that ASP has over PHP.
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Originally posted by ZylonBane Meh, you're just arguing semantics.
ZylonBane: "This is an apple!"
Mikhael: "No, that spherical fruit is an orange."
ZylonBane: "You're just arguing semantics."
Sorry, when you declare XML to be something, and someone says you're wrong, its something else, that's not semantics. That's correcting your error.
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Originally posted by mikhael
You misunderstand ASP. ASP is a framework for embedding scripting in a webpage, not the scripting language you use. You supply the scripting language and the parser (microsoft does supply VBScript and Javascript parsers). You can use REXX, Perlscript, PythonScript, Java (which would be silly but its possible), LISP, OCaML, Ruby, and about a thousand other things.
ASP provides a common set of interfaces to the server and its services, as well as some web oriented objects. it also provides a very easy framework for extending the builtin interfaces or adding entirely new ones. That's one thing that ASP has over PHP.
Thanks for the info, i dont contend to know all about asp or VBscript. im a designer more then a programmer. Ive only recently learned VBscript and im surprised at the ease of its use.
As for Flash vs non-flash its like comparing apples and oranges.
I can take any Flash design you have, and make a site that will look almost exactly like it, which will animate like it and work like it in everyway.
Only difference you will see is in the actual animation itself. Flash is at heart an animator more then a site development tool. So you could make a flash site in HTML/DHTML/Any scripting language for DB's and it will work the same way as the flash site.
So for animations and funky looks Flash is the way to go. I dont care what anyone says, if your going to make animations flash makes it better everytime. I dont know how many GIF's ive converted to flash to reduce its size and make it look nicer.
Flash is the best animator tool for websites around today nothing even comes close to it. If your a true designer though, you know deep down every programming language, tool and database has its place, its up and downs. Dont knock what is brought to us, but also give kudos to those that have changed the face of design today (Flash). To deny the fact flash has changed the appearance of the web is like denying HLP exists. It has, continues to, and in the future will always be a web enhancer. Do you remember the first flash design you saw? I do, my jaw dropped, and i remember thinking, this is the future of design.
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Originally posted by Lonestar
Thanks for the info, i dont contend to know all about asp or VBscript. im a designer more then a programmer. Ive only recently learned VBscript and im surprised at the ease of its use.
As for Flash vs non-flash its like comparing apples and oranges.
I can take any Flash design you have, and make a site that will look almost exactly like it, which will animate like it and work like it in everyway.
So for animations and funky looks Flash is the way to go. I dont care what anyone says, if your going to make animations flash makes it better everytime. I dont know how many GIF's ive converted to flash to reduce its size and make it look nicer.
Flash is the best animator tool for websites around today nothing even comes close to it. If your a true designer though, you know deep down every programming language, tool and database has its place, its up and downs. Dont knock what is brought to us, but also give kudos to those that have changed the face of design today (Flash). [/B]
:wtf: are you for Flash or against Flash?
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Im pretty sure those quotes say it. But ill repeat to ensure you get what im saying.
Flash is awesome, yet everything has its place and deserves respect. however flash has changed the industry.
I can take any Flash design you have, and make a site that will look almost exactly like it, which will animate like it and work like it in everyway.
Only difference you will see is in the actual animation itself. Flash is at heart an animator more then a site development tool. So you could make a flash site in HTML/DHTML/Any scripting language for DB's and it will work the same way as the flash site.
Theres the full quote. I contend everything you do in flash can be done in DHTML and HTML, however it looks better in flash.
Im not really for or against everything i just prefer certain things over another, yet give respect to all aspects of the web.
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a few posts above this one i have posted about 15 links to Flash sites.
try to make a site that looks even remotely close to any of them... you make the choice
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Originally posted by Lonestar
im a designer more then a programmer. Ive only recently learned VBscript and im surprised at the ease of its use.
You'll grow to hate VBScript very quickly when you start doing anything more than trivially complex. The supreme lack of error handling will drive you insane. Your only error control mechanism is "On Error Resume Next" followed by some error check. This is fine for simple things, but is absolutely terrible for handling a situation where multiple things can go wrong. Javascript, I think, has reasonable exception handling, which makes flexible and powerful error handling almost trivial in itself. Python too.
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*sigh*
Flash is pretty, Flash has decent compression, but Flash is completely unneccessary. I've done mapped-GIF pages that are as fancy as any Flash page, and will do so again. It has some nice functions, but claiming it's the end-all format for all things internet reflects a lack of understanding of things not Flash. It's convienient, nothing more, nothing less.
That said, convienience is important online, of course. That wasn't a criticism of Flash so much as a summary of its functionality. The only problem I have with Flash is the excessive reliance some people put on it- the Zuxxez mainpage being an example. There's such a thing as too much Flash, and it seems a growing number of people don't cross that line so much as book a flight for six billion miles beyond it.
Also, lots of people don't include non-Flash alt pages anymore, which pisses me off.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
*sigh*
Flash is pretty, Flash has decent compression, but Flash is completely unneccessary. I've done mapped-GIF pages that are as fancy as any Flash page, and will do so again. It has some nice functions, but claiming it's the end-all format for all things internet reflects a lack of understanding of things not Flash. It's convienient, nothing more, nothing less.
That said, convienience is important online, of course. That wasn't a criticism of Flash so much as a summary of its functionality. The only problem I have with Flash is the excessive reliance some people put on it- the Zuxxez mainpage being an example. There's such a thing as too much Flash, and it seems a growing number of people don't cross that line so much as book a flight for six billion miles beyond it.
Also, lots of people don't include non-Flash alt pages anymore, which pisses me off.
right... Flash is unnecessary... we could live without Flash, but then again, we could live without PHP, DHTML, XML, ASP, etc. i mean c'mon... all we REALLY need is HTML! But all these other languages are made to make a page more efficient, as is Flash.
Plus, (www.moock.org) some websites use flash for other uses other than just design... check moock... see if you can see what i'm talking about ;) :cool:
do anything (cool) and i'll bet it can be matched and bettered in Flash
EDIT: I agree that for some people on slow computers/connections it's good to have an alternate HTML page... i believe all the sites i posted (above) have alternate versions except for like 3.
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Like i already said earlier and will repeat, flash is awesome however all the programming languages are good and used with flash make a great site.
Just like having too much flash you can have too much DHTML and everything else. You can never, however, have too much HTML.
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Stealth: What I meant is, name one thing Flash can do that nothing else can. PHP has special functions HTML can't handle, Javascript does, well, everything, and I'm sure XML isn't there just 'cause it's more convienient. Flash is a faster, marginally better way to do the same things other formats already can do, nothing more. That was all I was saying, as far as that goes.
And you're forgetting that many computers have security setups and firewalls that don't allow for Flash- it's all too easy to get virused with it, so many highly secure comps can't even SEE Flash pages.
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Originally posted by mikhael
Sorry, when you declare XML to be something, and someone says you're wrong, its something else, that's not semantics. That's correcting your error.
And when you declare XML to be a database standard (an intentionally nebulous statement), and someone interprets that according to their own very specific idea of what that expression means, that's mikhael.
XML is a standard.
XML is used to store and transmit databases.
Therefore, it can reasonably be called a "database standard".
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Originally posted by ZylonBane
....and someone interprets that according to [the current industry definition] of what that expression means, that's mikhael.
Its okay to be wrong, ZB. It happens to the best of us. But with time and experience, you too can learn to deal with it.
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Originally posted by mikhael
Its okay to be wrong, ZB. It happens to the best of us.
Then you can apply your mastery of being wrong to this document (http://www.rpbourret.com/xml/XMLAndDatabases.htm#isxmladatabase).
To quote the relevent portions--
...it may be possible to use an XML document or documents as a database in environments with small amounts of data, few users, and modest performance requirements...
...
Examples of more sophisticated data sets for which an XML document might be suitable as a database are personal contact lists (names, phone numbers, addresses, etc.), browser bookmarks, and descriptions of the MP3s you've stolen with the help of Napster.
And this is from a fairly ivory-tower author who barely considers anything below the enterprise level to be a "true" database.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Stealth: What I meant is, name one thing Flash can do that nothing else can.
very true Stryke,
but then again... name anything that can do as many things as Flash can... there is no language... Flash is the most flexible program there is
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Originally posted by ZylonBane
Then you can apply your mastery of being wrong to this document (http://www.rpbourret.com/xml/XMLAndDatabases.htm#isxmladatabase).
Talk about "[interpreting] according to their own very specific idea of what that expression means". You've undermined your own point by citing someone who did precisely that of which you accused me!
Were I wrong, I'd at least have the balls to admit it. How about this: I'll stick to the correct, generalist definition, and you can stick to your (only correct in special circumstances) definition, 'kay?
:D
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WWF ain't got nothin'.
Woah...I was kinda wondering before about what would happen if Mik and ZB were ever in the same room together...
Actually, my theory was that they'd either kill each other, cancel each other out, or the universe would come to an abrupt end. Kinda dissapointing, come to think of it.
:p
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...
Flash 0wns
:D
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Originally posted by Stealth
...
Flash 0wns
:D
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Originally posted by ZylonBane
And when you declare XML to be a database standard (an intentionally nebulous statement), and someone interprets that according to their own very specific idea of what that expression means, that's mikhael.
XML is a standard.
XML is used to store and transmit databases.
Therefore, it can reasonably be called a "database standard".
No, it lacks many of features required for a database standard IMO - no indexing (no sorting of key values for binary searches, no DBMS functionality, read only structure, XSL is volatile and complex and there is no SQL style query language).
Database implies it would have to be ideally designed for storage, querying and retrieval of data - it is not. It's more of a general purpose content definition language. If XML can be called a 'database standard', then so can SGML, Java, C, C++ and any other language which can be used to roughly define data and it's meaning.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
English - far enough into the future you'll just say "Make me a cool webpage...With blue bits on it".
You mean you cant do that now? No wonder my webdesign skills suck... I've been yelling at Homesite this whole time expecting it to do something...
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Originally posted by Thorn
You mean you cant do that now? No wonder my webdesign skills suck... I've been yelling at Homesite this whole time expecting it to do something...
Doing html in a text-based editor is gooo'....
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Originally posted by aldo_14
No, it lacks many of features required for a database standard IMO - no indexing (no sorting of key values for binary searches, no DBMS functionality, read only structure
I think I see what's happening here. Don't confuse the minimum definition with the minimum practical definition.
It's like if you ask someone to define "car", and they come back with "a 4-wheeled conveyance with an engine, a steering wheel, seatbelts, airbags, power steering, power brakes, headlights, windows, and a radio." Those are all nice, but it's far in excess of the baseline definition of a car.
And so it is with databases. Back in the stone age databases didn't have most of what's considered standard now. But that doesn't retroactively make them not "databases".
Sheesh, and to think I was slinging MODI STRUs and SELECT TERTIARYs while some of you were in diapers. :ick
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you just got told by ZylonBane
;)
i know nothing of databases, so i'll stay out of this argument :D
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PS-- Aldo is cool. :yes:
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I know. i like aldo
:)
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Originally posted by ZylonBane
Sheesh, and to think I was slinging MODI STRUs and SELECT TERTIARYs while some of you were in diapers. :ick
Hey... LAST WEEK WAS LAST WEEK!! Drop it, man!
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I guess HTML/CSS wins... with Flash coming second, and PHP a close third