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Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Sandwich on March 19, 2003, 07:49:15 pm

Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on March 19, 2003, 07:49:15 pm
Approximately 700 meters in diameter, this installation is not supposed to be camoflauged as an asteroid, but simply makes use of the existing material of a large asteroid to build upon.

Suggestions?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: SKYNET-011 on March 19, 2003, 07:53:01 pm
:eek: :yes: :yes: :yes:

That KICKS MAJOR ASS!
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Knight Templar on March 19, 2003, 07:55:24 pm
put a nice cylinder out of the top and call it a super powerful observatory :D
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: SKYNET-011 on March 19, 2003, 07:57:15 pm
With some beam cannons, it could be a good replacement for the Arcadia. :nod:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Black Wolf on March 19, 2003, 09:38:16 pm
'Tis good. Particularly the exposed bits down the bottom. Very nice touch.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: HotSnoJ on March 19, 2003, 09:58:51 pm
Quote
Originally posted by SKYNET-011
With some beam cannons, it could be a good replacement for the Arcadia. :nod:


Ya but the problem is you can only have one of these "Asteroid Installations". So you'll have to have mutiple ones for any campaign needing more then one. :no-smilie-for-this:


But anyway
Quote
Originally posted by SKYNET-011
:eek: :yes: :yes: :yes:

That KICKS MAJOR ASS!
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Joey_21 on March 20, 2003, 12:21:56 am
Whoa... Very nice indeed. I like it! :yes:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: diamondgeezer on March 20, 2003, 02:19:33 am
Quote
Originally posted by HotSnoJ
Ya but the problem is you can only have one of these "Asteroid Installations". So you'll have to have mutiple ones for any campaign needing more than one.

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:


Good work, Sarnie, though I would advise you to lose the bit sticking out the bottom. Or change it to something with a bit more shape (or at least a bit less phallic :))
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: HotSnoJ on March 20, 2003, 05:34:15 am
Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer

:wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
 


There's only one asteroid that looks like that. Not two or three just one.
Title: good
Post by: wizz33 on March 20, 2003, 06:48:34 am
i like it just ad some round blocky dish at the bottum underside to make a docking platform, Like the arcadia.

but good :yes: :yes: :yes:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Styxx on March 20, 2003, 07:18:18 am
Damn cool. I'd just add some variety to the textures - support beams on the dome and similars, lighter panels through the standard walls, etc. Where is the docking bay, by the way?

:)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on March 20, 2003, 09:38:21 am
A "little" update, mainly on the lower section:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Tiara on March 20, 2003, 09:52:07 am
:eek:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: wizz33 on March 20, 2003, 09:58:14 am
Quote
Originally posted by Tiara
:eek:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on March 20, 2003, 10:11:36 am
very good but
i don't like the diagonal bottom spikes
the sphere need some work in my opinion, on the textures mainly, i don't like them, probably some less "casual" texture may be better, for example a texture with mostly horizontal  lines and with some "elements" on it (for example little rings with windows/lights, bespin style, or maybe an "hydroponic garden" if you want a civilian structure )
i like the yellow tech parts hidden in the rock, but i find them too "regular", maybe a secondary docking bay(with maybe the possibility to fly INSIDE the asteroid ;7;7), a couple of panoramic windows, some little structures could improove the whole thing
A docking platform could be used also at the base of the sphere: make the sphere diameter little smaller so to create a little horizontal area between the sphere and the vertical area, and work on this area to make a little platform
Overall vote so far: 7,5/8
can become easily an 8,5 or probably more with little work:) when you will finish it we also may use it in the starwars mod for some missions:)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: ZylonBane on March 20, 2003, 10:41:59 am
Very cool model, but as per your stated purpose, it looks more like it exists in spite of the asteroid, not because of it.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Ryx on March 20, 2003, 11:37:11 am
Now that's a sweet looking base. Grade A :yes:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: diamondgeezer on March 20, 2003, 11:38:00 am
The second model is better but, as the Bane™ said, it's still not quite right - what I think he means is that there's too much base in too small an asteroid. It looks not so much like the base was built in an asteroid to take advantage of said rock, but that the rock is there because it was in the way.

Solution - more rock, less base, Bodecia style :nod:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: CP5670 on March 20, 2003, 03:29:45 pm
yes, I like this one a lot. :yes:

The current style might work nicely if the base is supposed to be hidden though, since it looks like bits of asteroid were sort of pasted onto the installation to camouflage it.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Noise on March 20, 2003, 03:38:34 pm
Public release,,, please,,, public release.:wink:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on March 20, 2003, 05:23:15 pm
Thanks for the compliments, all. Just wait until I post the concept pic I drew before I started modelling... (I need a scanner...) :p

Quote
Originally posted by KARMA
very good but
i don't like the diagonal bottom spikes


I don't at the moment either. :p I had to rush out of the house, and I wanted to post what I had done so far, so... ;) I'm toying with putting either different mechanisims at the end of each diagonal leg, or having them end in round landing platforms, ala that Vasudan installation whose name I forget. :p

Quote
Originally posted by KARMA
the sphere need some work in my opinion, on the textures mainly, i don't like them, probably some less "casual" texture may be better, for example a texture with mostly horizontal  lines and with some "elements" on it (for example little rings with windows/lights, bespin style, or maybe an "hydroponic garden" if you want a civilian structure )


Again, agreed. The problem is that I made the sphere a geosphere, not your standard everything-comes-to-a-point-at-the-poles sphere. Which means that I'm essentially limited to a repeating texture like I have now, or going all the way and making my own UVW map (which is, at the moment, far beyond my know-how). I definitely want something with the dome to change before I call it "complete".


Quote
Originally posted by KARMA
i like the yellow tech parts hidden in the rock, but i find them too "regular", maybe a secondary docking bay(with maybe the possibility to fly INSIDE the asteroid ;7;7), a couple of panoramic windows, some little structures could improove the whole thing


Nahh, I'm not gonna make this one have internal guts unless I'm really bored one day. :p Besides, there's no reason for it to have that. It has a hangar and few docking platforms / arms,  no need to go overboard.

And it's the regularity of the yellow parts that I liked, actually - shows that there's an  internal structure running thoughout the whole asteroid. :)

Quote
Originally posted by KARMA
A docking platform could be used also at the base of the sphere: make the sphere diameter little smaller so to create a little horizontal area between the sphere and the vertical area, and work on this area to make a little platform


Nahh, the dome stays. Like I said above, I have docking platforms coming out of the sides - those arm thingys.

Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane
Very cool model, but as per your stated purpose, it looks more like it exists in spite of the asteroid, not because of it.


Hmmm... I see what you mean. On one hand, it's not like the station engineers would hesitate to build more superstructure far beyond the original asteroid boundaries if the need arose. On the other hand, ummmm..... yeah. :p

Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
The second model is better but, as the Bane™ said, it's still not quite right - what I think he means is that there's too much base in too small an asteroid. It looks not so much like the base was built in an asteroid to take advantage of said rock, but that the rock is there because it was in the way.

Solution - more rock, less base, Bodecia style :nod:


Again, hmmm.

I'm toying with removing those bottom four diagonal legs alltogether. Opinions?

Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
The current style might work nicely if the base is supposed to be hidden though, since it looks like bits of asteroid were sort of pasted onto the installation to camouflage it.


There is already that beam weapon research base hidden away insode an asteroid - far better than anything I could do. This ain't supposed to be hidden in the asteroid, just incorporating it.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on March 20, 2003, 05:30:27 pm
instead of reducing the installation you can increase the rock:)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: diamondgeezer on March 20, 2003, 06:26:39 pm
What he said :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: ZylonBane on March 24, 2003, 03:16:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
This ain't supposed to be hidden in the asteroid, just incorporating it.

Then the question becomes-- why? Excavating solid rock to architectural specifications is insanely resource-intensive. There needs to be a Darn Good Reason an asteroid was involved, as simply building a free-floating station must be significantly faster/cheaper.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Galemp on March 24, 2003, 03:31:34 pm
Agreed. You can lose the asteroid altogether and it would be more practical for a campaign, be more realistic, and look better. The asteroid isn't really the focal point anyway. :nod:

For the bottom, try this. Look at the clustered array under the runway of the Orion, with the spikes and radar dishes and whatnot everywhere. Put something like that hanging underneath. No need to make it radially symmetrical; in fact, it's better if it's asymmetrical.

And for the top dome, how about a geodesic bracing texture? That would be cool.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: diamondgeezer on March 24, 2003, 06:54:59 pm
Quote
Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
And for the top dome, how about a geodesic bracing texture? That would be cool.


:nod::yes:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: SKYNET-011 on March 24, 2003, 07:46:44 pm
Keep the asteroid!

It looks cool...
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Darkage on March 25, 2003, 03:22:22 am
:eek:


That looks damn good dude!

So far i like it!

What kinda defence wil it have? AAF and Flak mainly?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on March 25, 2003, 03:34:09 am
Quote
Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
For the bottom, try this. Look at the clustered array under the runway of the Orion, with the spikes and radar dishes and whatnot everywhere. Put something like that hanging underneath. No need to make it radially symmetrical; in fact, it's better if it's asymmetrical.

And for the top dome, how about a geodesic bracing texture? That would be cool.


Good idea for the bottom, and yes, I like asymmetrical stuff, too - just look at the asteroid part. :p

As for the top dome... yeah. I wish I could, but I have no texturing skills whatsoever, and I made the mistake of making it a geodesic dome as opposed to the regular kind of dome made by 3D apps, where all that hemisphere's polygons meet at the pole. If I find a good amount of free time I'll take a shot at it though. I'm not really pleased with the textures there either.

Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane
There needs to be a Darn Good Reason an asteroid was involved, as simply building a free-floating station must be significantly faster/cheaper.


Quote
Originally posted by SKYNET-011
Keep the asteroid!

It looks cool...


What he said. :D If taking advantage of the pre-existing material of an enormous (ok, maybe just plain large-ish) free-floating asteroid doesn't do it for you, then it's for the Coolness Factor™. All buildings here in Jerusalem are required by law to be faced with Jerusalem Stone, a kind of limestone with a certain appearance. It doesn't help the structural integrity of said buildings, doesn't really make them any more protected from the elements, doesn't make them more "efficient" in any manner, really. It's purely for the look - they integrate better with the area.

So does this base. It's not meant to be a millitary installation per se. You can script in a small GTVA contingent stationed there, sure, but the ultimate purpose is not of a millitary nature. The asteroid part is simply to incorporate some natural elements of space into the design.


....and with that, coming up next! My half-nebula installation! Come see it now - if you can! :lol: ;)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: ZylonBane on March 25, 2003, 11:46:14 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
If taking advantage of the pre-existing material of an enormous (ok, maybe just plain large-ish) free-floating asteroid doesn't do it for you, then it's for the Coolness Factor™.
But that's just it... the design of the station doesn't take advantage of the asteroid at all. It's like someone said, "Build a station RIGHT THERE." "But sir, there's an asteroid there!" "I don't care, build it there anyway. And leave the asteroid where it is." :wtf:

An installation that took advantage of an asteroid would have the majority of its structure scattered on the surface.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on March 25, 2003, 04:11:45 pm
Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane
But that's just it... the design of the station doesn't take advantage of the asteroid at all. It's like someone said, "Build a station RIGHT THERE." "But sir, there's an asteroid there!" "I don't care, build it there anyway. And leave the asteroid where it is." :wtf:


:lol:

Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane
An installation that took advantage of an asteroid would have the majority of its structure scattered on the surface.


It's not a big asteroid - not in that sense. The installation has a ~700 meter diameter - as long as a Deimos. Scattering facilities over the surface would be slightly strange, seeing as they'd either have to make use of artificial gravity just to keep the horizon "normal", or else they'd orient everything one way. Which is what this is - just far more integrated into the 'roid.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on March 25, 2003, 08:07:51 pm
btw san', you should be able to apply a texture even on a geosphere using a spheric uvmap
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on March 26, 2003, 03:57:28 am
Quote
Originally posted by KARMA
btw san', you should be able to apply a texture even on a geosphere using a spheric uvmap


Yeah, of course I can - but the trick is that if I wanted to simulate support beams and the like, I'd have to apply a triangular texture (or a square tex with triangular "content") to every face individually. MAX has a UVW per face method of mapping, but I'm not sure it'll be able to give me the precise control I'd need. I may just have to resort to planar mapping each face of the geosphere individually - but the result should be worth it.

Now to find the time.... :-/
Title: Hey Sandwich,
Post by: Star Dragon on March 27, 2003, 04:43:04 pm
This asteroid could hold a few thousand fighters and a few capships (With fighter compliments also).. If you have the time wanna make a few hangars and interior tunnels fo it (like main control center, power station, ops! I forgot we can use the core of Karnak! he he this would be a cool asteroid. you could fly around for 10 minutes in the interior I'll wager. The whole mision could tale place inside it. Then a Red alert mision to get the hell out like the deathstar...

  Here are some pics. First one shows off DS9 i'm in a HercII just to the upper right of the other ring shooting my guns toward the dominion asteroid base. This shows the proper scale of the DS9 model. However the base next to it is HUGE! to show better scale I next moved the hercII directly over the little ball command center on the base (in this pic I am the black dot in the white circle firing my weapons) now taking the size of the building into consideration imagine the size of the asteroid in game!) note FS2 handled fine even with the 20+ fed ships/stations and the 9 klingon/rom ships stations and 9 other race ship stations I had in mission to fly around and take screens of... Only problem I found is with this particular model. It isn't solid. it is using a fighter table playing dead so it dosen't move. I can shoot it but fly through the walls. Is the model too big? Can this be fixed. And is anyone else excited about having a base this fricken hugh to do stuff inside of? ;)

(http://photo.starblvd.net/Star_Dragon/4-1-4-1050919089?m=0&pg=3&ro=0&co=3)

(http://photo.starblvd.net/Star_Dragon/4-1-5-1050919367?m=0&pg=3&ro=0&co=4)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Galemp on March 27, 2003, 04:48:01 pm
:wtf: Where did you get the idea that this base is frikkin huge?

Oh, and your next post will be number 666. :devil:
Title: Re: Hey Sandwich,
Post by: Sandwich on March 27, 2003, 05:56:39 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Star Dragon
This asteroid could hold a few thousand fighters and a few capships (With fighter compliments also).. If you have the time wanna make a few hangars and interior tunnels fo it (like main control center, power station, ops! I forgot we can use the core of Karnak! he he this would be a cool asteroid. you could fly around for 10 minutes in the interior I'll wager. The whole mision could tale place inside it. Then a Red alert mision to get the hell out like the deathstar...


Erm... what GE said. Here's a size comparison. I haven't modified the installation any yet, so don't bother looking for changes. :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Anaz on March 27, 2003, 06:45:34 pm
:eek2:

Quote
In the words of Neo
Whoa.
Title: Re: Re: Hey Sandwich,
Post by: J.F.K. on March 28, 2003, 03:43:23 am
:eek: That latest shot is awesome!
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on March 28, 2003, 04:43:04 am
I love perspective. That was done in TS5, BTW - the models were, not the nebula.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: J.F.K. on March 28, 2003, 05:00:25 am
Perspective makes so much difference. The nebula looks Photoshopped, is that right?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on March 28, 2003, 05:17:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by J.F.K.
Perspective makes so much difference. The nebula looks Photoshopped, is that right?


Yeah, 'tis Photoshopped. It's not meant to be a proper render, just a scale comparison. :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 01, 2003, 01:25:25 pm
Texture update - which looks better, with or without the beam turret texture circles?

(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/geodome1.jpg)
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/geodome2.jpg)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on April 01, 2003, 02:43:16 pm
second one
btw my suggestion is that the black lines should be smaller and look like pipes (it's pretty easy with photoshop, just go to blending options and use the bevel), and the grey areas should be little more dark (and probably i'd work on them a little to make em seem shyiny glass)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 01, 2003, 03:13:56 pm
Those black areas are actually the support braces, lemme post the texture itself for ya to see.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: karajorma on April 01, 2003, 03:50:09 pm
You need some extra detailing on the circles of that texture. Apart from that are you saying that all the holes will be beams? Cause that's a bit insane :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on April 01, 2003, 04:37:52 pm
the braces defenitively needs to be bigger and i would try to use somekind of dark background instead of the black lines (for example, a group of bigger tubes)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 01, 2003, 04:51:57 pm
No, no beams - that was just the only round texture I knew of, but I took it off anyway. Here's what I have:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Su-tehp on April 01, 2003, 05:57:29 pm
Damn nice work so far, Sandwich. That nebula pic of the station and a the Deimos corvette was SWEEEEEEEET.

Something just occurred to me: That installation has docking ports for capships like the Deimos (or it will soon be incorporated). I can see circumstances for using this in nebula missions in DatDB... (hint hint!);7
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 01, 2003, 06:23:02 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Su-tehp
Damn nice work so far, Sandwich. That nebula pic of the station and a the Deimos corvette was SWEEEEEEEET.

Something just occurred to me: That installation has docking ports for capships like the Deimos (or it will soon be incorporated). I can see circumstances for using this in nebula missions in DatDB... (hint hint!);7



Y0u mean for the ****** to use as their ******? Good point! :p :lol:

If y0u can use it, y0u can have it. :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Anaz on April 01, 2003, 06:40:50 pm
it just occured to me sandwich- I think the top might look a little better if you made the support struts a light color, and the greeble stuff a dark color. Would make the struts seem, i dunno...more strutlike.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on April 01, 2003, 07:00:54 pm
sandwich, this is an alternative "bespin style" for the top, i did it in a hurry, but i think it may give the idea of what i'm thinking
btw i like the "struct style" too, i may give a look at the texture in the next days if you want (i don't promise anything)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Su-tehp on April 01, 2003, 07:59:52 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Y0u mean for the ****** to use as their ******?


No, I meant for the **** to use as a **** in order to *******  **** the ********. That way, the **** can **** the ******** right in the ***. Otherwise the  ******** would be able to ****** **** at the ****. Do you understand what I'm ******? That's what I'm ******. What am I ******? I have no bloody ****!
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on April 02, 2003, 08:03:37 am
KARMA, that looks a lot like the Nomad Moon, from Cataclysm. Very nice, though.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 02, 2003, 08:07:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by KARMA
sandwich, this is an alternative "bespin style" for the top, i did it in a hurry, but i think it may give the idea of what i'm thinking
btw i like the "struct style" too, i may give a look at the texture in the next days if you want (i don't promise anything)


Hmm... interesting idea - here's what came of it:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: FreeTerran on April 02, 2003, 08:15:09 am
:cool: The station looks very pretty.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: BlackStar on April 02, 2003, 08:51:20 am
Both versions of the sphere are good, just depends on the overall use of the station.

The first, with all that glass, would be good for a large hydroponics garden or other "natural" setting - something humans may desparately want to experience after an extended tour in deep space and no habitable planets nearby.

Or perhaps a "Noah's Ark" approach to terraforming.  Keep your people, animals, and plants growing in orbit while the planet is prepared.

The second is definitely more utilitarian, like a temporary HQ for a newly found system.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on April 02, 2003, 02:16:24 pm
Glass one, think "Garden grove", think "Citadel Station"

I like the second one, much more... well, much more military. BUT it all depends on the scale, that might be too mnay decks.

And Sarny, please release this soon!

BTW, how big is it?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 02, 2003, 03:37:16 pm
Quote
Originally posted by BlackStar
The first, with all that glass, would be good for a large hydroponics garden or other "natural" setting - something humans may desparately want to experience after an extended tour in deep space and no habitable planets nearby.


Glass? What glass?

Quote
Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
BTW, how big is it?


:rolleyes: Look at the picture I attached to my post on the previous page - the one in the orange nebula with the Deimoses...
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: BlackStar on April 03, 2003, 08:34:05 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich


Glass? What glass?





Well... It COULD be glass.  Or plastic, or whatever-futuristic-material you say it is.  But obviously, that's just my asumption and guess as to it's function.

If it isn't transparent then what purpose would a big dome like that have?  

So I'll ask you, as the engineer, what's inside the dome?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on April 03, 2003, 09:30:52 am
i tend to agree with blackstar, in the first version i definitively think that a "glass style" is the better chice
for the second version...good, but....uvmaps..
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 03, 2003, 04:46:20 pm
FYI, a circle is the largest enclosed area in the least border; this is even more dramatic with sphere - they have the highest surface-to-volume ratio that can be in 3D (not gonna even start with hyper-axes and quantum tunnelling dimensions). Ergo, the sphere is the most efficient shape to construct isolated environments, since you have the highest internal space for the least hull area.

And that's why there is a dome. :D

And Karma: what about UVMaps? I used em - you know how hard it is to properly texture a low-poly geosphere? I just hope I can get this converted in game with smoothing. :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: J.F.K. on April 04, 2003, 04:46:06 am
Aaaaaawwwwwwwesome. :yes: I can't wait for you to finish this and render it with some nice bump-mapping and lighting. :nod:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Bobboau on April 04, 2003, 04:52:57 am
hmmm.... this will look quite nice glow mapped in FSO
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 04, 2003, 05:29:07 am
Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
hmmm.... this will look quite nice glow mapped in FSO


I'm toying with replacing all of the hull textures on this thing with textures I make, simply because I want it to look different from standard GTVA appearance, as well as the fact that I'm semi-pleased with the way the textures I've made have come out so far. I'll leave the asteriod textures, but all the others I'll consider making from scratch.

I'll post pics as I go.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on April 04, 2003, 05:29:17 am
Quite agree.

And what sort of weapons do you plan on giving it?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 04, 2003, 05:30:43 am
Quote
Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
And what sort of weapons do you plan on giving it?


None. It's a civvie/research installation. Besides, I don't want to have to waste polys on turrets. :D
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on April 04, 2003, 05:33:14 am
Well I mhope it has a strong defensive fleet then, to prevent pirate raids and such.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: FreeTerran on April 04, 2003, 05:35:11 am
I think a few turrets must the installation have.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on April 04, 2003, 05:57:44 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich


I'll leave the asteriod textures, but all the others I'll consider making from scratch.

I'll post pics as I go.


good:) and it seems you have some good starting skills(and texturer are always well welcomed). if you need tips/help/critics/suggestions just ring the bell:)
about the uvmaps, i said that because it seems like if the vertical lines are somehow distorted in certain points. It may be due to uvmaps or the texture
suggestion:
make a whole new sphere (16 edges if i counted right), apply a spheric uvmap (with lithunwrap if your truespace version doesn't have it) to the whole sphere
apply the texture with vertical repetitions=2 and the horizontal repetions you want (4 i think will be the best)
Cut the lower semisphere
Don't join your semisphere to the rest of the base: you can make it a destroyable subobject  ;7, with it's own destroyed version  ;7 (do you remember in starshiptroopers the wrekage of the rodger young? when you can see the internal bridges in fire from the pieces of the ship?;7 )
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 04, 2003, 05:58:11 am
Quote
Originally posted by Free Terran
I think a few turrets must the installation have.


Nope, sorry. After I finalize it, I'll have no problem with releasing the MAX / COB if others really realy want to turret it, but I'm building this as a civvie station. It's as defended as your local 7-11 - the cops can get there in a few minutes in case of need (such as lack of beer at the station... ;) ).
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: FreeTerran on April 04, 2003, 06:01:00 am
But then they have a fighterbay ?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on April 04, 2003, 12:27:12 pm
Well I suppose scoundrels will have to be able to fly their customised light freighters into the place so they can sell their black market booty.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on April 04, 2003, 01:45:28 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Free Terran
But then they have a fighterbay ?


Hangar bay.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 02, 2003, 10:33:30 am
*BUMPDATE*

Worked on it a bit more... I'm satisfied how it is now. Here's some pics:

Overall pic, really bright so you can see the details:

(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/astr_inst04.jpg)

Closeup of the bottom hangar entrance, showing the central pillar running vertically through the middle:
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/astr_inst05.jpg)


Wireframe, showing the internal build, esp. the 3-tiered construction of the big internal hangar bay (pinkish color):
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/astr_inst06.gif)


You can get the MAX file here: http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/asteroid-installation-RC1.zip

Feel free to POF it. :D
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: karajorma on August 02, 2003, 10:39:57 am
I'd be tempted to use darker asteroid textures so as to contrast the lights more.

But it's pretty damn good anyway :) :yes:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Thor on August 02, 2003, 10:48:34 am
I'm just asking permission for use in ITHOV.

THat is a thing of beauty!   I know just the place for it to.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on August 02, 2003, 11:30:05 am
:yes:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Nico on August 02, 2003, 01:24:37 pm
very nice :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 02, 2003, 03:43:09 pm
EDIT: New pics and MAX file download on previous page, in case anyone missed it. :p

Quote
Originally posted by Thor
I'm just asking permission for use in ITHOV.

THat is a thing of beauty!   I know just the place for it to.


Of course, but someone will have to POF it first. Once it's POFed I'll release it for the game, obviously.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Knight Templar on August 02, 2003, 04:05:09 pm
if you gave it a gold dome, it'd be just like that uber-sinagouge(?) in Jerusalem. It's even got the giant rock in it. ;)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 02, 2003, 04:13:58 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
if you gave it a gold dome, it'd be just like that uber-sinagouge(?) in Jerusalem. It's even got the giant rock in it. ;)


The Dome of the Rock?

It ain't a synagogue, it's a Muslim shrine... supposedly the rock is where Mohammed ascended into heaven. It's also (traditionally?) the site where Abraham nearly sacrificed his son, Issac - the top of Mount Moriah.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: an0n on August 02, 2003, 04:25:37 pm
I like mine (http://www.fattonys.com/images/protoyards.jpg) better.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Shoot me.


One of these days I'm actually going to put some effort into a model, then, then you'll see. Mwuahahahaahhah...ha..haha.....ha.........*coughs*
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Knight Templar on August 02, 2003, 04:39:52 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich


The Dome of the Rock?

It ain't a synagogue, it's a Muslim shrine... supposedly the rock is where Mohammed ascended into heaven. It's also (traditionally?) the site where Abraham nearly sacrificed his son, Issac - the top of Mount Moriah.


That's the one. Sorry, it's been at least 3 years since I studied Islam. :nervous:

an0n: You should do that more often. :p
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Carl on August 02, 2003, 04:41:06 pm
gonna have the rock blow away as subsystems, right?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: an0n on August 02, 2003, 04:56:21 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
an0n: You should do that more often. :p
Put some effort in, or ask people to shoot me?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: StratComm on August 02, 2003, 05:03:44 pm
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Put some effort in, or ask people to shoot me?


Put some effort in, naturally.  You already have plenty of people who wouldn't mind shooting you :p
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 02, 2003, 06:44:02 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Carl
gonna have the rock blow away as subsystems, right?


No... not unless someone else wants to model in that stuff. :p
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Taristin on August 02, 2003, 07:20:29 pm
Hm... can you fly around in it?

Sandwich... damn you. I don't know why... so don't take it personally... :p
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: StratComm on August 02, 2003, 07:25:58 pm
You know Sandwich, that station looks cool enough, but it still looks like it was build in spite of the asteroid rather than into it.  Having the entire inside hollowed out, for example; one would think that it would have been just as easy to build an entire hull.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: an0n on August 02, 2003, 07:36:18 pm
With a hull you need to refine metal, mould it, bend it, shape it, fit it and test it. With a roid you just need to hollow it out, make sure it's sturdy and that it's air-tight.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: diamondgeezer on August 02, 2003, 07:44:17 pm
Don't forget having to paint Jerri Ryan down the side
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: an0n on August 02, 2003, 07:52:04 pm
Bah, Ryan is old hat.

Infact, they're all old-hat. Ryan, Wuhrer, Masterson, Goodrem, Loken. My new obsession is Keira Knightly. A pure angel. A ray of light, blinding all you scum with her perfect beauty.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Knight Templar on August 02, 2003, 09:27:35 pm
*goes to see Bend It Like Beckham
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: an0n on August 02, 2003, 09:35:08 pm
Clever boy.

And The Hole and Pirates Of The Caribbean, and some other crappier films.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Galemp on August 02, 2003, 10:58:29 pm
Sandy: I'll POF it for you, soon as I can get it downloaded and transferred. I'll also model in Boadicea-style asteroid chunks. If you give me some creative license, I can even make a few internal tunnels too. :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 03, 2003, 12:35:12 am
Quote
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Hm... can you fly around in it?


Theoretically, yes. The only catch I can think of is the clearance between the central column and the tighter sides of the hangar bay - I haven't tested/calculated how big that space is with the installation at any given size.


Quote
Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Sandy: I'll POF it for you, soon as I can get it downloaded and transferred. I'll also model in Boadicea-style asteroid chunks. If you give me some creative license, I can even make a few internal tunnels too. :)


;7

I already have 3 entrances to the hangar bay, though, and this isn't supposed to be that massive...
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: J.F.K. on August 03, 2003, 01:40:47 am
Hey, that's really turned into quite a polished product. Kudos. :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Trivial Psychic on August 03, 2003, 03:18:31 am
In keeping with the asteroid theme, perhaps something you might consider creating (which should be a sinch) is asteroids converted as beefed up sentries.  You could have asteroids, more like the regular sized, but with higher hitcounts, that have multipe gun emplacements mounted on them, possibly even with beam cannons.  If you want to make 'em even more dangerous, add shields.

Later!
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Exarch on August 03, 2003, 03:58:51 am
I *really* like that installation. It's not just good, it's damn near perfect :nod:

[Edit] Oh, and TP, take a look Here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,13921.0.html), might be something like that you're looking for :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 03, 2003, 07:14:10 am
Quote
Originally posted by Exarch
I *really* like that installation. It's not just good, it's damn near perfect :nod:

[Edit] Oh, and TP, take a look Here (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,13921.0.html), might be something like that you're looking for :)


Thanks! :)

And by strange coincidence, that thread is what inspired me to do this asteroid platform in the first place. :D I actually drew up a concept sketch first for this platform, along with another asteroid-based installation... I think I posted the concept up here a while ago... should I find it?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on August 03, 2003, 09:20:05 am
I think that if it will be a pof, and with maybe some minor tweaking, we'll use it in SW conversion too:)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Taristin on August 03, 2003, 01:20:05 pm
Yes, sandwich, find your concept pics. I wanna see them. :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 03, 2003, 04:17:37 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Yes, sandwich, find your concept pics. I wanna see them. :)


I posted, but it killed the thread... :(

http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,15506.0.html
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Taristin on August 03, 2003, 04:28:03 pm
Funny, usually my posts do that...
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 04, 2003, 03:44:08 am
Ok, fine - lazy bums:

(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/images/asteroid-bases.jpg)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Deepblue on August 04, 2003, 08:41:01 am
ohhh theres a bit that rotates. (Goes and edits pof)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 04, 2003, 08:45:12 am
Quote
Originally posted by Deepblue
ohhh theres a bit that rotates. (Goes and edits pof)


Actually, in the final model, only the 3 radar dishes and the hub they are connected to near the very bottom of the model rotate. ;)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 04, 2003, 05:35:33 pm
I've figured out how to make the dome a geodome with appropriate edge/strut-following textures. The only question is, which way do you all prefer? The current, rows of lights way, or a cool geodome effect?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Zeronet on August 04, 2003, 06:03:06 pm
:yes: :yes: Good model.


L33t hanger :D
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Exarch on August 05, 2003, 01:20:19 am
Depends on what you intend it for. If it's purely a civvy installation, geodome will be great. But if it's supposed to be able to take some punishment, better to keep the current looks since the geodome will look way too fragile for any military application.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Hudzy on August 05, 2003, 07:21:22 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
I've figured out how to make the dome a geodome with appropriate edge/strut-following textures. The only question is, which way do you all prefer? The current, rows of lights way, or a cool geodome effect?


Great work on that model :D Don't suppose one of each could be done? Then people could choose which they wanted to use. I liked both of the designs to be honest.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Thor on August 05, 2003, 10:32:49 am
That could be cool.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 05, 2003, 11:28:44 am
Quote
Originally posted by Hudzy


Great work on that model :D Don't suppose one of each could be done? Then people could choose which they wanted to use. I liked both of the designs to be honest.


Well, you already have the window'ed version, and I'll make the MAX file of the geodome version, so if someone converts them both, then... :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on August 06, 2003, 04:00:27 am
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich


Well, you already have the window'ed version, and I'll make the MAX file of the geodome version, so if someone converts them both, then... :)

....then...you may be able to start some sw stuff:devil: :devil:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 06, 2003, 11:21:33 am
Quote
Originally posted by KARMA

....then...you may be able to start some sw stuff:devil: :devil:


:wtf: Explain.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on August 06, 2003, 12:52:45 pm
I was just trying to kidnap a modeller:p
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: comICEMAN on August 06, 2003, 01:03:25 pm
Can someone set the POF file somewhere online?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Hudzy on August 06, 2003, 03:22:27 pm
Pof doesn't exist yet. I think it needs converting still.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: comICEMAN on August 06, 2003, 03:50:15 pm
Yeah, but has no one done it yet?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Knight Templar on August 06, 2003, 03:54:13 pm
That'd be a no.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: comICEMAN on August 06, 2003, 04:16:12 pm
But someoone has got the tools to do it, i'm sure!
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Knight Templar on August 06, 2003, 04:39:03 pm
yeah... but you see, they haven't finished it quite yet, hence it not being done.....
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Taristin on August 06, 2003, 04:46:02 pm
I think it's GE doing it. And he wants to put on asteroid damage, so it may take a while.

So hold on, it'll be done when it gets done!
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 06, 2003, 05:33:52 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
So hold on, it'll be done when it gets done!


You can say that again... :p

*has a feeling he knows what's going to happen*

;)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Galemp on August 07, 2003, 10:03:24 pm
O ye of little faith... ;)

You ought to know by now that if I'm working on something I get it finished as soon as I can. If it's got LODs and debris I can get you a POF by Tuesday. I'm more likely to convert a carrier for the TVWP first, though, then finish the model I'm working on now and release that. If I'm doing extensive model enhancement with dynamic damage and interior tunnels, and if there aren't any trimmings like LODs, then we're looking at closer to 2 weeks.

That's my estimate. You'll get the bill in the mail. :thepimp:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 08, 2003, 07:06:31 pm
Quote
Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
O ye of little faith... ;)

You ought to know by now that if I'm working on something I get it finished as soon as I can. If it's got LODs and debris I can get you a POF by Tuesday. I'm more likely to convert a carrier for the TVWP first, though, then finish the model I'm working on now and release that. If I'm doing extensive model enhancement with dynamic damage and interior tunnels, and if there aren't any trimmings like LODs, then we're looking at closer to 2 weeks.

That's my estimate. You'll get the bill in the mail. :thepimp:


Would you kill me if I told you that I have an updated MAX file? :nervous:

I've made two versions of the base - one with a regular dome, and one with a geodome, with geodome-appropriate textures to boot. ;) I also added to both versions an outcropping of asteroid above the level of the dome, and a conning tower at the dome peak.

Here's some screenies:


Regular dome:
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/astr_inst05-dome.jpg)



GeoDome™:
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/astr_inst05-geodome.jpg)

I haven't made any debris, dynamic damage parts, or LODs, though. All of which you, GE, were going to do, so I sincerely hope you haven't begun! :nervous:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Havock on August 09, 2003, 06:56:23 am
Quote
Originally posted by HotSnoJ


Ya but the problem is you can only have one of these "Asteroid Installations". So you'll have to have mutiple ones for any campaign needing more then one. :no-smilie-for-this:


But anyway
 


unless you make a standard "naked" facility and give it docking points to attach various pieces of rock to :)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 09, 2003, 07:41:47 am
Methinks we'll just leave it at one facility like this in the galaxy, m'kay? You may get another one if I decide to build the other concept model I drew. ;)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Goober5000 on August 09, 2003, 12:26:05 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
Regular dome:
(http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/astr_inst05-dome.jpg)


I like this one much better. :yes: The other one looks a bit rickety and rather out of place on such an imposing installation.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on August 09, 2003, 01:28:01 pm
just make different asteroid versions and it will be realistic to more than 1 of these installations in a campaign
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 09, 2003, 04:05:25 pm
I'm making the one version, that's it. I'm also making the MAX file public, so if you want to take the model and run with it, go right ahead - just give minimum credit where due, thank you very much. :)

Here (http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/asteroid-installation-RC3.zip)'s the latest MAX file, with both geodome and regular dome. I tried to convert into POF, but the custom textures I made aren't showing up in FRED2. Any clues? They were originally 512x512 PCX, but then I tried 256x256, which still didn't work. geodome2.pcx and geodome5.pcx, IIRC.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: StratComm on August 09, 2003, 04:39:57 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
I'm making the one version, that's it. I'm also making the MAX file public, so if you want to take the model and run with it, go right ahead - just give minimum credit where due, thank you very much. :)

Here (http://www.3dap.com/hlp/staff/sandwich/modeling/asteroid-installation-RC3.zip)'s the latest MAX file, with both geodome and regular dome. I tried to convert into POF, but the custom textures I made aren't showing up in FRED2. Any clues? They were originally 512x512 PCX, but then I tried 256x256, which still didn't work. geodome2.pcx and geodome5.pcx, IIRC.


Not to sound condescending Sandwich, but are you sure you are saving the PCX files in the correct color depth?  They should be 8-bit I think.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: karajorma on August 09, 2003, 04:49:32 pm
Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
Not to sound condescending Sandwich, but are you sure you are saving the PCX files in the correct color depth?  They should be 8-bit I think.


Pretty easy to forget to do that actually :) I once spent a few minutes scratching my head over that one.
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 09, 2003, 05:12:41 pm
Quote
Originally posted by StratComm


Not to sound condescending Sandwich, but are you sure you are saving the PCX files in the correct color depth?  They should be 8-bit I think.


Uhm... no, I'm not sure... not sure at all. :lol:
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: KARMA on August 09, 2003, 06:53:59 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich
I'm making the one version, that's it. I'm also making the MAX file public, so if you want to take the model and run with it, go right ahead - just give minimum credit where due, thank you very much. :)
.


it was just referred to thosde who want more than 1 of these installations in the same campaign: just change the asteroid texture, and maybe change the geometry of the rock (pretty easy even for non experienced modelers), and the game is done:)
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 10, 2003, 12:53:04 am
Quote
Originally posted by KARMA


it was just referred to thosde who want more than 1 of these installations in the same campaign: just change the asteroid texture, and maybe change the geometry of the rock (pretty easy even for non experienced modelers), and the game is done:)



...And the intersection of installation hull with the new rock...and the position of the upper hangar bay... and possibly the lower ones as well...

Like I said - The Source File Is Out There™... go for it. :D
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Galemp on August 10, 2003, 11:10:41 am
It's easy enough to use the SCP Texture Replacement to give it a green or orange asteroid texture, on a per-mission basis.

I've compiled a very basic POF of his original model, for those who just can't wait. I'll upload it soon. I haven't started on the fiddly bits yet, so I'll use the new scene for that. Sandwich, would you mind if I reapplied some of the maps and optomized your model some?
Title: Dev Thread: Asteroid Installation
Post by: Sandwich on August 10, 2003, 02:54:41 pm
Quote
Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
I've compiled a very basic POF of his original model, for those who just can't wait. I'll upload it soon. I haven't started on the fiddly bits yet, so I'll use the new scene for that. Sandwich, would you mind if I reapplied some of the maps and optomized your model some?


There's a few updates I did to the geometry and textures in the latest version, so catch me on ICQ somtime and I'll show you what I changed, and you can show me what you're suggesting. :)