Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: CODEDOG ND on December 10, 2002, 07:40:34 pm
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I couldn't find the article, but I was watching Fox News and they had this report about being able to test your unborn child for birth defects like, mental retardation, blindness, deafness, etc. So that you could have the option of having the child or have an abortion. I didn't catch all of it. What was really absurd was they were basing the option on the rise in health care exspenditures and the "quality" and "fullness" that these people wouldn't have!
Sometimes I wish I had a sign with :wtf: on it. What says that somebody that is blind, deaf or mentally challenged can't have a "good" quality of life, or just because your children are handicaped in some way, you don't want them because "it would cost too much." Some people make me wonder why the hell they think life is so great then act so damn selfishly by trying to deny others the oppirtunity(sp?) just because they are not what most call "normal." :doubt:
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I agree, but then again I'm against abortion in general.
...And don't try to stick me with that "rape pregnancies" crap - there are _plenty_ of people in the world who are dying to adopt. :doubt:
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Ah, the eternal paradox-- life is both precious and cheap.
Say you find out your unborn child is destined for a life of debilitating handicap. Some argue that if you choose to abort that child you're denying him a chance at life. But then you could just as well argue that if you keep the baby, you're denying life to the one you would have conceived after it.
Feh, some people just can't accept that their existence in the world is the product of pure chance.
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I view it as one life is precious, while many are cheap.
No one has the right to judge another's life before they are even born.
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Six billion on one planet? Eh, we don't need all of them. *tidies things up by killing several million starving and homeless*
EDIT: TWO THOUSAND POSTS!!
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Originally posted by Sandwich
...And don't try to stick me with that "rape pregnancies" crap - there are _plenty_ of people in the world who are dying to adopt. :doubt:
And you know we can't keep kids in foster homes here, they're flying out like hotcakes. You find a way to get the child out of the mother once she doesn't want it, do it. Until then, it's not your business.
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It's not like a fetus is a "real" human being anyway...
and besides.. If I were a thirteen year old schoo / whore.. I wouldn't necasarily want a child .. and I don't think you would either.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
It's not like a fetus is a "real" human being anyway...
:wtf:
It's the principle of it.... the child will be human.
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Ahhh...some points to make.
Before I say anything else, I fully support the right to choose your own path. This is supposed to be a relatively free country and one of my biggest beefs is where people refuse to believe that other people think and have different ideas than they do. Therefore, I personally feel that people have a right to make these choices, but I also feel that under that, those opposed to actions like abortion (and I'm not entirely infavor of abortion myself) should also be allowed to express those opinions. It crosses the line when someone tries to burn down an abortion clinic.
I think the idea of being able to know that the child has a seriously debilitating disease or birth defect before being born is a great idea. Either way, I feel that when I have children, I want to know what problems if any I can/have to deal with. I know right now...that if I had a mentally handicapped child that I would personally probably not be able to deal with it. Thats not discrimination, thats not shirking of responsibilities to life, I know that I would not be able to cope...thats my defect. So I'm not sure what I would choose but I want to have that choice.
Finally I'll end on one last thing. Before anyone gets carried away in a heated debate, remember one thing. Democracy and democratic governments may be corrupt, they may not work all the time, they may not work always in our interest, but I feel that there is hope for the human race...and elements of our way of life...why? Because we can all sit down here and try and deal with these issues by talking it out. Hopefully, we can entertain mutual understanding here. Carry on!
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Originally posted by Joey_21
:wtf:
It's the principle of it.... the child will be human.
So will an egg and sperm :wtf:
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There's a marvelously written article here (http://www.str.org/free/points/robertge.htm) that convincingly argues that a human being is a human being from the moment of conception.
Unborn children are human beings and have rights just like each of us. When they're aborted - it doesn't matter at what stage - their rights are unjustly deprived. It's politically correct, because unborn children are thought of as "property". It's just like Dred Scott v. Sanford, only worse - because here it's a matter of life or death.
That said, I think anti-abortion advocates who bomb or burn down abortion clinics, or who murder abortion doctors, are hypocritical in the extreme. The irony of it is disgusting.
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It seems quite apalling for one to be so arrogant as to kill something which they accidentally or puposefully conceived.. If you're not going to be responsible go get yourself a vasectomy...
However... why is it wrong to kill humans before they are born but not to kill chicken before they are born? If it's because we're hunters and we can kill and eat to sustain ourselves (and of course we're most important to ourselves right?) then is it not for the survival of the mother that she is aborting? Is it wrong to kill for survival?
By the way.. why is individual life important? I mean, if you're going to argue it's survival of a species why don't we clone so many humans every year to sustain population? Or is it another one of those 'morality' things that you can't rationalize because it's simply community-induced restrictions based on coded behavior? (please don't say "what if you were the child" stuff because I'm not, never will be and can't appreciate being spared if I WAS that fetus anyway)
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I don't see anything universally wrong with abortion, but then again there is nothing wrong with killing a person either; heck, as far as that matters, both actions are equivalent to something like breaking up a pile of dirt. :D And from an economic/social standpoint, life is very cheap simply due to its great abundance.
What I find funny though is that many of these abortion advocates are also the humanistic types, saying that it is fine to abort the fetus (or the pile of dirt, for that matter) but it is not okay to do anything to a live human; as Kamikaze said, this is both contradictory and stupid. :p
Say you find out your unborn child is destined for a life of debilitating handicap. Some argue that if you choose to abort that child you're denying him a chance at life. But then you could just as well argue that if you keep the baby, you're denying life to the one you would have conceived after it.
Actually, to extend this argument, you could also say that by not spending every moment of your existence conceiving children, you are "denying" these potential children their chance at life. :D
and besides.. If I were a thirteen year old schoo / whore.. I wouldn't necasarily want a child .. and I don't think you would either.
in this case, abort both the child and the parents. :D
Before I say anything else, I fully support the right to choose your own path.
I say that people are just deluded by society into thinking that they have a right to "free choices;" nobody has any rights to choose because nobody has any true capability to choose in the first place. :D
There's a marvelously written article here that convincingly argues that a human being is a human being from the moment of conception.
Actually, it could easily be argued that the pile of dirt mentioned earlier will form a human being too, given time and the appropriate conditions (which is true in the case of a fetus as well). :D
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I have a question, would the same go if you were to take your own life?
Cause here in Holland we are allowed euthanasia. The act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, as by lethal injection or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment. The illness does not have to be lethal.
Ow, yeah, this does need doctors approval (or psychiatrist).
I think this is a good law since people would kill themselves anyway if they really wanted.
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One has a moral obligation to preserve one's own life, within reason. I think it is morally acceptable to end one's life by discontinuing extraordinary measures to prolong it (e.g. life support), but I do not think it is morally permissible to end one's life intentionally (such as via lethal injection) without an objective reason.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
One has a moral obligation to preserve one's own life, within reason. I think it is morally acceptable to end one's life by discontinuing extraordinary measures to prolong it (e.g. life support), but I do not think it is morally permissible to end one's life intentionally (such as via lethal injection) without an objective reason.
So if you were viciously scarred by a raging fire in your house, your family was killed, you live in horrible pain but yet you can live without medicines you wouldn't want to kill yourself? I would. I for one will not live in horrible pains for years to come. Not being able to do what I want due to that same pain.
Also the loss of your family wouldn't exactly help.
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Well, it could just as easily be argued that one has a "moral obligation" not to sit on chairs, or something like that. :D I think that there is of course nothing wrong with killing oneself, but like I said, there is nothing wrong with anything for that matter. (I think there is actually a law against this around here; what are they going to do, put the corpse in prison? :rolleyes: :D)
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In holland that law is changed and you can now do this :p Yeah, i know... Holland is almost always the first with these things :D
And yeah, whats the point of forbidding it? :lol:
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
It's not like a fetus is a "real" human being anyway...
and besides.. If I were a thirteen year old schoo / whore.. I wouldn't necasarily want a child .. and I don't think you would either.
Oh, please. Where do you draw the line at a "real" human being then? Birth? So all those premature babies aren't "real" humans until 9 months from their conception? Or perhaps you define it from the moment a fetus is able to survive outside the womb? Which doesn't make sense, either, because a newborn baby - fully developed, with the full 9 months in their mothers' womb - cannot survive outside the womb on their own.
Modern science is always advancing, and I'm sure that the premature stage at which a baby is born and is able to be kept alive is getting earlier and earlier with new technologies, etc. So does that define when a fetus is considered to be a "real" human - when it's possible to keep them alive, with all modern medicine can do to help, outside the womb? And such an age would have to be constantly redefined as time goes on, of course. Which, to me, makes it total nonsense.
IMHO, the Chinese have it right. Life begins at conception.
Originally posted by IceFire
It crosses the line when someone tries to burn down an abortion clinic.
Originally posted by Goober5000
That said, I think anti-abortion advocates who bomb or burn down abortion clinics, or who murder abortion doctors, are hypocritical in the extreme. The irony of it is disgusting.
Agreed 100% - that is hypocrisy of the first degree, aside from being murder if someone dies.
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Pfff. By allowing all the deaf, blind and stupid people to grow old and breed we're just polluting the gene pool. Natural selection got us electronics, understanding of the atom and up into space, so why in God's name would we abandon it so easily.
Not only should disabled people be killed (right up until their natural death), their parents (and thus their defective genes) should either be killed or neutered. Unless they've got some miraculous genetic factor which would allow them to significantly contribute (ala Stephen Hawkins).
It may sound cruel, but think of all the extra billions they'd have to invest in things like cancer research, child welfare and even put it towards finding cures for deafness, blindness etc. You can either kill a cripple and use the $1 million a year medical fees to get 5 kids out of abusive, violent, possibly lethal homes, cure cancer, feed the millions of starving etheopians or you can spend the money fitting a ramp so the cripple can roll up into school and be picked on.
The problem with the world isn't that people don't care, it's that they're too damn busy trying to help one or two high-profile things that they forget about the millions of everday troubles.
For example: Invading Iraq. They could be spending that money on building homes for tramps and thus reducing crime.
Political parties *****ing about "We need more money for the health service" and then they go spend £5 million printing posters about how the health service needs money.
To summarise: Killing cripples will create a utopia. And everyone is a ****ing hypocrit.
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And this is why computer nerds like our an0n here don't run the country :)
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If I ran the country, it really would be a utopia.
All leaders nowadays are either crazy or too troubled by keeping everyone happy that no-one ends up happy. For example, the NHS needs cash, right? So cut off the dole and let the free-loaders either find a job or starve. But no, we can't do that, because then all the free-loaders would vote for the other guy next time round. Eventually it'll just end up like Jamaica was/is with rival parties killing each other because the leaders have promise their supporters wealth and power and the opposition death and fire.
Democracy doesn't ****ing work!
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Originally posted by an0n
If I ran the country, it really would be a utopia.
By running around ensuring that everyone was the perfect human being and exterminating the rest?
I don't think that should be a government policy at all. Thats way too much control in entirely the wrong hands. The decision to abort a child I believe rests largely in the hands of those who are directly involved. I think there should be some guidelines...such as abortion isn't a method of birth control and so on. So we have those directly involved and a family doctor or specialist.
Systematic extermination and sterilization is not a solution by any means.
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Originally posted by an0n
Pfff. By allowing all the deaf, blind and stupid people to grow old and breed we're just polluting the gene pool. Natural selection got us electronics, understanding of the atom and up into space, so why in God's name would we abandon it so easily.
That depends on your moral view of things. I would argue that God's blessing allowed us to do all those things. And as the author of life, God wants us to preserve human life.
If you take God out of the picture, you could argue (similar to the abortion argument) that all life is intrinsicly valuable and that we have a moral obligation to allow everyone a chance at life.
Not only should disabled people be killed (right up until their natural death)
:wtf: :lol:
their parents (and thus their defective genes) should either be killed or neutered
So some lives are more valuable than others? Who are you to say that?
Unless they've got some miraculous genetic factor which would allow them to significantly contribute (ala Stephen Hawkins).
You expose the fallacy of your argument here. How would we have known if we hadn't attempted to preserve his life?
Similarly, there's that "would you have aborted Beethoven" story, which may be urban legend (not quite sure) but is still something to think about.
Killing cripples will create a utopia.
Not for them.
And everyone is a hypocrite.
No argument there. :)
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Originally posted by Sandwich
I agree, but then again I'm against abortion in general.
...And don't try to stick me with that "rape pregnancies" crap - there are _plenty_ of people in the world who are dying to adopt. :doubt:
Abortion = murder
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
So will an egg and sperm :wtf:
That's like the Bill Hicks skit...
"...whole universes have gone crusty in my navel..."
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Originally posted by Stealth
Abortion = murder
A compelling argument. I propose this counterpoint:
Abortion != murder.
:p
If a woman who's firmly pro-life is pregnant, then has a miscarriage, does she insist on a funeral? After all, from her POV a "real" person just died. :doubt:
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Originally posted by Goober5000
So some lives are more valuable than others? Who are you to say that?
~-=™! Yes, they are. And why should I not be allowed to dictate life and/or death? Are you saying that just because someone get 51% of the population to vote for them that THEY should be allowed to dictate who lives or dies through laws and wars? **** that. I have as much, if not more, right to play God than most others. !™=-~
You expose the fallacy of your argument here. How would we have known if we hadn't attempted to preserve his life?
~-=™! Because the genetic tests that exposed the deformities would also have brought to light the super-genius and therefore Cripple+Genius=Normal/Acceptable !™=-~
Similarly, there's that "would you have aborted Beethoven" story, which may be urban legend (not quite sure) but is still something to think about.
~-=™! But Beethoven had sufficiently strong genetics to fight off tuberculosis, therefore he has desirable genetic traits and thus would have been allowed to breed with a person whose genetic structures showed a strong chance of negating his deafness. !™=-~
Not for them.
~-=™! If you believe ni heaven it will. And if you don't then all life is worthless anyway so, kill 'em. !™=-~
No argument there. :)
~-=™! Oh the irony. !™=-~
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Originally posted by ZylonBane
If a woman who's firmly pro-life is pregnant, then has a miscarriage, does she insist on a funeral? After all, from her POV a "real" person just died. :doubt:
Not a funeral, but often they have a wake or some similar remembrance. They're often heartbroken that they've lost the baby.
Originally posted by an0n
Why should I not be allowed to dictate life and/or death?
You're not God. QED.
I have as much, if not more, right to play God than most others.
:wtf: No one who is not God has a right to play God.
Because the genetic tests that exposed the deformities would also have brought to light the super-genius and therefore Cripple+Genius=Normal/Acceptable
Well now you're making another judgement call. How do we decide what is valuable to society and thus worth keeping?
If you believe ni heaven it will.
True, but at the same time, everyone deserves a shot at life.
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an0n: some good ideas there, but by the time society becomes a really integrated unit like this, science will have progressed far enough so that you can just have your cloning vats generate whatever types of humans are wanted for the whole. :D
Abortion = murder
Actually, here is another equally true statement:
breaking up a mound of dirt = murder
:D
Modern science is always advancing, and I'm sure that the premature stage at which a baby is born and is able to be kept alive is getting earlier and earlier with new technologies, etc. So does that define when a fetus is considered to be a "real" human - when it's possible to keep them alive, with all modern medicine can do to help, outside the womb? And such an age would have to be constantly redefined as time goes on, of course. Which, to me, makes it total nonsense.
Ah, I think you have caught on here. :nod: Now keep following up this argument further up and see what you get; at some point, humans will probably be able to turn dust into life, so the dust would be life too. The whole thing about life, non-life and whatever else is completely meaningless; everything is alive and and everything is dead. :D
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Originally Posted by Sandwich
IMHO, the Chinese have it right. Life begins at conception.
I didn't really expect anyone to respond but uh.. weren't the cinese (or maybe it was the japanesse..) the ones who killed non-male newborns?
In a (twisted, perhaps) way, an0n's logic could work, and well. Yes it may be 'cold' but only if you take it the wrong way. I think there are already to many Idiots though in the world right now that wouldn't allow it to extend to it's full potential.
:doubt:
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Hmm... oddly I was voicing an opinion quite similar to an0n's...
tests would be made and all 'dumb' people (don't ask me how it'll be gauged) and people with generally bad genes would be peacefully exterminated to keep a nice gene pool.
The idea also was that the killed humans would be used as food to decrease load on agriculture, but most people didn't take that policy well :p
On the issue of "who are you to decide who dies?" - it doesn't matter what 'morals' dictate, it's "he can, and he does"... (whether that makes said rulers arrogant, or immoral it doesn't m atter in this case)
Oh... by the way: if god really thinks people shouldn't play god, let's see him run some lightning through an0n there. (assuming he becomes world leader) :lol:
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
EDIT: TWO THOUSAND POSTS!!
Congrats, GE.
i sure post for the wrong reasons now dont I? what? spam you say?
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Originally posted by Kamikaze
Oh... by the way: if god really thinks people shouldn't play god, let's see him run some lightning through an0n there. (assuming he becomes world leader) :lol:
...look at the ignorance
*shakes head*
*walks away*
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Originally posted by Stealth
...look at the ignorance
*shakes head*
*walks away*
?
It was implied that playing god was somehow bad and if a god exists then god must be the one to dictate that it's "bad" right? Therefore if god is pissed off at an0n for breaking rules would he not intervene? Or does god simply not intervene in these matters?
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Originally posted by Kamikaze
?
It was implied that playing god was somehow bad and if a god exists then god must be the one to dictate that it's "bad" right? Therefore if god is pissed off at an0n for breaking rules would he not intervene? Or does god simply not intervene in these matters?
Does god intervene in ANY matter?
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I think god just fears an0n in particular. He just hasn't worked up the might..
It's like teasing a pmssed woman.. you don't screw with that. Find someplace to stay away.
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Eh... I am God. God of MY life. :ha:
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Is that in any way related to KT's post?
*runs*
*ambles back*
I truly intend to do two things in my life, rule the world (or at least a small part of it which I can isolate from all outside influences till they annihilate themselves) and destroy all time and space, not just in this universe but in every alternate dimension which is discovered along the way.
So my theory is that God will let me get power, wealth and what not, maybe even become immortal, but then he'll distract me with something like the ability to master all time and space thus occupying me for the rest of eternity and stopping me from initiating my final solu....errr....goal.
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Originally posted by an0n
Is that in any way related to KT's post?
*runs*
*ambles back*
I truly intend to do two things in my life, rule the world (or at least a small part of it which I can isolate from all outside influences till they annihilate themselves) and destroy all time and space, not just in this universe but in every alternate dimension which is discovered along the way.
So my theory is that God will let me get power, wealth and what not, maybe even become immortal, but then he'll distract me with something like the ability to master all time and space thus occupying me for the rest of eternity and stopping me from initiating my final solu....errr....goal.
I spy a religion thread in the making.
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Originally posted by 01010
I spy a religion thread in the making.
I spy a "close thread" button being pressed...
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
So will an egg and sperm :wtf:
Not until they're combined. :p
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Originally posted by Kamikaze
?
It was implied that playing god was somehow bad and if a god exists then god must be the one to dictate that it's "bad" right? Therefore if god is pissed off at an0n for breaking rules would he not intervene? Or does god simply not intervene in these matters?
if someone goes and murders someone, the trial is NEVER straight away... sometimes he waits years, or his whole life for his trial/conviction.
have you ever thought it might work the same way?
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......That's because of the ****ed-up state of the judicial system. Being omnipotent, I think God could probably speed up the process.
Anyway, I hardly think God is going to allow the deaths of several hundred trillion 'people' just to give fair time for me to be judged.
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Originally posted by an0n
......That's because of the ****ed-up state of the judicial system. Being omnipotent, I think God could probably speed up the process.
Anyway, I hardly think God is going to allow the deaths of several hundred trillion 'people' just to give fair time for me to be judged.
*shrugs*
true... perhaps God wants to take his time... for a reason.
if you read the Bible you'll know why.
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Still not much of a "Divine Rapture" in me slaughtering everyone. Ain't the apocalypse supposed to be 'presided over' by angels?
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2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
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but then couldn't he just modify the minds of his people so that they do "come to repentance?" If he really wanted it, he would have already done it. :D
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Because he doesn't want robots. You can't meaningfully love a robot. He wants people that love him of their own free will.
EDIT: an0n, what are you trying to get at with this?
Still not much of a "Divine Rapture" in me slaughtering everyone. Ain't the apocalypse supposed to be 'presided over' by angels?
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Hmm.... half this thread makes me feel guilty for masturbating. :wtf: :eek2:
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Originally posted by Goober5000
an0n, what are you trying to get at with this?
THE TRUTH!
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Originally posted by an0n
THE TRUTH!
Naturally. I just didn't understand the object of your question.
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Originally posted by vyper
Hmm.... half this thread makes me feel guilty for masturbating. :wtf: :eek2:
NEVAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRR
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I always feel guilty when masturbating. I know I shouldn't use the teddy, but I can't help it!
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Originally posted by an0n
I always feel guilty when masturbating. I know I shouldn't use the teddy, but I can't help it!
Don't feel guilty until people start to notice the matted fur. Then you just wash it.
What? :nervous:
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You sure he meant that kind of teddy? Maybe he just admitting to dressing up in womens lingerie? :D
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very good Goober...
i also meant another reason why God doesn't interfere with human's affairs at this time... obviously an0n and various others don't know why.
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Originally posted by Stealth
very good Goober...
i also meant another reason why God doesn't interfere with human's affairs at this time... obviously an0n and various others don't know why.
::smack::
No religion, I'm sure there's a thread like that knocking about somewhere.
Now...back to masturbating er....umm...masturbation.
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Originally posted by karajorma
You sure he meant that kind of teddy? Maybe he just admitting to dressing up in womens lingerie? :D
You say that like its a bad thing.
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You know you wanna stroke my big, wooly ears.
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Originally posted by an0n
You know you wanna stroke my big, wooly ears.
I...just...can't...resist...the...ears.
::Sobs::
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if you dont masturbate, you just do it in your sleep...
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Give me one good reason not to lock this thread then go and wash my hands?
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*Hurriedly pushes the "Close Thread" buttpm*
Damn, wrong forum!
*Runs screaming into the night*
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Originally posted by Thunder
Give me one good reason not to lock this thread then go and wash my hands?
Because Zeronet and Grey-Wolf are using the bathroom?
*runs*
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Originally posted by Zeronet
if you dont masturbate, you just do it in your sleep...
:wtf:
Ok freakyboy, maybe YOU do but not I. In fact my hands are cuffed to the bedpos......
Shut up.
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:rolleyes: Your just being immature.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
:rolleyes: Your just being immature.
Which, I think you'll find, is by far the most fun form of maturity :)
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Lock this thread. NOW.
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Confirming Ion Painter lock...
...lock confirmed.
Prepare to charge main beam.
Beam Ready.
Fire!![/b]
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Originally posted by Thunder
Confirming Ion Painter lock...
...lock confirmed.
Prepare to charge main beam.
Beam Ready.
Fire!![/b] [/B]
Heh - at least Thunder makes locking threads fun. :p
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No, I'm just sad and pathetic ;)
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Originally posted by Thunder
No, I'm just sad and pathetic ;)
Agreed. :D
(it's fun replying to locked threads) ;7