Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: TopAce on March 01, 2003, 06:24:24 pm
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There is something makes me think:
Shivan technology is well above Terran and Vasudan. Despite somehow FS1 and FS2 campaigns cannot show this advantage well. For example four Terran fighters take down one Cain or Lilith, who were escorted by at least twenty fighters. Somehow every strike succeeds, when the Lucifer is not in the area. In dogfight, Shivans are easier to kill than Terrans or Vasudans. and in every mission, Shivans launch at least twenty or thirty fighters and they are wiped out by eight Terran fighters.
Is this called power?
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In FS2, the Shivans are supposed to be more or less weaker, except with the Sathani.
In FS1... hell, have you PLAYED the missions without shields? Ouch.
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*cough* gamplay *cough*
What would actually be kinda kool is if a camp went and played with the tables a bit, making all the shivan ships stronger, sheilds stronger and weapons stronger.
:devil: *gets ideas*
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You could always crank up the difficulty. :rolleyes:
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But its not the same! :p
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Originally posted by TopAce
Somehow every strike succeeds, when the Lucifer is not in the area...
You mean every strike which is lead by the almight Alpha One. Looking at the FS2 example, remember that the rebellion had been going quite badly for the Allies before Alpha One joined the fight - then, suddenly, the tide of war turned around. Strange coincidence, no?
Since one player-controlled ship is so much more effective then the AIs, the enemy needs overwhelming numbers to put up a fight. You're in an Erinyes - reckon you could take on six Shivan fighters? Course you do, anyday of the week. Therefore, the enemy would need odds of at least six to one to be an even match, but then the player has wingmen as well...
As for four Terran fighters taking down a Cain or Lilith... well, I pesonally think cruisers go down to easily, certainly the Fenris and Cains. The Lilith is actually quite a bugger to kill, and of course the Aeolus has lethal anti-fighter weapons. The Lilth and the Aeolus command a certain degree of respect, other cruisers do not. I just think that the average cruiser needs to be much harder to kill. Still killable with fighter weapons - that's part of what distinguishes a cruiser from bigger warships. But what if the Fenris had double the hitpoints? OK, even 20000 isn't much, but then the Leviathan would also need its hitpoints doubled... and the Aeolus... and the Cain... then they'd get the respect they deserved, methinks.
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Shivan technology is well above Terran and Vasudan. Despite somehow FS1 and FS2 campaigns cannot show this advantage well. For example four Terran fighters take down one Cain or Lilith, who were escorted by at least twenty fighters. Somehow every strike succeeds, when the Lucifer is not in the area. In dogfight, Shivans are easier to kill than Terrans or Vasudans. and in every mission, Shivans launch at least twenty or thirty fighters and they are wiped out by eight Terran fighters.
Is this called power?
I know exactly where you are coming from here; many of the Shivans are definitely easier to kill in general. The thing about the Shivans is that they have much more emphasis on anti-capital weapons but much less on anti-fighter weapons than the GTVA. For example, the Cain, Rakshasa and Lilith all have only one anti-fighter SAAA beam, as opposed to a minimum of two on the GTVA cruisers. They have the FighterKiller and Shivan Cluster launchers, but the FighterKiller is not all that effective and the Cluster is considerably weaker than the Piranha. The destroyers have the same problem; only two SAAAs for each of them, and not nearly as much flak as the Allied destroyers.
Although the Shivan ships are for the most part on par with their Terran or Vasudan counterparts, it is their weapons that really bring them down; they are just significantly weakened versions of the GTVA weapons. As for the beams, the SAAA fires twice as fast as the AAAf but only does a third of the damage per shot, and the SRed is quite pathetic even by GTVA standards. The only place where they really beat the GTVA hands-down is the larger anti-capital beams, namely the LRed and BFRed.
Since one player-controlled ship is so much more effective then the AIs, the enemy needs overwhelming numbers to put up a fight. You're in an Erinyes - reckon you could take on six Shivan fighters? Course you do, anyday of the week. Therefore, the enemy would need odds of at least six to one to be an even match, but then the player has wingmen as well...
Yes, I have had to deal with this issue quite often by designing missions, and the only way to present a reasonable challenge is to put in massive (and sometimes even unrealistic) numbers of enemy fighters, even if they have the same fighters and armaments as the player. They are actually quite good at long range, but in close-up dogfights, it seems that if you keep facing them, they just run circles around your ship and make no attempt to attack you.
What would actually be kinda kool is if a camp went and played with the tables a bit, making all the shivan ships stronger, sheilds stronger and weapons stronger.
I did exactly that in the PI mods (which originally started off as a set of game-balance mods) but it was not really necessary there as there may not even be any shivans in the campaign. :p :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
Yes, I have had to deal with this issue quite often by designing missions, and the only way to present a reasonable challenge is to put in massive (and sometimes even unrealistic) numbers of enemy fighters, even if they have the same fighters and armaments as the player. They are actually quite good at long range, but in close-up dogfights, it seems that if you keep facing them, they just run circles around your ship and make no attempt to attack you.
It is a bugger when you just end up going in circles, slowly shooting down your mara.
Also cap ships need a lot of heavy weightings to the enemy when bombers are involved. I've had one sobeck, a bomber wing, and a 2 fighter wings (already damaged) take on:
A diemos and 2 Aelous.
Then another diemos.
And then 2 shivan cruisers and a Moloch arrive.
Eventually a destroyer settles the dispute. If it wasnt for the wings acompanying, the Sobek wouldnt stand a chance. But with bombers to take out turrets and eventually the whole enemy ships, it makes the battle really unbalanced - hence the heavy compensation.
I doubt the AI bombers could be so useful. Just shows how effective alpha one actually is.
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Originally posted by beatspete
Eventually a destroyer settles the dispute. If it wasnt for the wings acompanying, the Sobek wouldnt stand a chance. But with bombers to take out turrets and eventually the whole enemy ships, it makes the battle really unbalanced - hence the heavy compensation.
Yeah, just look at Bearbaiting. A1 can take down three or four main turrets himself while the rest of the wing is prancing around getting eaten by the flak. Delta can't even shoot down the two stupid flak guns, for goodness sake.
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But what if Alpha was flying a fighters? Alpha One could take out the flak guns and Shivan fighters, leaving the bombers more or less free to get on with it - though of course there's no way the AI could be taught to bomb the beams at the correct angle to get a one hit kill. Even eight AI bombers would need all day to destroy all four beams :sigh:
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Last I played, the AI was so bad in that mission it got exactly two bombs off- the rest of the time they were too busy maneuvering. Moving targets...
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I somehow cannot ever get the AIs to fire Trebuchets; they don't use them at all if equipped with them. If they actually used those correctly, the flak guns and at least one beam would have been easily knocked out.
[But what if Alpha was flying a fighters? Alpha One could take out the flak guns and Shivan fighters, leaving the bombers more or less free to get on with it - though of course there's no way the AI could be taught to bomb the beams at the correct angle to get a one hit kill. Even eight AI bombers would need all day to destroy all four beams.
I tried playing a fighter role a few times in that mission, ignoring the Sathanas completely and going exclusively after fighters (you don't have any anti-fighter missiles but the Bakha is quite effective as a fighter). I was able to keep the fighters out very easily, while the wingmen were all ordered to go after one of the flak turrets and managed to damage it to 94% before the Sathanas warped out and smashed into the survivors. :rolleyes:
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AIs are amazingly effective as targets, I usually have mine engage enemy fighters in Bearbaiting just to keep the enemy fighters occupied, which leaves me free to go for the beams and flak turrets, although I've never gotten all 4 beams AND both flak turrets.
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I rarely used the AI pilots. Most of the time i was flying like a mad man in the battles, while the AI pilots where just flying around and sometimes shoot at something ( proberly on there fellow pilots ) but i mostly did it my self.
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No no no - never underestimate the destructive power of C-3-1! Instant Shivan kebab :nod:
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I have started on upgrading the Shivan TBL entry's for weapons, ships and also made some changes to the AI tbl. This is for FS1 FS2 comes later.
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Out of curiousity, is the AI something that can be source-coded?
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Yes, but I don't think it's something anyone wants to mess with right now..
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Generally the Ai is weak because they start maneuvering only after their shields fall, and this makes them easy targets, they begin evasive action later. This is the disadvantage of the Shivan fighters, when the Shivan Ai realizes his shields are down, well, it is late then, because every shiv fighters have the HP of 100, expect bombers.
They also ignore ANY other circumstances when following an order. For example this can be experienced when bombers attack a destroyer(Mission 6 : Slaying Ravana is a fine example). The Ai has orders to attack the destroyer, but doesn't move to engage a fighter that threatens his life, so is an easy target.
Nothing to comment to Bearbaiting ... only AI makes it difficult. I would be cusious how effective can two human players be in that mission. Otherwise I could destroy All four beams and flaks once, on Medium skill, just call in support before firing the first dual Helios bombs.
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Berbaiting would be extremely easy with one human bombing the Sathanas and another flying shotgun in a heavy fighter :nod:
And wouldn't that mission be easier with a set of Maxims? Bye bye Sathanas' flak guns and Demon's beam cannons...
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Berbaiting would be extremely easy with one human bombing the Sathanas and another flying shotgun in a heavy fighter :nod:
And wouldn't that mission be easier with a set of Maxims? Bye bye Sathanas' flak guns and Demon's beam cannons...
You cannot use the Maxim, you have a fix armament of the superior Mekhu, and Akhenton. Shotgun? Why exactly a heavy fighter?
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There is another thing makes me think:
Have a closer look at FS1 command briefing animations, you can discover that Sol can be reached from Deneb, not only from Delta Serpentis. As you know, the destruction of the Lucifer collapsed the jump node between Delta Serpentis and Earth. But why cannot the GTA reach their home from Deneb?
Look at FS1 CBs! You won't find that link between Sol and Deneb in fsnodemap.gif, so here:
http://www.volition-inc.com/fs/downloads/fsnodemap.gif
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FS1 was gay that way. Ignore it
you saw nothing in those CB-Ani's...
*flashs nueralizer*
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Quick answer ...
But how couldn't it be discovered by the creators? A critical error.
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Originally posted by TopAce
You cannot use the Maxim, you have a fix armament of the superior Mekhu, and Akhenton.
Yes, that was why I asked the question "wouldn't it be easier with Maxims?". I was asking people if they thought Maxims would improve one's chances in the mission, or the mission in general. But don't worry, your Fanboy-like knowledge of FS2 has dazzled us all, so it wasn't a complete washout :nod:
Shotgun? Why exactly a heavy fighter?
This is an english (well, American) expression which means that the guy in the fighter would be flying around providing cover for the actual mission-critical elements, in this case the bombers. I suggested the fighters be heavy due to the ammount of enemy fire in the mission - those feather-weight Serapis last about a minute.
But how couldn't it be discovered by the creators? A critical error.
Dude, you make a flawless game and then complain. And it's hardly critical to the game - did it really ruin your FS experience?
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Well freespace 1 was kinda annoying when I thought nothing of the Lucy blowing up the delta serp to sol n--- *flash*
Jeeze, these things get you higher than -- *flash*
ahhhh
:thepimp:
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But this kind of bug is quite front of the eye of everyone testing the mission.
But it is possible, 'contact loses with earth' came to mind shortly before the game came out onto the shelves of the shops, and nobody remembered there is a line between Deneb and Earth.
In addition: Typing error at Tech Database: SF Basilisk! Threat is treat.
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Dude, seriously - don't worry about it. All the bugs in FS were spotted years ago :)
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Did you know the bug:
After completing the main campaign(several times), sometimes all your awards and achievements go to holiday and won't come back.