Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Unknown Target on January 14, 2003, 10:11:24 am
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Well, what's happening to Freespace?
Personally, the game is almost done for me, as the gameplay is getting quite musty, and I've finally found a worthy game as a successor (Hegemonia: //www.hegemonia.info).
Anyways, I look at Freespace now as a sort of legend to me.
It truly has changed my life, although, in many ways, not for the better, as I spend more time on the PC now than I rightfully should :D.
However, I look around and I see all this campaigns starting up, and the SCP making great headway, but I'm forced to ask the eternal question:
"How long will it last?"
HLP is a great community, it really is, but it's flaw, if it had to have one, is that it's based and centered around a 4-year-old game that's getting even older by the second.
There are, of course, the huge new campaigns, like Black Water Ops coming out, but it's appeal would be reletavely tiny, as it would be limited to the remaining audience of the Freespace game series.
Now, one of two things could happen:
1)We could let Freespace slide. It eventually might get old enough so that Thunder, Shrike, and the rest of them, simply don't have the time to manage this site anymore, and it would shut down. That would be the true death toll for the Freespace community, as volitionwatch could not possibly handle everything and stay current enough. Freespace woud die a slow, torturous death.
2)There could somehow be a Freespace 3. The SCP could better it's material, and the entire community could pitch in to buy the now dirt-cheap Freespace liscence from the crumbling Interplay. That would be quite a good idea, as how much each person donated could be recoreded, and he would be repaid by sales, and mabey even extra.
So, what are your thoughts?
Note: this is not a "Goodbye, I'm leaving" thing. This is just me posing a viable question.
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i think buying the rights from interplay is good idea, but i think not only the scp should be given them, they should also be given to :V:, so they can make FS3. however, the scp should get the source for FS3 from :V:. and i'd love topitch in for the license,
BUT i can't give much and i want to be absoluteley sure that the money goes to the license.
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Just out of interest, how much would you pay for the license?
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It depends on how much the liscense costs.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
2)There could somehow be a Freespace 3. The SCP could better it's material, and the entire community could pitch in to buy the now dirt-cheap Freespace liscence from the crumbling Interplay. That would be quite a good idea, as how much each person donated could be recoreded, and he would be repaid by sales, and mabey even extra.
Not a bad idea. Like how much could it be. I don't think it would be over 200 or 300 bucks. 400, max but I think they will never sell it. They are most probably gonna take it to their grave with them.
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Make a game. Sell the game to some publisher. Buy FS rights. Trade Volition the rights in exchange for free-reign with the FS universe and access to everything they've got on FS (eg. cutscene models, concepts, unfinished ships, un-used missions and scripts etc etc).
Basically, give Volition the rights in exchange for everything from FS1 and FS2 that we've never managed to get ahold of and access to everything they cook up for FS3.
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sounds good, but making a game is a lot of work and is not going to happen. i would just like to now one thing: how much cash are we talking about? if someone could even give me an idea, like how mamny digits are we talking about? like $1000, $10.000 or $100.000 or more?
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Try to find DaveB over at VWBB: http://www.volitionwatch.com/vwbb
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well first of all, you guys are forgetting something... you seem to think that as soon as volition gets the rights they'll jump in quick and make FS3...
they won't do that, no time soon anyway! why would they do that when they've got Summoner and Redfaction that broke records and are still pulling in money.
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Because it's frees[pace and if they play their cards right, they'll pull in more than both together.
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what about this:
once we've got the rights, we make up somekind legal thing, that says the following:
the HLP gives the rights on freespace to volition on the following conditions:
1. volition relaeses all artwork, unpublished missions and that stuff into the community
2. volition makes FS3 within x months (where x is some kind of reasonable number)
3. voltion will realese the source of fs3 after x years from publishing the game
4. the community is being mentioned in the credits of FS3
(5.) the SCPprogrammers will help with FS3 (if they want to)
and if :V: doesn't do as we like, we can simply terminate the agreement and get the rights back to us so we can relaese FS3
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This is one of the most inane threads I've read in a long time. :wtf:
First off - game rights are going to cost a lot more than a few hundred dollars, no matter how old the game is. At the very least, you'd be looking in the tens of thousands. Remember, the rights al;low someone to commercially produce a game, or film , or book or whatever, potentially making them thousands of dollars. You don't sell something like that for less than a figure relative to what the buyer will make.
Secondly, even if by some freak of nature (or extremely philanthropic communtiy member) you actually managed to obtain the rights, attempting to dictate terms to [V] about their use would probably be next to pointless. Even if [V] bought the rights themselves, they might not jump straight into a game - how high a priority would they put on it if they not only had to pay a bunch of random net users a royalty (to whom precisey this would go would be another issue to resolve), but also had to agree to a set of terms, and even let relative amateurs take on the highly sought after jobs of professional programmers?
And finally, "and if :V: doesn't do as we like, we can simply terminate the agreement and get the rights back to us so we can relaese FS3"...precisely howwere you planning to make FS3? And if you say the SCP I'll headbut you. Take a look at sparky.vp, warble.vp, etc. etc. After the SCP hgad somehow produced a new engine, we'd have to do all that and much more, as an unpaid group of amateurs.
Sorry sirs, but you're dreaming.
All that said, on the initial topic of the thread I think FS2 has at least another year or two in it, simply because it's so easy to mod, and because of the SCP. FS2, given the rate that it's being upgraded ATM, should easily be able to hold its own with modern games very soon, plus the quality of campaigns is increasing with each passing day. You're not taking into account the interest generated by thingslike TBP, which draws dozens of B5 fans in all on its own. The only real difficulty with sustaining the comunity much beyond that is the finite limit on the number of copies of FS2 that exist - it's practically impossible to buy new these days, and even if you did buy it new, or hell, even secondhand, the community links it provides (to the VBB) are useless.
Basically, IMO, the FS2 community will survive only until people complete the current major projects, and then the vets will lose interest, the newbies will come in too slowly, the forums will slow down, and eventually cease to twitch. It's the only way out, from here on in :(. Unless some developer pulls a Half Life (Buying a copy of the Quake engiune and massively upgrading it), all we can hope for is a final, crowning fan effort, where the best of the best unite to actually produce something akin to all the 'teh bestest campaign eva!' before we all go the way of the dodo. In short, we have PS to look forward to, which means it won't be so bad :D.
Forgive me my ramblings - it's late :)
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1. volition relaeses all artwork, unpublished missions and that stuff into the community
:wtf:
2. volition makes FS3 within x months (where x is some kind of reasonable number)
:no: :lol: :no:
and if :V: doesn't do as we like, we can simply terminate the agreement and get the rights back to us so we can relaese FS3
:no: :doubt: :no:
Originally posted by Black Wolf
This is one of the most inane threads I've read in a long time. :wtf:
:yes:
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ok,some of my idea's might be a bit, overexagurated, but i still think that :V: would be happy with free rights for a game like FS, and if you look, point 5 is between brackets, so it's optional. and i know trieing to realease the game ourselfs would be almost impossible,but we could try to sell the rights to some other company. so if :V: hears about that, they'll finally get interested.
and what's wrong aout point 1? it's a good traid, game rights in traid of some stuff laying on a shelf catching dust.
point 2 seams valid as well, cause that way we will force :V: to begin production of FS3 with a reasonable amount of people.
and i wouldn't expect :V: to do anything for the people who buy the rights, just they'remoeny back after the game is realesed and a little free copy of FS3 if they payed over,let's say $50.
in some other thread about this most people where in favor of this plan, so i think we've got a reasonally good change of succeeding
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
This is one of the most inane threads I've read in a long time. :wtf:
First off - game rights are going to cost a lot more than a few hundred dollars, no matter how old the game is. At the very least, you'd be looking in the tens of thousands. Remember, the rights al;low someone to commercially produce a game, or film , or book or whatever, potentially making them thousands of dollars. You don't sell something like that for less than a figure relative to what the buyer will make.
Secondly, even if by some freak of nature (or extremely philanthropic communtiy member) you actually managed to obtain the rights, attempting to dictate terms to [V] about their use would probably be next to pointless. Even if [V] bought the rights themselves, they might not jump straight into a game - how high a priority would they put on it if they not only had to pay a bunch of random net users a royalty (to whom precisey this would go would be another issue to resolve), but also had to agree to a set of terms, and even let relative amateurs take on the highly sought after jobs of professional programmers?
And finally, "and if :V: doesn't do as we like, we can simply terminate the agreement and get the rights back to us so we can relaese FS3"...precisely howwere you planning to make FS3? And if you say the SCP I'll headbut you. Take a look at sparky.vp, warble.vp, etc. etc. After the SCP hgad somehow produced a new engine, we'd have to do all that and much more, as an unpaid group of amateurs.
Sorry sirs, but you're dreaming.
All that said, on the initial topic of the thread I think FS2 has at least another year or two in it, simply because it's so easy to mod, and because of the SCP. FS2, given the rate that it's being upgraded ATM, should easily be able to hold its own with modern games very soon, plus the quality of campaigns is increasing with each passing day. You're not taking into account the interest generated by thingslike TBP, which draws dozens of B5 fans in all on its own. The only real difficulty with sustaining the comunity much beyond that is the finite limit on the number of copies of FS2 that exist - it's practically impossible to buy new these days, and even if you did buy it new, or hell, even secondhand, the community links it provides (to the VBB) are useless.
Basically, IMO, the FS2 community will survive only until people complete the current major projects, and then the vets will lose interest, the newbies will come in too slowly, the forums will slow down, and eventually cease to twitch. It's the only way out, from here on in :(. Unless some developer pulls a Half Life (Buying a copy of the Quake engiune and massively upgrading it), all we can hope for is a final, crowning fan effort, where the best of the best unite to actually produce something akin to all the 'teh bestest campaign eva!' before we all go the way of the dodo. In short, we have PS to look forward to, which means it won't be so bad :D.
Forgive me my ramblings - it's late :)
right ,exactly.. there's no way that we'll ever get the rights, so why even dream.
i was saying that EVEN IF VOLITION DID get the rights, they wouldn't make the game... why would they... they saw what happened with FS2!
they've got many more important projects ahead of them i'm sure!
but i don't think the game rights would be that much (i hope)... probably no more than $15,000, for a game that hardly broke even
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...and who exactly is going to decided all this, who is going to do the administration for buying, selling the rights, and handling all the money. Bad idea. Sorry. :blah:
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Ummm...boy, you guys took the last idea in my post and ran with it. This wasn't really emphasizing buying the liscence, because it would cost OBSCENE amounts of money, even for an old liscence like FS.
BTW, dictating terms to the developer? I know you're sorta new, and I can give you leeway in that respect, but I doubt that's feasible, if even the right thing to do.
EDIT: I'd happily divert most of my time to developing the next installment in the FS saga, but I'd have to see an actual USE for my time.
How about this: Interplay chugs, and we release the game over the internet, called something else. People can download and play it for 20 bucks, sorta like Combat Mission.
Just a thought, and it's about as inane as the rest in here, but, what the hell. Everyone would benefit. We could post a "secret" thing in the game, where it tells about the game's true origins and such.
Or, we could just watch this die, and lazilly sit back and watch the latest campaign come out, gradually becoming more and more tired of the same "rotate your ship and fire" gameplay.
I know that's what I'm doing right now, and I hate doing nothing while seeing something good pass away.
DOUBLE EDIT: You see that line in my siggy? The Robotech mod right now is all but dead. Because of the fact that I'm unable to texture properly, and get bored of simply re-naming models, I've even stopped working on the project. If you knew me, you'd be stunned. I've been a Robotech fan all my life, and nearly sh*tted myself when I got accepted into the team.
But I'm a future thinker. I look at this mod and think to myself:
"It won't matter, only the die-hards will even remember it, unless we get some new blood in the Freespace community. Why bother?"
I ask you, then: Why bother with all the campaigns? Why bother with this board? Why bother even posting this message? Why? Because we love to. This game is one of the greatest ever made, that's why. Because this game, this community is something totally unique. Others may claim that, but this place and the game it's based on are truly gems in a sea of rocks.
Fine, let it die if you want to. Just let the ones who want to save it, try.
TRIPLE EDIT: Just found out on the private forums: The Robotech mod has now been declared deceased. None of the staff members (except maybe me) have enough time to do it anymore, and it's going out. If enough of the younger crowd on HLP want to take it over, PM me and I'll start a thread.
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1/ the value of the Fs licence is based not on the money it could make, but also the money it could take off Titus / Interplay. which makes it more expensive than it may seem. It'll also be priced / valued based on the cost of developing the games and advertising them.
2/ Surely we don't need FS3, just a moddable space sim (Homeplanet seems promising IMO)? I mean, if we had FS3, most of the campaigns here would be instantly invalid.... FS2's open ending is the best thing that could have happened for modding, even if it is a shame it wasn't completed. Beside which, any othe rmajor projects I start (unlikely as it may be) after Reci will not be set in the FS universe.
3/ Methinks we may be going over old ground here.
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Originally posted by kasperl
what about this:
once we've got the rights, we make up somekind legal thing, that says the following:
the HLP gives the rights on freespace to volition on the following conditions:
1. volition relaeses all artwork, unpublished missions and that stuff into the community
2. volition makes FS3 within x months (where x is some kind of reasonable number)
3. voltion will realese the source of fs3 after x years from publishing the game
4. the community is being mentioned in the credits of FS3
(5.) the SCPprogrammers will help with FS3 (if they want to)
and if :V: doesn't do as we like, we can simply terminate the agreement and get the rights back to us so we can relaese FS3
[/size]
Ooo ooo lets make them do our homework and chores too!! And on donut tuesdays, we get to pick first and come back for seconds, then they can have the crumbs!!!11
:doubt:
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Beside which, any othe rmajor projects I start (unlikely as it may be) after Reci will not be set in the FS universe.
same here. If I get to finish OTT, if there's something next, it won't be FSuniverse based. OTT is my vision of how he FS2 story might end, and I'd have nothing more to add to it.
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Aha, but you see, that's only one small part of the entire Freespace timeline. There's still the Lost Generation (between FS1 and FS2) that could use a good campaign or two, not to mention the entire Terran-Vasudan War (hint :)) and even stuff before that. :nod:
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Theres one thing i don't understand, instead of making an entire new game and engine just modify one its been done before. Check out my Freespace Doom 3 project it will be free completly free well if it did cost something it would be illegal anyway but im not in it for the money im in it for making a much better freespace game cause i can't stand the outdated graphics. :)
http://mods.moddb.com/834/
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The best solution I see at this point in time is for someone to get a large project going to complement the FSSCP, and develop non-code materials to use in replacement of the originals. Moving to another engine has a big disadvantage: not everyone in the community will like it. It's not like everyone can just be ordered over to a new game. There are people with years of experience modding Freespace and won't want to take the trouble of learning to mod a new game.
To revitalize Freespace, we need a few things:
1) A game engine with graphics fairly close to modern ones. This is already happening with the Freespace Source Code Project.
2) Original media to go with #1 that takes the place of the media that came with Freespace 2. In other words, you should be able to play with just the engine and the media. Any of the TC mods would be a candidate, the problem is finishing them.
3) PUBLICITY!![/i][/u] At the moment, there isn't much news or information on Freespace at all. If I wanted to find out the status of the campaigns currently in progress, I'd have to search for quite a bit. It's difficult to find the latest demo for a given campaign. There should be something to get someone visiting HLP hooked on Freespace. A link to the demo, for example. I realize the admins have lives and jobs, but "size matters not". The more news and content there is, the more likely someone will spot something that interests them.
Anyway, just my $.02 ;)
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I don't think we should tempt fate by giving :V: a deadline. How abut something like this?
1) They actually work on fs3, not put it off.
2) They advertise it.
3) They either release the source code to the programmers, or they tell US what they need, we make it, and they do all the story stuff.
This on is a maybe....
4) They reopen the VBB.......
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Originally posted by aldo_14
2/ Surely we don't need FS3, just a moddable space sim (Homeplanet seems promising IMO)? I mean, if we had FS3, most of the campaigns here would be instantly invalid.... FS2's open ending is the best thing that could have happened for modding, even if it is a shame it wasn't completed. Beside which, any othe rmajor projects I start (unlikely as it may be) after Reci will not be set in the FS universe.
my idea! MINE:):)
hehe actually consider this:
homeplanet comes out. we get the engine for free (not a mod, its freeware, atleast the engine is, read ifh.firstones.com). everyone, and i mean everyone!! pitches in to make a really good TC for fs2. right now, there is atleast about 5-10 really good modelleres in the community, dittor texturers.
that sounds more feasible than buying the right to fs3 and all that.
honestly, what do you think??
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With the campaigns and the sorce code project, were still in the running, i`ve been playing since fs1 came out in 98 i believe, may be wrong...
But the point is it`s not wearing off for me... The Babylon Project is another one that is quality controlled..:yes: Played the Blackwater Operations demo, it`s another sign of quality control...:yes: Have to wait for the rest of the campaigns, but i`m used to waiting, great things come to those who wait..:D :D :D
Hardlight Productions will be here and so will i :yes: :yes:
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N/M then, I guess Freespace will eventually slow down and die.
It's not that we don't have a shortage of material, no, it's that we have a shortage of people.
The "old heads" will eventually leave, and all that will be left are 20 or so new guys. They'll eventually leave, and so will this web site.
Of course, if we could somehow get a lot of new ppl to join the community, that'd be great, but we'd have to release something. Like we could majorely p1mp Blackwater Ops over the internet, and distribute FS2 with it (it's legal now, I think, because they released the source).
BTW, if anyone bothered to read my post, you'd see that I suggested some different ideas than kasperl
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BTW, that Homeplanet game looks, except for the ships, pretty ugly.
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eh?
i think that its currently among the 2 or 3 best looking space sim engines around. But both EVE and Freelancer are going to be online only. i dont know how high you set your standards, but i think its noticably better then fs2 (no offence to fs2).
i think that the fs2 community is still gong strong, and new people capable of modding are comming along all the time (general yoda recently). but i still think that some of the oldies need to stay around.
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ok,in my posts of yesterday i kinda missed the entire point of this thread, sorry, i was half asleep.
now,i might bring in a couple of new members, cause the moment i get my hands on FS2 in a full package, i'll copy it and distribute it among my friends (and yes, that is legal). so that way we mioght gain, about 10 poeple more. wouldn't it be possible to get other people we all know to join the comunity. kinda like a "Tell Your Friends!!!" just to get enough people. and with the TVWP we're going to have enough material to keep going for some time.
and perhaps,in a year or 5, the engine is reall outdated and people start leaving, that is too bad. but we're not dead yet, so why think of dead? it will only turn into a self fulfilling prophecy, cause if everyone thinks that it'll be over in a few years, nobody will actually do something.
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before I got freespace, I was actively modding Wolfenstein. No, not RTCW, the original Wolfenstein 3d. I released several mods, the community was strong, even now, two years after I left, I get 3-4 e-mails per month asking for tips, guidelines, etc.
a good game, just won´t die.
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Doesn't mean that'll happen to Freespace. In fact, if anything, that won't happen to FS.
BTW, that is truly one of the uglier space sims I've seen, Hegemonia (a strat game) looks better than that.
(Don't believe me? Check out www.hegemonia.info)
Freespace in it's current state looks worse than that.
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Alright, maybe I am a pessimest (it has been remarked) but I truly think this entire community will die out within the next 2-3 years, if nothing happens other than new campaigns being released.
Does anyone know why those campaigns will only have a minimal effect on the Freespace community?
Anyone?
It's because they're being released for the community.
Now, I don't mind that, in fact, I think that it's a great thing. But the very thing that makes those campaigns great is also their downfall. Because they're being released for the inner community and ONLY the inner community, they are, in reality doing very little for the Freespace legacy. They don't bring anyone new in, so it all goes around in a big circle at the end.
Of course, if even the SCP was released over the web, HLP had a banner in the lineup on the GS server's websites, if the campaigns were packaged with a fully-working .EXE for Freespace and everything required to run the game, if only for that campaign and later mods, then the community would truly flourish once again.
As it stands, no one is doing even that. Everyone says: "No, that would be wrong. We can't do that"
And why not? It's not because of copyright issues, as the release of the source code nullifyed it and essentially made the game worthless. No, it's because no one wants to, and for that, I have no explanation, because we have NOTHING TO LOSE, and EVERYTHING to gain!
Whatever. This post is going to be skipped over, and everyone's going to go back to the MINOR point about buying the rights to FS. In case you haven't realized, that was NOT my MAJOR POINT IN THE THREAD!
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Alright, maybe I am a pessimest (it has been remarked) but I truly think this entire community will die out within the next 2-3 years, if nothing happens other than new campaigns being released.
Does anyone know why those campaigns will only have a minimal effect on the Freespace community?
Anyone?
It's because they're being released for the community.
Now, I don't mind that, in fact, I think that it's a great thing. But the very thing that makes those campaigns great is also their downfall. Because they're being released for the inner community and ONLY the inner community, they are, in reality doing very little for the Freespace legacy. They don't bring anyone new in, so it all goes around in a big circle at the end.
Of course, if even the SCP was released over the web, HLP had a banner in the lineup on the GS server's websites, if the campaigns were packaged with a fully-working .EXE for Freespace and everything required to run the game, if only for that campaign and later mods, then the community would truly flourish once again.
As it stands, no one is doing even that. Everyone says: "No, that would be wrong. We can't do that"
And why not? It's not because of copyright issues, as the release of the source code nullifyed it and essentially made the game worthless. No, it's because no one wants to, and for that, I have no explanation, because we have NOTHING TO LOSE, and EVERYTHING to gain!
Good points. :yes:
We should stop being pessimists. If we say it's going to die out, it will. If we're optimistic and bring in new members, it'll flourish. Doesn't matter about the quality of the engine - the game itself is a classic. :nod:
But a question...
As it stands, no one is doing even that. Everyone says: "No, that would be wrong. We can't do that"
Eh, why not, and why do people say that? :confused:
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i see. why do you have such a bad attitude.
if you like the game, and if people are commited then it will not be lost.
who cares if its only released to the inner community. a community is not guaged on the number of members, but rather on its activity.
btw i played the haegemonia demo, its ok, nothing too great. It pisses me off that alot of people around here are really bitter and pessimisstic. Whatever new model is released, whatever new campaign is planned, whatever course of action is undertaken by the members of the FS community, these people respond to it in a bad way. hey if you're here you like FS, and if you like FS please try to atleast try to keep the community going intead of complaining all the time.
homeplanet looks pretty good, but thats no reason that it cant look really good, just cause the official game has x polies per ship doesnt mean that we cant release y polies per ship. right now its just graphics and ease of modability, the rest (story, ideas etc etc) there is an adundance of.
btw why dont you try to get some FS models into haegemonia, that seems like a cool idea..
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
As it stands, no one is doing even that. Everyone says: "No, that would be wrong. We can't do that"
And why not? It's not because of copyright issues, as the release of the source code nullifyed it and essentially made the game worthless. No, it's because no one wants to, and for that, I have no explanation, because we have NOTHING TO LOSE, and EVERYTHING to gain!
ok see, thats what i mean. when an idea or campaign comes along you can say
a) thats not the savior of the FS community, bla bla bla, its not good bla bla bla bla
or
b)wow, good work man. now try imporivng this and this to make it even better.
obviously getting the FS license is not very likely, so what the next best thing...
i say homeplanet, you say haegemonia. as long as its SOMETHING i'm more or less happy.
good day sir, we're all in this as fs fans, so i dont really wanna bicker ok??
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I read this whole thread, and noticed that you all are just throwing **** into the wind. People have been saying the FS community is dying for almost 2 years now.
POINT 1:
Forget about the Freespace rights. You'll never get them. So, I ask thee a question: When you can't use the freespace name, use something else. A brief history lesson:
Descent: Freespace got it's name because the basic name of "Freespace" was already taken.
Think of something, like "FreeVoyage" etc. Build on that.
Why get a new engine? we have one that allows us to do so much. the SCP is kicking ass and gaining new ground. Soon higher poly models, better lighting and nebula effects, and maybe, just maybe, even Atmosphere & large scale terrain. I know it is possible because the engine was based on Descent.
Next thing to consider - forget the campaigns. Hell, if half the people devoted to campaigns came together on one MASSIVE project, then things would get done a lot faster, and I assure you, it WOULD get noticed. Combine efforts.
Last, single player gaming is old, dying, and losing a lot of ground. Online playing is the new wave, it's here to stay, and will only get more involved. Look at the large titles- NWN, MW, UT2k3, U2, Doom3, hell, look at older ones like q3 and CS. MMORPG's and MMOFPS's are becoming the hottest sellers.
Nothing would be better than to map out the nodes and have wingman playing from all sides of the globe.
The difference in the claims that everyone is screaching about, "Let's get the rights and MAKE :v: do this!!!!" is complete and utter bull****. On the contrary, what I've outlined has the same results and is possible.
Not easy, but possible.
this concludes the longest post by me ever on HLP. g'day.
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i'll never leave the Freespace community
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POINT 1:
I already suggested that we use a different name. Ta-da!
POINT 2:
Hegemonia isn't modable yet, so I can't do that.
Originally posted by Rictor.
b)wow, good work man. now try imporivng this and this to make it even better.
POINT 3:
Yes, I could say that. In fact, I will say that. What's your point?
POINT 4:
No, the FS community will not survive for as long as we would like it to, because we are getting OLDER. Therefore, we will no longer eventually be able to spend enough time playing a 4-year-old game.
POINT 5:
And...still no response on my idea of having the ENTIRE community get together, make FS3 (and it would be nice, considering that all the fans made it), and release it along with an updated source code, and name it something like The End of Space or some really cool title like that.
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Originally posted by heretic
Last, single player gaming is old, dying, and losing a lot of ground. Online playing is the new wave, it's here to stay, and will only get more involved. Look at the large titles- NWN, MW, UT2k3, U2, Doom3, hell, look at older ones like q3 and CS. MMORPG's and MMOFPS's are becoming the hottest sellers.
huh? Maybe in the USA massively online games are widely played, but that's not true for every country. Saying that single player is dying is well I'll just :lol: at that.
And doom3 is a terrible exemple, ID clearly said that it would feature only 4 player deathmatch ( if there was a full multiplayer possibility for it, who would buy quake4, huh? ). Doom3 is the perfect exemple proving that single player is and will remain the main wain to play games, just coz people can't all afford mmorpg.
as for making a fan made FS3, that won't happen coz everybody has its own vision of the FS3 plot, some will want the ancients to come back, some others will want the shivans t be eradicated, and nobody will agree and say "let's take "insert name here"'s plot and let's make this one, coz most will rather say: why this one? mine's better. That point has already been questioned during the FS forever project, and what I said above had been proven true. And no matter what one would say, that's the way it would go.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
...
N/M then, I guess Freespace will eventually slow down and die.
It's not that we don't have a shortage of material, no, it's that we have a shortage of people.
The "old heads" will eventually leave, and all that will be left are 20 or so new guys. They'll eventually leave, and so will this web site.
Hey you! The pessimist with the tarot cap on.... *SMACK* :rolleyes:
Quit making predictions. You don't have anything to back up being definite about whether the oldbies will be leaving or not. Even if the oldbies do leave, they will leave behind a great foundation for the new-comers. The breakup of a community is independent on if/when the oldbies leave.
Any community breaking up is unpredictable and doesn't need pointing out. It has been brought up before and, frankly, I'm a bit sick of the FS series being compared to new standards :mad2: . 1998 to 2003 makes up 5 years of active community, some of which have even been staying throughout the whole 5 years.
I see lots of new possibilities to keep the community living for a very long time with the SCP and new mods/campaigns. When our current campaigns are being released there will be more projects to get us up for even more gameplay. :nod:
So the game is old... does that make it flawed? Age has nothing to do with having flaws.
To me, all the brand new projects and campaigns are FS3 enough... we have plenty of people in the talent and creativity departments to thank for that. :yes:
After all this summation, I find a #3 to add to your very first list of Freespace possibilities :p :
3. Leave the possibility of death alone. Some may leave but many more will come. Don't look at the fate of the community neither optimistically nor pessimistically, but logically.
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Oh, sure, that's nice.
Here's my cross-section:
Quit making predictions. You don't have anything to back up being definite about whether the oldbies will be leaving or not. Even if the oldbies do leave, they will leave behind a great foundation for the new-comers. The breakup of a community is independent on if/when the oldbies leave.
It is in this one. That's because, like I've said before: THERE'S NO ONE ELSE BESIDES THE OLDBIES! Once a game, any game, reaches a certain age, there is no way for anyone to hear about it anymore. Hell, HLP doesn't even have a banner in the Gamespy lineup, so no one can even hear about the site, and, subsquentially, Freespace.
BTW, the oldbies WILL leave. Everything will and does come to and end, and there is no denying it. They'll get bored, they'll find another game, they'll move on!
THEY WILL LEAVE EVENTUALLY!
I see lots of new possibilities to keep the community living for a very long time with the SCP and new mods/campaigns. When our current campaigns are being released there will be more projects to get us up for even more gameplay.
Did you read a single thing I said earlier? Sure, they'll keep making campaings, but it will only be for the SELECT few who still play a 4-year-old game! Hell, I don't even play it anymore, I just mod it!
3. Leave the possibility of death alone. Some may leave but many more will come. Don't look at the fate of the community neither optimistically nor pessimistically, but logically.
Um, dude, logically this community will not last long. Logically, it should've died out about 2 years ago.
Also, what the hell is the problem with releasing a game over the internet? Sure, it's a lot of work, but, hey, BWO was in development for what, 4 years? Or would it be too much work to give this community another 5 years of life?
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if only that people that already like freespace just get more cool stuff like campaigns and ships, eventually a new engine etc etc i consider that a success
why do you need to bring in new people. every person has his game that he/she really likes and is a part of that community. the simple fact that halflife/mods thereof has more people interested doesnt bother me.
if the people we have right now stay here and continue to make cool stuff, i'm happy.
halflife is still being modded, ditto total anhiliation, ditto ut (ut 1 not ut2003), ditto quake3...all of which are as old or older that FS2.
to be honest i DO care about graphics and i HAVENT played fs2 in a long time. but that doesnt mean i dont like it, or that i wont play it again.
i agree, if something is to happen, we need to accept that some of the campaigns that have been started will not be completed, and get those people to pool their resources to actually release something. imagine if the Babylon project team, the Reciporicty/COW team, the Dark Alliance team, the OTT team etc etc got together, we would have ourselves an epic (again, probably know only to the community, but not necessarily)..yes BTW i do know of Paradigm Shift but is anyone actually working on that.
what i'm saying is that if you say "whatever, its as good as gone" then thats exactly what you'll get. However if you say "no, i love this game and Counter-Strike and the Sims can kiss my ass, i'm gonna keep on playing/modding" then its all good..
its up to you, if you want it to fail, goodbye, if you think it will fail, try to stop it, if you hope it wont fail, and are going to do your best to make fs live on, good for you.
now stop the arguing and start thinking of a way to make the legend live on and continue to kick ass..
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Alright, maybe I am a pessimest (it has been remarked) but I truly think this entire community will die out within the next 2-3 years, if nothing happens other than new campaigns being released.
The FS2 community will last as long as there is nothing better around than it. Due to the source code release coupled with FRED's ease of use FS2 is probably the most modable engine on the market. Until something comes along as easy to mod I can`t see much of the community leaving.
Secondly there is something we can do. FS2 is freely distributable to friends. Don`t wait till they ask for a copy - SHOVE IT DOWN THEIR THROATS NOW! :devil:
If everyone here made sure that every friend of theirs had a copy of FS2 and the address of HLP we'd probably have 20 new members by the end of the week. I`m sure lots of us have friends who we haven`t converted over to FS2. Now we can do so legally. Don`t wait till they ask. Just give them a disk with the game on and make them play it. Even if everyone only convinced one friend that would double the number of players :)
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I've read this thread, and I was just wondering. Why don't we put fs2 up for download. But instead of putting up the original .exe, we could supply the latest version of the SCP? I'd be willing to upload it to my space on the TVWP space.
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It's already uploaded on the FSSCP site. There's a link in the SCP forum and all. The problem is spreading the news and getting the word out.
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Some of the major newsites? CGW has a "Homebrew" column, a banner in the GS lineup and elsewhere.
There are many ways.
And imagine all the extra talent we might be able to get if more ppl join the community.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
It is in this one. That's because, like I've said before: THERE'S NO ONE ELSE BESIDES THE OLDBIES! Once a game, any game, reaches a certain age, there is no way for anyone to hear about it anymore. Hell, HLP doesn't even have a banner in the Gamespy lineup, so no one can even hear about the site, and, subsquentially, Freespace.
BTW, the oldbies WILL leave. Everything will and does come to and end, and there is no denying it. They'll get bored, they'll find another game, they'll move on!
THEY WILL LEAVE EVENTUALLY!
:wtf: errm.... no.....
I see plenty of new people. You can't say all the oldbies will leave, there's no proof!
Originally posted by Unknown Target
Um, dude, logically this community will not last long. Logically, it should've died out about 2 years ago.
Based on what facts? Where do you get this information? :confused:
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It's the simple age of the game. By 2001, there were no new copies of Freespace 2 or Freespace being made, and relatively few being bought. Then about half of those who bought it never joined the community, then, of course, there were the ppl leaving: about 1 every month. Of course, you had a +2 every month as well, allthough that has now slowed down to about 5-6 ACTIVELY engaged ppl per 3-5 months.
BTW, those new ppl joining are the exception, not the rule. You notice how little they post? If you took out all the 1-posters and non-posters in the HLP database, you'd only get around maybe half the amount we have now.
And that's including the 10-posters who aren't posting anymore, and such.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Hell, HLP doesn't even have a banner in the Gamespy lineup, so no one can even hear about the site, and, subsquentially, Freespace.
Well that one is easily resolved surely. Why doesn`t HLP have an ad in the gamespy Line-up anyway? In fact judging from the info I got from gamespy when MG was hosted it didn`t look too hard (it even sounded like I could make and submit one for MG itself let alone HLP)
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if we relased something serious ala sourcecode exe + some cool models and mission all in one package, PCGamer might put it on their disk,..
aside from that, we need a coherent database of mods, aswell as stuff actually getting released. I got a question, why doesnt HLP of FSWatch have a coherent database of every mod and ship model around (not the Volitonwatch archives, those are not updated etc etc)
if we got some serious progress, maybe magazines and/or websites might give us some publicity.
BTW the source code: I havent seen one good improvement, though i may be too shallow (graphics.). Can we make FS2 look like Iwar2 or better in 6 months or less. if no, whats the big deal with going to the homeplanet engine,. we could distribute the exe for free.
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Originally posted by Rictor
BTW the source code: I havent seen one good improvement, though i may be too shallow (graphics.). Can we make FS2 look like Iwar2 or better in 6 months or less. if no, whats the big deal with going to the homeplanet engine,. we could distribute the exe for free.
Have you even been looking?
Glow maps, damage decals, modified FRED, glowpoints, more sexps, almost all bugs fixed - andf I'm not even following it that closely.
Actally go have a look in the SCP forum before you start to knock it.:rolleyes:
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you all have made good points, i can`t argue that...
Since the birth of HLP i have watched it grow from a small webpage to what it is now. I just became a member last year, why? i guess i was a dum (insert word here)..:lol:
This community has grown and it is normal for people to leave, but that has nothing to do with the (rumors) that it is dying, that`s absurb and carries no weight, all the campaigns that are hosted here should atest to that fact and you cannot alter the truth, com`on, take a good look around, see the broad picture, it tells no lies..
As it was said many months ago, yes eventually FS2 may cease, but then HLP will just adapt with the changes and yes, you will see HLP hosting other games as well but for now, FS2 lives a strong and healthy life right here at Hardlight Productions... :yes:
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I can't believe you had bugs to fix. FS2 was originally a very stable product.
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Not really stability bugs - most of those were fixed during the whole bug fix of the day thing. More like the bug that means you can't have custom weapons in the weapons tech room, that sort of thing.
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Stuff like the player entry delay, the failure music always playing for standalone missions, etc.
EDIT: Yay! 1234 posts!
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Interesting thread here; should have seen this before. I agree with UT on the FS lifetime issue though. As much as I wish it was otherwise, realistically speaking, it looks like the community will last another two years or so but that's probably about it. The rate at which new people are coming in is significantly lower than the rate of the older people becoming inactive, so there will eventually not be too many of us left. The problem is not at all that FS2 is old (there are much older games out there with big communities, but those communities keep regenerating over time), but rather that it is becoming nearly impossible to find these days, so nobody ever hears of it and its popularity suffers heavily. I think someone mentioned that HLP was not advertised in the gamespy banners for some reasons; this issue should definitely be addressed asap, since such advertising is much more important to the FS2 community than that of most other games.
I personally will remain fairly active in the community at least until PI is complete, but I cannot really say after that. In the last two weeks I have hardly gotten on the computer at all due to real life issues, and it probably isn't going to get any better with college.
Actually, what about that license agreement? I remember it saying that it can be distributed to friends, but who exactly qualifies as a "friend" is very fluid and subjective. :p What if the entire thing is released for free on the internet? This would considerably increase the rate of newcomers joining the community, and you could just say that the world is your friend. :D
BTW I have not been following the SCP developments very closely either; it looks like you guys have gotten quite far there, as even these little fixes can do a lot for mission designers. ;) How is the debriefing music system handled now? Did you get around to adding a scrollbar in the command briefing screen? Also, is there now some event operator to change a ship's AI class within a mission? (I remember reading something about this in the SCP forum and might have a use for it) Anyway, it's looking very good so far. :yes:
Since the birth of HLP i have watched it grow from a small webpage to what it is now. I just became a member last year, why? i guess i was a dum (insert word here)..
Actaully, I did that on the VBB as well; you're not alone. :D (found the place in July 1999 but lurked until December :p)
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And besides, when the coders are upgrading the graphics and assing features, yuo can be sure that there will be bugs along the way. Of course it was a very stable product when released, and the SCP has been doing a good job of keeping things stable. But stability happens after the testing is done. I'd say the SCP has done a fantastic job, and if bugs show up and are subsequently repaired, that arises as a function of adding all the new goodies.
Honestly though, Unknown Target, if you are so convinced that we are dying and you see nothing but doom and gloom, bail out, or at the very least shut up. Besides, your pessimism isn't even coherent. Complaining that nothing is being accomplished by the SCP to lengthen the lifespan of this "old, outdated game", and then worrying that what is being done is temporarily buggy (which only happens precisely because we are adding new, cool features) only indicates a lack of coherent thought on the subject and that you've reached this conclusion without consistently following through one line of thought to get there. Either objection might lead to your conclusion, but the two arise in contradictory situations, so you can't have both. Therefore it sounds to me that you've decided on this conclusion not because of certain reasons, but look for reasons because of your pre-established "conclusion". Poor logic, my friend, poor logic.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Honestly though, Unknown Target, if you are so convinced that we are dying and you see nothing but doom and gloom, bail out, or at the very least shut up. Besides, your pessimism isn't even coherent. Complaining that nothing is being accomplished by the SCP to lengthen the lifespan of this "old, outdated game", and then worrying that what is being done is temporarily buggy (which only happens precisely because we are adding new, cool features) only indicates a lack of coherent thought on the subject and that you've reached this conclusion without consistently following through one line of thought to get there. Either objection might lead to your conclusion, but the two arise in contradictory situations, so you can't have both. Therefore it sounds to me that you've decided on this conclusion not because of certain reasons, but look for reasons because of your pre-established "conclusion". Poor logic, my friend, poor logic.
Well put Sesqu. :D
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Originally posted by Hades
Well put Sesqu. :D
Yes, indeed. :D
The license agreement seems to be very accommodating since it says both friends and acquaintances. Now friends is debatable, but an acquaintance could be almost anyone you ever met, including people on the HLPBB. :D
CP5670: the debriefing checks to see if a campaign is currently running; if so, then it plays failure if you can't advance to the next mission, success if all goals are complete, and quasi-failure if goals aren't complete but you can still advance. If you're not in a campaign, the music plays success if goals are complete and quasi-failure if they're not. No command briefing scrollbar, but you can now change ship class. :nod: Read the fs2_open release thread.
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Actually, UD is planning to put up both FreeSpaces on HOTU soon. Since several thousand people regularly attend HOTU, and that's just the ones that leave a sign of such, I do believe the community may swell considerably.
Particularly if, as I'm trying to finagle, it's the SCP version of FS2 that goes up, rather than the Volition one (she wants it because she could fit in DivXed cutscenes, but the Interplay format ones are too big, we want it because it'll mean Hard Light gets some attention and glory).
Also, just as a side note- why the hell do we need the license? Interplay and Titus don't care, Volition would likely say more power to us, since they can't use it- whatever we make here, we could distribute as "FreeSparce 3" and give the Shivans an extra leg, and, honestly, nobody'd give a crap. We'd get some threatening letters from Titus, likely, but they'd be out of their minds and stupid, too, to try to sue a loose, small amateur modding community of mostly non-rich people, who put up a game with strong parallels to one they own but don't plan on profiting from. We don't even have someone in charge to bring to court. If you want to turn modding here into a profitmaking venture after Volition's gone through all the trouble to give us very good free tools (and even the source), help out community to grow at their own expense, there shouldn't be a problem with screwing Interplay out of their copyright.
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Originally posted by StrykeIX
Actually, UD is planning to put up both FreeSpaces on HOTU soon. Since several thousand people regularly attend HOTU, and that's just the ones that leave a sign of such, I do believe the community may swell considerably.
Hmm, who is this person you're talking about? Maybe I should get ahold of them and see if something can be arranged.
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Now, this is exciting!
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Originally posted by Shrike
Hmm, who is this person you're talking about? Maybe I should get ahold of them and see if something can be arranged.
i don't think it's a person
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Originally posted by StrykeIX
Actually, UD is planning to put up both FreeSpaces on HOTU soon.
pardon my abbreviation ignorance, but UD? HOTU?
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yeah, if you use an abbreviation, you're supposed to at least say what the real name is.
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Underdog and Home of the Underdogs, I think. (HOTU is probably the biggest and most famous old games site on the internet) It would be very, very good for publicity if we could get FS2 up there. :nod:
CP5670: the debriefing checks to see if a campaign is currently running; if so, then it plays failure if you can't advance to the next mission, success if all goals are complete, and quasi-failure if goals aren't complete but you can still advance. If you're not in a campaign, the music plays success if goals are complete and quasi-failure if they're not. No command briefing scrollbar, but you can now change ship class. Read the fs2_open release thread.
Cool, I need to check that out soon.
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Originally posted by Stealth
i don't think it's a person
So why did he say 'she' then?
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Originally posted by Shrike
So why did he say 'she' then?
beats me!
i don't even know what "HOTU" is, i was just assuming it's a company... that would make the most sense.
also, i don't think he used "she" referring to "HOTU"... i think he was using it in regards something else... i dunno
Stryke, enlighten us :D
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The "she" is probably Underdogs, who I think is the person running the place, and HOTU is the website.
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HOTU? Cool, that will definately get us publicity.
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Shrike: HOTU is the biggest and most famous abandonware site on the net. It's THE core for most everything, despite the fact that it's a bit more adherent to the copyright laws than other sites. UD is Underdogs, the founder and sole head, who happens to be female.
I can put you through, but I don't know to what extent she wants the community involved. She was mostly interested because I misstated and said that the FSSCP had ALREADY made a version of FreeSpace 2 with DivX compatibility (which at the time I thought was the case, since it was a priority last I had checked), which would mean significantly smaller movie sizes.
If you want to talk to her, and get a response any time soon, I suggest you post to her at the Gamer's Corner at http://the-underdogs.org/forum, though. She comes on forum pretty regularly, but she gets a ****load of email.
Say you work for me, and you'll get someone's eye sooner or later.:D
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The FSSCP does indeed have DivX support - but only in the DirectX 8 build. Specifically, it supports playing any movie with an appropriate codec installed (not just DivX) by spawning a Windows Media Player window. Inquisitor is working to move the movie player code into the main branch as we speak.
Unfortunately, the DivX licensing guys are being obstinate, and we're still trying to clarify what campaign designers would be doing by releasing DivX cutscenes. The FSSCP itself is not to blame, since we're going through Media Player, but the DivX people currently don't want campaign designers to release DivX-coded cutscenes for distribution.
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Well then, I'm not a campaign designer, am I?;)
You know, I can remember when DivX wasn't a monopoly by some pain-in-the-ass gits. At least, I THINK I can remember.
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Can`t we just use Xvid or another compressor? I`m no expert when it comes to these things but if you`re using media player why can`t you just use any format MP recognises?
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You can. (I think)
DivX is being talked about simply because that is the particular codec currently being talked about. Encode in whatever you want.
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If we could make it downloadble we cloud instandly a much wider modding goup see
this tread on Ars.technica.com (http://arstechnica.infopop.net/OpenTopic/page?a=tpc&s=50009562&f=39309975&m=5860955145)
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I completed FS2 again the other day, and by God it's still great fun. I love it, love it to bits, and I shall be playing it on and off until the day I die.
Of course what the game needs to keep it ticking over, apart from the wonderful work of the SCP guys, is campaigns, and good ones at that. My main ***** with most of the major released campaigns so far? NO VOICES!
I know I've done this rant before, but without half-way professional sounding voices a campaign just seems... unfinished. It's missing something, and you know it.
My opinion is that only with good voice acting can a campaign be considered a top-flight project. No disrespect to the campaigns out there, but even the best FREDded or most graphically impressive work won't grab me unless it's got full voice acting. I'm not bothering to download anything that isn't voiced over these days.
Course, that's just my two euros.
Now, another thing that'd be useful would be for people to try and get FS2, HLP and the rest of it mentioned where people will see - websites, game magazines, and what have you. If we could advertise FS2 to gamers and the beautiful new ships and stuff to modellers, we may well find people stopping by who never heard of FS before. Blatant pimpage on respected sites like IGN or (insert 3D modelling website here) could boost the FS2 fan base with new talent and players. Hopefully, I might inspire someone with contacts to go out and start name dropping...
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Speaking of Voice acting.. :drevil:
Would you be intrested in doing a little speaking part anytime soon? I'll explain more when I get home. PM me or something
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As much as I insist on voice acting, I don't do it myself.
Apparently, I sound a lot like Michael Cain. In a bad way.