Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Stryke 9 on March 25, 2003, 07:07:18 pm
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Overly literal FS geek question 1: Okay, so the Shivans don't breathe. They appear not to photosynthesize, and a hardened spaceworthy carapace would make it hard to absorb ambient resources from their environment. And they have all sorts of plasma ducting running through them, judging from their array of weaponry. So, what do they EAT exactly? How do they breathe, or otherwise gain energy and nutrition? A metabolism that doesn't appear to need much of anything it can't fit inside a rather leggy (and I'd imagine already crowded) Shivan and yet can process and generate copious amounts of high-energy plasma, AND leave them with enough energy left over as would most certainly be needed to wage constant war on everything that moves (never mind how much energy that three-leg, bouncing-off-walls setup must take) would have to be pretty impressive. They nuclear- just pop a few uranium pills, and they're good to go? Fusion? Seems that'd require near-constant access to hydrogen and such.
So, any ideas? Have fun, and don't say something stupid like "they're fueled by HEADZlolololol!!!111oneoneone". If you want to act mentally disabled, go on over to the Hard Light forum, where they'll take care of you quite nicely.
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What if they draw their energies straight from subspace....a subspace tap in essence. That'd be pretty wild and possibly strange enough for the Shivans. They are darn sensitive about subspace nodes (they seek to control them and don't even care about planets) so maybe this is why.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Have fun, and don't say something stupid like "they're fueled by HEADZlolololol!!!111oneoneone".
Not to encourage this, but there was a fanfic written sometime ago where the author theorized that the Shivans were actually eating people, thus the reason for the invasion. I think its in the old FS Archive, but I can't remember if I ever put it up.
In any case, we all know Vasudans have a headz problem, not Shivans.
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Since Shivans obviously have advanced cybernetic capabilities, I would imagine they have some sort of plug with which to recharge all their weaponry and body enhancements. Shivans can literally recharge themselves from a cocoon in their ship. They're probably like the human 'batteries' in The Matrix; cybernetics implanted at birth, complete with a full artifical digestion system, so Shivans can live off raw power produced by ship reactors.
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Originally posted by IceFire
What if they draw their energies straight from subspace....a subspace tap in essence. That'd be pretty wild and possibly strange enough for the Shivans. They are darn sensitive about subspace nodes (they seek to control them and don't even care about planets) so maybe this is why.
I like this idea the best :yes:
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What energy's in subspace, though? I mean, if there really was a free energy source there, you'd think there'd be Terran ships using subspace jumps as an opportunity to refuel and such, if they didn't outright make subspace-based power plants. I guess all those glowing lights must mean some sort of energy (light) release, but a useful one? Seems like they're supposed to be pretty far away from the portals and such...
It'd make sense, but there'd need to be some kinda usable fuel in subspace, and there's no evidence of such.
The power thing would be handy, but it'd also be extremely inconvenient for anything not fighter combat, since they'd necessarily die if they were separated from a plug for more than, say, a few hours (giving their bio-batteries a LOT of credit, there)
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Subspace = gravity = energy.
That's logic, that is :cool:
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How is it gravity? Gravity doesn't let you teleport from place to place.
And if it IS gravity, then I'm dissapointed in the Shivans for not having some big, nasty grav beams to rip cruisers to bits in one shot.
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Well, I like the Subspace Idea and the Battery Idea. Maybe a Combination of the two.
About the subspace deal, I like to think of it the mindgames way, as subspace being a forrest, and Nodes being the entrance where you have to force your way in. That being said, I think there might be more to Subspace than just tunnels and maybe the shivans live there. If they do live there, then it'd probably have some kind of energy source/resource/etc to sustain them.
As for the battery deal, It's a good, short explaination that ties into their cybernetic supeiorority, but it doesn't say a lot about them as a whole.
In any account, I don't think they get their energy through digestion, at least as we know it. They don't even have mouths.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
And if it IS gravity, then I'm dissapointed in the Shivans for not having some big, nasty grav beams to rip cruisers to bits in one shot.
Download the Sath Subspace Rift... you'll find subspace weaponry in there.
Say, that actually makes a lot of sense. The Shivans used subspace gravity to rip Capella apart... interesting.
But still, how would Joe Shivan tap into the subspace energy? Shivans use gas miners just like the rest of us, so there's got to be some kind of fusion reactors on board.
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The ships are pretty plainly fusion-based, or at least on whatever fusion drive can fit in the FS ships (cold microfusion?). Physics isn't really FreeSpace's strong point, so I was kinda staying away from the ships and ****.
And... meh. Gravity could tear apart a star, but it'd be awfully inefficient. I mean, with the amount of energy expended there, you could just blow up everything in the system individually (or turn those Saths outward- suck everything into the sun) and still have plenty left over for the next one.
A real gravity gun would more crumple up a ship like a piece of trash paper, so long as it wasn't along the lines of a tractor beam. If you've got a mod for that, I'd be impressed.
But anyway, yeah. You still haven't explained why you think subspace (or hyperspace, if that makes it simpler for you- basically a dimensional transfer system) has anything at all to do with gravity.
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The use of miners by Shivans could just be for certain weapons. As for subspace having energy, in real space we have solar energy from billions of sources, do you see Terrans really tapping into that in FS2? Just because its there doesn't mean that everyone would care to use it or in this case even could use it.
If we know one thing about Shivans, its their superiority in their knowledge of subspace. Form of wave has energy, subspace is suggested to inherenty revolve around some form of energy as subspace drives operate by creating specific vibrations which open subspace rifts. Resonance anyone?
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You don't see a lot of shipmounted solar power, because a few miles or solar panel kinda get in the way in heavy combat, particularly since it wouldn't take any weaponry more advanced than a thrown brick (which I suppose could get complex in space) to take out the entire power system to leave a ship helpless. If a subspace tap is small enough to be used by individual Shivans, I'm sure a crude Terran version would still be smaller than, say, a full-blown fusion ring capable of about four figures of terawatts (those plasma guns would take a lot).
Incidentially, you do see solar panels on the civilian science cruiser. So much for that.
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Look, I'm too tired to explain it right now, but surely everyone knows that subspace nodes exist where you get intense gravity thingimajigs. Subspace nodes can only exist inside a solar system for this reason, etc. Subspace is inextricably linked with gravity. Play more FS.
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Last I checked, Subspace nodes were anchored by the gravity from stars, but had to be a certain distance out from them where... wait, that's L-Points. I'm thinking of a game that tried to make sense (even if it sucked), nodes can be anywhere they wanna be, and generally are. But at any rate, that's like saying planets are just giant balls of gravity, because they're attracted to things with gravity.
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Natural Subspace Nodes exist at the lagrange points between celestial bodies, i.e. Stars, Planets, Moons.
Interstellar Nodes exist between only the parent star and the largest gas giants in the outer portion of the system, where the interaction of their respective gravity feilds stresses space the most.
If we follow this reasoning, then there are interplanetary between planets and the largest moons in their system.
This makes an interesting conundrum; node size would be dictated by the strength of the gravity fields that interact to create them. It would also explain why large ships such as an Orion must attain a much higher velocity to enter subspace. They have to move faster to punch a large enough hole in the space to enter subspace.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
But at any rate, that's like saying planets are just giant balls of gravity, because they're attracted to things with gravity.
welll... they have gravity, so thats not entirely untrue. Anyway, a Shivan is what... 3-4 times as large as a human. For the breathing problem in general, maybe they breathe throuhg their skin like frogs. as to what they breathe... that has to be some heavy ****, if they can go to outer space to walk their dog. or wait, maybe they do need /insert shivan breathing thingamajig here/ to live, but they have a biological system so advanced, that they either need very little of /insert shivan breathing thingamajig here/ to live, or can store in amounts that makes them capable of spacewalks. or both
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Originally posted by Liberator
Natural Subspace Nodes exist at the lagrange points between celestial bodies, i.e. Stars, Planets, Moons.
Lagrange points?
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Lagrange points?
The Italian-French mathematician Josef Lagrange discovered five special points in the vicinity of two orbiting masses where a third, smaller mass can orbit at a fixed distance from the larger masses. More precisely, the Lagrange Points mark positions where the gravitational pull of the two large masses precisely cancels the centripetal acceleration required to rotate with them. Those with a mathematical flair can follow this link to a derivation of Lagrange's result.
Of the five Lagrange points, three are unstable and two are stable. The unstable Lagrange points - labelled L1, L2 and L3 - lie along the line connecting the two large masses. The stable Lagrange points - labelled L4 and L5 - form the apex of two equilateral triangles that have the large masses at their vertices.
**props to NASA for the relatively simple explanation**
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Shivans could use the power provided by their cap ship/fighter to live. I like this "subspace tap" idea very much but I`m gonna change it slightly.
What if a shivan has an internal subspace signal reciver that can accept a low subspace signal emenated from their ships internal structure or fighter cockpit. The signal carries the energy required to power a shivan.
They use this energy to charge a battery for emergency power if seperated and the subspace charge powers their weapons.
this would explain why
a)Shivans do not use ground troops, they bombard planets from their ships hence them not being interested in planets
b)why terrans are able to have captured shiavn specimen. they could have captured shivans from a ship so damaged that it could not generate the power signal. the shivans, living off emergency power, could not use weapons and so could be captured easily. They could be kept alive by the terrans feeding them low power from fusion reactors ect.
This also explains why their ships use gas miners to collect fuel. they need it to power the reactors of the ship from which they feed from the subspace signal.
Feeding off subspace would make their ships not need the use of gas ect as they could take power from subspace reactors...
Hang on... What if they just use the various gas particles to make ships?? I mean the terrans needed Argon (I think) to build the prometheus S cannon. Shivans do not live on planets or even seem interested in their resources.
So a shivan internal tap taking subspace or fusion, M/AM reactor energy is probably the best idea....
Unless they use Matter/Antimatter reactions themselves. A tiny reactor (the size of a matchbox) of that size that could power a single shivan with the energy also fro a plasma cannon ect. A bigger one could generate power for shivan cruisers. Again though, they need gas particles to run it.
Signal is probably quarkion or gluon in nature (well some high powered particle present in subspace)
:D :
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Lagrange points?
They are points between celestial bodies, where their gravities cancel each other out, creating a more or less stable point where an object experiences the least amount of pull. There are many Lagrange points in our solar system - for example, between the Earth and the Moon (http://www.ottisoft.com/samplact/Lagrange%20point%20L1.htm), or the points between Earth and the Sun (http://www-istp.gsfc.nasa.gov/Education/wlagran.html) - and many others, like in Jupiter's system...
Naturally, someone beat me to it - was reading other threads and didn't reload this one to check before replying. Check the links though...
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Originally posted by Terorist
There are many Lagrange points in our solar system
There are four for each pair of bodies, right?
Edit: Checked your link, I think that's right.
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JFK: I think it depends on the number and location of other nearby bodies of mass.
Stunaep: Yeah, planets have gravity. So do my nuts, just not a whole lot. That's different from being made of gravitic energy.
And the subspace thing is good and handy, if you ignore a few things, but nobody's yet explained how subspace provides energy any more than, say, a dead haddock.
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That assumes the Shivans evolved from something else... I mean if you want to try to emplain it in a realistic way (for a game).. I mean the shivans couldn't have existed like that from the beginning... Chicken and the egg...
Shivans were a biological race at one point, then did a borg and merged with machines (probably on the nano level) found that their biological needs caould be replaced (like eating) with power couplings/batteries ect.. That would lead in to your feeding off of subspace or anti-matter or whatever you want... How does that sound?
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The every day '3 legged bouncing of the wall, plasma cannon/blade weilding shivan' is a robot, not the actual life form which created them (if they exist anymore) ... or on the otherhand does it really matter, its a game get over it :D
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Originally posted by Sheepy
or on the otherhand does it really matter, its a game get over it :D
Today, random idea you thought up for this thread. Tomorrow, inkling of an idea for a mission. Next year, 10 mission campaign that everyone is applauding for its originality.
From small acorns massive oak trees grow :D
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Hear hear. :nod: That's how Deus Ex Machina came about. :D
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Uh... yeah.
What I wanna know, why is everyone into the subspace idea when there are all sorts of other solutions that would actually make sense without you having to make up all sorts of other stuff that doesn't really fit in the universe. Things such as nuclear/inorganic power, some sort of modified photosynthesis (maybe they're hiding a big ol' wing of photosynthesizing membrane under all that armor- light's readily available even in deep space), or even that they just eat normally like we do and a LOT when they're not blowing stuff up.
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Because we want the Shivans to stay enigmatic and far more advanced. As Bosch said, born from the flux of subspace. A more normal thing like fusion doesn't really do them justice (remember what happened to the Borg).
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It'd be hard for me to remember that, since I don't know what happened to the Borg.
Mysterious is well and good, nonsensical isn't. If you can't explain it without an improbable, self-contradictory theory that ends up turning a fairly straightforward interdimensional wormhole (of the sort that's been used in SF for fifty years) into a big net made of gravity, which is somehow inexplicably more useful in that form, it's not worth considering. Particularly since you're given a lot of leeway in physics by the game.
I mean, hell, I could make a more coherent argument for why Bosch is in fact a caramel apple than has been presented here so far.
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Well then, make your argument. I'm curious. :)
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Argument as to what exactly? That they could potentially consume regular biomatter as food? I hardly think that needs much explaining, although it'd be kinda a low-energy source for such a demanding alien. Nuclear could possibly work, if they didn't operate under a cellular structure like us- or had diamond-dense stomachs to absorb the gamma rays. That'd be an excellent food source for something that had evolved in space, or on a mineral-rich but barren and atmosphereless rock like the Shivans may well have- probably a planet much like Mercury.
But that's too easy. Go back to the subspace thing- I was having fun *****ing there for a while.
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The Shivans we're familar with could have been like that from the beginnings of their species. Likely they were engineered to be at home in a Zero G enviroment.
As far the 'no breathing' thing, we breathe to take advantage of the relatively large amount of energy released in an oxidation reaction. We would be relatively immobile if we relied on direct radiation, as our bodies are not set up for it.
The Shivans on the other hand look like they were designed to live and work and war in space.
The idea that they somehow feed on subspace energies is born out by their total focus on controlling the subspace nodes where the fabric of space is the weakest. Their defending their food source.
Also likely, the race that geneered the Shivans were the first to be wiped out by their creations. An act of divine retribution, certainly. But also punishment for creating so fragile a species. Any act that damages or destroys Subspace could, and probably would, be looked on as an act of war.
Using this reasoning, we can assume that the standard Subspace Drives and/or Subspace travel damages Subspace in some way. The Shivans unique connection to subspace means that their drives are different from their Terran or Vasudan counterparts somehow, rendering them safe to use for travel. It would also explair why the Shivans wipe out species that have discovered Subspace Travel. They are being poisoned. What they have failed to understand is that they aren't giving the various species time to discover the flaw and fix it.
If the Shivans are connected to subspace so closely they might not even be capable of understand Humans or Vasudans or that there is another way to solve their dilemma, by providing data proving the existence of a flaw in our design and allowing us to correct it.
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Maybe the Shivans are extra-dimensional... well, I mean, we already know that this universe supports some number of dimensions beyond those we can sense (something like nine? I can't remember), so it's no stretch that the Shivans can sense these other dimensions. Perhaps harnessing subspace energies is a simple process in these other dimensions, somewhat like absorbing energy from the Sun in our universe... just by radiation. Similarly, transferring these energies from Shivan ships would also be a simple process, as demonstrated by the Shivans and what they did to the Capella star.
Well, anyway, I don't know any proper scientific theory, so this probably doesn't make much sense at all.
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Originally posted by Liberator
The Shivans we're familar with could have been like that from the beginnings of their species. Likely they were engineered to be at home in a Zero G enviroment.
As far the 'no breathing' thing, we breathe to take advantage of the relatively large amount of energy released in an oxidation reaction. We would be relatively immobile if we relied on direct radiation, as our bodies are not set up for it.
The Shivans on the other hand look like they were designed to live and work and war in space.
The idea that they somehow feed on subspace energies is born out by their total focus on controlling the subspace nodes where the fabric of space is the weakest. Their defending their food source.
Also likely, the race that geneered the Shivans were the first to be wiped out by their creations. An act of divine retribution, certainly. But also punishment for creating so fragile a species. Any act that damages or destroys Subspace could, and probably would, be looked on as an act of war.
Using this reasoning, we can assume that the standard Subspace Drives and/or Subspace travel damages Subspace in some way. The Shivans unique connection to subspace means that their drives are different from their Terran or Vasudan counterparts somehow, rendering them safe to use for travel. It would also explair why the Shivans wipe out species that have discovered Subspace Travel. They are being poisoned. What they have failed to understand is that they aren't giving the various species time to discover the flaw and fix it.
If the Shivans are connected to subspace so closely they might not even be capable of understand Humans or Vasudans or that there is another way to solve their dilemma, by providing data proving the existence of a flaw in our design and allowing us to correct it.
Yes definately along my line of reasoning. I doubt that Terrans and Vasudans are destroying subspace but more likely disrupting it in such a way that makes the Shivans unhappy. Perhaps they are drawn to centers of conflict because subspace gets used alot during conflicts.
I have a pretty good feeling that Shivans don't even recognize Terrans, Vasudans, Ancients or anyone else that they have destroyed or attempted to destroy as a civilization or a species or anything...I largely consider the Shivans to be the giant that didn't know he stepped on the microscopic bacteria.
Blowing up suns seems like no problem to them and I have another feeling that perhaps they are re-arranging subspace in the galaxy by doing that.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Argument as to what exactly?
Originally posted by Stryke 9
I could make a more coherent argument for why Bosch is in fact a caramel apple than has been presented here so far.
:nod:
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I have to agree in some conceptual belief that if the Shivans draw energy from subspace that is literally saying they eat subspace in some formailty if thats even possible...:nod:
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My personal opinion is that the Shivans live in or somehow need the Nebula as seen on the other side of the Knossos. I think they wiped out the Ancients and destroyed most of their Suns. Thats why there was a Nebula there and now the Shivans have created a new one in Capella.
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I know this got bumped pretty well, but I like this kinda crap.
The shivans have to reconize us on some level because their fighters, desytroyers, etc. are designed for combat with other spacefaring civilizations.(Except for the Sath; science ship?) They also deliberately annihilated terresterial settlements. They seem linked with subspace some how, but they could also just come around once races begin aggressive expansion through the galaxy(galatic peacekeepers?)
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One thing has occured to me... Perhaps they don't extract energy from subspace, but use it as an energy conduit much like ships use it as a matter conduit. It would fit, as it could serve as a means of communication, and COULD tie into those funny subspace relays (I forget what they're called, they're the funny looking things with the crystal in the middle and the rotating arms, and have big explosions). The concept of a hive-mind might be able to be tied into it as well. But anyway, perhaps the energy is actually created somewhere, injected into subspace, and extracted at places where a full-sized generator would be inconvenient.
Just some thoughts.
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Subspace is the only thing that makes intersteller communications viable. We use it, the Vasudans use it, and so do the shivans. I think the "Comm Nodes" were for something a little bit more long range than a star to star transmission. The energy through subspace idea is an interesting idea. Maybe the Saths are relay devices for huge amounts of energy(like the amount to destroy a star).
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Originally posted by tEAbAG
Subspace is the only thing that makes intersteller communications viable. We use it, the Vasudans use it, and so do the shivans. I think the "Comm Nodes" were for something a little bit more long range than a star to star transmission. The energy through subspace idea is an interesting idea. Maybe the Saths are relay devices for huge amounts of energy(like the amount to destroy a star).
Yeah, I know that subspace is the base of communications for all the species, I just stated the part in my post about communications rather badly. I was thinking of a more involved communications as in, as I said, a hive mind. Comm nodes could indeed be for extremely long range communications, but they could ALSO be devices designed to relay HUGE amounts of information through subspace (I think a hive mind would require substantual bandwidth[:p]). Of course, they could be for both purposes too.
But, if communications through subspace is possible, I would think that transmitting power through it should be possible too. After all, the subspace signal would have to transmit energy too. It's like the difference between a phone line and a power line. They both use the same/similiar media, and they both carry energy, but they serve very different purposes...
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Points to species 8472 :eek2:
Have people also considered its unexplanatory in this day and age of technology and sciences. Maybe we have yet to advance, especially in science area to understand the workings of a fictionous storyline partially based on small pockets of science.
Then we will truly grasp the concept and workings of the Shivans OR we can wait for Adam to come up with more great storyline - whichever way goes that both take a long time...
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Shivans probably are purely robotic creatures with a higly advanced AI system (looking from MindGames point of view). So, GE's idea is probably the best, with the Shivans being powered by some sort of emergency power cell with main energy source from some sort of subspace pulses. The ship could be constantly emitting some sort of pulse stream which could be used by the Shivans. Are the Shivans easily captured when the ship is disabled?:confused:
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They aren't robotic in MG. More like a normal species that have been hardwired to have a single main goal.
As for the Shivans being easily captured once a ship is disabled. Have you seen Hall Fight (an FS1 cutscene in which marines board a shivan ship and get slaughtered)? I think the answer is a resounding no. They aren't easy to capture.
But anyway I'm glad that even people new to the board have heard of us :)
Welcome to HLP Apocalypse. They'll be people wondering by in a bit to shoot you with the welcoming beam. If you haven't already have a quick look at my FAQ. There's a lot of stuff in there that would be helpful to someone new to the community or game.
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They aren't robotic in MG. More like a normal species that have been hardwired to have a single main goal.
Oops! You are right! And, no, I haven't seen Hall Fight. I never did have FS1.
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Pity. It's one of the best cutscenes in FS1 or FS2.
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Originally posted by karajorma
But anyway I'm glad that even people new to the board have heard of us :)
I've been browsing FreeSpaceWatch & HLP long before joining the forums. ;)
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ok, just for fun, since I'm fed up with this one:
I challenge anybody to find pics or videos of shivans bouncing or running off/on the walls. watch the hall fight cutscene again, folks :doubt:. they sometimes grab the ceiling. period.
end of parenthesys.
as for the energy, I think V just didn't care, as much as there's no room for energy in a T800 or a T1000, or a nuke reactor in a battlemech, or any kind of engine in a tie fighter ( ion engine, yeah right, things as big as a TV? geeze, the Xwing is so ridiculous next to that then ).
as soon as consistancy goes, freespace is just loosy.
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Maybe they just eat. Why not? Simple, yet effective.
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With what mouth?
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
With what mouth?
with the one you haven't seen but might be there? I challenge you to find the mouth of a spider for exemple :p ( heh, I challenge a lot :p )
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Nope. I say they are cyborgs, albeit primarily machine than creature. If you want a more biological explanation, the mechanical system could artificially produce the required bioingredients for the creature to absorb and utilize. The waste products could be converted into energy for the robotic sections. We already know the Shivans are using highly efficient subspace drives, so why can't they have highly efficient batteries?