Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Nobilis Draco on February 11, 2003, 03:34:20 pm
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Stumbled across this, makes me happy i'm an American and not on the other end of one of these.
click, click, boom! (http://vampirebat.com/obeythefist/)
it's a FLIR recording from a AC-130 raid in afghanistan. towards the end a couple people take direct hits from the 40mm and come apart.
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Poor bastards. When was it war got this impersonal- at least, twenty years ago, the other guy stood a fair chance.
Still, I wanna get me one a' them Bofors now.
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Aren't snuff videos illegal? :mad:
Oh, that's right. It's perfectly alright for us to show the US military blowing up the bad guys, because they fight for truth, justice and freedom. Die you foreign white blobs!
And people wonder why human life has no value.
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Oh, that's right. It's perfectly alright for us to show the US military blowing up the bad guys, because they fight for truth, justice and freedom. Die you foreign white blobs!
Of course. Bad guys are funny evil demon men with beards who get bombed by fighter jets. They don't mind :D
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By that logic, practically every war photo ever taken is a crime against humanity...:rolleyes:
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Good stuff there, but the movie quality is really lacking; it's difficult to make out anything on the ground and the grayscale colors don't help.
And people wonder why human life has no value.
rather obvious, I should think... :p
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It's a nightvision image, dude. Nightvision is like that.
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oh, never mind then. Still, the camera resolution is too low to see anything except blob-like formations on the ground.
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this better be good...
EDIT: ;7 kool. Was surprising though, I thought those were bombs. Cept', what is up with the dude yelling like a tard' everytime a bomb hits?
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It is war remember? This is what they do, kill people.
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Those aren't bombs. Which is pretty damn cool, actually.
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my favorite part was the last 2 minutes where the rounds left the sickass glowing craters and you could barely make out the bodies flying :D
guy yelling still made it kinda dorky.
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Nice, you. Next time, you be on the recieving end.:doubt:
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Nice, you. Next time, you be on the recieving end.:doubt:
don't worry, it happens enough when I play BF1942 :p
what's with the morbid humanitarism today? :blah:
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Aren't snuff videos illegal? :mad:
Oh, that's right. It's perfectly alright for us to show the US military blowing up the bad guys, because they fight for truth, justice and freedom. Die you foreign white blobs!
And people wonder why human life has no value.
Hmmm... Seeing this is coming from a person who had PUBLIC executions in one's past. hmmmm....
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Oh, that's right. It's perfectly alright for us to show the US military blowing up the bad guys, because they fight for truth, justice and freedom. Die you foreign white blobs!
And people wonder why human life has no value.
you've never even heard of war, have you?
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The greyscale is becasue it was recorded through the FLIR (forward looking infra-red) it sees heat why the people and the craters glow. it is overly compressed. yep not bombs 40mm bofors cannon rounds those wheren't the biggest it had eiter. it also has a 105mm cannon.
for those not familliar the AC-130(who are interested.)
Go Here. (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/ac-130.htm)
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hm lets see how about this:
If someone were to show (and glorify) the killing of US people, you would think of them as sick and soulless. But as long as they wear a turban, its ok..right
See war is one thing. You kill because you want to get your way.
Enjoying the taking of someone elses live if just bad..
People who enjoy the act of killing can just be grouped in with the pedophiles and such,
my 0.02c
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*nods*
And I don't understand how the mods/admins allow such f*cked up clips to be posted on this board. Its disgusting that people actually take pride in this killing.
I'm not saying that at times there is no other option... but to take pride in it, no. Thats sick.
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Frankly, I don't care about it. If any other admins have anything against it, well, then they go ahead and remove the link.
:p
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oh joy! swedish weapons used by americans... didn't know you had those tho. only those carl gustafs and AT4s, and that BOL countermeasures thingy...
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FYI, not EVERY American is running around with video footage of weapons in action bragging bout it.
It's nothing to do with "Oh look....he's got a towel on his head" LOL There's a bit more going on there, but I'm not getting all into that .... if you're curious...use the search....it's been posted about on and on in here already.
and I can perfectly understand why the MODs allow this thread, there's been enough anti-US threads in here with nothing done about it, why start now ? :P
Now has to warfare being compared to ****ing little kids....dude....you've got issues.
If you guys can't understand ,... I'm sorry,...but for most Military (I'm referring to things said in the clip,...not here) they have to create a detachment with their mission and themselves. When your JOB is to kill in war, you learn to deal with it. Trust me that was a topic we discussed alot while I was on active duty,...how you'd deal with it when it actually came down to pulling the trigger. Yea it sucks to have to take another human life,...whatever the reason,...no matter how much they deserve it. But you still have to be able to perform. So they joke and comment about it ike that, make it kinna like a video game. Later once they're back home.....they can truely deal with the taking of life.
**EDIT** Just a note I JUST woke up....so if have this doesn't make since .....oh well :D
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a). I didn't say all americans, i said the people who take pride in this.
b). This isn't a simple anti-USenemy thread. There was a movie posted about them getting killed. Now I don't recall seeing movies about US soldiers/ppl getting killed in the anti-america rantings.
c). I know it has to be done BUT that doesn't mean it should be openly posted on the net. But since that is unavoidable at least don't post movies like this on HLP, which is a GAMING community.
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All vaild points. My meaning was the political mess going on in here has progressed so much that this was going to happen from one group or another regardless.
yea,...HlP is a gaming forum,... but it's a bit too late to use that reason,....if that was used now .... then most of the other threads that turned into "Let's ***** about the war" should have been closed long before.
Then again ... this isn't much worse than crap they let the News show us ,.... which don't get me wrong .... I wholeheartedy agree shouldn't happen. War is no place for the media. 'Nam showed us that without a doubt.
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Debating is ok, I don't care wether it is anti US or anti Iraq. As long as it is a discussion (not swearing etc). But posting threads with the sole purpose of showing of that the US killed these persons is just plain WRONG.
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Originally posted by Tiara
Debating is ok, I don't care wether it is anti US or anti Iraq. As long as it is a discussion (not swearing etc).
heh I don't think any of them qualify for that though ;)
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Originally posted by Warlock
then most of the other threads that turned into "Let's ***** about the war" should have been closed long before.
it's never too late, you know. I think those discussions have no place here indeed.
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Yes, if you really want to discuss this sort of stuff, go to the boards that are made for pro/anti america rantings.
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Very true.
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Sure they do; they provide more room for arguing, and that is always good. :D
But posting threads with the sole purpose of showing of that the US killed these persons is just plain WRONG.
Actually, no, there is absolutely nothing "wrong" with people who take pride in this, just as there is there is nothing at all wrong with the al Qaeda guys who were gloating at 9/11; no one is any more universally correct than any other on likes and dislikes. You might as well say that there is something wrong with posting threads about computer games. :p
b). This isn't a simple anti-USenemy thread. There was a movie posted about them getting killed. Now I don't recall seeing movies about US soldiers/ppl getting killed in the anti-america rantings.
Neither do I, but if I do see one, I would take it with the same humor as anything else. I also think that this particular movie is bad, but that's because the resolution sucks. :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
Actually, no, there is absolutely nothing "wrong" with people who take pride in this, just as there is there is nothing at all wrong with the al Qaeda guys who were gloating at 9/11; no one is any more universally correct than any other on likes and dislikes. You might as well say that there is something wrong with posting threads about computer games. :p
Then go watch the 9/11 attacks and tell me you found it funny.
People getting killed IS NOT funny. I don't care if you say everyone has its own likes and dislikes. Taking peoples lives and making fun of it is just wrong.
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Then go watch the 9/11 attacks and tell me you found it funny.
I personally did not find it funny (but did not find it scary, sad, or anything else either), but I at least have a wide enough outlook to see that taking pride in it is neither good nor bad in the absolute, and thus both of the two are equally correct. I can certainly understand how it, or anything else for that matter, can be found funny, given a certain kind of mindset and experience, even if I don't find it funny myself.
People getting killed IS NOT funny. I don't care if you say everyone has its own likes and dislikes. Taking peoples lives and making fun of it is just wrong.
That is simply your opinion and is not absolutely correct. I could say that sitting in chairs is NOT FUNNY. Sitting in chairs is just wrong. :D Nothing is funny and everything is funny, depending on how you look at it.
What I find funny though is everyone complaining about the warmongering American government having a provincial and unsophisticated view of the world and then saying things like this. :D
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I know it is my opinion, I never said it was a fact :D Read my friend, read between the lines.
But we went off course as what intended to say was that ir doesn't belong on this board. :p
Just to set the record straight, this is my opinion on killing: I find ALL killing wrong. But when it is needed to preserve the safety of the world or just others it is warrented, but even then ALL other resources must be depleted before taking that course.
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I didn't see anything about opinions at all there... :p
still, why not keep it around? This is essentially the off-topic forum after all, and it just gives us another topic to argue on... ;7
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HLP should create a "sensitive topics" forum. enter at your own risk,most anything goes
Anyways, if you think that death (especially groesome) is not funny, you have something wrong with you. The asssumption is that you know the difference between good an evil, and that good is to be admired, and evil to be a bad thing. If you dont have that moral convention in place, then we cant discuss anything, since we are working from different moral starting points
Really, think about it. When 9/11 happened, people were crying, oh the tragedy, oh no who could do this, they must be monsters. Well America has killed more (I'm assuming, though I think you can agree, its a safe bet) more than the number who died in 9/11 in their reteliatory strikes.
What you're saying is
5000 dead Americans=biggest tragedy ever (this **** is considered worse than the Holocaust by some stupid ****ers)
5000 dead Afganistanis (or Iraqis)=preserving freedom and liberty
I would gladly discuss this in a detached manner as some have suggested, because if we look at only the numbers, America would be shown to be twice as bad as anything Anti-yank protestors have conjured.
Btw lets end this (with me having the last word) or else decide to discuss this very objectivly and talk about the numbers.
again, admins, HLP should have a "enter at your own risk" forum
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If people are too lazy to depose leaders who take them to war, or so stupid as to vote in leaders who take them to war, then they deserve to die.
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Anyways, if you think that death (especially groesome) is not funny, you have something wrong with you. The asssumption is that you know the difference between good an evil, and that good is to be admired, and evil to be a bad thing. If you dont have that moral convention in place, then we cant discuss anything, since we are working from different moral starting points
Well, this whole concept of absolute good and evil is one of the most ridiculously flawed ideas I have ever seen. Once again, it could just as easily be said that if you think that sitting in chairs is good, there is something wrong with you. :D
My point is that you are free to believe whatever, but don't go around criticizing others for being absolutely "bad" and "evil" when they are exactly the same as you. (you sit on chairs, don't you? so you are evil! :D)
Really, think about it. When 9/11 happened, people were crying, oh the tragedy, oh no who could do this, they must be monsters. Well America has killed more (I'm assuming, though I think you can agree, its a safe bet) more than the number who died in 9/11 in their reteliatory strikes.
I certainly was not; it was just another event in the history of the world like any other. You need to read some of my older posts around here. :D The US is just as much of a terrorist nation as any other - every nation is a terrorist in its own way - and thus any action imaginable is justified as far as that goes. The best terrorist will be the winner here.
5000 dead Americans=biggest tragedy ever (this **** is considered worse than the Holocaust by some stupid ****ers)
Hold on, who exactly is claiming this? This was both an act of preserving freedom and liberty and an act of terrorism.
5000 dead Afganistanis (or Iraqis)=preserving freedom and liberty
And like the above incident, this is also both an act of liberation and one of terrorism. The two concepts are meaningless. The nations (ideally) just do whatever is best for their people alone.
Btw lets end this (with me having the last word) or else decide to discuss this very objectivly and talk about the numbers.
Sure thing. :D The US probably has the highest kill count so far (or maybe not since its history has been short, but it is near the top at any rate), so it is a big terrorist state. And since the more capable the terrorist the higher its chances are of victory, that's a good thing. :D
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[color=66ff00]Tiara I would advise that you don't attempt to argue with CP, he has unique and extremist views on pretty much everything and just enjoys arguing for the hell of it.
I have to admit that at the current time I am anti US. Mostly because Bush and pals really don't care what the rest of 'the free world' think. They'll fabricate, lie and cheat their way into war if necessary.
What's worse a small terrorist organisation that brainwashes a few thousand people into doing violent, horrific acts or a corrupt government that attempts to force entire countries into war?
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Tiara I would advise that you don't attempt to argue with CP, he has unique and extremist views on pretty much everything and just enjoys arguing for the hell of it.
You described me pretty well there. :nod: :D
I have to admit that at the current time I am anti US. Mostly because Bush and pals really don't care what the rest of 'the free world' think. They'll fabricate, lie and cheat their way into war if necessary.
heheh, that's exactly what I like about them, but they still have a sizeable portion of the world with them. The terrorist in disguise is a good terrorist indeed. :D
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]Tiara I would advise that you don't attempt to argue with CP, he has unique and extremist views on pretty much everything and just enjoys arguing for the hell of it.[/color]
He's not unique :drevil:.
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Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]Tiara I would advise that you don't attempt to argue with CP, he has unique and extremist views on pretty much everything and just enjoys arguing for the hell of it.
I have to admit that at the current time I am anti US. Mostly because Bush and pals really don't care what the rest of 'the free world' think. They'll fabricate, lie and cheat their way into war if necessary.
What's worse a small terrorist organisation that brainwashes a few thousand people into doing violent, horrific acts or a corrupt government that attempts to force entire countries into war?
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I see, but still, I like to argue with ppl with a different conviction. It lets me see both sides. After that I can make a more fair judgement about the topic at hand. :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
And since the more capable the terrorist the higher its chances are of victory, that's a good thing.
Well, actually, the US is not the more capable terrorist state here. See, terrorism is not about killing, it's about instilling terror - and even though the US can, and have (or will, since it's not over yet) kill more people on their retaliation for the World Trade Center attacks, it won't come even close of instilling on their enemies the kind of terror that said enemies caused on the US population. They expected the retaliation, and were somewhat prepared for it, while the attacks against the US were a complete surprise.
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Originally posted by Styxx
Well, actually, the US is not the more capable terrorist state here. See, terrorism is not about killing, it's about instilling terror - and even though the US can, and have (or will, since it's not over yet) kill more people on their retaliation for the World Trade Center attacks, it won't come even close of instilling on their enemies the kind of terror that said enemies caused on the US population.
....................No. Terrorism is about one country deciding that they want to torture prisoners of war, and to avoid declaring a state of war and thus subjecting themselves to the Geneva Convention, they declare the enemy to be terrorists.
Some would call them Guerilla fighters. Freedom fighters even.
They are being persecuted by America for following their religious beliefs. The Nazi's tried to do **** like that and ended up being portrayed as the biggest psychopaths of all time.
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Originally posted by an0n
....................No. Terrorism is about one country deciding that they want to torture prisoners of war, and to avoid declaring a state of war and thus subjecting themselves to the Geneva Convention, they declare the enemy to be terrorists.
Some would call them Guerilla fighters. Freedom fighters even.
They are being persecuted by America for following their religious beliefs. The Nazi's tried to do **** like that and ended up being portrayed as the biggest psychopaths of all time.
Now you're mixing two very different things. Terrorism has as main objective coercion through terror. War has as main objective the defeat or conquest of the opponent. Now we'll argue if the World Trade Center attacks were an undeclared act of war or a terrorist action.
:p
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See, this is why I make no distinction between terrorists and soldiers.
Simple fact is, people are fighting, people are dying and they don't need to be.
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Well, actually, the US is not the more capable terrorist state here. See, terrorism is not about killing, it's about instilling terror - and even though the US can, and have (or will, since it's not over yet) kill more people on their retaliation for the World Trade Center attacks, it won't come even close of instilling on their enemies the kind of terror that said enemies caused on the US population. They expected the retaliation, and were somewhat prepared for it, while the attacks against the US were a complete surprise.
Well, I did not say that they were more capable (which may or may not be true), but rather that having the capability to kill more guys is an asset. The thing is though, this terror is somewhat short-lived, and after a few years of repeated "terror incidents," people tend to get adjusted to it. Terror can be used effectively, but it has to be done sparingly or it does not work as well (don't hit them often, but when you do, hit them hard). Rather, the other important thing that counts is the skillful use of propaganda; whichever party can convert men more effectively to their ideology (and thus gain followers) will also have an advantage.
Simple fact is, people are fighting, people are dying and they don't need to be.
Right, but then again, people are sitting in chairs and they don't need to be, but it is neither practical nor desirable to make any attempts to prevent it just for its own sake.
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True. But if you've got nothing better to do, you might as well be trying to stop a war.
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But all of us do have something better to do: math! forget about the world and join me in the search for multifactorial formulas! ;7 :D
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I would, but I've gotta go kill some Iraqi's.
*grabs a semi and walks off into the desert*
*likes irony*
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CP you do too much math, you're mind is too rational
according to you, killing 1000 people is the same as sitting on a chair..its not..you are assuming that no morality exists to tell us: killing is wrong..
I have to assume that killing, pillaging etc (all the things normally associated with evil) are bad. If you say that whoever is the most capable wins, you reject all the principles of fairness, honour, morality, justice etc
You have to have some sort of good/bad scale, to be able to gauge the actions of yourlself and those around you. You cant just say: killing is not good or bad, it just is
btw I was not saying anyone is absoulutly good or bad, I was saying that the 2 sides must be accepted to exist
The US is (for now) the most capable to impose themselves on the world. Does that mean they are the best? no. Again, those who kill ( and then present it as heroism) are not good. I understand that the world is not fair, but it should strive to be.
oh and BTW, the thing about dictators (whoever brought up the point about the Iraqis electing Saddam etc) is that they dont step down because you ask them to. you think bush would not do the same if he thought it would benefit him? The reason he doesnt to it is becuase he can gain more through the lies and illusions he sells the US public then through force. I cannot blame the Iraqi people for Saddam, or his actions. And they cant very well just go againts thousands to armed soldiers..
What you dont understand is that attacking a nation only strenghtens the people's love of the leader. I remeber in Yugoslavia (where I'm from, though I live in Canada) when NATO started bombing us, we didnt care about Milosevic's past transgretions (yugoslas hate him btw, he messed us up royally), we were united as a nation and that included the prez. If you want the change the current ruler, it has to come from within.
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Originally posted by Tiara
Then go watch the 9/11 attacks and tell me you found it funny.
But you know what? I had to watch that, over....and over...and over, for a very long time. Didn't you? I mean even though you aren't from the US I'm sure you watched thousands of Americans die. You didn't sit back and go "Weeeee, look at the little Yanks get blown to bits" But you watched it. But you'll decry this video, is it because they're snickering on camera?
People getting killed IS NOT funny. I don't care if you say everyone has its own likes and dislikes. Taking peoples lives and making fun of it is just wrong.
Now I don't recall anyone here thinking it's funny, least not in their posts. Now if you mean the servicemen in the video, um, they are at war remember? They didn't just decide to blow these people up.
"Hey Bob, what are you doing Friday?" "Nothing, why?" "Well I got an idea..." :rolleyes:
These people are at war.... lemme say that again, a war. Those people are going to die whether they are giggling or crying their eyes (would you rather they be crying?) The fact that they enjoy it is up to them.
Also remember who these people are, these aren't Tom, Dick, and Harry (or their Arab equivilant) out for a bite to eat.
So yes I do take a little morbid chuckle at guys in pickup trucks getting blown away by a plane god knows how high up. They lost any sympathy they had from me a long time ago, these are not innocent guys off the streets. If you wanna go to their funeral, knock yourself out, but I won't lose any sleep.
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Originally posted by Rictor
What you dont understand is that attacking a nation only strenghtens the people's love of the leader. I remeber in Yugoslavia (where I'm from, though I live in Canada) when NATO started bombing us, we didnt care about Milosevic's past transgretions (yugoslas hate him btw, he messed us up royally), we were united as a nation and that included the prez. If you want the change the current ruler, it has to come from within.
Hmmm Desert Storm......hmmmm countless Iraqi soldiers surrendering in order to get food....hmmmm nope doesn't fit a single bit of what you just said bout them loving Sadam more because of war.
I mind honestly ... does the average person think "Ya know ... if we just ignore those guys a liiiiiiiiiiittle bit longer ,... maybe they'll be nice. "
*shrug*
Then again everyone's entitled to their own opinion......... even the guys in the video giggling while dumping ammo.
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Originally posted by Rictor
CP you do too much math, you're mind is too rational
according to you, killing 1000 people is the same as sitting on a chair..its not..you are assuming that no morality exists to tell us: killing is wrong..
Well then, where outside our own beliefs tell us that killing is wrong. Cause as far as I know it's our own value on human life that tells us that.
I have to assume that killing, pillaging etc (all the things normally associated with evil) are bad. If you say that whoever is the most capable wins, you reject all the principles of fairness, honour, morality, justice etc
"All's fair in love and war" And it's true, there is no 3rd party morality that everyone agrees on. Might is right. People don't to war for causes they think are morally wrong. Your morals are no better or worse than anyone else.
You have to have some sort of good/bad scale, to be able to gauge the actions of yourlself and those around you. You cant just say: killing is not good or bad, it just is
No, but he can say "Killing my mom is bad, killing Osama Bin Laden is pretty good" And somewhere out there ol' Bin Laden is saying "Killing me is bad, killing his mom is good" Both are right, it's all relative.
btw I was not saying anyone is absoulutly good or bad, I was saying that the 2 sides must be accepted to exist
Well if they must be accepted, what are you arguing about? You accept that killing them is viewed as good by certain people.
The US is (for now) the most capable to impose themselves on the world. Does that mean they are the best? no.
Best at what? Imposing themselves? You just said they are. Treating everyone equally? I don't remember the US being required to babysit the world fairly. Whether they want to babysit or not is up to them.
Again, those who kill ( and then present it as heroism) are not good. I understand that the world is not fair, but it should strive to be.
I'm gonna go tell my grandfather that when he fought Nazis, he wasn't a hero, he was a bad bad man (because of course the opposite of good is bad, it can't be neutral)
oh and BTW, the thing about dictators (whoever brought up the point about the Iraqis electing Saddam etc) is that they dont step down because you ask them to. you think bush would not do the same if he thought it would benefit him? The reason he doesnt to it is becuase he can gain more through the lies and illusions he sells the US public then through force. I cannot blame the Iraqi people for Saddam, or his actions. And they cant very well just go againts thousands to armed soldiers..
Lemme ask you, what will Bush have in 10 years that Carter didn't get? Or Reagen, or Clinton?
To say "you think bush would not do the same if he thought it would benefit him? " is silly and pointless. I would do it if it benefited me, so would you, so would anyone. If being a dictator helped foward your own goals, whatever they may be, world peace, stable economy, army of the undead, whatever, you'd do it. So telling us Bush would is stupidly obvious.
And to restate, they are not trying to kill or otherwise hurt Iraqi citizens. Even in Bush's own little world, he is not behind his desk thinking of ways to kill them. He's not not after the people, he's after Saddam. If Saddam wants to use his own people as a shield, blame Saddam.
What you dont understand is that attacking a nation only strenghtens the people's love of the leader. I remeber in Yugoslavia (where I'm from, though I live in Canada) when NATO started bombing us, we didnt care about Milosevic's past transgretions (yugoslas hate him btw, he messed us up royally), we were united as a nation and that included the prez. If you want the change the current ruler, it has to come from within.
Ok? So they'll love him....until the US kills him. I think they can live with that, if the Iraqi people will miss Saddam's loving tender care, something is wrong somewhere.
Whew! I type a lot
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I gots no problems with people bombing the **** out of each other, as long as they're doing it for absolutely no reason and just testing their bombs.
Hiding behind morales and the defence of freedom is what pisses me off.
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This is bull****.
Death happens. It'll happen to all of us, it'll happen to everyone we know. Sometimes it happens in nasty ways. So?
I, for one, wouldn't be entirely surprised if I found myself on the wrong end of one of these guns one day- in fact, my surprise would largely be that I'd gotten to such heights. That doesn't mean I'm gonna get all weepy for every war casualty that ever happened, American, Taliban, Communist, or anything else- sometimes a valuable life is lost, and sometimes it's inconvenient, but I'm not gonna get morbid and shy away from death every time it happen. It's simply what happens when people get together. Treating it in some excessively formal way or hiding from the fact of death and screeching like a little old lady in tennis shoes whenever a hint of it is not treated like the most horrible event on the face of the ****ing Earth is just plain stupid. It's being intellectually and emotionally lazy, adopting morbid social conventions for the mere sake of being one of the crowd, and comes as a corollary to inability to accept one's own mortality.
Weapons are tools used primarily to kill people. If you can't get used to it, you need to grow up- you don't have to like weapons, but don't run around crying because they fulfill their ****ing purpose. Hell, you're in a forum for a game that, among other things, envisions weapons far deadlier than anything that exists now, and portrays death on a grand scale- maybe you should boycott the game.
Or do you only care for IMAGINARY weapons? Are you just into them as play-pretend? Well, I got news for you. This is what weapons are like, and this is a slightly padded sample of what war is like. It's nasty, it involves death, it's been the primary occupation of humans ever since we took up making tools. If you can't abide the reality, have the common sense to avoid the fiction as well, and go take up Tetris.
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[e]CP you do too much math, you're mind is too rational[/size]
why don't you do that too; then you will be able to think like me... ;7 :D
according to you, killing 1000 people is the same as sitting on a chair..its not..you are assuming that no morality exists to tell us: killing is wrong..
Well, suppose that my morality dictates that we not sit on chairs because it is evil to do so. How is it any more correct than your morality which says that killing people is bad? As Blue Lion said, there is no way to single out any set of ethics as better than any other, so none are absolutely true.
Now let us look at this from a more practical viewpoint. It really depends on who those 1000 are, but I think the 1000 we are talking about here are much the average people, which are in fairly great abundance. 1000 out of 6 billion (or even in the US alone, 270 million) is quite a small number, especially considering how fast they reproduce. If they are 1000 people that are harder to replace and/or more vital to the operation of the society, then it would be a bigger deal.
I have to assume that killing, pillaging etc (all the things normally associated with evil) are bad. If you say that whoever is the most capable wins, you reject all the principles of fairness, honour, morality, justice etc
Exactly, and this is my whole point. Those nations who do reject these things and free themselves of unnecessary constraints have a better chance at winning; you can have all these principles for yourself, but you will be overrun by those who do not but are equal to you in other respects. In the real world, given a choice between being an good and honorable loser or an unfair and evil winner, I would take the latter any day.
You have to have some sort of good/bad scale, to be able to gauge the actions of yourlself and those around you. You cant just say: killing is not good or bad, it just is
But that is the truth. Just trying to avoid it is not changing it, and you are not going to do as well in the practical world if you go by such things as absolute truths.
btw I was not saying anyone is absoulutly good or bad, I was saying that the 2 sides must be accepted to exist
eh, that means the same thing... :p
The US is (for now) the most capable to impose themselves on the world. Does that mean they are the best? no. Again, those who kill ( and then present it as heroism) are not good. I understand that the world is not fair, but it should strive to be.
Well, the harsh reality is that it is not, regardless of what it "should" do, and the unfair guys tend to be the ones coming out on top as evidenced by history (although they are good at making people think that they are actually fair :D).
Then again, there is the question about what exactly "fairness" is. One could say that sitting on chairs is unfair too, both to the chair and to the people who don't have chairs. :D
What you dont understand is that attacking a nation only strenghtens the people's love of the leader. I remeber in Yugoslavia (where I'm from, though I live in Canada) when NATO started bombing us, we didnt care about Milosevic's past transgretions (yugoslas hate him btw, he messed us up royally), we were united as a nation and that included the prez. If you want the change the current ruler, it has to come from within.
But that is perfectly fine, because the main objective is not to make people dislike him, but rather to just get him out of power there. It would be necessary to do that if Iraq was too powerful to attack but must be still eliminated, but that is not the case here.
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
But you know what? I had to watch that, over....and over...and over, for a very long time. Didn't you? I mean even though you aren't from the US I'm sure you watched thousands of Americans die. You didn't sit back and go "Weeeee, look at the little Yanks get blown to bits" But you watched it. But you'll decry this video, is it because they're snickering on camera?
Now I don't recall anyone here thinking it's funny, least not in their posts. Now if you mean the servicemen in the video, um, they are at war remember? They didn't just decide to blow these people up.
"Hey Bob, what are you doing Friday?" "Nothing, why?" "Well I got an idea..." :rolleyes:
These people are at war.... lemme say that again, a war. Those people are going to die whether they are giggling or crying their eyes (would you rather they be crying?) The fact that they enjoy it is up to them.
Also remember who these people are, these aren't Tom, Dick, and Harry (or their Arab equivilant) out for a bite to eat.
So yes I do take a little morbid chuckle at guys in pickup trucks getting blown away by a plane god knows how high up. They lost any sympathy they had from me a long time ago, these are not innocent guys off the streets. If you wanna go to their funeral, knock yourself out, but I won't lose any sleep.
Meh, watched that video once or twice, the rest was either outside or behind my comp. It was nasty but nothing compared to the thousands that starve to death because of the western greed. I was sorry it had to happen, but at times they were just begging for an attack.
Ever been to Africa? No? Well then don't say that 9/11 was worse. It WASN'T. I've been there, I've seen people starve with my very own eyes. They fight for survival EVERY day. I tried to help them, but alone I couldn't. In my opinion (NOTE: opinion here not fact) no life, especially those of the ignorant western ppl, are worth more then their lives.
And WTF? Have you ever read what I wrote? Ok, the funny was probably a bad word, but what I meant (and wrote several times) is that it shouldn't be used to be proud of or just show off.
Do that and you'll eventually have more terrorist attacks as they will hink you guys "enjoy" watching them die.
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Ever been to Africa? No? Well then don't say that 9/11 was worse. It WASN'T. I've been there, I've seen people starve with my very own eyes. They fight for survival EVERY day. I tried to help them, but alone I couldn't. In my opinion (NOTE: opinion here not fact) no life, especially those of the ignorant western ppl, are worth more then their lives.
Nobody is saying that it is worse; I cannot recall seeing that anywhere in the thread. It was just another event like any other. And who exactly are these people and why are they so important? Are they top-level scientific researchers or something that are in short supply?
Also, enough of this opinion bull; we want hard facts here. I might as well say that "it is my opinion that 2+2=5." :p :D
And WTF? Have you ever read what I wrote? Ok, the funny was probably a bad word, but what I meant (and wrote several times) is that it shouldn't be used to be proud of or just show off.
I already told you why that claim is pretty hypocritical. Why not? It is no better or worse than being proud of anything else.
Do that and you'll eventually have more terrorist attacks as they will hink you guys "enjoy" watching them die.
We do, just as they enjoy watching us die; simple as that. :D But the terrorist attacks will of course continue in the coming years regardless of what the US does; 9/11 was just an insignificant beginning.
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Originally posted by Tiara
Meh, watched that video once or twice, the rest was either outside or behind my comp. It was nasty but nothing compared to the thousands that starve to death because of the western greed. I was sorry it had to happen, but at times they were just begging for an attack.
So their lives are worth less? Because they're better off, it's not as bad if they die?
Ever been to Africa? No? Well then don't say that 9/11 was worse. It WASN'T. I've been there, I've seen people starve with my very own eyes. They fight for survival EVERY day. I tried to help them, but alone I couldn't. In my opinion (NOTE: opinion here not fact) no life, especially those of the ignorant western ppl, are worth more then their lives.
And I ask again, the lives of poor Africans are worth more because they're poor? This makes no sense
And WTF? Have you ever read what I wrote? Ok, the funny was probably a bad word, but what I meant (and wrote several times) is that it shouldn't be used to be proud of or just show off.
Why should they not be proud? It's what they do right? It's their job, I expect them to be proud of their work.
Do that and you'll eventually have more terrorist attacks as they will hink you guys "enjoy" watching them die.
Hey, if they wanna try again, I'd have no problem with the government doing what they do.
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Oh yum, another debate on morality ;7
I'll join in once I finish this stupid poetry work...
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
So their lives are worth less? Because they're better off, it's not as bad if they die?
And I ask again, the lives of poor Africans are worth more because they're poor? This makes no sense
Why should they not be proud? It's what they do right? It's their job, I expect them to be proud of their work.
Hey, if they wanna try again, I'd have no problem with the government doing what they do.
A). NO! I'm just saying that compared to the thousands that die because of hunger, a few fat, hamburger scavenging western people that died in this attack was virtually nothing. They have as much right to live as Americans.
I'm just saying that even thought they DIDN't deserve to die, it is nothing less then what happens in Africa. Only there it happens daily and nobody cares or gives a ****.
B). see A).
C). Is it their work to post it on boards? To show off to the children that still surf this board. NO! Thats propaganda. The soldiers can take pride in it though. I can understand that. But if you WANT to show off DON'T DO IT ON A GAMING FORUM. Thats my whole friggin' point :p
D). Huh?
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Originally posted by Tiara
C). Is it their work to post it on boards? To show off to the children that still surf this board. NO! Thats propaganda. The soldiers can take pride in it though. I can understand that. But if you WANT to show off DON'T DO IT ON A GAMING FORUM. Thats my whole friggin' point :p
Hmm... why not? It's not like people here aren't mature enough to be able to formulate their own opinions and thought, rather than simply submit to every little mumbling that's... well... mumbled.
If I, for example, said that I enjoy my work of butchering cows (which I don't do) for food and someone considered eating meat evil and vile is what I'm saying, submitting, transmitting... bad? Am I not supposed to say it? How do you measure these "levels" of badness? Is it all not the same?
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sitting in chairs is evil. everyone get out of your chairs. :D
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I'm just saying that there are plenty of other communities that would welcome this movie clip. But this is a gaming community for gods sake. (*drinks a cup o' Gods sake*)
And my little brother (6 years old) was surfing this board. Now I couldn't care less if he sees these things, but I do mind it if they are found in places that weren't designed for them. This isn't a political forum.
You could make one here though. Then people could enter at their own risk. I'd like to see that.
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Originally posted by Tiara
I'm just saying that there are plenty of other communities that would welcome this movie clip. But this is a gaming community for gods sake. (*drinks a cup o' Gods sake*)
And my little brother (6 years old) was surfing this board. Now I couldn't care less if he sees these things, but I do mind it if they are found in places that weren't designed for them. This isn't a political forum.
You could make one here though. Then people could enter at their own risk. I'd like to see that.
So you're not againest the clip because of what it is, you're againest it because you think it's in the wrong place?
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Well, the Hard Light forum is basically for anything that does not fit into the other forums, which includes politics, math, and almost anything else you can think of, so there is really no reason why it "does not belong here" unless the admins decide otherwise.
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Originally posted by Tiara
I'm just saying that there are plenty of other communities that would welcome this movie clip. But this is a gaming community for gods sake. (*drinks a cup o' Gods sake*)
And my little brother (6 years old) was surfing this board. Now I couldn't care less if he sees these things, but I do mind it if they are found in places that weren't designed for them. This isn't a political forum.
You could make one here though. Then people could enter at their own risk. I'd like to see that.
I can never seem to undestand people's obsession with making politics such a closed, rigid topic... why can't it be a nice open topic like ... say... pi... or cheese... or blue?
What's the difference in me saying "bush is a dumbass" to "brie cheese is disgusting" in terms of acceptability (of expressing my thoughts that is)?
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Well, I can't say I am either against it or not. I just don't like it that its posted here. So basically yes...
I won't watch it with pride or any good feeling though.
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Originally posted by Kamikaze
I can never seem to undestand people's obsession with making politics such a closed, rigid topic... why can't it be a nice open topic like ... say... pi... or cheese... or blue?
What's the difference in me saying "bush is a dumbass" to "brie cheese is disgusting" in terms of acceptability (of expressing my thoughts that is)?
Can I remind you that this is about killing. Not "just" politics. Cause as I earlier stated. I don't mind political discussions. But these visdeo clips should have a place of their own, or AT LEAST a warning in the topic name.
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Alright, we can add killing to the mix as well then. It is just another part of the universe like anything else; what's the deal with keeping it, to quote Kamikaze, "closed and rigid?"
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Granted HLP was based around games and art, but Hard Light as a sub forum has become more of a general what's on people's mind forum, while the games have drifted to the specialized to the freespace and other forums.
I'm not trying to sound patronizing, but hard light isn't really the strict game board that it may or may not have once been.
I think it's in a fine place, it's not anymore offensive than the news or any war movie I've ever seen and I'm still not quite sure what all the hullaballoo is over. :doubt:
EDIT: Wasn't it kinda aparent what it was when downloading?
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:blah:
Ok, since we will be stuck in this deadlock anyway, no use going on about it :p
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Originally posted by Tiara
Well, I can't say I am either against it or not. I just don't like it that its posted here. So basically yes...
I won't watch it with pride or any good feeling though.
It's a general discussion forum, it says "anything and everything" and no one said you had to well with pride at it. I don't. I'm not proud of it, there's no reason to, I didn't do anything.
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Originally posted by Tiara
:blah:
Ok, since we will be stuck in this deadlock anyway, no use going on about it :p
how does that differ from anything else we discuss? :D
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this is usually the part in the thread where it starts to get really good ;7
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Originally posted by Tiara
:blah:
Ok, since we will be stuck in this deadlock anyway, no use going on about it :p
not necessarily, you merely have to submit to our [insert-a-word-here-because-no-matter-how-much-I-edit-I-can't-get-the-abstraction-right] :p ;)
hmm.. maybe abstraction is the right word :p
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
how does that differ from anything else we discuss? :D
True... But still I won't go on about this cause it isn't even a topic with actual contents IMO...
Thats: In [size=20]MY[/size] Opinion.
You got that?:p
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Originally posted by Tiara
True... But still I won't go on about this cause it isn't even a topic with actual contents IMO...
Thats: In
[size=20]MY[/size]
Opinion.
You got that?:p
Oh I got it, I jusy think it's silly
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In my opinion, your opinion sucks. :D
on a side note, I cannot seem to prove that MF(1)=1. woe is me. :(
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Originally posted by CP5670
In my opinion, your opinion sucks. :D
Well, thats your opinion, but my opinion about your opinion, which states that you find that my opinion sucks, is that your opinion sucks too. :p
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Originally posted by CP5670
In my opinion, your opinion sucks. :D
on a side note, I cannot seem to prove that MF(1)=1. woe is me. :(
MF = 1 1x1 = 1. :ha: easy!
:nervous:
*runs*
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Well, thats your opinion, but my opinion about your opinion, which states that you find that my opinion sucks, is that your opinion sucks too.
But my opinion is that your opinion that my opinion that your opinion sucks also sucks. The opinions remain unaltered. :D
MF = 1 1x1 = 1. easy!
:D actually that is sort of close, since the MF function is defined so that MF(x+1)=0!1!2!3!...x!, so MF(1)=0!1!=1x1=1. but I need to prove it with the barnes product definition, since I have some other proof that depends on this result. In a nutshell, after some simplification, this boils down to proving that:
¥
å( (k + ½) log(1 + 1/k) – 1 ) = 1 – ½ log(2p)
k=1
the problem is that the zeta sums all diverge at 0, so I have not been able to find a sum for ½ log(2p) yet. :(
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hmmm odd.
Anyways ,... I think the whole arguement boils down to users need to take a little responcibity to what they READ. It is a wide open forum.
And honestly .... just wondering ... but as far as it's effect on a kid watching it,....what's worse about that video and half the games today ? ? Hell must games are more realisticlooking ya know ;)
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Originally posted by Warlock
And honestly .... just wondering ... but as far as it's effect on a kid watching it,....what's worse about that video and half the games today ? ? Hell must games are more realisticlooking ya know ;)
Because we can't dare tell our kids that we actually kill people. Since when do we tell our kids the truth?
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cp, what does the '!' mean in math? I end up reading it and reverting to my natural state of C++, and as such read zero-not-one-not-two-not-thre...x-not
..?
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I think....
5! = 5x4x3x2....
Then again, I dropped out of math in the 2nd grade
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Yep.
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Penguins. <<;;;
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Originally posted by Blue Lion
Because we can't dare tell our kids that we actually kill people. Since when do we tell our kids the truth?
Yup basically some ppl think that way.