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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: mikhael on January 08, 2003, 05:46:37 am

Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: mikhael on January 08, 2003, 05:46:37 am
Turns out that Gravity transmits at the speed of light (http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993232), not faster. Among other possible ramifications, this may limit the number of possible physical dimensions the universe may have.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Kazashi on January 08, 2003, 06:10:05 am
I'm not too confident about that margin of error. It's like someone saying "This GF FX can achieve 25,000 3DMarks, with a MOE of 6000 3DMarks."  With those results they could claim it to fit into a lot of theories. I'll give it a few dozen years until they refine the technique - it took hundreds of years to get the exact speed of light.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Shrike on January 08, 2003, 06:18:57 am
On the other hand, this more or less proves that gravity isn't instantaneous, which was the main point of the experiement, no?
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Styxx on January 08, 2003, 06:46:10 am
* wonders about the effects of that on the next Honor Harrington book *

:D
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Eishtmo on January 08, 2003, 11:13:08 am
You just found this out?

The experiment only confirmed what is generally excepted my most physists anyway, so it's nothing new.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Nico on January 08, 2003, 11:32:12 am
Quote
Originally posted by Eishtmo
You just found this out?

The experiment only confirmed what is generally excepted my most physists anyway, so it's nothing new.


her.. but it's important. coz unless it's proven right a theory is a theory, and as worth as crap when it comes to be used for anything, you know. Would have been another result, I would have laughed :p
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: CP5670 on January 08, 2003, 02:02:43 pm
Interesting stuff here, but I suppose this would upset some of the string theory, right?

Quote
her.. but it's important. coz unless it's proven right a theory is a theory, and as worth as crap when it comes to be used for anything, you know. Would have been another result, I would have laughed


Even then though, it is impossible to rigorously prove any physics law; even now, we just know that it is very likely true, which we already knew before anyway, just to a slightly lesser extent. :D
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Zeronet on January 08, 2003, 02:20:20 pm
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506


her.. but it's important. coz unless it's proven right a theory is a theory, and as worth as crap when it comes to be used for anything, you know. Would have been another result, I would have laughed :p


Its still a theory, you can only disprove things concluesively in science.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Bishop Gantry on January 08, 2003, 03:45:33 pm
A but is gravity constant... the more  gravity the more powerful it becomes... all they have proven with their theory so far is that weak gravity moves proportional to the speed of light...
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Nico on January 08, 2003, 03:48:49 pm
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Interesting stuff here, but I suppose this would upset some of the string theory, right?



Even then though, it is impossible to rigorously prove any physics law; even now, we just know that it is very likely true, which we already knew before anyway, just to a slightly lesser extent. :D

yeah I know, but at least it's proven right in certain circumstances.
I know it's been proven that 1+1 doesn't always  equal2, for exemple  ( it was a thing about star masses or something like that ). But when it's never been verified in any way, it can be complete bull****.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Stryke 9 on January 08, 2003, 04:10:29 pm
Verified bull****?

There's a point where science gets silly. It's about the point where the nature of time is theorized on, basic mathematics becomes insanely complicated, and everything becomes essentially guesswork.

If it's got "quantum" in front of the name, it's best assumed hokum until demonstrable or applicable.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Sesquipedalian on January 08, 2003, 05:52:18 pm
Agreed.  Science is good at what it is meant to do, investigating measureable physical phenomena.  When a physicist, for example, steps outside of the realm of the physical, however, that's when science goes bad (http://permanentpeace.org/foundation.html).

That's right boys and girls, if we all get together and meditate, quatum mencahnics and Unified Field Theory (whaddaya mean no one has come up with an operational UFT?  We've got one right here!  Now go empty your mind, you!) will guarantee that we can stop all further terrorist actions. It's science, I tell ya! :rolleyes:
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: 01010 on January 08, 2003, 05:54:02 pm
Quote
Originally posted by StrykeIX
Verified bull****?

There's a point where science gets silly. It's about the point where the nature of time is theorized on, basic mathematics becomes insanely complicated, and everything becomes essentially guesswork.

If it's got "quantum" in front of the name, it's best assumed hokum until demonstrable or applicable.


Quantum Masturbation.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Kamikaze on January 08, 2003, 06:18:59 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Agreed.  Science is good at what it is meant to do, investigating measureable physical phenomena.  When a physicist, for example, steps outside of the realm of the physical, however, that's when science goes bad (http://permanentpeace.org/foundation.html).

That's right boys and girls, if we all get together and meditate, quatum mencahnics and Unified Field Theory (whaddaya mean no one has come up with an operational UFT?  We've got one right here!  Now go empty your mind, you!) will guarantee that we can stop all further terrorist actions. It's science, I tell ya! :rolleyes:


That's... odd....

Sounds like an AT Field
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Levyathan on January 08, 2003, 08:21:27 pm
*reads thread title*
*wonders why he is here*

Oh! The Absolute Terror Field!
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: CP5670 on January 08, 2003, 08:30:51 pm
LOL that was really hilarious; is it the same thing as that "peace waves" nut about a year ago? Science has a place everywhere as long as things are absolute, but this is just funny; if they are really "completely holistic," it should be obvious that "terrorism" is as much a part of the workings of the universe as anything else. But anyway, let's all meditate and create big nasty peace waves to ward off all the violence! They will not stand a chance! ;7

Quote
There's a point where science gets silly. It's about the point where the nature of time is theorized on, basic mathematics becomes insanely complicated, and everything becomes essentially guesswork.


Of course, what "insanely complicated" is varies between people; one might as well say that it is insanely complicated to assume 1+1=2. :p The new science is all about big scary equations. ;7 :D
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Styxx on January 08, 2003, 08:39:58 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Levyathan
Oh! The Absolute Terror Field!


* hums Evangelion theme *
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: CP5670 on January 08, 2003, 08:44:03 pm
Quote
*reads thread title*
*wonders why he is here*


It's because everyone loves physics and math, right? ;7
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Levyathan on January 08, 2003, 08:54:16 pm
Obviously!
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Nico on January 09, 2003, 02:54:09 am
Quote
Originally posted by Kamikaze


That's... odd....

Sounds like an AT Field


hehehe
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Shrike on January 09, 2003, 03:24:54 am
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
* hums Evangelion theme *
*CAMs Eva*
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Styxx on January 09, 2003, 05:35:09 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
*CAMs Eva*


Bah.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Setekh on January 09, 2003, 06:38:48 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
*CAMs Eva*


*initiates Instrumentality and leaves Shrike behind*

Anyway, last I heard, there were 9 dimensions. What does this limit it to?
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: mikhael on January 09, 2003, 04:43:55 pm
This doesn't limit the number of possible dimensions, Steak. Other math does that.

If gravity is proved to be propogate at c, that means that it is explicitly not instantaneous. Brane-world theory suggests that some phenomena (like gravity) could take shortcuts through "rolled up" dimensions to get around the lightspeed limit. It also intimates, but doesn not outright state, that Einstein holds true for rolled up dimensions.

I'm curious as to whether the speed of gravity is constant (ie exactly c) or if it is merely approaches the limit with the interval determined other factors.

Also, a limit to the speed of gravitational propogation also may prevent Alcubierre's "warp drive" from being possible (of course, some of its other requirements may render that impossible before gravity even comes into play).

Quote
From Eishtmo:
You just found this out?

The experiment only confirmed what is generally excepted my most physists anyway, so it's nothing new.


The whole point of such experiments is to try to find circumstances where the theory breaks. "generally accepted" things MUST be tested, else you're not performing science, you're adhering to religion.

Venom, had  they shown a different result, I would not have laughed, I'd have wanted a deeper examination of the experiment, and repeats of the experiment. Finding a place where Einstein's theory breaks down would be the biggest news to date in the fields of cosmology and physics.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Thorn on January 10, 2003, 12:15:56 pm
Maybe the speed of gravity is based on the mass of the object?
I dunno.. I slept through most of my phisics classes, so I really have no idea what the hell I'm talking about..
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: vyper on January 10, 2003, 12:23:31 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh


*initiates Instrumentality and leaves Shrike behind*

Anyway, last I heard, there were 9 dimensions. What does this limit it to?


42? :D Joke.

I thot it was 11 or something like that.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: wEvil on January 10, 2003, 01:14:14 pm
26 "compressable" to 11 using supersymmetry.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: CP5670 on January 10, 2003, 01:18:49 pm
yeah, 26 was the number I heard before too. So is it really 26 or 11? (i.e. how many actual properties are needed to describe a quark/string?) I wish I knew more about this stuff...
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: wEvil on January 10, 2003, 02:20:40 pm
its generally accepted to be 11, because in the 26 dimensional model you need a number of totally different methods to come out with a hollistic idea, whereas in the 11-d method you wind up without all the "fiddly bits". dont ask me about the equations behind it - I don't have a sodding clue, i'm not into rows and rows of funny math symbols on blackboards.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: CODEDOG ND on January 10, 2003, 08:59:35 pm
nerds! nerds! nerds!
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: Grey Wolf on January 10, 2003, 09:13:11 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
* wonders about the effects of that on the next Honor Harrington book *

:D
You're right. There goes the grav sensors, the grav pulse communications, possibly the whole propulsion system.
Title: For the Physics Geeks
Post by: mikhael on January 10, 2003, 11:22:48 pm
Quote
Originally posted by wEvil
26 "compressable" to 11 using supersymmetry.


26, 14, 11, 10 or 12, depending on which version of A) string theory, B) brane-world theory and C) supersymmetric theory you personally seem to subscribe too. Switch up components and you end up with different numbers. Last I heard, the "accepted" number was 10 or 12, not 26 and 11.
Title: Mmm, physics...
Post by: diamondgeezer on January 10, 2003, 11:31:24 pm
Link the first (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2645691.stm)

Link the second (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2645611.stm)

Link the third (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2642065.stm)