Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Galemp on March 08, 2003, 01:19:10 am
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Zee ultimate in tactical showdowns! Who deserves to reign as the supreme admiral?!
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/fsport/bosch.gif)VS(http://www.starwars.jp/character/image/admiral_thrawn.jpg)
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Well, assuming they go mano-a-mano.. :)
Bosch is a tactical Admiral with strategic goals. (He is best at doing things like sneaky evasive maneuvers and defeating larger forces in battle, but it's all part of his Secret Plan.) Thrawn is a strategic Admiral with tactical goals. (He commands from the rear, but his goals are specific - kill Luke Skywalker, destroy this installation, et cetera.)
If you put them in direct confrontation, with each in their own flagship, Bosch has the advantage, being in his element - one on one combat. Thrawn can very well counter some of his moves, but in the end Bosch has the advantage.
The Iceni: Faster, smaller, more powerful anti-cap wise, heavily armored, but with crappy anti-fighter defense. Not equipped with hangar bay.
The ISDII: Slow, large, weaker anti-cap wise (except, maybe, at medium/very close ranges), heavily armored, and with relatively effective anti fighter defense. Hangar bay is loaded with stuff.
That's how it would end up, don't you think? The ISD probably couldn't really hurt the Iceni in a cap versus cap fight, with the Iceni's beams able to hit from long range.. but with hardly any AAAfs or flak, mostly Terran Turrets that could no way hit a TIE and no fighter protection of its own, the Iceni would be battered by TIEs just as badly as the ISD gets smacked by BGreens. It's be a draw.
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Funny hat vs. glowing eyes... well, the freaky dude could steal Bosch's hat, thus acquiring the power of both and at the same time incapacitating his opponent, but with the help of a switchblade or sharpened spoon (prison-style) Bosch could do just the reverse and score a critical victory. Assuming the balance of power remains as it is, it'd really be a stalemate.
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Bosch was only behind ETAK and knowing pretty much everything the GTVA did as soon as they did or faster. He wasn't really a mastermind/brilliant or anything, at least compared to thrawn, who re-invented villians for Star Wars and brought about tactics and stuff that made for some of the best reading through the whole series of books.
Thrawn :nod:
although we didn't get to see much of Bosch really.
EDIT: Well with the poll, The Empire would 0wn the NTF anyday. BGreens don't mean anything against 100 Turbolaser Banks and Tie Bombers. Don't forget, ISD's have shield generators.
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Originally posted by Alikchi
That's how it would end up, don't you think? The ISD probably couldn't really hurt the Iceni in a cap versus cap fight, with the Iceni's beams able to hit from long range.. but with hardly any AAAfs or flak, mostly Terran Turrets that could no way hit a TIE and no fighter protection of its own, the Iceni would be battered by TIEs just as badly as the ISD gets smacked by BGreens. It's be a draw.
I dunno. A few wings of TIE bombers would easily take out those turrets. ISDs, on the other hand, have hundreds of turbolasers and ion cannons. The Iceni would be crippled in a head-on fight.
Bosch's best bets are negotiation, or escape. He managed to feed off the fears and insecurities of the NTF and have piles of warships and their crew defect. The Empire has many of the same vices, and Thrawn is always eager to study his enemy.
Bosch also manages to escape from almost any situation. He'd probably find a way to disable the ISD's tractor beams.
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Wow learned alot here. I guess they would have to fight it out for us to see.
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Thrawn would kick the crap out of Bosch. Thrawn would have have been too smart to end up in a one on one engagement. remember that the thing about Thrawn is that he was brilliant, ruthless, and knew his own limits. He played his strengths and knew his weaknesses. He would have gotten Bosch to commit to a massive engagement and would have used the clone of Jedi Master Jorus C'Boath to coordinate his attacks, the Iceni would have fallen and the NTF would have lost heart, they'd have been destroyed. Unless the New Republic showed up and then it would have been "enemy of my enemy", what a mistake they would have made.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
BGreens don't mean anything against 100 Turbolaser Banks and Tie Bombers. Don't forget, ISD's have shield generators.
But don't forget that tie bombers don't have shields and well basically suck. Assult gunboats, missile boats and tie defenders are the way to go.:nod:
Thrawn would win.:D
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Originally posted by ShadowWolf_IH
Thrawn would kick the crap out of Bosch. Thrawn would have have been too smart to end up in a one on one engagement. remember that the thing about Thrawn is that he was brilliant, ruthless, and knew his own limits. He played his strengths and knew his weaknesses. He would have gotten Bosch to commit to a massive engagement and would have used the clone of Jedi Master Jorus C'Boath to coordinate his attacks, the Iceni would have fallen and the NTF would have lost heart, they'd have been destroyed. Unless the New Republic showed up and then it would have been "enemy of my enemy", what a mistake they would have made.
yeah, but just to say that bosh probably didn't end up admiral just because he was the son of some governor :p
I doubt Bosh is stupid or anything.
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Originally posted by venom2506
I doubt Bosh is stupid or anything.
He did choose to hang out with Shivans, I doubt that was listed amongthe GTVA's brightest of moves.
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Thrawn. But I must admit, the real "actors" they chose for Thrawn and Mara Jade don't really suit what I had pictured in my mind. Thrawn isn't supposed to be pudgy! And Mara (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/marajadeskywalker/bts.html)... I had pictured her with hair done more like Kira Nerys (sp?) from DS9 - sort of. Whatevers.
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Yeah, I noticed that.
Those pictures came from the now dead Star Wars CCG (dunno if anyone here ever played) but the Jade Actor was ok (Shannon Baksa) but she looks kinda.. bleh in a few pictures though.
For Jade, I prefer one page out of the Essential Chronology Book, the one covering Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future.
As for Thrawn, ACK!. Totally wrong.
Some of the other ones they used for the card game were horrible too.. like Michael A. Stackpole played Corran.. he has like a Whiteman's (Receding hairline) Afro! and is kinda pudgy at that. Not What I had pegged as corran at all.
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Thrawn, I guess...
But imagine the power they would have if they joined forces...
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What we need is a Vong vs. Shivan match
:drevil:
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Or a Vasudan vs. Calamari match. :D
The Vasudans wuv fish, though...that could cause problems. :doubt:
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Well... if we had a little more help with the Star Wars TC... ;)
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
What we need is a Vong vs. Shivan match
:drevil:
With Humanity's luck .... they'd mate :wtf:
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Thrawn would win, as he has the Scimitar assault bombers, but then Zaarin would woop him because he had the Tie Defenders.
And Vasudans vs Protoss would be great.
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Originally posted by Warlock
With Humanity's luck .... they'd mate :wtf:
:wtf: :ick That's just wrong...
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problem is, for all we know, one turbolaser could destroy the iceni, or one terranturret#weak could take out an ISD. there's no way to know because we've never seen it before and neither give measurements for there weapons yield.
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Actually... (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/isd.html#weaponry-bd0) :drevil:
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During its hunt for the Millennium Falcon, the star destroyer Avenger used its minor guns in the brim trench and on the hull to clearing asteroids in its path [TESB]. These observations indicate a lower limit on the energy delivered by a single blast from one of the smallest turbolasers. These were probably not full-power shots, but were merely intense enough to remove the asteroids with minimal trouble and waste. The asteroids were on the order of several meters to several dozens of metres in diameter, and composed chiefly of iron and similar metals. Realistically, the asteroid composition may have been silicate (eg. like granite or basalt) or dominated by iron-like metals.
The energy delivered by the turbolaser shot must raise the asteroid material from the initial temperature to the melting temperature (Tf), then supply the latent heat of fusion (Lf) to change the state frm solid to liquid, and then raise the temperature to a boiling point (Tv) and provide a latent heat of vaporisation (Lv). The boiling point is pressure-sensitive; in principle it might be close to the melting point because vaporisation of the exterior of the asteroid occurs in a nearly perfect vacuum.
Solid iron has a density 7870 kg/m³ and a heat capacity of 449 J/kg/K near room temperature, latent heat of fusion Lf=2.67x105 J/kg and Tf=1811K. The heat capacity increases with temperature, but we can use these figures to determine a lower limit on the amount of energy needed to melt a ball of iron in space. With a diameter of 10m, starting from 0°C (arbitrarily chosen, though the real initial temperature was probably lower) the energy required to melt an iron asteroid is > 3.94 TJ. This whole quantity of energy is delivered to the object within the duration of the turbolaser bolt, no more than a fifth of a second.
Asteroid diameters of 5m - 20m have been suggested [Stephen Comblidge, Peter Chung: private correspondence and newsgroup contributions] implying minimum melt energies of 0.49 TJ to 32 TJ respectively. This is comparable to the energy yield of a kiloton of TNT, 1 kt = 4.2 TJ. For further comparison, a small and primitive fission bomb might have an explosive yield of 20kt.
The latent energy of vaporisation may alone exceed the amount of energy needed to melt the body, let alone the amount needed to raise its temperature to the boiling point. In terrestrial conditions, the latent heat of vaporisation of a 10m diameter iron ball is approximately 25.8 TJ. Estimates of the melting plus vaporisation energy [by Eric Vandersall] are 32TJ and 260TJ respectively for 20m and 40m diameter asteroids at an initial temperature of about 206K. These are uncertain as detailed values, since the heating process process is non-equilibrium, supersonic and takes place in vacuo. Nevertheless, these results are plausibly indicative order-of-magnitude estimates. Therefore, considering the maximum observed fire rate of at least 1/s [in the asteroid field and in battles throughout the saga] we can estimate a lower limit on the power of each of the small anti-fighter point-defence cannons as between 250TW and 2000TW. The sixty-four visibly large dorsal heavy cannons must have considerably greater power than even this lower limit.
This guy has too much time on his hands.
But, if we consider that a BGreen is more powerful than the weaponry on the Lucifer, and that the Lucifer was able to annihilate entire cities from orbit, that's one heck of a weapon.
Additionally, shields don't block beam cannons.
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Yeah that whole section of theforce.net is about people with too much time.
It kinda ruins star wars in how they try to rationalize star wars (:doubt: ) but its useful in nerd stuff :D
as for shields and beams, I heard somewhere that beams going through shields was actually a glitch in the game. *shrugs*I admit, it'd be kinda different.. how we view beams and all.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
For Jade, I prefer one page out of the Essential Chronology Book, the one covering Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future.
The gal on Spectre of the Past is Leia, so you must mean only Vision of the Future. But there she looks like a 18-yr old Mara Jade, not someone who's in her 30-40's. Whatever.
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Some of the other ones they used for the card game were horrible too.. like Michael A. Stackpole played Corran.. he has like a Whiteman's (Receding hairline) Afro! and is kinda pudgy at that. Not What I had pegged as corran at all.
Argh - they were just being nice to him, but Stackpole was definitely all wrong for Corran. Corran should be more of a stark black haired George Clooney, but take off a dozen years or so.
Originally posted by Knight Templar
as for shields and beams, I heard somewhere that beams going through shields was actually a glitch in the game. *shrugs*I admit, it'd be kinda different.. how we view beams and all.
Glitch? Eh? Dig up that reference, will ya?
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Bosch would win, depending on if he had thr right amount of battlegroup size which is usually small anyways. This is his area of expertice.
Lets face it. Admril Bosch was destined for his position as an Admril of leader of the NTF. No-one can stand in his way. The GTVA couldn't stop him what malkes you think Thrawl will have any affect on him.
All of the GTVA was on look out for him and Bosch was always 1 step ahead.....Always predicting his enemies moves as they were rehersed.
Sorry guys. Admril Bosch will best any admril in comand of a starship. :eek2:
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Originally posted by SlipStream
.....Always predicting his enemies moves as they were rehersed.
Funny, that's exactly what made Thrawn so cool... and so lethal. :D
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You are missing the most important point!
Thrawn isn't Human and yet he managed to become a Grand Admiral in the xenophobic empire. This proves that he is the greatest admiral of all time.
Oh, and he looks far more evil than Bosch.
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But Bosch is so dark and mysterious... even when we see him face to face (in the head animation) he's shadowy. For all we know he could have two-inch fangs.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
EDIT: Well with the poll, The Empire would 0wn the NTF anyday. BGreens don't mean anything against 100 Turbolaser Banks and Tie Bombers. Don't forget, ISD's have shield generators.
UNwillingly wandering into the world of cross-universing: Pre 3.5 beams can penetrate shields.
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Bosch has the shivans ;7
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Originally posted by Sandwich
The gal on Spectre of the Past is Leia, so you must mean only Vision of the Future. But there she looks like a 18-yr old Mara Jade, not someone who's in her 30-40's. Whatever.
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Glitch? Eh? Dig up that reference, will ya?
I meant in the essential chronology. Granted its not in color I don't think, but it looks the best to me.
and um I think I heard it by someone from here but on the VWBB a few weeks ago. I'll go look for it.
Originally posted by Stunaep
UNwillingly wandering into the world of cross-universing: Pre 3.5 beams can penetrate shields.
Probably shoulda put "for all we know" at the beggining.. Either way, at the height of the NTF's power, they had one fleet of ships. At the Height of thrawns power, he had the entire imperial fleet (which at one time had at least 25,000 ISD's in it) along with the Katana fleet and much more.
Thrawn is just as good, if not better than Bosch IMO, and with their fleet sizes, there isn't much way Bosch could win.
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Well, if you want to drag in the entire Imperial fleet... why not a few Shivans as well? Let's see how much that ISD likes four BFReds.
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But the arguement is Admiral Thrawn and the Galactic Empire vs Bosch and the Neo-Terran Front. You asked for it yourself. :p
still it would be those ISD's :p
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Buddies... There are quite a few factors that would ensure a total Thrawn victory
a) He has a vastly superior ship, the ISD1 Chimaera at his command. This thing has 60 Ion cannons and 60 Turbolasers at its command for a total of 120 weapons. The Iceni has less than 30 weapons on it. Furthermore, the Chimaera has shields capable of withstanding multipe blasts with the yeild of hundreds of gigatons. The Episode II ICS states that the MEDIUM TURBOLASER on the Acclamator TRANSPORT SHIP is 200 Gigatons per shot. The main guns on the ISD, a battlecruiser will obviously be much higher than 200GT per shot and according to official and cannon evidence of the movies, turbolasers can shoot once every second or so. Lets not forget that an ISD can perform a Base Delta Zero strike and reduce the surface of a planet to molten slag. The Sathanas has 1,000,000 hitpoints, or 1600GT, which means an ISD will kill it in 8 hits. The FS1 tech room says Harbinger bombs are 5GT or 5000MT. They do 3200 damage (from ships.tbl), meaning 1 damage point is 1.6MT. A BFRed is rated at 2100 damage points. Beams do this damage around every 1/6 of a second, meaning the BFRed does 12,600 per second or 20.2GT. A Sathanas has 4 BFReds, giving it a 80.8GT per second volley with all four guns (560GT for the 7 second duration). Even if they could penetrate shields, beams would do only superficial damage to the ISD's hull.
Plus, GTVA ships can only target vessels at maximum 10km. SW ships can hit you from over 50,000km away.
b)TIE fighters and bombers are 1000 times faster than FS fighters and they would perform strafing runs so fast that AAA would have trouble targeting them. They can also swarm the Iceni with overwheming numbers. TIE lasers are in the kilotonnage range and are vastly superior to FS fighter lasers.
c)The ISD's hyperspace capabilities allows it to appear at will in any GTVA system regardless of jump nodes and it can use its vastly superior sensors to detect ships preparing for an ambush across a solar system. A mere nebula disrupted the sensors on the GTVA fleet. In the book Star by Star, the Falcon's, a civilian ship, sensors were able to track the happenings of a battle in a nearby system with no difficulty at all.
d)If we bring in the Shivans, they still can't compare to the Empire. A fleet of 80 Sathanases was considered incredulously huge by GTVA tacticians. The pathetic New Republic was easily able to bring 900 ships to attack the YV fleet at Reecee.
c)maneuverability: FS ships are some of the slowest in Si-Fi. They for some odd reason have a finite speed, not acceleration and this speed is quite slow, below escape velocity (around 216 km/h = 60m/s like the HercII). Even if we replace max speed with max acceleration in Gs, its still pales in comparison with SW or even real life (FS ships are slower than the modern space shuttle). SW capships, according to the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections, can reach speeds of about 16,000 km/h in atmospheres and about 3,500G acceleration in space. Freespace capships have shown to be very sluggish in their maneuvers. While the ISD is slightly sluggish by SW standards, Thrawn would literally fly circles around Bosch and I bet while the bridge crew was dancing to "Can't touch this" too.
I conclude that Thrawn would thrououghly whip Bocsh and the entire Shivan race's booty
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Although I agree with you, where the hell did you get your hull stats for FS ships and Weapons stats for the BFRed? :wtf:
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FFS!!!
Why don't we match skill with skill?!?!?!
Don't take ships,etc into the arguments, just tactical skill.
Give both sides the same ships, the same weapons, same everything, who would win?
I'd have to saw Thrawn... Thrawn was a complete tactical genius. He knew what he wanted(to win) and he knew how to do it. Thrawn would have taken over the Galaxy if it wasn't for Pellaeon backstabbing him. In the books, Thrawn is practically invincible... he won even with vasty outnumbered forces if I remember correctly.
And Bosch? Pffft... You have NO evidence of ANY tactical genius. Throwing himself into slavery of the shivans? Haha! Sure, he ran a fleet... but what did he do? He always ran away! Wimp...
Thrawn ownz j00! Period.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Although I agree with you, where the hell did you get your hull stats for FS ships and Weapons stats for the BFRed? :wtf:
He got it by using the stupid Tech Room stats to approximate the damage. Of course, the Tech Room disagrees with itself over how much one point of damage is. Case in point: MX-50 vs. Harbinger
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bosch...
not even thrawn can resist the power of spacecrack™ and bosch beer™
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
Buddies... There are quite a few factors that would ensure a total Thrawn victory
*snip*
I guess you can't compete with 10,000 years of space technology.
Okay then! Bosch vs. Thrawn... in a barroom brawl. :p
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Bosch has Laser Beam Eyes. No contest.
Zap zap.
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Barroom brawl? It all depends on wether they are serving Bosch Beer™ or not :rolleyes:
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Thrawn would rape Bosch so fast it's not even funny.
Sure FS has gigaton rated beam cannon, but the Empire has turbolasers that put out 200GT in a shot. And on and ISD there is about 60 of those bad boys.
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Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw
FFS!!!
Why don't we match skill with skill?!?!?!
Don't take ships,etc into the arguments, just tactical skill.
Give both sides the same ships, the same weapons, same everything, who would win?
I'd have to saw Thrawn... Thrawn was a complete tactical genius. He knew what he wanted(to win) and he knew how to do it. Thrawn would have taken over the Galaxy if it wasn't for Pellaeon backstabbing him. In the books, Thrawn is practically invincible... he won even with vasty outnumbered forces if I remember correctly.
Thrawn ownz j00! Period.
Thrawn was such a badass that he could study his enemy's art and come up with a plan to defeat them.
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Maybe some pre-emptive manouvering like sabotage... NTF should be quite good at that by now :p
And Bosch can ship contaminated Bosch beer to Thrawn.
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Thrawn could effectively counter Bosch's advantage by studying the beer...thereby gaining tactical insight into Bosch's plans. :p
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Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw
Thrawn would have taken over the Galaxy if it wasn't for Pellaeon backstabbing him.
Rukh, not Pellaeon. You actually manage to spell his name right, but it's the wrong name? :wtf:
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These results are really close. :nervous:
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As for being assassinated, there's always the clone-on-a-distant-world trick. Thrawn was particularly fond of that...
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
These results are really close. :nervous:
There's 2 reasons for that:
[list=1]
- You're posting on a FS forum.
- Most Bosch votes are from people who have never read the Thrawn trilogy.
:D
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
SW capships, according to the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections, can reach speeds of about 16,000 km/h in atmospheres and about 3,500G acceleration in space. Freespace capships have shown to be very sluggish in their maneuvers. While the ISD is slightly sluggish by SW standards, Thrawn would literally fly circles around Bosch and I bet while the bridge crew was dancing to "Can't touch this" too.
Um... riiiiiiight :wtf:
Please watch the Empire Strikes Back. See when those two Star Destroyers are performing "evasive maneuvers"? First of all they can be barely moving more than a few hundred kph considering how long it takes for them to pass each other. Second of all, see those officers inside the ship getting thrown against the wall when they do so? That's like .5G's max (more likely less) of acceleration. Now 3500G's (which I must remind you means an acceleration of 3500 x 9.8m/s² which means in 1 sec it will reach 123,480 kph and the effect on the passengers inside would be like hitting them at that speed)? SPLAT!
Please don't give me the excuse of "inertial dampeners" to explain that. First of all I already used the movie example to disprove that (and of course the movies take precedence over any EU crap). Second, wtf are "inertial dampeners"? Some mysterious material of Ultimate Newtonian Defying Powers(tm) that pervades every atom of the vessel (and the pilot) that creates a virtually inertialess system? PUH-LEESE! If that was true, SOLAR WIND should be enough to blow the ships a billion miles off course. And when the ships blow up the pieces should go flying off at near lightspeed (with their ultimate reactors of Physics Defying Power(tm) that have outputs of exponentially greater energy output than anti-matter annihilation).
Don't even get me started on the utter crap of "turbolaser power." Gigatons my ass.
I absolutely hate so called Star Wars "physics" (especially EU books and stuff who obviously have no idea what the **** they're talking about, and pull values straight out of their asses and stick them in, such as weapon power) which make NO SENSE and are utter bull****. This applies to most sci-fi but Star Wars is one of the worst offenders.
Sorry, I just get so pissed off whenever I get reminded of the utter laughability of Star Wars "physics." :mad2: :mad:
Yes, I'm overreacting. :nervous:
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Anyway, on-topic...
Bosch would 0wn Thrawn. Archaeologists > art critics. :p
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Originally posted by Cannikin
Sorry, I just get so pissed off whenever I get reminded of the utter laughability of Star Wars "physics." :mad2: :mad:
Yes, I'm overreacting. :nervous:
That's nice. Now go overreact in the early '70's, when the movies were made. Back when sci-fi was Pure. ;)
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Originally posted by Sandwich
That's nice. Now go overreact in the early '70's, when the movies were made. Back when sci-fi was Pure. ;)
Urge to mock... rising... :shaking:
Heh, you know, for some reason whenever I read something in sci-fi that is nonsense, I go absolutely nuts. Call it an obsession. But somehow I have absolutely no problem with high fantasy (casting spells, dragons, etc). Is there something wrong with me? :nervous:
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Originally posted by Cannikin
Go post that at spacebattles. I dare you :p :D
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Originally posted by Sandwich
There's 2 reasons for that:
[list=1]
- You're posting on a FS forum.
- Most Bosch votes are from people who have never read the Thrawn trilogy.
:D
You're forgetting the Hand of Thrawn series...
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God, that pic of Thrawn looks awful. :p
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Rukh, not Pellaeon. You actually manage to spell his name right, but it's the wrong name? :wtf:
Oops, yeah, Rukh, Pellaeon's bodyguard =p
Sorry :p
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Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw
Oops, yeah, Rukh, Pellaeon's bodyguard =p
Sorry :p
ummm Thrawn's bodyguard ya mean ;)
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Hat wins
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Originally posted by kode
You're forgetting the Hand of Thrawn series...
Not really, no. They were good, but not quite as incredible as the trilogy. :) Main negative point? No Thrawn. :D
Originally posted by Warlock
ummm Thrawn's bodyguard ya mean ;)
LOL @ DC - this just ain't your thread, eh?
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.....
*smacks head on table repeatedly*
:shaking:
GAHHHHHH!!!!!!
Sandwich, I think your ":wtf:" smilies screwed my brain over yesterday :blah:
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Originally posted by RKIF-DragonClaw
.....
*smacks head on table repeatedly*
:shaking:
GAHHHHHH!!!!!!
Sandwich, I think your ":wtf:" smilies screwed my brain over yesterday :blah:
Eh? :wtf: are you talking about??:devil: :drevil:
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:wtf:
hehe
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bosch would win, because every time thrawn would try to kill him, bosch would just wake up.
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Bosch is like Captain Picard. No matter the cost, or how he looks first contact and communicating with the enemy or unknown takes priority even over the lives of a great many.
For this reason alone i think he wld win, even if it meant driving the Iceni through the hull of an oppsoing enemy and ordering all if any of his ships to do the same.
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Ummm not the best reference there buddy,...Picard,..and all ST Captains forthat matter,...tend to shy against killing off there entire crew just to say "Hi" to some unknown species.
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That and it would still be no match for Thrawn's fleet. :D
We are the Chiss. Lower your shields and surrender your ships. Resistance is futile.
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Originally posted by Cannikin
Don't even get me started on the utter crap of "turbolaser power." Gigatons my ass.
I absolutely hate so called Star Wars "physics" (especially EU books and stuff who obviously have no idea what the **** they're talking about, and pull values straight out of their asses and stick them in, such as weapon power) which make NO SENSE and are utter bull****. This applies to most sci-fi but Star Wars is one of the worst offenders.
Sorry, I just get so pissed off whenever I get reminded of the utter laughability of Star Wars "physics." :mad2: :mad:
Taken from cannon sources in ESB it has been deduced that turbolasers have powers in the gigaton range. I can link you to stardestroyer.net or the technical commentairies by Dr. Saxton.
If you bother TO READ THE DAMNED WEBSITES you will see the obvious evidence to what I previously stated.
And if you're a cannon purist then you can continue to live in your litte world. The EU is official and is part of Star Wars. BTW, Dr. Saxton made extensive calculations in the Technical Commentaries and then applied them in the EPII ICS, which he wrote. So its not "pulled out of his ass" as you might say. Its fact.
Here's the link to stardestroyer.net I recommend you read the turbolaser commentaries section and the technology section under "I want you for the Galactic Empire!"
http://www.stardestroyer.net/toc.html (http://www.stardestroyer.net/toc.html)
And here's the link to Dr. Saxton's site
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/ (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/)
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Not really, no. They were good, but not quite as incredible as the trilogy. :) Main negative point? No Thrawn. :D
oki... never got around reading those books anyway... somehow
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
Dude, chill. No need for the mad smilies or swearing. He was ranting, and now so are you. Take it easy.
And besides, 'canon' means A) the movies B) the books and C) the radio dramatizations. That's the definition of 'canon' as applied to Star Wars. We are all aware of the SWTC page, but it must be taken with a grain of salt.
Remember, it's all imaginary. :nervous:
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
Taken from cannon sources in ESB it has been deduced that turbolasers have powers in the gigaton range. I can link you to stardestroyer.net or the technical commentairies by Dr. Saxton.
If you bother TO READ THE DAMNED WEBSITES you will see the obvious evidence to what I previously stated.
And if you're a cannon purist then you can continue to live in your litte world. The EU is official and is part of Star Wars. BTW, Dr. Saxton made extensive calculations in the Technical Commentaries and then applied them in the EPII ICS, which he wrote. So its not "pulled out of his ass" as you might say. Its fact.
Wow, you must be reading something other than me. Apparently the ESB reference you're refering to is the "asteroid vaporization" example right? Well, Dr. Saxton puts down calculations which seem seem to be within the kiloton range unless my arithmetic is wrong.
The section that refers to the "gigaton" range apparently is under the section labeled "Novel Evidence" and refers to novels who put down stuff like "turning a planet to molten slag" which I seem not to recall from the movies. Somehow I doubt that the novelists did extensive calculations to come up with that.
So, let's see, the famous "durasteel" that seems to protect Star Destroyers so easily against hundred-gigaton blasts against it. Yet Qui-gon seems to be able to stick his lightsaber in it and melt through durasteel blast doors in an instant. So I assume that means he's injecting hundreds of teratons worth of energy per second right? He must be using the patented Exponentially Greater Than 100% Mass to Energy Efficiency Reactor(tm) in his lightsaber, which, must I remind you from your precious EU, is made up of parts you can by out of a local hardware shack and a crystal made in an Easy-Bake-Oven.
Oh and the famous all-powerful lasers when used against Yuuzhan Vong ships (also from EU) seem to only make little molten pecks in the flying turds. And the big hunks of plasma rock that the Vong chuck back (which can only possibly contain a few hundred terajoules, some hundred kilotons worth of thermal energy) seem to eat through shields (which are supposed to absorb hundreds of teratons) and the vaunted armor plating with ease.
And since when has EU been canon? I seem to remember about a dozen or so novels' stories being shot down at the slightest whim of George Lucas when the last two movies came out.
And finally let me show you some things:
(http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/Usa/Tests/Baker8.jpg)
(http://nuketesting.enviroweb.org/hew/Usa/Tests/IvyMikeC383.jpg)
See those? Now, the top picture is Baker, a puny and primative 20 kiloton nuke, but was enough to raise a column of water 2000ft in diameter and 6000ft (1.13 miles) high containing over 250 million gallons of water.
The Cannikin test (5MT), which I can't get a decent image of, was detonated a mile underground and caused a shockwave that registered 6.8 on the Richter Scale.
Now the second image, that's slightly more than 10 megatons, which was more than enough to vaporize the entire island, leaving a hole 1.2 miles in diameter as well as deep fry all marine life within dozens of miles, and create a core temperature that can reach well over 100 million C, 6-7 times hotter than the CORE of the Sun, which will turn any material in the universe into disociated atoms, no matter what kind of BS "durasteel" you can make up.
A 20MT nuke can release so much energy that mere exposure to the LIGHT (which is a by-product of the fireball heating air molecules hundreds of millions of degrees and releasing some of the subsequent energy of it as visible light) for a fraction of a second will cause a 3rd degree burn 40km from the fireball itself.
Now, 200 gigatons is 10,000 times more than that... No wait, you said that turbolasers are far more powerful than 200 gigatons, so lets say 800 gigatons. 40,000 of those.
In other words...
New Republic battling the Empire for control of Coruscant: "Oops, we shot off ONE stray turbolaser. We just utterly annihilated an area the size of Alaska (yes, I know they wouldn't know what Alaska is), and caused a very severe nuclear winter scenario that will render the planet uninhabitable for thousands of years. Sorry!"
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Ummm
Its a movie guys.
It's called science ficton
it is not real
relax.
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If you guys want, I can pick apart Freespace physics too.
It's not as if I condone FS 500MT nukes barely scratching destroyers as well. :p
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Actually, Helios are around 6 GT... :D
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Originally posted by Cannikin
In other words...
New Republic battling the Empire for control of Coruscant: "Oops, we shot off ONE stray turbolaser. We just utterly annihilated an area the size of Alaska (yes, I know they wouldn't know what Alaska is), and caused a very severe nuclear winter scenario that will render the planet uninhabitable for thousands of years. Sorry!"
Thats why Courssucant and almost every other planet has something called planetary shielding , it prevents such a disaster. And starships with massive 200 GT weapons have something called sensors and targeting systems. They prevent any stray shots from ever hitting planet in the first place.
And who ever said the insides of the Trader Federation freighter were made of Durasteel? Only the outer hull is made of it.
And we clearly see an example of SW capship acceleration when the Imperial Fleet comes out of hiding from behind the far side of Endor and cuts off the rebel fleet. This flet, made entirely of Star Destroyers, came so fast that rebel ships only detected them once they had already been cut off. And don't say that the fleet hyperspaced there cause the DS had gravity wells online and the mass shadow of Endor would prevent the fleet from jumping from once side of the moon to the other and the Emperor clearly states that the fleet went to the far side of the Endor. It takes a hell of alot of acceleration to wrap around a huge moon in less than ten seconds!:ha:
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Originally posted by Warlock
Ummm
Its a movie guys.
It's called science ficton
it is not real
relax.
Besides dude you just ruined your whole arguement ... planetary shields = plus ,...Planet based Turbolasers = ruined the arguement.
But agian ....jsut to make sure
Originally posted by Warlock
Ummm
Its a movie guys.
It's called science ficton
it is not real
relax.
:D
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hehe, nukes are awesome.
i'm sorry, what were we talking about again?
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And this is why I said the Technical Commentaries ruin Star Wars. I'm pretty sure I said it'd ruin it..
ooopp yep
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Yeah that whole section of theforce.net is about people with too much time.
It kinda ruins star wars in how they try to rationalize it so much :doubt:
Told ya so.
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To those argueing the affects of a 200GT turbolaser blast:
The force of the weapon does not act like a bomb, it channels it's energy into one point. So the example of hitting Curscant with a stray shot and wiping out part of the city the size of Alaska is wrong :)
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nah it just would bury into the earths core causing lava to vent and then whipe out alaska :D
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Originally posted by Bri_Dog
To those argueing the affects of a 200GT turbolaser blast:
The force of the weapon does not act like a bomb, it channels it's energy into one point. So the example of hitting Curscant with a stray shot and wiping out part of the city the size of Alaska is wrong :)
You know, I was hoping you would say that misconception. :p First of all the energy of a nuke propogates from a very small area. The energy released is almost entirely thermal energy (the rest being high energy radiation like gamma rays), similar to what a laser would do.
Now if anything, a turbolaser with the power of 200GT would do MORE damage than a 200GT nuke, because ALL of the energy would be converted to thermal energy. Oh wait, 200GT is the puny transport guns right? So, 800GT.
Just to illustrate how this works:
A nuke releases an unimaginable amount of thermal energy. This heats up the air immediately surrounding the release. This obviously heats the air up to hundreds of millions of degrees, turning all of it into plasma. This effect is seen as the "fireball." This ball expands incredibly rapidly. The air outside the fireball is also heated and expands at an insane rate, producing the subsequent shockwave and blast (overpressure front), which does by far the most damage.
Now, turbolaser (providing a conveniant 800GT output of energy) hitting the ground would be a disaster beyond human imagination. First of all, while burning through the atmosphere, it would heat up the air to billions of degrees (comparable to a supernova) would cause a sudden expansion of the air so rapid that first of all, it would create a sound shock that's basically thunder (caused by the air being heated up to 10,000 degrees by lightning) x 1,000,000, shattering virtually all non-flexible material for hundreds of miles. Then the wind would be so strong that you wouldn't be at all surprised to see the Imperial Palace fly by.
Next, after it hits the ground the rock on the surface would immediately expand into a plasma fireball, like a nuke, because if the footage is to be believed in Star Wars, the energy is absorbed very rapidly, so it would end up vaporizing everything anywhere close to it.
But most of all, the worst damage would occur from where the turbolaser bores into the ground. The rock is also heated to billions of degrees and expands at insane rates. But this is a solid material, rather than a gaseous substance, so the result is FAR more catastrophic. The expanding and superheated plasma expands and utterly shatters the surrounding rock. This would create both gigantic cracks bursting through the crust of the planet shooting out ultra high-speed, billion degree plasma throughout the area. Then after that, a huge seismic shockwave such that humans have never imagined occuring would propogate under the surface. This shockwave, being relatively shallow beneath the surface would create even more shattering of the crust (think taking a sandbox, and doing a whip motion). And since the wave moves through a solid material, it is transfered very far and quickly, ripping apart all foundations and structures, as well as natural landmarks (mountains etc.) for hundreds if not thousands of miles. Oh and I almost forgot that the shockwave would also cause any tension in the rocks to be released causing even MORE earthquakes.
And that's from ONE shot.
Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
Thats why Courssucant and almost every other planet has something called planetary shielding , it prevents such a disaster. And starships with massive 200 GT weapons have something called sensors and targeting systems. They prevent any stray shots from ever hitting planet in the first place.
And who ever said the insides of the Trader Federation freighter were made of Durasteel? Only the outer hull is made of it.
And we clearly see an example of SW capship acceleration when the Imperial Fleet comes out of hiding from behind the far side of Endor and cuts off the rebel fleet. This flet, made entirely of Star Destroyers, came so fast that rebel ships only detected them once they had already been cut off. And don't say that the fleet hyperspaced there cause the DS had gravity wells online and the mass shadow of Endor would prevent the fleet from jumping from once side of the moon to the other and the Emperor clearly states that the fleet went to the far side of the Endor. It takes a hell of alot of acceleration to wrap around a huge moon in less than ten seconds!
Next, as I was saying, no matter WHAT durasteel is, it WILL be vaporized. Not only would all materials in the universe be disociated into plasma, but even the EU would verify that as well. Take the book Dark Apprentice for proof (a book that incidentally refers to the Star Destroyer "planet slagging"). In the end, Admiral Daala's SD's got vaporized in a fraction of a second by the supernova. However, at the distance they are from the star, the temperature of the expanding shockwave has cooled to a mere few million, or even down to the hundreds of thousands of degrees. The surface area of the back of a fleeing SD is quite small so the total energy absorbed is most likely FAR less than the energy in ONE turbolaser shot (remember, a "primitive" 10MT nuke could form a fireball 3 miles in diameter, 3 times larger than a SD on its long side, inside which everything was vaporized). But of course turbolasers act on an exceeding small area (1-2 meters in diameter) yet the amazing shields and "durasteel" shrug them off like stinging flies.
So, in otherwords, if durasteel and shields were so amazingly powerful, the Imperials inside should've just sat on the bridge with sunglasses and a cool glass of lemonade during the supernova laughing at Kyp Durron's pitiful attempts to blow them up.
As for the whole 3500G's thing, see my above comments about inertia. Besides, even if there WAS such a mysterious material as to render inertia a moot point, the people INSIDE still have inertia and so are you gonna make them swallow that special material as a daily part of their diet? Otherwise SPLAT! Oh and whenever the people are punched in a fist fight, they also splatter into a gooey mass on the walls (as well as the puncher himself because of Newton's laws... oh wait, I forget, Newtonian laws don't apply). And of course as I pointed out above, if inertia is virtually 0, then the slightest touch should've blown the ships away (space dust, solar wind, a frustrated stormtrooper beating on the walls because he was just demoted, etc.)
Oh and if they can accelerate to that high, why don't they "fly around in circles singing Can't Touch This." Obviously the enemy turrets can't possibly track you going at 16,000kph (which only takes half a second to reach accelerating at 3500G's) which would let you circle around the width of a SD about 2-3 times a second. See how slow turrets turn in ANH? Some of them are even human manned. That'll be quite a whiplash trying to keep up with em. But the people in the spinning ship could circle it so that one side's turrets always face the SD blasting away. But you see in RotJ, the Neb. B. Frigate going at a lazy pace along side the SD going at no more than 10kph...
[Starshiptroopers]
Would you like to know more?
[/Starshiptroopers]
:thepimp:
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:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Cannikin
{SNIPPETTY-SNIP}
Congrats, you just won our Rant-Yourself-A-Title competition! :D :drevil:
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Congrats, you just won our Rant-Yourself-A-Title competition! :D :drevil:
Woohoo! :D
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:lol: It is a rant, but quite true.
Turbolasers are not that high powered. Superlaser on the Eclipse, yes, but not a mere turbolaser. Debate this any more, Abhat, and you're going to look even more ridiculous than Cannikin here.
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You know, now I'm curious. What book is this where a Star Destroyer is vaporized by a supernova? Was the Star Destroyer fully shielded and undamaged? Did the supernova have any "special" properties or some such?
Just wondering... Seems like something warsies would want to forget about. :D
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Originally posted by Styxx
Just wondering... Seems like something warsies would want to forget about. :D
Heheh - matter of fact, it was my least favorite SW book (trilogy, actually) of them all so far. The Jedi Academy Trilogy, and the book is Dark Apprentice, I think.
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Originally posted by Styxx
You know, now I'm curious. What book is this where a Star Destroyer is vaporized by a supernova? Was the Star Destroyer fully shielded and undamaged? Did the supernova have any "special" properties or some such?
Just wondering... Seems like something warsies would want to forget about. :D
If you must know... it was at the very end of Dark Apprentice, second book in the Jedi Academy Trilogy. It was the Basilisk and had just left a battle over Calamari. As far as I see in the book, the SD was untouched in the battle, so it was at full hull strength and shields. And it went POOF! :)
Now, admittedly it was seven supernovae, but by calculation (according to the erroneous and vastly overpowered values of turbolaser power), that shouldn't have made a difference on the shields. Also the simultaneous explosions would have interfered with each other. And by geometry, no matter how the stars were arranged in relation to each other, each wave would hit the SD's seperately, each several minutes, if not hours apart, so it was one wave that reduced the SD to floating microscopic particles.
Meh, I'm tired. Anyone wanna take over ranting now? ;)
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Is there any indication of the minimum distance the ISD was from the supernovae (let's assume they all hit at the same time to be conservative)?
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Um, there's no real indication, except that they were about to go to hyperspace when Kyp Durron stalled em. So, since they can't go in the gravity well of something large (even just a small planet) I assume they were VERY far away as 7 Blue Giants orbiting around each other would create a HUGE gravity well.
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Ordealasim :D
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Neither would win. A) Thrawn is long time dead and B) Bosch isnt born yet :D
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Noghries would murder Bosch. Thrawn had a larger force.
Thrawn would win.
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Bosch has beams and missiles and can trick the GTVA into deploying the Collosus to solve what should have been a short lived regional event. This of course ignores the point that Bosch, for a short period of time anyway, had Alpha 1 under his command.
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Nnnnnoooooooo! I forgot to give the poll a timeout!
Ah well. 'Tis a good poll.
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'Tis a fine poll, but sure 't has run its course?
In other words, the next time I see such a heinous example of thread-exhuming (unless committed by me), I shall personally throw my boots out of the window, in the hope that they hit a passing optometrist.
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We are trying to compare two different universes once again. This is a problem in SW-C, too, when people ask: Which would win? The 17.6 km long SSD(which is only 8 km long, but somebody modelled it 17.6 km long, it's not an option now), or the 6 km long Colossus, which has beams?
Otherwise, if Bosch and Thrawn faced each other, Thrawn(ok, his spies ;)) would certainly stole the specifications of the beam cannons and arm his stardests with them.
As for fighters, I don't know which does more damage to the another side, the Prometheus S, or the very rapid fire imperial laser cannon. We cannot know it for sure.
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Originally posted by TopAce
...which is only 8 km long, but somebody modelled it 17.6 km long...
It IS 17km long. That's the way the SSD was in TESB, so its proper size is 17.6km. West End Games created the 8km myth. Canon material always takes precedence over EU and the games.
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OK, the SSD Executor is 12.6 km long, others are only 8 km. And always the official, canon info wins, and all know it as 8 km long. :ha:
Have a visit at the 'Questions' thread at the SW-C forum.[/b]
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No, the MOVIES win, and since the SSD was 11 miles long in the MOVIE, it is 11 miles long becasue the supreme canon (the movie) says so.:ha:
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
No, the MOVIES win, and since the SSD was 11 miles long in the MOVIE, it is 11 miles long becasue the supreme canon (the movie) says so. Just compare the sizes of the ISDs and the SSD in the movie and you'll see.:ha:
EDIT: AAAARRRRGGGGHHHH wrong button!
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Everybody has his/her private opinions about it.
You have done a dirty double post :)
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No, I mixed up the quote button with the edit button.
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But do you agree with me that all have different opinions?
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mwahaha.
I've alrady seen that thread in that same forum, methinks :p.
Not gonna read it all, but I'm sure I can guess what in there, so:
mmh... first would be, then, the bosh vs thrawn thing. regardless the thing that thrawn would win just coz he has way more ships ( others will reply that Bosh, ok, let's extend to the whole GTVA to be fair, has alpha1 ), that would lead to... mmh... colossus VS ISD. that would lead to beams cut throuhg shields. blablabla, people will argue that SW shields aren't FS shields and so beams would be useless, but as this argument can't be backed up by anything, someone will throw the SSD in to replace the ISD. which will lead to the insane powers of SW lasers. ah, since it's about the SSD, there's about 99% chances the thread has gone about how large the SSD really is ( about 18 km long, the rpg book is wrong, measurements from the movie gives it between 16.2 and 18.1 kms long. people will claim that the official size is, I think, 12.4 kms long -I didn't learn all those things, I've just seen that discussion so many times it's probably not even healthy. To that I'll anwser that when tESB first aired, Lucas Film gave away flyers, one of them being about the SSD, stating it was 18km longs. If that's not official, I dunno what is ).
So, I was talking about the lasers strengh, sorry for that SSD size digression. Mmh, another discussion I've had often, with Killmenow mainly ( a SW freak, if not THE SW freak :p ). argument will start with the fact that a sole ISD could beat up the colossus to pulp. other side will reply that yeah, of course, according to fluff, a single SSD salvo should be enough to destroy a planet anyway ( who needs a death star? ). SW side will reply that no, of course, since it's lasers, they just work on a small area. otehrs will reply that in that case the impact is not what would really deal the damage, but the fact it would vaporize the atmosphere during the shot entry, causing effects similar to a nuke. the SW size, not knowing what to reply, will say that the other guy is a physics phreak that has can prove nothing, and will just mock him up, since he has no real argument to offer to counter that. etc etc etc, then, eventually, Shrike will show up and say that it doesn't matter, since the culture ships will own everybody and the others too, coz they can.
I wonder how close I am about this thread, but I won't bother checking, actually. HAH, I hadmy share of fun for today :p
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Originally posted by Venom
mwahaha.
I've alrady seen that thread in that same forum, methinks :p.
Not gonna read it all, but I'm sure I can guess what in there, so:
mmh... first would be, then, the bosh vs thrawn thing. regardless the thing that thrawn would win just coz he has way more ships ( others will reply that Bosh, ok, let's extend to the whole GTVA to be fair, has alpha1 ), that would lead to... mmh... colossus VS ISD. that would lead to beams cut throuhg shields. blablabla, people will argue that SW shields aren't FS shields and so beams would be useless, but as this argument can't be backed up by anything, someone will throw the SSD in to replace the ISD. which will lead to the insane powers of SW lasers. ah, since it's about the SSD, there's about 99% chances the thread has gone about how large the SSD really is ( about 18 km long, the rpg book is wrong, measurements from the movie gives it between 16.2 and 18.1 kms long. people will claim that the official size is, I think, 12.4 kms long -I didn't learn all those things, I've just seen that discussion so many times it's probably not even healthy. To that I'll anwser that when tESB first aired, Lucas Film gave away flyers, one of them being about the SSD, stating it was 18km longs. If that's not official, I dunno what is ).
So, I was talking about the lasers strengh, sorry for that SSD size digression. Mmh, another discussion I've had often, with Killmenow mainly ( a SW freak, if not THE SW freak :p ). argument will start with the fact that a sole ISD could beat up the colossus to pulp. other side will reply that yeah, of course, according to fluff, a single SSD salvo should be enough to destroy a planet anyway ( who needs a death star? ). SW side will reply that no, of course, since it's lasers, they just work on a small area. otehrs will reply that in that case the impact is not what would really deal the damage, but the fact it would vaporize the atmosphere during the shot entry, causing effects similar to a nuke. the SW size, not knowing what to reply, will say that the other guy is a physics phreak that has can prove nothing, and will just mock him up, since he has no real argument to offer to counter that. etc etc etc, then, eventually, Shrike will show up and say that it doesn't matter, since the culture ships will own everybody and the others too, coz they can.
I wonder how close I am about this thread, but I won't bother checking, actually. HAH, I hadmy share of fun for today :p
Oooh! Venom's bulimic - he can read minds! :p
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*wonders why they would put different info on the website than they used in the movie*
Venom - Run! The Puncuation Monster is out to eat you! :p
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My money is on Thrawn.
Thrawn outwitted the Republic on numerous occasions, the only reason Bosch survived was because the GTVA let him get away, twice. In my opinion, considering there is practically no way of comparing ships from the 2 universes, it all boils down to tactical capability, and Thrawn, in my opinion, has far more than Bosch.
Flipside :D
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Bosch is to Thrawn what the Cardassians are to the Borg Collective.
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Originally posted by Flipside
My money is on Thrawn.
Thrawn outwitted the Republic on numerous occasions, the only reason Bosch survived was because the GTVA let him get away, twice. In my opinion, considering there is practically no way of comparing ships from the 2 universes, it all boils down to tactical capability, and Thrawn, in my opinion, has far more than Bosch.
Flipside :D
But what if Bosch knew the GTVA would let him get away and that was his whole plan all along? You can't say he isn't a tactical genius because he took what was offered to him. :p
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LOL True, but when Thrawn retreated, he usually had a trap ready for those that pursued.
I think the problem we face here is that the two Admirals are working on completely different agendas, Thrawn knows he is attempting to destroy the new republic, whereas Bosch believed he was trying to save humanity, even if it was never explained exactly how ;)
Flipside :D
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Right. It wasn't like Bosch was trying to destroy the GTVA really, only gather what he needed to get ETAK working and to open the Knossos Portal.
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Hmmmmmm.... I suppose Bosch does earn some points on the sneakiness scale for one thing.
It's sneaky enough to mislead the enemy about your goals.
It's even sneakier to mislead your own people about your goals ;)
I still remember from the Star Wars books, and the scientists attempting to decide how best to use the Prototype Death star. That was probably one of the funniest scenes from a book not written by Terry Pratchett that I have read in ages :)
Flipside :)