Post by: Sandwich on January 13, 2003, 09:39:48 pm
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/fenris-internal-v0.1.gif)
And no, I'm not gonna use lvlshot tags for this. So there. :p
Post by: Knight Templar on January 13, 2003, 10:05:23 pm
That's like taller than Voyager, no?
Post by: Stryke 9 on January 13, 2003, 10:20:09 pm
That is cool proportionally, though.
Post by: Knight Templar on January 13, 2003, 10:48:25 pm
Post by: Ace on January 14, 2003, 12:07:11 am
Post by: Nico on January 14, 2003, 02:47:28 am
And what makes you think the decks goes from very left to very right of the ship? meh :p
anyway, once again my point is proven: the FS2 viewport FOV is completly wrong, who already pictures the Fenris being that big ingame, heh? Should look the size of the friggin colossus ingame right now :doubt:
Post by: kasperl on January 14, 2003, 04:37:50 am
Post by: Nico on January 14, 2003, 04:45:24 am
Post by: Kazashi on January 14, 2003, 06:34:51 am
How did you come to a deck height of 2.5m? It's certainly a valid height, but would marines in spacesuits have an easy time making their way through the ship?
Remember that a deceptive amount of space will be taken up by equipment. The weapons would take up a decent chunk of internal space - power needs to get to them somehow. Plus the afforementioned equipment, which will all need their own maintenance access. All things I'm sure are being taken into consideration.
Post by: Nico on January 14, 2003, 06:37:52 am
Post by: Shrike on January 14, 2003, 06:38:09 am
Post by: Sandwich on January 14, 2003, 08:33:56 am
Secondly, aside from a bit of space I allocated in the engine section, I haven't even touched on allocating space to the inner workings of beam turrets, missile storage areas, swimming pools - nothing, really. I just wated to get the very basic deck layout done in a very general way firt. I'll be sure to have plenty of sotrage room inside for everything and anything.
Quote
Originally posted by Kazashi
How did you come to a deck height of 2.5m? It's certainly a valid height, but would marines in spacesuits have an easy time making their way through the ship?
Thirdly, 2.5 meters is plenty of room. I'm a very tall person, and I'm only 1.94 or so. 2.5 meters is nearly 8 feet. Marines will only be in space suits in the area of the airlock(s), so I'll make sure there's plenty of headroom there. Bt in the FS1 hallfight sequence, they didn't look all that much taller, you know. I don't think it would be a problem at all.
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
reactors are already there, can't you see?
Reactors aren't there - that's just engineering section decks around the reactor space. But don't worry, I'll get there.
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
And what makes you think the decks goes from very left to very right of the ship? meh :p
Nothing at all. Again, this is a very basic layout, to which and from which I will be adding and subtracting. Any reasons you can give about anything concerning the internal layout will be quite welcome.
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
anyway, once again my point is proven: the FS2 viewport FOV is completly wrong, who already pictures the Fenris being that big ingame, heh? Should look the size of the friggin colossus ingame right now :doubt:
Hey, that was my point, too! The sense of scale in FS1 and 2 is completely off - just look at the troubles they are having in the Star Wars conversion forums on deciding how to address the issue. Remember, a Star Destroyer in 1.6 kilometers long, whereas an Orion is 2km - picture that in-game, and you can see how off the scale is in FS2.
I wonder if that's an issue that they SCP can address - it's solely a viewpoint focal length issue, I believe - should be a piece of cake.
Anyway, I'll post an update later on in the day.
Post by: heretic on January 14, 2003, 08:51:16 am
Post by: Nico on January 14, 2003, 08:59:58 am
***I mean the room for it is there.
Nothing at all. Again, this is a very basic layout, to which and from which I will be adding and subtracting. Any reasons you can give about anything concerning the internal layout will be quite welcome.
***I was defending you there :p. Well a good thing is to look at the maps. plus you can suppose beams and weapons aren't just little things stuck on the hull, they're big and deeply burried withing the structure I think ( a long cylinder, smething like that? )
Hey, that was my point, too! The sense of scale in FS1 and 2 is completely off - just look at the troubles they are having in the Star Wars conversion forums on deciding how to address the issue. Remember, a Star Destroyer in 1.6 kilometers long, whereas an Orion is 2km - picture that in-game, and you can see how off the scale is in FS2.
I wonder if that's an issue that they SCP can address - it's solely a viewpoint focal length issue, I believe - should be a piece of cake.
***I have asked for that already, but to no end. It was the request number two on my list, as number one ( glow maps ) has just been fulfilled, well, there's hope maybe :)
Post by: Sandwich on January 14, 2003, 11:51:32 am
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
I was defending you there :p. Well a good thing is to look at the maps. plus you can suppose beams and weapons aren't just little things stuck on the hull, they're big and deeply burried withing the structure I think ( a long cylinder, smething like that? )
Yes, of course - It's basically as if I had just made a cube, and now I needed to push and pull polygons to make it into an actual (non-Borg) ship. Same thing - I got the skeleton deck layout, now to trim away at all that needless extra recreation space those lazy ingrates called crewmen have. :p
Post by: beatspete on January 14, 2003, 12:49:46 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
I haven't even touched on allocating space to the inner workings of beam turrets, missile storage areas, swimming pools
:lol: You could fit a good 50m Olympic Swimming Pool in just the front section!
32 floors, thats quite a few. Suppose its about right, give or take a few. In light of this, i might have to re-think some crew size statistics. Going by that, i'd say about 100 for a cruiser. Though we still dont have an idea about the internals - it could have 10m thick armour, that would reduce the volume available quite a bit...
..then again, a fenris' armour is probably made of tin cans and some duct tape.
Post by: kasperl on January 14, 2003, 12:53:11 pm
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2003, 05:05:00 pm
One: Sandwich, that looks to me like you've got WAY too much room allocated to pressurised volume, and not enough allocated to ship structure, etc. That's a personal opinion, and one that I can't back up with any facts or whatever. I just expect the inside of a warship to be more cramped. Maybe that's my wet-navy experience coming out.
Two: I-War2 already allows for Focal Length and FOV adjustments by screwing with settings in the config file. With a bit of math, you can get those 5km long ships looking like 5km long ships. :D Shame FS2 can't do that (yet).
Post by: Sandwich on January 14, 2003, 05:16:31 pm
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
One: Sandwich, that looks to me like you've got WAY too much room allocated to pressurised volume, and not enough allocated to ship structure, etc. That's a personal opinion, and one that I can't back up with any facts or whatever. I just expect the inside of a warship to be more cramped. Maybe that's my wet-navy experience coming out.
*Ker-SMITE!*
Didn't know you were one of those people who read the first post and then reply to the whole topic, Mik. :p You see, had you read this:
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
I got the skeleton deck layout, now to trim away at all that needless extra recreation space those lazy ingrates called crewmen have. :p
...or this:
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Secondly, aside from a bit of space I allocated in the engine section, I haven't even touched on allocating space to the inner workings of beam turrets, missile storage areas, swimming pools - nothing, really. I just wated to get the very basic deck layout done in a very general way firt. I'll be sure to have plenty of sotrage room inside for everything and anything.
...
Again, this is a very basic layout, to which and from which I will be adding and subtracting. Any reasons you can give about anything concerning the internal layout will be quite welcome.
...you would know that I haven't even begun to allocate. :D
Post by: Sandwich on January 14, 2003, 05:26:38 pm
Post by: Nico on January 14, 2003, 05:41:11 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
*Ker-SMITE!*
Didn't know you were one of those people who read the first post and then reply to the whole topic, Mik. :p
usualy he does, I'm surprised and shocked :blah:
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2003, 06:13:44 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
*Ker-SMITE!*
Didn't know you were one of those people who read the first post and then reply to the whole topic, Mik. :p You see, had you read ...
...you would know that I haven't even begun to allocate. :D
Actually, I DID read the entire thread first, and was expressing my opinion on what was shown currently IN FULL AWARENESS that you hadn't gone back beyond the initial boxes drawn in Rhino.
Next time, I'll not bother to respond at all. *shrug*
Post by: Sandwich on January 14, 2003, 08:24:38 pm
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Actually, I DID read the entire thread first, and was expressing my opinion on what was shown currently IN FULL AWARENESS that you hadn't gone back beyond the initial boxes drawn in Rhino.
Ahh, I see. Well, the way you phrased it sounded simply like yet another "there's too much deck space!!" post, which is why I replied like I did. :p
*takes out de-smackage machine*
*aims at Mikhael and activates*
SCHLOOOMP!!
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Next time, I'll not bother to respond at all. *shrug*
Don't you dare... :p
Anyway, got an update. I've begun to flesh out the decks into the 3rd dimension. I haven't begun to remove deck space allocated for machinery yet, as I'd much rather allocate space in full 3D as opposed to allocating a whole section from port to starboard, if you get what I mean.
Oncee I flesh out all the decks, I'll begin equipping the ship with internal machinery by concentrating on the guts of things that are already partially outside the hull, such as turrets, engines, radar mast stuff, docking port airlocks, etc.
The image below is an animated GIF, with 3 frames, so wait for it - it's 177kb.
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/fenris-internal-v0.1.1.gif)
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2003, 08:59:27 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
...Oncee I flesh out all the decks, I'll begin equipping the ship with internal machinery by concentrating on the guts of things that are already partially outside the hull, such as turrets, engines, radar mast stuff, docking port airlocks, etc.
Quick lesson (from a sailor's point of view) in naval architecture (at least wet navy): Concentrate on the guts and the machinery and the turrets and engines and stuff. THEN, as an afterthought, design the decks and the stuff for human comfort. If you have room to move around, to stretch, to wave, to scratch your back, to turn over, etc, you've got too much damn space for the people.
Next time a US Carrier is anchored off the coast of Israel, take a tour. You'll see what I mean. Better yet, take a tour on a submarine. Boomer's are closer, engineering wise, to what you'd see in a Fenris/Leviathin.
Post by: Goober5000 on January 14, 2003, 09:09:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
*takes out de-smackage machine*
*aims at Mikhael and activates*
SCHLOOOMP!!
:lol:
Post by: Sandwich on January 14, 2003, 09:23:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Quick lesson (from a sailor's point of view) in naval architecture (at least wet navy): Concentrate on the guts and the machinery and the turrets and engines and stuff. THEN, as an afterthought, design the decks and the stuff for human comfort. If you have room to move around, to stretch, to wave, to scratch your back, to turn over, etc, you've got too much damn space for the people.
When you consider that the Fenris is 253m to the aircraft carrier Enterprise's 335m, and it's mass, due to it's vertical design, far greater than the carrier's mass, you ge tthe feeling that they won't be cramped for space on the Fenris - especially since they have no need for the first below-deck level to be dedicated to aircraft storage.
But you're right about the design priority, however, it isn't much different from what I'm already doing. I needed to get those decks in there to give myself a sense of scale, and it's much easier in Rhino to boolean subtract a big column of space for a 12-deck computer core than it is to design 12 decks with a hole through them.
Once I complete the decks, I'll start placing all the engine blocks and other equipment.
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Next time a US Carrier is anchored off the coast of Israel, take a tour. You'll see what I mean. Better yet, take a tour on a submarine. Boomer's are closer, engineering wise, to what you'd see in a Fenris/Leviathin.
Actually, I went to tour the USS Enterprise when she moored off Haifa port. :p She's big, and thinking back really give me a sense of the scale of the little ol' Fenris here. :)
Post by: Setekh on January 14, 2003, 09:27:21 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Anyway, got an update. I've begun to flesh out the decks into the 3rd dimension. I haven't begun to remove deck space allocated for machinery yet, as I'd much rather allocate space in full 3D as opposed to allocating a whole section from port to starboard, if you get what I mean.
Oncee I flesh out all the decks, I'll begin equipping the ship with internal machinery by concentrating on the guts of things that are already partially outside the hull, such as turrets, engines, radar mast stuff, docking port airlocks, etc.
The image below is an animated GIF, with 3 frames, so wait for it - it's 177kb.
That is really nice. :):yes: Maybe we could make a map for it later in our FPS of choice (Unreal 2?). :D
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2003, 09:35:27 pm
Your hull is going to be much thicker to start, with more armor. Holing a pressured volume is substantially worse than the holing a wet navy surface vessel. That armoring has to be accounted for somehow. With that in mind, you'll have multiple layers of hull (each armored as well), further restricting your internal volume. You'll want to space decks further apart with pressure locks (not necessarily dogged 24/7, but certainly during general quarters) in between. Again the focus is on the gear, structural requirements and battle damage control. If you're decks are thinner than your armor/pressure hulls, one holed deck will turn into multiple holed decks very quickly.
RE: Enterprise
Ain't she pretty? :) I pulled along side another ship of her class in San Diego. She was riding dry weight and I was aboard a single masted sailboat. The sheer presence of the carrier was overwhelming. They're stunning examples of engineering.
Post by: Shrike on January 14, 2003, 09:51:05 pm
Obviously you'd want enough armor to keep shrapnel from opening up every compartment in the ship, but a couple inches of steel (or equivalent) should do that reasonably well. If you try to armor every deck and every compartment you will quite soon find that your internal armor far exceeds your external armor. Spend too much on internal armor and you'll have to sacrifice external armor, meaning that shots that wouldn't normal penetrate and do any damage will instead inflict small but eventually significant damage.
Post by: Sandwich on January 14, 2003, 09:53:23 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh
That is really nice. :):yes: Maybe we could make a map for it later in our FPS of choice (Unreal 2?). :D
I wouldn't do it alone, mainly because I don't have an FPS of choice. :p But anyone's welcome to use it when I'm done. :nod:
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Your hull is going to be much thicker to start, with more armor. Holing a pressured volume is substantially worse than the holing a wet navy surface vessel. That armoring has to be accounted for somehow. With that in mind, you'll have multiple layers of hull (each armored as well), further restricting your internal volume. You'll want to space decks further apart with pressure locks (not necessarily dogged 24/7, but certainly during general quarters) in between. Again the focus is on the gear, structural requirements and battle damage control. If you're decks are thinner than your armor/pressure hulls, one holed deck will turn into multiple holed decks very quickly.
I've been trying to keep a bare minimum of 1 meter between open space and pressurized inside, so I think that should be close enough for rocket science.
And look in the first picture, towards the back, where the engine section joins the rest of the ship... see those little sections? Emergency bulkheads and airlocks, in case of catastrpohic engine faliure, the whole aft section can be isolated from the rest of the ship and detached via explosive bolts (Explosive Meson Bolts - EMS? :D) or something. :p
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
RE: Enterprise
Ain't she pretty? :) I pulled along side another ship of her class in San Diego. She was riding dry weight and I was aboard a single masted sailboat. The sheer presence of the carrier was overwhelming. They're stunning examples of engineering.
Well the closed-air, diesel-fumed ferry on the way over made everyone sick to their stomachs, but the open air USN skiff on the way back was much better, despite the fact that it rode the chop much closer than the big ferry had. :p So on the way back, yeah - Enterprise is a beaut. :nod:
Post by: Stryke 9 on January 14, 2003, 10:35:43 pm
Post by: Shrike on January 14, 2003, 10:46:10 pm
Post by: mikhael on January 14, 2003, 10:48:47 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
And look in the first picture, towards the back, where the engine section joins the rest of the ship... see those little sections? Emergency bulkheads and airlocks, in case of catastrpohic engine faliure, the whole aft section can be isolated from the rest of the ship and detached via explosive bolts (Explosive Meson Bolts - EMS? :D) or something. :p
You'll want pressure hatches about every 15 to 20 meters, Sandwich (basically about every other frame). During general quarters, all pressure hatches will be dogged tight (some will be dogged tight or dogged soft at all times). One hull breach shouldn't be able to void more than a few localized spaces.
Also, you'll need more than a simple 1m between decks because of air requirments. On a sealed air system (like any wet navy ship or space ship) you have to be able to partition your ventilation system at least as well as you do your pressure spaces. Further, you've got to pressure seal your power and water runs for the same reason AND you have to be able to partition them as well.
Shrike: you don't have to overarmor the internal spaces, but you do have to make sure that you're protected from secondary explosion type weapons. A wet navy ship has a hard enough time with such weapons. A void-navy is going to have more problems, because pressure loss is dangerous in more ways than mere waterloading--and far harder to control.
Post by: Shrike on January 14, 2003, 11:00:43 pm
Quote
Originally posted by mikhaelYou did specifically mention decks should not be thinner than pressure hulls/armor. I took that to mean you meant that internal armor should be as heavy as external armor.
Shrike: you don't have to overarmor the internal spaces, but you do have to make sure that you're protected from secondary explosion type weapons. A wet navy ship has a hard enough time with such weapons. A void-navy is going to have more problems, because pressure loss is dangerous in more ways than mere waterloading--and far harder to control.
Post by: Stryke 9 on January 14, 2003, 11:02:24 pm
Post by: Nico on January 15, 2003, 03:26:51 am
In OTT I decided to make up some fluff to explain why a 30 meters long antimatter bomb can't destroy a punny 2 km long ship, when it could most likely blast Jupiter and all the surrounding area to hell along with it in real life.
Really, too bad the debris maps are not specifically drawn, would be a good occasion to see inside the ship ( think Starship trooper when the Roger Young is cut in half ).
Post by: Black Wolf on January 15, 2003, 03:53:15 am
Hmmm - windows. They'd make a reasonably open, and obvious weak point on any armour...
Post by: Nico on January 15, 2003, 03:55:37 am
Quote
Originally posted by Black Wolf
Are you going to take into account the windows on the skin when you make this?
Hmmm - windows. They'd make a reasonably open, and obvious weak point on any armour...
they're probably 1 meter thick windows, and not glass anyway. maybe it's diamond windows :D
Post by: Styxx on January 15, 2003, 05:27:18 am
:p
Post by: Nico on January 15, 2003, 05:29:47 am
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
Pretty cool stuff up to now, but I wouldn't have my hopes up on a FPS level for something like this. Take the FS FPS project, for example, which is completely dead.
:p
btw, you see how huge a fenris would be a a FPS level? never wondered how ridiculous it was in dark Forces when you where in the SSD Excelssior at the end? and you could recognize the shap on the map :/ that SSD was smaller than a corellian corvette :p
Post by: mikhael on January 15, 2003, 06:04:46 am
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
they're probably 1 meter thick windows, and not glass anyway. maybe it's diamond windows :D
Diamond is a bad material for a window, if only because the lattice structure of the material does not stand up at all well to shearing stresses.
I think that the windows need to be disregarded--along with a lot of the tech descriptions.
Post by: Sandwich on January 15, 2003, 06:15:27 am
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
You'll want pressure hatches about every 15 to 20 meters, Sandwich (basically about every other frame). During general quarters, all pressure hatches will be dogged tight (some will be dogged tight or dogged soft at all times). One hull breach shouldn't be able to void more than a few localized spaces.
Roger that, although I think that most of those can be modeled inside any given corridor; I can't think of any reason why a simple pressure bulkhead would require a complete interruption of an internal ship's corridor.
Speaking of ship corridors, has anyone seen the RUN-16S.EXE movie that comes with the SOTY edition? You know, the one with that marine running through a GTVA (GTA?) ship corridor, Prometheus Handheld Edition strapped to his arm? It gives a very nice comprehensive glimpse at the interior of a ship. The corridor looks to be no more than 2.5 meters in height, but it's not square - it's a squashed hexagon, like the Krell designs in Forbidden Planet. I think I'll have to remake everything... again. :rolleyes: Oh well.Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Also, you'll need more than a simple 1m between decks because of air requirments. On a sealed air system (like any wet navy ship or space ship) you have to be able to partition your ventilation system at least as well as you do your pressure spaces. Further, you've got to pressure seal your power and water runs for the same reason AND you have to be able to partition them as well.
Hmm... mind explaining further? I tend to be able to design things best when I have a comprehensive grasp of what they are supposed to do. :p
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Shrike: you don't have to overarmor the internal spaces, but you do have to make sure that you're protected from secondary explosion type weapons. A wet navy ship has a hard enough time with such weapons. A void-navy is going to have more problems, because pressure loss is dangerous in more ways than mere waterloading--and far harder to control.
Secondary explosions that could occur on board a standard FS2 Fenris include: reactor fuel (whatever it is, it must be dangerous), the ventral rocket launcher's rocket storage racks, and the beam weapons' plasma ("Commence plasma core insertion."). Did I miss anything?
Quote
Originally posted by StrykeIX
See, this is why I always wanted to see an ingame missile with a mining drill warhead. Sure, fine, heavy armor will stop most things from getting in. But what are you gonna do once it DOES get in? I think some antitank missiles work on the same premise, boring into the armor and then blasting the inside.
Oh, you mean that 007 torpedo/drill in Tommorow Never Dies? :D
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
Btw, FS2 armors must be pretty thick... Have you noticed what we 're thrwoing at them? Of course the Fenris is the weakest warship of the series, but just take the orion, ok, it's not a fenris, it's a destroyer, it's big , blablabla. Throw one of those antimater ( ANTIMATER FOR PETE'S SAKE!!!! ) bombs to it. The thing barely suffered. There must be more to it than special alloys...
In OTT I decided to make up some fluff to explain why a 30 meters long antimatter bomb can't destroy a punny 2 km long ship, when it could most likely blast Jupiter and all the surrounding area to hell along with it in real life.
Really, too bad the debris maps are not specifically drawn, would be a good occasion to see inside the ship ( think Starship trooper when the Roger Young is cut in half ).
Well, first of all, concerning the antimatter bomb, we have no idea how much of that bomb is just magnetic containment field generators, power cells and generators, backup systems, engine, etc. If you were talking about a fusion bomb, then yeah, we can compare it to the size of bombs today and say, "Whoa, that's one huge bomb!" But with antimatter we don't have an established base size for all the support equipment, so for all we know there might only be room for a teaspoon of antimatter in the Helios. We just can't know.
But regardless, I agree - there is something beyond collapsed mollybendum plating to those hulls - perhaps a variant on the ST: Enterprise's polarized hull plating - we saw that the Brits developed electrified armor a few months ago, after all.
Quote
Originally posted by Black Wolf
Are you going to take into account the windows on the skin when you make this?
Funny you should mention that, actually. The windows on the skin were the second thing I used to get a sense of scale, with the first being scaling the ship model up to 253 meters length in Rhino.
So yeah, notice how far down the windows go along the lower pylon (5 decks below the connection point or so), as well as the big-windowed corridor along the bottom of Engineering. I took both those into account, as well as the other areas with windows, of course.Quote
Originally posted by Black Wolf
Hmmm - windows. They'd make a reasonably open, and obvious weak point on any armour...
You know those huge bulldozers the IDF has - 2 stories tall or so, and they always get shown demolishing terrorist houses or Arafat compounds? Well, as a branch of Combat Engineering (which I was), those dozers were stationed at my base. Their armour, while quite thick (MBT-grade) is actually not as strong as the ~12" thick glass windows they had. :D
Post by: Nico on January 15, 2003, 06:22:00 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Well, first of all, concerning the antimatter bomb, we have no idea how much of that bomb is just magnetic containment field generators, power cells and generators, backup systems, engine, etc. If you were talking about a fusion bomb, then yeah, we can compare it to the size of bombs today and say, "Whoa, that's one huge bomb!" But with antimatter we don't have an established base size for all the support equipment, so for all we know there might only be room for a teaspoon of antimatter in the Helios. We just can't know.
well, a teaspoon amount of antimatter is way enough to vaporize something much bigger than a sathanas, as far as I know...
and in FS1 the basic bombs are atomic bombs... you see where i'm going?
the FS ships are tough, much tougher than you could think at first glimpse...
Post by: mikhael on January 15, 2003, 06:39:31 am
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
well, a teaspoon amount of antimatter is way enough to vaporize something much bigger than a sathanas, as far as I know...
Actually, do a search of the forums, Venom. Shrike and I both sat down and worked out the energy release for a gram of iron annihilating with a gram of antiiron. It might be in the I-War fora. The results were in the kilotons, not the megatons. Even your weaker FS atomics will produce more "boom".
Post by: Sandwich on January 15, 2003, 06:54:12 am
[q]
[14:37.35 PM] Mikhael: I can't think of any reason why a simple pressure bulkhead would require a complete interruption of an internal ship's corridor.
[14:37.52 PM] Mikhael: um, that's like the very definition of a pressure bulkhead. ;)
[14:38.09 PM] Mikhael: Its gotta interrupt the corridor AND the spaces beyond the corridor.
[14:38.27 PM] Sandwich: I didn't mean from an engineering standpoint, I meant from a modellers standpoint
[14:38.37 PM] Sandwich: Ahh...
[14:38.40 PM] Sandwich: hmm
[14:38.42 PM] Sandwich: true
[14:39.28 PM] Sandwich: well, with the soon-to-be-revamped squished hexagon corridors, I think I can have all the needed ducts and stuff wedged in the angles, no?
[14:42.57 PM] Mikhael: Possibly, if you're filling in the angles--which your picture doesn't show.
[14:43.38 PM] Mikhael: that IS a nicely formatted post though. ;)
[14:44.27 PM] Sandwich: heheh
[14:44.39 PM] Mikhael: now:
[14:44.43 PM] Sandwich: and I didn't design those decks to be angular.... I'll have to redo them.
[14:45.02 PM] Mikhael: first segmented ventilation is the same as segmented pressure spaces and segmented passageways.
[14:45.23 PM] Mikhael: Its no good to pressure seal a room if the VENTILATION isn't likewise sealed off.
[14:45.39 PM] Mikhael: afterall, your escaping pressure would just go out thru the ventilation system.
[14:46.17 PM] Sandwich: right, but who's to say that there aren't seperate pressure seals insode the air ducts alone?
[14:46.36 PM] Mikhael: Exactly. That takes up a lot of room.
[14:46.53 PM] Mikhael: for secondary explosions, I'm talking about things like armor-piercing ordinance. The type of stuff that holes a ship, THEN detonates a serious charge, like an Exocet (I think)
[14:47.42 PM] Sandwich: yeah, but thankfully that doesn't exist in FS
[14:47.46 PM] Sandwich: :p
[14:48.13 PM] Mikhael: FS engineers just kinda forgot 200yrs of wet navy lessons? ;)
[14:48.29 PM] Sandwich: No, Volition people did. :p
[14:49.34 PM] Mikhael: right. Don't think like a game designer (who are, afterall, the people who make a 14m fighter, then list its size as 28m)
[14:49.53 PM] Mikhael: If you're going to make a serious effort of it, think like a naval engineer.
[14:49.56 PM] Sandwich: hehehe
[14:50.31 PM] Sandwich: Well, that's what you're around for, right? I mean, I may have been a combat engineer in my military service, but we don't build, we blow up. :D
[/q]
Post by: Setekh on January 15, 2003, 07:00:12 am
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Originally posted by Sandwich
I wouldn't do it alone, mainly because I don't have an FPS of choice. :p But anyone's welcome to use it when I'm done. :nod:
Renegade? :) We'd only need to have a single deck, obviously, or two half-decks - there are quite a number of multi-level maps in UT, for instance, at the moment which are much larger than 150m from end to end. Anyway, it's a distant possibility at the moment, and off the topic for now. ;)
(In reply to that ICQ log) Well, it's good we have you around then, isn't it Mik? :nod:
Post by: Nico on January 15, 2003, 07:00:37 am
Post by: Stryke 9 on January 15, 2003, 08:11:30 am
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Oh, you mean that 007 torpedo/drill in Tommorow Never Dies?
Oh, shut up. I thought of that two full years before that movie came out, and they screwed it up, anyway.:p
Post by: Nico on January 15, 2003, 08:13:50 am
Post by: Sandwich on January 15, 2003, 08:31:14 am
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Originally posted by Setekh
Renegade? :) We'd only need to have a single deck, obviously, or two half-decks - there are quite a number of multi-level maps in UT, for instance, at the moment which are much larger than 150m from end to end. Anyway, it's a distant possibility at the moment, and off the topic for now. ;)
Nahh, I was thinking more along the lines of Serious Sam - the engine could do Shivans just fine. :D
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Originally posted by venom2506
btw, there's that high poly fenris some dude posted a few weeks ago, maybe you shou:ld try and get the mesh from him?
Bah - I have a feeling that the internal section will become high-poly enough without my adding a high poly exterior to it. :p But post a link or a pic, will ya? I think I missed that one.
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Originally posted by StrykeIX
Oh, shut up. I thought of that two full years before that movie came out, and they screwed it up, anyway.:p
Nice pun. :p
Post by: Shrike on January 15, 2003, 08:51:04 am
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Originally posted by mikhaelOne kilogram of AM fully annhilating one KG of normal matter releases 42.7 MT of energy, if memory serves.
Actually, do a search of the forums, Venom. Shrike and I both sat down and worked out the energy release for a gram of iron annihilating with a gram of antiiron. It might be in the I-War fora. The results were in the kilotons, not the megatons. Even your weaker FS atomics will produce more "boom".
Post by: Nico on January 15, 2003, 10:17:47 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Bah - I have a feeling that the internal section will become high-poly enough without my adding a high poly exterior to it. :p But post a link or a pic, will ya? I think I missed that one.
don't remember what thread it was, but the thing looked awesome, pretty much finished as well, tho not mapped.
Post by: NegspectahDek on January 15, 2003, 10:52:21 am
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Originally posted by Shrike
One kilogram of AM fully annhilating one KG of normal matter releases 42.7 MT of energy, if memory serves.
Post by: Shrike on January 15, 2003, 11:17:07 am
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Originally posted by NegspectahDek*smirks*
Now i know that isn't right. A regular modern day fission bomb can release about that much energy and only a small fraction of the mass is converted to energy. As soon as I find some, proof is forthcoming
Bring it. ;7
Post by: Sandwich on January 15, 2003, 12:57:40 pm
Post by: kasperl on January 15, 2003, 01:09:34 pm
Post by: StratComm on January 15, 2003, 02:37:17 pm
Post by: Sandwich on January 15, 2003, 03:55:50 pm
I've spent the day modifying the deck layout as follows:
- No open internal space is within 2 meters of the outside of the hull, to give plenty of room to armor.
- Most decks have 1.5 meters between them.
- The decks line up more completely with the external windows on the textures, with a few exceptions.
I also modeled a bit of internal corridor based on that movie I mentioned earlier. Here's the reference pics:
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/movie_corridor_1.jpg)
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/movie_corridor_2.jpg)
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/movie_corridor_3.jpg)
And here's the thing I whipped together:
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/corridor_0.1.jpg)
Obviously not complete by any means, but I'm not going to work on it any more at the moment.
Post by: Goober5000 on January 15, 2003, 04:08:25 pm
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Ok, back on topic... *ahem* :rolleyes:
:lol: Poor Sandwich - everyone's derailing his thread. :lol:
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...
Nice work. :yes:
Post by: Stryke 9 on January 15, 2003, 04:17:46 pm
Post by: Shrike on January 15, 2003, 04:29:06 pm
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Originally posted by StratComm..........
For explosive scale, if a dollar bill were to anhilate itself with an equal amount of anti-matter, the resulting release of energy would be more than capable of incinerating the entire earth.
Good grief, hasn't anyone ever taken physics? People seem to WAY overestimate how powerful antimatter is.
A proton has an atomic weight of 928.2723 MeV. There's 6.02E23 protons in one gram of hydrogen. An Electron Volt (eV) is 1.6022E-19 Joules.
Everyone can do the math themselves. It's a lot of bang per unit mass, but not the world-destroying yield some people believe.
Post by: Mr Carrot on January 15, 2003, 04:30:02 pm
Post by: karajorma on January 15, 2003, 06:05:55 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
..........
Good grief, hasn't anyone ever taken physics? People seem to WAY overestimate how powerful antimatter is.
A proton has an atomic weight of 928.2723 MeV. There's 6.02E23 protons in one gram of hydrogen. An Electron Volt (eV) is 1.6022E-19 Joules.
Everyone can do the math themselves. It's a lot of bang per unit mass, but not the world-destroying yield some people believe.
Sorry to further derail the subject Sandwich but it's even easier than that.
E=MC^2 goes on mass. You only need avagadro's number and the weight of a proton etc to calulate the energy release per atom. Since we are talking about kilogram weights we can dispense with that and plug the numbers straight into the equation.
The yield of 2kg matter/antimatter weapon would be 1.8x10^17 Joules which works out as around 43 Megatons (roughly equivalent to a modern day H-Bomb).
That's for a bomb weighing as much as big bag of sugar in your kitchen. Obviously a dollar bills worth would be much less destructive.
Anyway now it's time to go back to discussing Sandwich's lovely cruiser model :)
I love the corridor but what are the handle things on the sides for? Are they simply handles for zero G manouvers or are the handles for lockers. I gotta know :)
Post by: Goober5000 on January 15, 2003, 06:09:54 pm
Post by: Ace on January 15, 2003, 06:31:52 pm
Post by: Nuclear1 on January 15, 2003, 08:16:48 pm
Highly useful for the scriptwriters.... :devil:
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on January 16, 2003, 01:19:24 pm
Post by: Shrike on January 16, 2003, 03:57:07 pm
Quote
Originally posted by karajormaYeah, it's easier to do E=MC^2, but using my method you can also figure out the effective yield from a given mass of any other reactant as well, such as deuterium-deuterium fusion, etc.
Sorry to further derail the subject Sandwich but it's even easier than that.
E=MC^2 goes on mass. You only need avagadro's number and the weight of a proton etc to calulate the energy release per atom. Since we are talking about kilogram weights we can dispense with that and plug the numbers straight into the equation.
The yield of 2kg matter/antimatter weapon would be 1.8x10^17 Joules which works out as around 43 Megatons (roughly equivalent to a modern day H-Bomb).
Anyhow, 43 megatons is NOT equivalent to a modern-day thermonuclear weapon. The largest nuke ever lit off was 56 MT, most (maybe even all) nuclear weapons produced since the 70s have been in the kilotons. It's in the same range, but still packs far more punch that any production weapon - the largest of which I believe were 9 MT.
Post by: Sandwich on January 16, 2003, 06:47:53 pm
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
I love the corridor but what are the handle things on the sides for? Are they simply handles for zero G manouvers or are the handles for lockers. I gotta know :)
Actually, I'm not sure. I originally got the idea from the second movie screenshot in my post; if you look immediately to the right of the guy's belt, you'll see what looks like a flattened handle in the bulkhead. I tried to model it as a handle, but since I had originally started working with the base units as meters (for the Fenris model), modelling something at the millimeter level was highly unsuccessful - I guess Rhino has issues with teeny-tiny polygons that do not align directly with any of the 3 axes.
So anyway, I decided heck with the flattened thing, I'll make 'em basic handles. :nod: Modelling the rest of that corridor will be fun (actually it's just modelling a single support arch, like I've done, as well as the wall sections between the arches, and then copy-pasting like mad). I'd _love_ to eventually see this as a Serious Sam level!
If anyone wants to take a shot at making basic textures of anything internal - floors, walls, signs, etc - I'd be much obliged. I can't create textures to save my life! :doubt:
Post by: Nico on January 17, 2003, 02:43:15 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Actually, I'm not sure. I originally got the idea from the second movie screenshot in my post; if you look immediately to the right of the guy's belt, you'll see what looks like a flattened handle in the bulkhead.
mmh, unless we're not talking about the same thing, I think your flatened handle is the end of some kind of that groovy tube that you can see better on the other pics.
Post by: Sandwich on January 17, 2003, 05:01:39 am
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
mmh, unless we're not talking about the same thing, I think your flatened handle is the end of some kind of that groovy tube that you can see better on the other pics.
That yellow tube? Nope, I'm not quite that blind. :p Here's what I meant.
Post by: karajorma on January 17, 2003, 05:23:28 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Yeah, it's easier to do E=MC^2, but using my method you can also figure out the effective yield from a given mass of any other reactant as well, such as deuterium-deuterium fusion, etc.
Anyhow, 43 megatons is NOT equivalent to a modern-day thermonuclear weapon. The largest nuke ever lit off was 56 MT, most (maybe even all) nuclear weapons produced since the 70s have been in the kilotons. It's in the same range, but still packs far more punch that any production weapon - the largest of which I believe were 9 MT.
Well we are dealing mostly with non-scientists here so it's better to give the simplest solution :)
When I said Modern H-Bomb I meant what we can build now rather than what is normally used in the military (From what I could find on the net at the time the largest nuke in still in use in the US is around 1.8 megatons but most of the weapons in use are measured in kilotons). I think the largest H-bombs have a yield of twice that of my 2kg antimatter bomb.
Post by: Nico on January 17, 2003, 05:27:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
That yellow tube? Nope, I'm not quite that blind. :p Here's what I meant.
no, not that one, a very big horizontal one with dark copper-like colours, and a glowy bit coming out of it. it has a sort of half circlet at its end. there's a blue and yellow panel on that tube, too
Post by: Sandwich on January 17, 2003, 05:34:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
no, not that one, a very big horizontal one with dark copper-like colours, and a glowy bit coming out of it. it has a sort of half circlet at its end. there's a blue and yellow panel on that tube, too
Ok, fine, I see the one, but I don't see how you thought that what I ended up circling in the attachment was somehow the end of that tube.
Whatevers - completely unimportant.
*flames venom when everyone loses attention and turns away*
Post by: Nico on January 17, 2003, 06:17:39 am
Post by: Sandwich on January 17, 2003, 07:45:32 am
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
look again. for exemple, on the side shot, behind the running guy, the end of the tube that is behind him, there's a big metalic part that cuoold look like that handle. bah, never mind. I can't see the handle you're talking about anyway.
It doesn't look like a handle actually, it was just that the first glance at it said "handle" in my mind, and so I thought, "why not?", and made some. So there. :ha:
Post by: Nico on January 17, 2003, 07:53:54 am
Post by: GrandAdmiralAbaht on January 22, 2003, 06:00:08 pm
Post by: LtNarol on January 22, 2003, 06:12:20 pm
Post by: Sandwich on January 22, 2003, 06:53:00 pm
The community at http://forums.seriouscommunity.com/ is very helpful, but I'll need help from you guys as well. But that's for the future - I ain't gonna start anything until after I geet back from reserves (~Feb 27th).
But think about the possibilities: Serious Engine supports multiple gravity fields; define a 1G field at knee-height above any given flat surface inside a ship, with everything else at zero G, and walla! You have a situation that duplicates the effect of marines in a zero-G environment wearing magnetic boots!
That's just one of the possibilities that's hit me while playing Serious Sam. I'm thinking SAR missions for downed pilots behind enemy lines, ship boarding (hallfight), repelling boarders, heck - even going EV as a tech or something to repair something on the outside of an orion's hull - walking along the hull (Ooh - the hi-poly Orion!!). ;7 ;7 ;7
Post by: Setekh on January 23, 2003, 05:20:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
But think about the possibilities: Serious Engine supports multiple gravity fields; define a 1G field at knee-height above any given flat surface inside a ship, with everything else at zero G, and walla! You have a situation that duplicates the effect of marines in a zero-G environment wearing magnetic boots!
Hey, that's great thinking! I remember playing the SS demo and running up that wall, it was a good surprise. ;) The Serious Engine is amazingly capable, especially the enormous maps. :nod:
Post by: Nico on January 23, 2003, 01:13:25 pm
Post by: Sandwich on January 23, 2003, 05:20:17 pm
Quote
Originally posted by venom2506
hem, and if by some bad luck you end up still in the 0 G zone, I hope you can "swim" back to the ground?
Oh, yes, it allows you to maneuver in zero G in the same nonsensical manner as maneuvering in mid-jump in a FPS.
Most of the modelling for Serious Sam is done via Lightwave, although MAX is supported as well. I'm not sure why exactly one is better to use than the other, but whatever.
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on January 26, 2003, 08:15:32 am
(http://www.freewebs.com/petrarch_of_th_vbb/Shot00001.txt)
Post by: kasperl on January 26, 2003, 08:18:17 am
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on January 26, 2003, 08:19:50 am
Post by: kasperl on January 26, 2003, 08:21:02 am
Post by: Anaz on January 26, 2003, 08:37:48 am
nicccee...one more reason for me to get UT2K3....
Post by: Ace on January 26, 2003, 01:25:39 pm
Yeah, add in the support bars, lights, etc. as seen in the hallway shots Sandwich has shown.
Post by: Sandwich on January 26, 2003, 01:50:48 pm
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on January 29, 2003, 02:18:52 pm
Post by: deep_eyes on January 30, 2003, 09:47:01 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
*takes out de-smackage machine*
*aims at Mikhael and activates*
SCHLOOOMP!!
:lol:
we got a new tag!