Hard Light Productions Forums

Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Shrike on December 11, 2002, 10:54:50 am

Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Shrike on December 11, 2002, 10:54:50 am
http://www.microsoft.com/games/freelancer/

Still pretty thin on more of the background info, but they've started to get the universe section up.

Now, it'd be a nice surprise if it shipped with joystick support as well as mouse/keyboard.
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Stealth on December 11, 2002, 10:55:31 am
that site's been up for a while hasnt' it?
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Unknown Target on December 11, 2002, 10:57:38 am
Bah, Freelancer blows, don't touch me :D.
Seriously, not being able to use a ****in' JOYSTICK in a SPACE-COMBAT-GAME?!!??!
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: mikhael on December 11, 2002, 10:59:09 am
Quote
Originally posted by Unknown Target
Bah, Freelancer blows, don't touch me :D.
Seriously, not being able to use a ****in' JOYSTICK in a SPACE-COMBAT-GAME?!!??!


Preach it, brother.

If its got stick support I'll buy it, in a heartbeat. Without it, and I'll do my best to convince people not to shell out their cash. I hope it has stick support, because screens like this do not give me hope:
(http://www.microsoft.com/games/freelancer/images/screenshots/fl_ss_ss_009.jpg)

BTW: that site's been there for a long time, Shrike. This, however, is a complete redesign of that site.
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: heretic on December 11, 2002, 11:14:45 am
what a shame though- freelancer's been delayed, what, a year now?
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Redfang on December 11, 2002, 11:46:34 am
I haven't got a joystick anyway, and I don't plan on getting one. :p
 
Hope they'll do good controls for mouse&keyboard then.
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Nico on December 11, 2002, 03:15:49 pm
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael

Without it, and I'll do my best to convince people not to shell out their cash.  


bah, I used to be sceptical, but I eventually decided  not to judge the controls before trying them out by myself first.
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Unknown Target on December 11, 2002, 04:17:47 pm
Aquanox works well with it, but that has super-fast gameplay.
Something tells me this doesn't...
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: mikhael on December 11, 2002, 05:04:54 pm
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506


bah, I used to be sceptical, but I eventually decided  not to judge the controls before trying them out by myself first.


You can hammer nails with the end of a screwdriver, but its not a good way to do it.

Really now, can you describe a possible way that you can arrange ship controls using a MOUSE that will not suck, Venom? I'm not asking much. I'll listen. I'll even try the demo. Unless its absolutely revolutionary and exactly perfect, I'll not give up a joystick.

I'm a born skeptic. It took a lot of convincing to get me to abandon a pure keyboard control scheme for DOOM and Quake and move to mouse/keyboard. Its going to take me just as much convincing to get me to think of a MOUSE as bit of flight controls.

Wheels are made from driving games, sticks are made from piloting games, pads are made for consoles and arcade games and the mouse was made for flying windows and selecting text.
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Levyathan on December 11, 2002, 08:25:21 pm
I've managed to efficiently use Shock 1's controls. After that, anything's possible.
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: JC Denton on December 11, 2002, 09:03:43 pm
Quote
Originally posted by heretic
what a shame though- freelancer's been delayed, what, a year now?


Freelancer - The Daikatana of the 21st century...

And I agree that there's not any sense in them not including joystick support.  Apparently, it's going to be given a similar treatment as Earth & Beyond (shudders), removing the joystick element to "simplify the flight model" my ass, I think it's harder to fly without a stick.  Not anywhere near as intuitive.

Or is this just to keep the fat bureaucrats (read:  Sen. Lieberman & his ilk) in Washington all nice 'n complacent?

Dammit, entertainment should not be political!!!
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: CP5670 on December 11, 2002, 09:16:29 pm
Quote
It took a lot of convincing to get me to abandon a pure keyboard control scheme for DOOM and Quake and move to mouse/keyboard.


Actually, I still use this configuration today for FPS games, and it works great. (it's harder to aim but much easier to move/dodge :D)

Quote
Freelancer - The Daikatana of the 21st century...


That is sort of what I am beginning to think, seeing how much it has been delayed and the controversy that has started to develop... :blah:
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Stryke 9 on December 11, 2002, 09:44:55 pm
Quote
Originally posted by JC Denton


Freelancer - The Daikatana of the 21st century...


Oy. Wouldn't that suck. [winces]

Quote
Or is this just to keep the fat bureaucrats (read:  Sen. Lieberman & his ilk) in Washington all nice 'n complacent?


There's some kind of War On Joysticks I'm unaware of? Wouldn't that be COOL? I can't wait to hear Tipper stand up and give a speech on the evils of joysticks!
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Stealth on December 11, 2002, 10:03:24 pm
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael

You can hammer nails with the end of a screwdriver, but its not a good way to do it.

Really now, can you describe a possible way that you can arrange ship controls using a MOUSE that will not suck, Venom? I'm not asking much. I'll listen. I'll even try the demo. Unless its absolutely revolutionary and exactly perfect, I'll not give up a joystick.

I'm a born skeptic. It took a lot of convincing to get me to abandon a pure keyboard control scheme for DOOM and Quake and move to mouse/keyboard. Its going to take me just as much convincing to get me to think of a MOUSE as bit of flight controls.

Wheels are made from driving games, sticks are made from piloting games, pads are made for consoles and arcade games and the mouse was made for flying windows and selecting text.


using a mouse would completely suck, i agree... but a KEYBOARD is still good!  99% of my "playing time" of Freespace 1, 2, Descent 1, 2, and 3, i use a keyboard... i just like it better... cause i hate using a joystick and keyboard when you can just use a keyboard (or vice-versa)...

see, in Descent 1 and even 2 to an extent it was easy to just use a joystick, cause all you did was fire primary, secondary, go forward, and backward (and steer, of course) ... but then i got a lot into the sliding left, right, and stuff, as i got more experienced.

that's why i switched for a while, (which ended up permanently) to keyboard... keyboard is the best... find me any joystick that has as many keys as the keyboard (so you can do multiple things at once, without switching from joystick to keyboard) and i'll take it :D

i dunno, i can see why people love the joystick, but now i actually fly better in FS1 with a keyboard than a joystick by far!

Mouse has always sucked, at all of the Descent/Freespace series... not a good enough response time, and when you adjust it... it goes up to when you SLIGHTLY move the mouse you turn completely around... it's pathetic :D
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: mikhael on December 11, 2002, 10:29:16 pm
Stick and throttle--and peddles if you have them. Its the One True Way.

Why use a keyboard? Its good for typing, but not as a controller. Why use a mouse? its good for pointing but not as a controller. Programmable HOTAS. That's the way to go. I mean, DAMN. Thrustmaster made HOTAS good, and Saitek made HOTAS cheap.

I'm all for using the mouse in Baldur's Gate. My tasks there are point and click and click and drag. That's GOOD.

In Driver, my task is to control a car. Why in hell would I try to control a car with a mouse or a keyboard? That's why there's wheels.

If I want to fly something, be it in atmosphere or in space (or even underwater, though I guess that's not flight), its gotta be stick and throttle.
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Stealth on December 11, 2002, 10:34:13 pm
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Stick and throttle--and peddles if you have them. Its the One True Way.

Why use a keyboard? Its good for typing, but not as a controller. Why use a mouse? its good for pointing but not as a controller. Programmable HOTAS. That's the way to go. I mean, DAMN. Thrustmaster made HOTAS good, and Saitek made HOTAS cheap.

I'm all for using the mouse in Baldur's Gate. My tasks there are point and click and click and drag. That's GOOD.

In Driver, my task is to control a car. Why in hell would I try to control a car with a mouse or a keyboard? That's why there's wheels.

If I want to fly something, be it in atmosphere or in space (or even underwater, though I guess that's not flight), its gotta be stick and throttle.


well of course i use the mouse in SOME games...
Starcraft i don't think you can play without a mouse, lol, and if you did you'd suck at it, cause you couldn't point at stuff quick enough :D
Tribes is an awesome game with the mouse ;)

I understand they make joysticks nowadays with like 15 programmable buttons and all, but i'm already USED to the keyboard... i don't have to think "wait... 'fire' is button 17 on this joystick"... i dunno, i just prefer the keyboard
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: mikhael on December 11, 2002, 10:47:30 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Stealth

I understand they make joysticks nowadays with like 15 programmable buttons and all, but i'm already USED to the keyboard... i don't have to think "wait... 'fire' is button 17 on this joystick"... i dunno, i just prefer the keyboard


Actually this speaks directly to the point of using a HOTAS setup in the first place. You know where all of your controls on your keyboard are. If they're not where you like them, you remap them. I'm betting that you probably reuse one basic scheme for all games that are similar, with only very game-specific variations.

When you're using a throttle and stick, you don't have to think about where anything is. You map your controls where you think they should be (like you do on the keyboard). As I pointed out in another thread, there's over 300 distinct programmable "button" events on my chosen stick.  I don't have to change the programming very much though:

trigger is always fire primary.
the big red thumb button is always fire secondary.
The coolie hat is always enemy targetting.

Once you set your controls and get everything configured, you don't think about them. You dont' have to wonder "where's that sniper zoom?". Sniper Zoom is under the left index finger. Comms? Right thumb, at the side.

Now, think about going from a set of good controls and being forced to use a MOUSE to play a game that by common sense should use a stick (or in your case, the keyboard). I think it pretty much sucks. The demo better rock the house and mouse control better make me forget my stick, because they'll not get any of my money otherwise.

Dogfighting with a mouse. PLEASE. What sense does that make?
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Kamikaze on December 11, 2002, 11:04:25 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Stealth


well of course i use the mouse in SOME games...
Starcraft i don't think you can play without a mouse, lol, and if you did you'd suck at it, cause you couldn't point at stuff quick enough :D
Tribes is an awesome game with the mouse ;)

I understand they make joysticks nowadays with like 15 programmable buttons and all, but i'm already USED to the keyboard... i don't have to think "wait... 'fire' is button 17 on this joystick"... i dunno, i just prefer the keyboard


Actually my flight control system has a mouse thing on it :D It's a saitek x45
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: mikhael on December 11, 2002, 11:43:38 pm
So do the thrustmaster sticks, but they're really just eight way hats.  Who needs a mouse? I just map it as a hat and have fun. :)
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Nico on December 12, 2002, 03:20:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael


You can hammer nails with the end of a screwdriver, but its not a good way to do it.

Really now, can you describe a possible way that you can arrange ship controls using a MOUSE that will not suck, Venom? I'm not asking much. I'll listen. I'll even try the demo. Unless its absolutely revolutionary and exactly perfect, I'll not give up a joystick.

I'm a born skeptic. It took a lot of convincing to get me to abandon a pure keyboard control scheme for DOOM and Quake and move to mouse/keyboard. Its going to take me just as much convincing to get me to think of a MOUSE as bit of flight controls.

Wheels are made from driving games, sticks are made from piloting games, pads are made for consoles and arcade games and the mouse was made for flying windows and selecting text.


dunno. I think it could be very cool, but for a realistic space sim with newtonian physics, I admit. You'd control the ship ala descent ( don't listen to stealth, I playe descent 1 and 2 ith the keyboard only and descent3 with the mouse+keyboard combo, there's no comparison, coz in quake or UT you can allow yourself not to aim that great, but in descent if you don't aim right, you're dead ). So I said you control ala descent, but obviously with more controls and stuff. but sure freelancer won't be like that, of course. but as you said it took you a long time before switching to mouse+keyboard ( me too, played a lot of doomlikes when I was younger, and tried the keboard+mouse combo only with thief I think ), but aren't you glad to have done so now? so I just say give the men their chance, and if they screw up, you can tear their guts from the seventh level of hell up to Mars if it pleases you.
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Crazy_Ivan80 on December 12, 2002, 05:28:17 am
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Stick and throttle--and peddles if you have them. Its the One True Way.
 


Not if you're left handed. Which I am. Which means it's a ***** to find a decent joystick. (Luckely I found one 4 years ago. And I recently bought another one of those -last one- in case my current one breaks down)
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Styxx on December 12, 2002, 06:19:29 am
Meh, I'd need a decent joystick in the first place... :p
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Nico on December 12, 2002, 07:05:02 am
Quote
Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80


Not if you're left handed. Which I am. Which means it's a ***** to find a decent joystick. (Luckely I found one 4 years ago. And I recently bought another one of those -last one- in case my current one breaks down)


such a lame excuse :doubt:
I'm right handed and had to use the mouse with the left hand for various reasons, got ued to it, now I can hardly use the mouse with the right hand. If you try, you can, especially that it's not like it's any difficult to do.
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: karajorma on December 12, 2002, 07:57:13 am
Besides there are joysticks like the Saitek cyborg that can be used by right or left handed people.
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Stealth on December 12, 2002, 10:34:31 am
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
So do the thrustmaster sticks, but they're really just eight way hats.  Who needs a mouse? I just map it as a hat and have fun. :)



i never figured out what to use the "hat" stick for... in FS1 and FS2... ther'esnot really anything you need
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Stealth on December 12, 2002, 10:35:44 am
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
( don't listen to stealth, I playe descent 1 and 2 ith the keyboard only and descent3 with the mouse+keyboard combo, there's no comparison, coz in quake or UT you can allow yourself not to aim that great, but in descent if you don't aim right, you're dead  


*shrugs*  i dunno... i guess i've always been better with the keyboard than a joystick, cause i grew up with a keyboard and no joystick, so i'm used to it :0
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: mikhael on December 12, 2002, 11:02:08 am
Quote
Originally posted by Stealth

i never figured out what to use the "hat" stick for... in FS1 and FS2... ther'esnot really anything you need


Yeah, ususally I run out of controls in a game before I run out of controls on the stick.

Freespace has some truly wonderful targetting and wingman command options that few people know about though. I once had a hat triple mapped for Freespace comms and my my target-friend and target-foe hats double mapped. I found I didn't use too terribly many, but they were there if I needed them. Target Target's Target, Target Target's Attacker, and Target Escort were particularly useful in escort missions--especially when you set up a key that was, essentially, "Target Escorted Ship, Target Targets Attacker".  You could extend that theme to "Target Escorted, Alpha Wing Defend My Target, Target Target's Attacker" and so on.

One of the guys on the INA-IWar2  forums rebound his keys so that Trigger2 (second trigger position) set his weapons to max power, then fired as long as he held the trigger, then set the power back to normal when he released the trigger. That's suicide in my opinion, but it worked for him. I always set Trigger1 to "fire burst" and trigger2 to "auto fire". :D

Venom: I said I'd give them the chance and I will. That's what demos are for. The problem, though, is that when moving from keyboard only to keyboard/mouse for First Person games you're going from a poor control setup to a good control setup. Freelancer, with mouse, will be going from a good setup (stick/throttle) and moving to a poor setup (mouse).

Stealth: The whole lefthanded vs righthanded stick design thing is stupid at best. Nintendo screwed the righties of the world by bucking the Atari tradition of "stick on right, buttons on left" when they put out the Famicom/NES controller. Every console that has followed since, and many arcade games, have followed that trend. We righties don't have a problem with that. Further, in real vehicles, they don't make special accomodation for lefties or righties. As I recall most aircraft have the stick centered, but the throttle is still to one side (usually wherever its convenient).
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Nico on December 12, 2002, 11:39:33 am
Quote
Originally posted by Stealth



i never figured out what to use the "hat" stick for... in FS1 and FS2... ther'esnot really anything you need


targetting, that's what I use it for
btw, about descent I was talking mouse, not joystick ;)
Title: Official Freelancer site online
Post by: Redfang on December 12, 2002, 12:06:29 pm
I play with keyboard/mouse. Every game. Though one reason for that is that I don't have any game pads/joysticks/wheels or anything. Though I don't need one either, I play stuff like RPG's, strategys, shooters and what not. Not sims, except FS2. I play it with keyboard only, as mouse is too slow even with sensitivitity as highest (though that might change with my new computer (and mouse) coming in ~week), and joystick would be good. But I'm not going to buy a joystick for just one game, even if it's a perfect game like FS2. :)
 
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670


Actually, I still use this configuration today for FPS games, and it works great. (it's harder to aim but much easier to move/dodge :D)
Eh? You play keyboard only? Keyboarder?
 
It's not harder to aim, it's ultra hard to aim, and it doesn't certainly help moving/dodging, just makes it harder, as you need more fingers near each other.