Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: tEAbAG on April 07, 2003, 07:59:29 pm
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How is the GTVA governed?
Got curious after reading Stunaep's newspaper thing.
I know from the techroom stuff that the Security Council, the General Assembly, and Vasudan Imperium make up the GTVA.
The Security Council, I think, is a confederacy kinda like our UN (although far less impotent:D ) and the Imperium is a older style empire constitutional monarchy type thingie. I'm not sure what exactly the General Assembly is exactily and I can't figure out who all these things are consolidated under or if they arn't how they could ever get anything done considering the huge amount of bureaucracy that would be involved.
Any ideas?
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Eh, I assume they represent branches of the government (seeing as the UN includes the Security Council and the General Assembly).
The Security Council is the main body commanding and controlling all aspects of military issues and keeping security in the systems (classification of information, dealing with pirates, etc).
The General Assembly would assume all other forms of government (economic, social, regional disagreements) and legislation.
The Vasudan Imperium... uh... decides who's Headz are to be taken next and who gets all the fishies. :p
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The General Assembly are the Terran Member Worlds.
The Vasudan Imperium is composed of the Vasudan worlds.
I would compare the Security Council to the United States Senate, where each member has an equal say. Probably 10 or 20 representatives from each member.
So the GTVA is a Tricameral governmental system.
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The way I see it the Vasudan Imperium will be a quasi-independant body, with its own laws and stuff, but must answer to the overall GTVA council for major decsisions.
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I see a mix of Cannikin and Liberator's ideas. The General Assembly represent the Terrans and the Vasudan Imperium represent the Vasudans, with each being much like the Senate where representatives of their respective worlds would be a part of it. Each would meet seperately and then would have major joint meetings to discuss the social and economical organization.
The Security Council would be a select body from each of the two races where they would meet about the security of the entire federation.
That's how the UN is basically run I think.
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The GTVA is, above all else, an alliance, so its in fact two seperate governments who work together to handle threats to both parties aka the Shivans. The Security Council is little more than the group who decides when and why the articles of the alliance are necessary, then sells the idea to the two independent governments.
The Terrans have the old core of the GTA to run off of, which was likely more of a confederation than a federation. Of course, after losing Sol, they probably leaned much further into federation status, sort of like the US, though more likely a parlimentary style government, except with an elected President of some type.
The Vasudans have an empire, ruled by an Emperor. They had a large scale elected government, until it was desolved after the Great War (probably over the parliment wanting to reignite the war with the GTA, something that GTA officials would have also tried to pursue if Sol hadn't been cut off). Thus, beyond very local officals, people are placed in positions of power by order of the Emperor.
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That was more the case with the old FS1 alliance. The GTVA would have to be an organization in itself, since they always talk of how the Beta Aquilae Convention gives full authority in T-V controlled space to the GTVA; a mere alliance of two distinct regimes would not make sense here. It is supposed to be alliance of species rather than one of the old governments. The GTA as a single unit was effectively dissolved when it broke into the regional system factions in the post-FS1 period, and by FS2 time it was more or less part of history. Also, the Security Council controls all of the military operations and naval fleets of both species and is thus probably the most important one for campaign designers.
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Goddamn I hate when I can't find my lighter:mad:
Okay, so the little graphic in the techroom wasn't entirely accurate. The General Assembly is the ole' GTA; the Vasudan Imperium is basicly the Emperor; Both are overridden when it comes to military dealings by the Security Council, made up of equal #'s of terrans and zogs selected by their respective govs. How much autonomy is excersized in the use of their fleets during normal times (no shivans in sight)? Or did the second great war completely interagrate the fleets under the Security Council?
(sorry I'm such a nerd ;) )
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That's hard to say. Anythings possible.
After the loss of the most heavily inhabited system in the alliance, it would stand to reason that the alliance would stick closer together than ever before. But such closeness tends to provoke hard feelings in both parties.
As far as the actual status of the Alliance, that, as always, falls to the Vasudan emperor. He represents his entire people, they do what he says, much like the Egyptians circa 2500 bc. If one being could be said to represent the entire alliance, it would be the Vasudan emperor. The danger of the immeadiate future most like lies less with the Shivans than with the Emperor himself. For if he fails to train his heir to think and believe as he does there could be a major shift of power in GTVA space. I mean their technology has always been superior to Terran Tech, and with their economic advantage coming from the first Great War they could probably add most of Terran space to their empire in a few short years.
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Originally posted by tEAbAG
Goddamn I hate when I can't find my lighter:mad:
WTF?
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Superior tech? The Anubis, Aten, Mentu, and half-a-dozen other things that I can't think of right now, were steaming piles. I think they had better energy production and distrobution tech, but other than that the terrans were better over-all.
I don't think the vasudans worship their emperor like a god, they would most likely reinstate a parliament if they ended up with a bad emperor. Thats just too much power for a ****-up to have. I'd be willing to bet that they've gone back and forth more than a few times in history.
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If Vasudan stuff sucks so much how come the Terrans were losing the 14-Year War when the first game comes in?
Operation: Thresher was a complete disaster with 500+ pilots, 2 destroyers and multiple other ships having been destroyed.
I'm not saying the Vasudan stuff is all that much better than Terran stuff I'm just saying that overall Vasudan TECH is superior to Terran.
And as far as the Vasudans worshiping the Emperor.
When I compared them to the ancient Egyptians, I was comparing how Khonsu II has all power in the same way that the ancient pharohs did. His word is law. This further enforces the ALIENESS of the Vasudans. They gladly accept an all powerful ruler, and look on it as a source of order in chaotic times. They look at how the Terrans run their societies, with their Senates and Congresses and Parliments and they see chaos.
The Vasudans homeworld is mostly desert IIRC, it's their experience that anything in a desert that does not have some form of order about it's routines dies.
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Whazzit- the Horus, I think, the fast one- was better than most any FS ship. For that matter, in FS2 when you get access to "Vasudan" technology, they're far and away the better force. The Mekhu compared to the Subach is like an automatic rifle next to a cap gun.
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When I compared them to the ancient Egyptians, I was comparing how Khonsu II has all power in the same way that the ancient pharohs did. His word is law. This further enforces the ALIENESS of the Vasudans. They gladly accept an all powerful ruler, and look on it as a source of order in chaotic times. They look at how the Terrans run their societies, with their Senates and Congresses and Parliments and they see chaos.
It is specifically stated in the FS ref bible though that Vasudans are not all that different from Terrans, and particularly so in politics (the Shivans are the true aliens). You may well be right about that stuff anyway, but I think that this need for order is more due to the VP collapse in FS1, which could have caused the Vasudan populace to support a strong central authority as the only way to avoid the demise of their species and as a psychological buttress to deal with desperate times. I suppose that the VPE is viewed as a failed institution, so many of the things associated with it are also going to be seen as bad.
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Originally posted by Liberator
If Vasudan stuff sucks so much how come the Terrans were losing the 14-Year War when the first game comes in?
Operation: Thresher was a complete disaster with 500+ pilots, 2 destroyers and multiple other ships having been destroyed.
Who says they were losing? IIRC Operation Thresher was a major push into vasudan space. Just cause the humans lost that battle doesn`t mean that they were losing. The fact that they were able to make that kind of push suggests that both sides were at the very least stalemated or that the Terrans were winning.
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I believe that it was a stalemate. If a war had been going on for so long it could be little else.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
I believe that it was a stalemate. If a war had been going on for so long it could be little else.
I believe so too.
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Well there you are then, everyone is happy!
Except Eyore and Marvin, of course.
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i also think the GTA has some aspects of Starship Troopers in it. If you committed treason and returned to base (?) then you "lose all rank and citizenship in the GTA"
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Originally posted by Liberator
Operation: Thresher was a complete disaster with 500+ pilots, 2 destroyers and multiple other ships having been destroyed.
Whoa! Where are you getting that garbage. Allow me to quote the campaign briefing:
Operation Thresher in the Antares system did not proceed as planned. Terran Command estimates Terran losses at 504 pilots dead, fourteen missing and presumed dead.
It says nothing about losing destroyers and other capital ships. They said "it didn't go as planned." According to the tech room losing a destroyer is "a major defeat." Not going as planned is not a major defeat.
Losing destroyers was NOT common during the 14 Year War, at all. Don't pass around false information please and thank you.
The Vasudans are the stronger of the two because the lost the least. Yeah, they lost Vasuda Prime, but big deal. It was a dump, with most of its water considered undrinkable by Vasudan standards. That's the opinions of the natives, which means it was awful. Hell, its a good bet the Vasudans went into space simply to get the resources to survive. That said, most of the Vasudan's major production facilities and resources were off world, where the Terrans had everything in Sol, and when they lost that they went to hell.
I agree with CP's assesment of the Emperor and his status with his people. Once he felt he had the power (and populace backing) he dissolved the senate and strengthed the newly formed GTVA.
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Antares is one jump from Vasuda, so even if the GTA lost that battle the were definently putting major pressure on the zogs.
For all intents and porposes, the Emperor is large and in charge of the known universe right now. Even the terrans have to go along with what he says, because they cannot afford to piss off their only friend in a dark and scary galaxy. Terrans are pretty undermanned and under powered with the loss of the (likely) most populated and developed system in the GTA. Do the terrans have a friendly face to rally around (besides bosch and his spark plugs:D) or are they ruled by a faceless comitee (which could be bad)?
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Originally posted by PhReAk
i also think the GTA has some aspects of Starship Troopers in it. If you committed treason and returned to base (?) then you "lose all rank and citizenship in the GTA"
That's actually more in line with the Royal Navy Articles of War, at least as of 1759:
Royal Navy Articles of War, 1759 Revision:
Every person in the fleet, who through cowardice, negligence, or disaffection, shall in time of action withdraw or keep back, or not come into the fight or engagement, or shall not do his utmost to take or destroy every ship which it shall be his duty to engage, and to assist and relieve all and every of His Majesty's ships, or those of his allies, which it shall be his duty to assist and relieve, every such person so offending, and being convicted thereof by the sentence of a court martial, shall suffer death.
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I also seem to remember someone saying the the odd ship classifications in FS2 were the result of them using the old British WWI designations where a destroyer is bigger than a cruiser rather than the modern ones.
Maybe someone at [V] really liked their British naval history.
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Originally posted by Liberator
If Vasudan stuff sucks so much how come the Terrans were losing the 14-Year War when the first game comes in?
Operation: Thresher was a complete disaster with 500+ pilots, 2 destroyers and multiple other ships having been destroyed.
The GTA wasn't loosing the 14 Years War. Tresher was a failure because the operation called for an attack on the most heavily fortified Vasudan System (Vasuda) in an inadequate way. The fact that the GTA could launch an attack on the Vasuda System speaks for itself. Had there be no Shivans the Terrans would ahve eventually won the war.
As for the Emperor and his relation to the Empire.
Yes, Khonsu II dissolved the Parliament, but I doubt he completely dissolved democracy inside the empire. What he probably did was dissolving democracy on the macro-scale of things while keeping it on the micro-scale of the nation. So Khonsu probably appoints his closest kin as 'guardian' over a planet. This Guardian then either appoints a cabinet or presides over an elected cabinet. Think a Constitutional Monarchy but with more powers for the monarch than is usual in European constitutional monarchies. So it's most likely that everything on a planetary level is elected except the guardian which is appointed.
As for the relation betweent the Vasudans and the Terrans. Probably something in the form of the EU. The Terran Nations (those mentioned in the tech briefing) as they came into existance after the Great War were never subdued. With the data we have we can assume that they joined the GTVA voluntarily and as such were never disbanded. Add to that the Vasudan Empire and the fact that they have a common foreign policy (not that there's much need for one) and a common defence policy (much needed) this leads me to suspect that they have an EU-like organisation:
e.g. The nations retain their souvereignity except where BETAC applies.
The nations share the military and the costs for that military
The nations share the defence-industry and R&D complext, as well as the costs that go with it
The nations, via the Security Council, share the same foreign policy (see the NTF case) and the same military goals (see NTF and Shivan Campaigns)
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Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
The GTA wasn't loosing the 14 Years War. Tresher was a failure because the operation called for an attack on the most heavily fortified Vasudan System (Vasuda) in an inadequate way. The fact that the GTA could launch an attack on the Vasuda System speaks for itself. Had there be no Shivans the Terrans would ahve eventually won the war.
I would have said that the war would have continued for many more years actually. Even though the Terrans were pushing against Vasuda I doubt they would have taken it for a while.
That said the above is my view of the war without Alpha 1. Once the terrans fielded Alpha 1 they probably would have won the war within a month :D
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Keep in mind - determinining who was winning a 14 year long war 32 years before FS2 can't really be any indicator of the technology levels of the two sides in the FS2 Time Era. Look at the world 32 years ago - Not my area of historical expertise but I think Russia was in a lot different a situation than it is now, same as Japan, China and a lot of other nations. 3 decades is plenty of time for certain areas of technology to advance more than others.
Really though, it makes sense that the Vasudans are the better species technologically. As has been said, Vasuda was probably fairly resource short, and, unlike earth, actually fairly hostile to life (meaning a fair number of Vasudans would have left as soon as it became possible, meaning their core was actually probably several planets, probably spread over several systems. The Terrans, on the other hand, probably had a lot of research and a massive population base on Earth and in Sol colonies. When they lost them, they probably lost a hell of a lot more than the Vasudans did, plus of course, we know the Vasudans made a quicker recovery, and they were solidified almost immediately post Great War, unlike the Terrans who splintered. Everything after the Great war(well, except the NTF) was going Vasuda's way.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Really though, it makes sense that the Vasudans are the better species technologically.
Yep, especially if one takes into account the possible links with the Ancients. (I once made a post on that on the old VBB, was quite nice, used only canon data too)
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Oh yeah. I seem to remember some scuttlebutt on the vwbb about the vasudans being an ancient Ancient( :) ) splinter colony, or something to that effect. The vasudans have had the great destroyer legend all through out their history. Could be coincedince, but I think vasudan space overlaps Ancient space. Are the vasudans the ancients, or were they a primitive race that had contact with the shattered survivors of the Ancients?
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i believe they where Primitives:nod:
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I'm pretty sure the Ancients were those things I found in my icebox this morning. They tasted great heated and with a pound of salt.
Yeah, there's something in the FS Bible or summat about the Vasudans having been one of the races under the Ancients' empire. Naturally, they forgot all about it. Silly Vasudans.
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Well it was 8000 years ago. I mean look at how many civilizations have fallen on Earth in 8000 years. It's easy to see how the Vasudans would forget stuff like that.
Not so long ago(1300 years give or take) humans destroyed nearly 4000 years of recorded history because it was considered heretical or out right blasphemous.
We're making guesses about historical events because the Church wanted minions not servants.
But I digress, 8000 years is a long time for a species that only lives 70-80 years on average.