Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: JR2000Z on March 02, 2003, 12:58:13 am
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This whole thing has been eating me for months and I want it to stop. First off my price range is $0-300. I'm willing to pay more if I have too. I currently have a Voodoo5 so I really have to upgrade. I'm thinking that I might as well go for the 128mb cards...
Ive been looking at the VisionTekGeforce4Ti series for a year now but VisionTek has been joined by ATI so I may_not_want to get that after all (?). On the otherside, VisionTek made some really nice cards for ATI - Their Visiontek 9500 looks like they have everything (even eight parrell pixelpipelines!) and only cost around $250-300. It seems too good to be true but there should be a flip-side somewhere. There had been rumors (http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MzM5) of VisionTek going down and if it does....
But Jesus...all I want is an affordible card that works very well with games and make em look great and not have to end up replacing it in the next two years. Any suggestions?
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Well, if you really have 300 bucks to buy a new card, go for this one.
(http://www.hinnavaatlus.ee/images/MSI_8872.jpg)
This is MSI GeForce 4 Ti4800 128MB DDRAM AGP 8x Video-In TV-Out. One of the best cards you can find.
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Ti4800? didn't even know such a thing existed until now... :p
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Wait a little. ATI has a new card coming out this month (or next). That should improve prices. :nod:
*me wants R350 * ;7
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The best makers of the GeForce range are currently Gainward and LeadTek, I believe. I myself own a LeadTek Ti4200 and am utterly pleased with it. You can get a GeForce Ti4800SE for about £153... which would be about $290 then. I myself, do not find any reason though, why save some extra bucks and get a Gainward Ti4600 Golden Sample, which is in very good quality atm for $240.
Of course, the newest ATI would be a good buy too, since it exceeds GeForce in most benchmarks, and has DX9 support
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Originally posted by CP5670
Ti4800? didn't even know such a thing existed until now... :p
Scary, isn't it? :p :D
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The Ti4800 is just Ti4200 with AGP 8x support, so it's actually slower than Ti4600 and Ti4400, only a bit faster than 4200.
I'd say go for some GF4Ti card, or Radeon 9500PRO/9700 (the 9700 doesn't have to be pro, it just has slower clockspeed, but 9500 non-pro is pretty slow, it has only 4 pixel pipelines and 128-bit memory bus).
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last i heard visiontek was going under so they may not be the best choice but do't belive me i'm not sure about it anyways
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Doesn't matter much does it? I mean as long as the card doesn't go wrong you can get the latest drivers from nVidia...
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Get a Ti42. Anything above is a waste of money according to 3D Mark - my comparison chart showed only a few percent improvement for people with 44 or 46s. I got my 42 at a computer fair for sixty squids, whatever that's worth in silver dollars...
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Get a Ti42. Anything above is a waste of money according to 3D Mark - my comparison chart showed only a few percent improvement for people with 44 or 46s. I got my 42 at a computer fair for sixty squids, whatever that's worth in silver dollars...
roughly $90 I think. that's a pretty ****-hot price for a Ti4200, though - almost half the bvest price i've found on the net (mainly scan.co.uk and dabs.com)
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I have a radeon 9700, it rules beyond anything.
boyah!!!!!!
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Originally posted by Ulundel
This is MSI GeForce 4 Ti4800 128MB DDRAM AGP 8x Video-In TV-Out. One of the best cards you can find.
One of the best... the best being the R9700
Radeon 9700 is the best you can buy nowadays... definately
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Heheh, but now we have GeForce FX :p ;7
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Radeon 9700 still 0wns
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But not as much as FX. Just read an article which also BTW compared it with R9700...
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and my VP pisses on all of them from a great height ;)
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Originally posted by wEvil
and my VP pisses on all of them from a great height ;)
oh yeah? play freespace on it :D and let's benchmark :D
ok, I would like that one anyway :doubt:
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aha, but does mental ray see it another CPU and use it for rendering? i think not :p
its adequate for games, but i dont play many these days at any rate :rolleyes:
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still, the insane prices for those pro cards cancel out any rendering benefits they offer; some of those cost more than entire top-level computer systems... :p
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Originally posted by CP5670
still, the insane prices for those pro cards cancel out any rendering benefits they offer; some of those cost more than entire top-level computer systems... :p
that's true if you don't use it for your work. it's not otherwise.
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i'd seriously contest that - have you seen how atrocious the display quality is on the quadro based pro cards?
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that's true if you don't use it for your work. it's not otherwise.
in other words, they are only good if you aren't paying for them, which is not really the case for most of us... :p (unless you have a really fat wallet)
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or you like being able to see where your hair guides are going intead of some garbled rubbish...
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Originally posted by Ulundel
But not as much as FX. Just read an article which also BTW compared it with R9700...
GF FX was a flop. The fastest model, FX5800 Ultra (I think) has 500MHz core and 500MHz DDR-memory (1000MHz effective), and is somewhat faster than Radeon 9700PRO with 325MHz core and 310MHz DDR-memory, 620MHz effective.
But, the FX5800 Ultra will never make it to retail. Only some people who pre-ordered it will get that loud card, with a noise comparable to vacuum cleaner. I'm not sure about the second fastest version, the non-ultra, which has 400MHz/400MHz (800MHz eff.) clocks, that will it get to retail. Nvidia now has NV31 and NV34 coming in few days, but unlike name suggests, they'll be much slower than Radeon 9700 series.
Edit: Check this page (http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20030127/geforce_fx-06.html) (mp3's at the bottom of the page) for the noise comparisons between the two cards.
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I personally couldn't care less about the noise, as my computer is already very loud and I have gotten used to it, but this thing does not appear to be any faster than the 9700 pro while costing slightly more. That is quite a letdown considering that the 9700 has been out for a long time already and its successor is going to come out soon. The FX would have been nice if it had actually come out on schedule, but it has been delayed for almost a year and in the meantime the competition has overtaken it.
or you like being able to see where your hair guides are going intead of some garbled rubbish...
I could see 2D things like that perfectly fine even on the 4mb video cards about six years ago... :p
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Originally posted by CP5670
in other words, they are only good if you aren't paying for them, which is not really the case for most of us... :p (unless you have a really fat wallet)
"says the guy who wants a giant useless truck" :rolleyes:
there's a thing, in the world, it's called "job". there's a job in the world that is called CGI artists. and there's even people doing this world that are called freelancers (well, they're called like that in french at least ). Then when you work as a freelancer, you use your own PC to get something called money. then after a while, you get some money, but you realize you take too much time working on a single job coz your PC does not process data fast enough, or anything else. then you pay upgrades for your Pc so you can achieve a job faster, then get more money faster. after some time, that actually balances the cost you've paid for that.
but of course that's basic life, and this is not explained in your math books.
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Yes, the first fans developed by nVidia were very noisy. 70 dB Max actually. But Gainward stuck another fan on it reducing the noise to 7 dB.
Anyway, I don't know which 3D benchmark did they use but in 1024x768, R9700 got less than 18000 points while FX got more than 26000.
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Originally posted by Ulundel
Yes, the first fans developed by nVidia were very noisy. 70 dB Max actually. But Gainward stuck another fan on it reducing the noise to 7 dB.
Anyway, I don't know which 3D benchmark did they use but in 1024x768, R9700 got less than 18000 points while FX got more than 26000.
That noise sure was a typo, right?
Also, R9700 can double FX's scores too, in some tests. Though it's sure that the ultra version is a bit faster in most tests.
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Nope, wasn't a typo. :p 70 dB
I still think FX is better cause, it's newer, more advanced (in many ways), gets higher scores and most importantly - it's GeForce ;)
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"says the guy who wants a giant useless truck" :rolleyes:
there's a thing, in the world, it's called "job". there's a job in the world that is called CGI artists. and there's even people doing this world that are called freelancers (well, they're called like that in french at least ). Then when you work as a freelancer, you use your own PC to get something called money. then after a while, you get some money, but you realize you take too much time working on a single job coz your PC does not process data fast enough, or anything else. then you pay upgrades for your Pc so you can achieve a job faster, then get more money faster. after some time, that actually balances the cost you've paid for that.
but of course that's basic life, and this is not explained in your math books.
you looking for another fight? happy to oblige. :D A similar reasoning can be applied to the game cards - become a professional gamer or even a game designer and use it for that - and just about anything out there can be used to make money if utilized appropriately, so that doesn't mean anything. Besides, if you are a freelance artist, wouldn't you be the same as a corporate artist except switching companies a lot and having only temporary contracts? So if a corporation hires you to do some CGI work for them, they would be the ones paying for whatever equipment you need since it is their work, maybe just loaning it to you for the time you are working on their thing but that's all you need it for. I have never really heard of any company that has its workers use their own equipment for company work. And that cost/profit thing is actually explained in most elementary math books (arithmetic) as an application. :p As for the trucks, they actually have a much longer operational lifespan than the average car, so you don't have to buy a new one every ten or so years or spend thousands on R&R, and the sleeper is also a plus point, as it allows you to forego hotel costs while still being much cheaper than an RV (I don't like travelling but will have to for these math conferences).
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difference with a freelance is that he uses his own gear, nobody will pay it for him.
As for the truck, it might last long, but:
1) you look way too weak to me to even steer this ( low blow, easy, yet pleasant :D )
2) I doubt you have an old abandonned stadium just next to your home so you can park that :D
3) the cost for insurrance and fuel would not make up for the econmy you might get by buying this ( economy that has yet to be proven, I've had a car for 11 years, and got rid of it not coz it wasn't working anymore - it still performed great, super5 owns - but coz I had no use for it anymore )
4) your truck can't even drive on raods, or expect the national guard to go after you in a matter of minutes :p
=> expensive, ugly, usless
-> stick with your math book dude ;)
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difference with a freelance is that he uses his own gear, nobody will pay it for him.
so um, what is the point of being one? how exactly are you going to make money unless someone enlists you to do their work? (in which case they will usually loan you whatever stuff)
As for the truck, it might last long, but:
1) you look way too weak to me to even steer this ( low blow, easy, yet pleasant :D )
already answered this before; they have powered steering, sorry. :D
2) I doubt you have an old abandonned stadium just next to your home so you can park that :D
answered this one too; go find the other post. :p
3) the cost for insurrance and fuel would not make up for the econmy you might get by buying this ( economy that has yet to be proven, I've had a car for 11 years, and got rid of it not coz it wasn't working anymore - it still performed great, super5 owns - but coz I had no use for it anymore )
well, I don't think my parents have used any cars that have outlived 11 years; they can still work, but you need to constantly dump money into them for replacement parts and it frequently gets to the point where it is cheaper to buy a new one than to fix an existing one.
4) your truck can't even drive on raods, or expect the national guard to go after you in a matter of minutes :p
:wtf: perhaps they cannot drive on "raods," but they can certainly go on roads, or else why would anyone bother building them? :p :D
=> expensive, ugly, usless
-> stick with your math book dude ;)
expensive? perhaps in the short run. ugly? far better looking than any car out there, although not quite as good as the construction trucks. the last is a matter of definition.
actually, come to think of it, the math books have very similar characteristics as far as this goes. :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
so um, what is the point of being one? how exactly are you going to make money unless someone enlists you to do their work? (in which case they will usually loan you whatever stuff)
you're talking about something you don't know about, and I don't feel like explaining, sorry
already answered this before; they have powered steering, sorry. :D
still, I wanna see you park that :p
answered this one too; go find the other post. :p
don't feel like searching
well, I don't think my parents have used any cars that have outlived 11 years; they can still work, but you need to constantly dump money into them for replacement parts and it frequently gets to the point where it is cheaper to buy a new one than to fix an existing one.
one word: american cars. try a good car someday, one that doesn't sip 15 galons every 100km :p But:You haven't replied to my andswer about the long run. Stuck? check the price for a car and a truck, then check insurences costs and maintenance costs for both. you'll cry, man.
:wtf: perhaps they cannot drive on "raods," but they can certainly go on roads, or else why would anyone bother building them? :p :D
being smartass and playing on a typo? quite disapointing don't you think? I expected better :D. Last time I remember, you posted a pic of one of those giant trucks for building sites, and no, those things with tires bigger than a car are not allowed to go on public ways, go figure...
expensive? perhaps in the short run. ugly? far better looking than any car out there, although not quite as good as the construction trucks. the last is a matter of definition.
every time before you've talked about construction trucks, changing like that will sure lead to misunderstandings :rolleyes:. Judging that a vehicle is better looking than one another is purely subjective. that said, you're comparing vehicles that have had designers working on them for monthes to vehicles that have engineers working on them, and don't... what the hell am I talking about? I don't give a damn about all that! point is don't judge a videocard "useless" because YOU have no point into buying one.
actually, come to think of it, the math books have very similar characteristics as far as this goes. :D
huh? I've seen nothing in this -once again- pointless argument that shows anything like that.
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Originally posted by Ulundel
Nope, wasn't a typo. :p 70 dB
I know that 70dB wasn't. But that 7dB sure was, a whisper is around 30 dB, and your watch's (not that huge clock on the wall) ticking is 10dB. That Gainward's 7dB is impossibility, I heard that they've managed to lower it by 5dB, so that it'd be 65dB. Though it is good that it doesn't spin anymore in 2D mode, but the 3d would still be way too loud.
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Originally posted by Redfang
I know that 70dB wasn't. But that 7dB sure was, a whisper is around 30 dB, and your watch's (not that huge clock on the wall) ticking is 10dB. That Gainward's 7dB is impossibility, I heard that they've managed to lower it by 5dB, so that it'd be 65dB. Though it is good that it doesn't spin anymore in 2D mode, but the 3d would still be way too loud.
It's probably a passive cooling solution. And it's no typo or anything. It's in the press release (http://www.gainward.se/news/030130.pdf) (PDF-format)
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Originally posted by CP5670
I could see 2D things like that perfectly fine even on the 4mb video cards about six years ago... :p
Well, that just highlighted that you havent done your homework.
Hair guides are splines used to style CG hair. Of course, you need a rather precise graphics card, escpecially when you want render hairs displayed, which are some kind of voxel/sprite thing.
Not to mention the fact gaming cards have trouble with window refresh, NURBS surface sticthing, texture stretching... need I go on?
And cars...bah. I'd personally like a tank so i could drive over people who held up the traffic.
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you are really asking for it venom, aren't you? :D
you're talking about something you don't know about, and I don't feel like explaining, sorry
This is a pretty dumb argument; I could write that in everywhere in my posts as well and it would work fine. :p just tell me, what are the benefits in being an artist who has to buy his own materials? Unlike conventional art you cannot make much money by directly selling CGI stuff to the general public; you have to work for some company, if only very temporarily, to do their work. I think you would make less money in this case (since the only companies that tell you to get your own equipment would be very small ones that would not pay as much) but have more freedom on what you want to do, but cannot really think of anything else.
still, I wanna see you park that
once again, go find the older post on the same topic.
one word: american cars. try a good car someday, one that doesn't sip 15 galons every 100km But:You haven't replied to my andswer about the long run. Stuck? check the price for a car and a truck, then check insurences costs and maintenance costs for both. you'll cry, man.
Actually, they were/are all japanese cars, and I have already done that. The average price (for a new one) is around twice that of a car, insurance costs are very slightly higher, and maintenance costs are much lower since these things are designed to take much more punishment and generally last around three times longer without needing any major repairs.
being smartass and playing on a typo? quite disapointing don't you think? I expected better . Last time I remember, you posted a pic of one of those giant trucks for building sites, and no, those things with tires bigger than a car are not allowed to go on public ways, go figure...
hey it's true, nothing can drive on raods, sorry man. :D Besides, I'm only returning the favor; as in your own words, it is a "low blow, easy, yet pleasant." :D And I am not talking about the ultrahauler trucks here (which are nice but too expensive for me) but rather the highway trucks, which can certainly go on roads.
every time before you've talked about construction trucks, changing like that will sure lead to misunderstandings . Judging that a vehicle is better looking than one another is purely subjective. that said, you're comparing vehicles that have had designers working on them for monthes to vehicles that have engineers working on them, and don't... what the hell am I talking about? I don't give a damn about all that! point is don't judge a videocard "useless" because YOU have no point into buying one.
No, like I said, I have been talking about highway trucks this whole time; I like construction trucks, but those are indeed too expensive for me. You are quite right about the looks, but seeing as you are the one who started to complain about "ugliness," I wouldn't really be talking there. :p Then it looks like you got drunk or something, as the next two sentences made no sense whatsoever. :D As for the last part, anything can be useful for some purpose, so there is no absolute usefulness; however, in this case, seeing as this is a forum for FS/FS2, which are games, so the one thing that is common to most of the people that come here is an interest in games. Since these pro cards, despite the prices that are ten times higher, are pretty mediocre with games, they are not useful in the context of this particular discussion; after all the original post was asking about cards that play games well. unless of course you have two computers, one with a game card and one with a pro card, but I think we are talking about one or the other here.
huh? I've seen nothing in this -once again- pointless argument that shows anything like that.
guess you got drunk again; "shows anything like that?" :wtf: What I meant was that the math books are also expensive in the short term and the stuff inside might look ugly at first glance, but learning the stuff pays off later and once you start to understand it, little else can compare. :D
Hair guides are splines used to style CG hair. Of course, you need a rather precise graphics card, escpecially when you want render hairs displayed, which are some kind of voxel/sprite thing.
Wait, but if they are displayed onscreen, they just come out as pixels in the end, right? Aren't all the cards more or less equally adept at finishing the rendering job but they do it at different speeds and to a lesser extent, colors? The main advantage I can see is that they are faster with high-detail image rendering, like CGI art, but there is the tradeoff in game performance and price.
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Originally posted by CP5670
you are really asking for it venom, aren't you? :D
no, I don't, proof being I'll stop there :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
Wait, but if they are displayed onscreen, they just come out as pixels in the end, right? Aren't all the cards more or less equally adept at finishing the rendering job but they do it at different speeds and to a lesser extent, colors? The main advantage I can see is that they are faster with high-detail image rendering, like CGI art, but there is the tradeoff in game performance and price.
You'll also find the actual designs tend to be more well thought-out, robust and the colour balances are far more accurate. Of course with most modern IP-sharing the differences are less than they were, but I can certainly tell the difference between a scene on a firegl8800, vp760 and a quadro2.
But then again not being an artist you wouldn't have a clue about that, would you? ;)