Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: SadisticSid on April 15, 2003, 04:03:50 pm
-
Maybe I didn't do enough searching, but I couldn't find anything on the forum about modularity for third party mods. I had a look at Bridge Commander the other day - some team had replaced all the static structures with a system that loaded in script files for each ship, weapon, script and audio/visual data. Could the same be done for Freespace?
It would mean, for example, that modders could make TBL files for each individual ship or weapon, thus eliminating the need for users to edit their files and introduce hard-to-find typos which broke the parser. If the tables could be broken down into smaller files, and only the error-free ones loaded, it would make problem diagnosis a lot simpler. And of course, it'd be great for newbies to integrate small, single-ship/weapon mods into their existing game.
-
:wtf: The point being?
-
He explained the point. Read the post again.
-------------------------
Diamond Geezer lives in Leicester, England
-
I did. Three times. He just seems to be making more work for everyone and this method clutters up the hard drive.
-
You`d need a way to turn certain mods on or off and you`d need a way to script that or installing something like TBP would take you ages turning mods on and off.
-
Exactly - more work.
-
Good idea for people who play solo missions that use various mini-mods.
Really - and I mean really and truely - hideous notion for larger campaigns which rely on specific mod sets. Good example: Inferno.
-
Originally posted by Killfrenzy
I did. Three times. He just seems to be making more work for everyone and this method clutters up the hard drive.
Oh, absolutely. It's a daft idea for the most part. But he did explain what the point was. It was just a pointless point :)
----------------------
Diamond Geezer can't write C++
-
wasn't there the possibility to load mods from different data folders using a commandline? i don't see why you should spend ages installing/disinstalling mods with this system, if you put each mod in a specific directory
this specific tables system would probably make easyer the editing. question is, instead, if this gain is worth the work to make it possible
-
To be honest I doubt we need this system. It works fine in I-war II where it lets you replace the ships already in the game but in FS2 a new ship isn`t supported unless someone writes a mission for it (in which case the mission writer will probably distribute tables for the campaign) or if it replaces an existing FS2 ship (which would probably cause all kinds of problems for this system.
To be honest I think it's a huge amount of hassle for the SCP and for the campaign designers and it will only benifit a few transient players (cause most of us already know how to install a mod and for those who don`t I spent several hours working on a section of the FAQ that would explain it).
-
Oh please stop beating around the bush! And that sheep Stryke9!
Take his idea and put it into large MODs context....
(which im sure someone sugested before)
Just add support from mulitple .tbls in a 'ships folder or somthing, big mods could still use single .tbls/.vps but small mods and testing/mini-mods could use this generic, total and 'copy&paste' less addon function.
Any old (or young in my case) Jedi Master could see the possiblitlitys....;7
-
I disagree. It takes 5 seconds to cut and paste a new table entry. It would take the SCP guys several man-hours if not days to implement this. Time better spent elsewhere I think.
-
The reson I dont DL much stuff is becasue to get it working I have to spend ages putting it in the .tbls and with weapons, ship, stars, music, etc etc on some things *looks around* ,mabey, this would be nice
It IS much better for bug testing
Your just jelous you didn't think of it first....
if 500,000 people used 5 seconds to cut and apste - thats 2.5 million seconds which is 700 hours.....;7
if only 10,000 people d/l the MOD thats 13 hours! well worth it!:yes:
if only 1 person d/ls th MOD - its crap... ah damn!:doubt:
P.S. I dont care if you prove me wrong or say anything about relative time and coder's absolute time!
-
By the gods, you're an arrogant bugger aren't you?
--------------------
Diamond Geezer's favourite colour is grey
-
I'm speechless...
I'm seriously wondering if we should start restricting access to the SCP forum. Not exclusive to coders only, but rather a permission system, where you have to get permission from an admin for posting access. Permission would be based on the member's maturity and sensibility elsewhere, and would only affect posting, not viewing.
-
Maybe Shrike would allow the 'moderators must approve posts' option? But that'd be a fair bit of bother for Inquisitor and IceFire...
---------------------
Diamond Geezer can't work Truespace for love nor money
-
Most ship mods only require that an entry be added to ships.tbl and perhaps sounds.tbl, weapons mods usually only require pasting entries into weapons.tbl and again possibly sounds.tbl. Unless you're installing a full blown mod pack (in which case you can usually just use tbls they provide), theres nothing to it.
As for debugging, you comment entries out until you isolate the error. Simple isn't it? :nod:
-
How about having something like mission-specific table data? In other words, there would be a section in the mission file itself that specifies any table changes for that mission only, and these settings override anything in the master tables. How easy this would be to implement really depends on how FS2 reads the table info (which I have no idea about); perhaps it could be done in a manner similar to the special explosion or texture replacement functions (or the hitpoint feature that I have been whining about :D). The C&C games all have this sort of feature, if any of you are familiar with mission designing for those games.
-
CP, do you mean the ability to make a modified ship within a mission? For example, have an Ace's custom modified Herc or something have an extra bit of speed or armor?
Implemented within Fred, that could potentially be a powerful feature for people making campaigns.
-
Sounds great. It can be used just like the special explosion editor: special properties. You can set the armor and shield HP and a whole bunch of other stuff...
-
Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER
Oh please stop beating around the bush! And that sheep Stryke9!
Da hell? Dis tread be wack, yo.
Goober: Probably not such a hot idea. The mods and admins have enough work as it is without getting emails every time someone on this board wants to take a piss, and it'd just all aroudn be an inefficient way to go. Nobody would want to post any more. I think just enstating a little common sense here would do the trick- let everyone know that this is a (relatively) serious board, and maybe if someone starts spamming here in earnest a bit of a heavier hand with the banning. After all, there's the Hard Light forum for spam...
As to the rest of this thread- well, so long as the game can load POFs, etc. from multiple VP files (I haven't messed with FS in a long time, I don't know whether it can or can't), I really don't see the problem. I think maybe Sid's running on the assumption that it can't. But table files are included with most every mod, and copying and pasting is simple enough, so yeah.
-
CP, do you mean the ability to make a modified ship within a mission? For example, have an Ace's custom modified Herc or something have an extra bit of speed or armor?
Yes, that would be one possible usage of this. An extra section can be added in between the #Music and #End sections of the mission file, for example:
#Table overrides
$ships.tbl ; one section for each table
$Name: GTF Hercules Mark II ; this would tell the game which ship to apply the changes to
$POF file: [new model file]
$Max Velocity: 0.0, 0.0, 70.0
$Hitpoints: 400
(this is probably nonsense as I'm no programmer, but you should get the idea)
It may be necessary to include the rest of the data for the ship as well even if it is unchanged, depending on how the game reads ships.tbl.
I'm not sure how exactly this might be made to work, but it would add enormous flexibility for mission designers. Actually, I personally would be quite satisfied even if only the hitpoint setting could be changed around; I can then delete all those duplicate entries in the PI ships.tbl that were created just for a hitpoint hack for a certain mission. :p :D
-
This discussion came up once many moons ago. At the time it was pointed out that the table files are parsed only once, when the engine first starts. It was further remarked that having the tables not be parsed until loading the mission would cause difficulties and longer loading times. It would also cause malfunctions in the tech room, and likely send pilot files into a tailspin.
However, coopting the special-explosion code for changng hit-points might still be a possibility.
-
You said tables are parsed only when loading, what about missions - or did you mean all game files period?
-
I'm pretty sure that the custom hitpoints thingy would be quite easy to implement, and it's on my list of things to do. There's a substantial amount of code in the special exp routine that can be used for this.
-
I think the current method of using a command line to specify a data tree is very effective and probably better and definately easier than using this system.
I see its merits...a game I used to MOD (DarkReign) had this feature too.
-
I was thinking of Inferno primarily when contemplating this. Yeah, I'll agree the time could be better spent resolving bugs, adding additional functionality and so on, but it'd be useful for just copying and pasting individual files for each ship/group of ships when Woomeister decides to make a table change, and it requires downloading the whole kit and kaboodle again. :)
You`d need a way to turn certain mods on or off and you`d need a way to script that or installing something like TBP would take you ages turning mods on and off.
I didn't mention turning mods off at all. All that I'm suggesting happen is any file in maybe a subdirectory of tables (ships, perhaps, for the ship TBLs) would be parsed when the game started up.
Exactly - more work.
No, less work. I didn't say that the ships.tbl should be split into smaller files. And it would mean that mod-makers would no longer require existing TBLs to be edited.
I think the current method of using a command line to specify a data tree is very effective and probably better and definately easier than using this system.
No no... I didn't mean for it to determine which mods are included when the game loads - simply that it loads and parses anything in the relevant place with a .tbl extension. I'm sure the existing method for selecting which data directory is used could happily coexist with what I'm suggesting.
-
Originally posted by SadisticSid
but it'd be useful for just copying and pasting individual files for each ship/group of ships when Woomeister decides to make a table change, and it requires downloading the whole kit and kaboodle again. :)
Why not have a bunch of VPs set up by type? IE you have a VP for the Inferno tables, a VP for the models, a VP for the maps, a VP for the interface art, and so on. Then each VP is updated individually, so you don't have to download all the hi-res maps and sound effects just to get one table change.
Just my little contribution to help solve the bigger problems. :)
-
That'd probably make things worse, actually. :p
EDIT: This is because the amount of model, map and interface data is enormous in the Inferno mod (257MB in VP form at the moment, and still growing).
-
With TBP, we'll be using a /tbp data tree system with our own icon on the desktop or on the start menu. That should achieve activating and deactivating the MOD at will. Just pick the right icon :)
-
Originally posted by SadisticSid
I was thinking of Inferno primarily when contemplating this. Yeah, I'll agree the time could be better spent resolving bugs, adding additional functionality and so on, but it'd be useful for just copying and pasting individual files for each ship/group of ships when Woomeister decides to make a table change, and it requires downloading the whole kit and kaboodle again. :)
I didn't mention turning mods off at all. All that I'm suggesting happen is any file in maybe a subdirectory of tables (ships, perhaps, for the ship TBLs) would be parsed when the game started up.
No, less work. I didn't say that the ships.tbl should be split into smaller files. And it would mean that mod-makers would no longer require existing TBLs to be edited.
No no... I didn't mean for it to determine which mods are included when the game loads - simply that it loads and parses anything in the relevant place with a .tbl extension. I'm sure the existing method for selecting which data directory is used could happily coexist with what I'm suggesting.
#
THIS is exactly what i was trying to say! But he said it much much better!
One thing, im my case I would use it more for bug testing - enter a single ship or a bunch of ships (I would also want this to be suported rather than just single ships) into a certain .tbl slam it into the dir and see if it crashes, you then have a much smaller MUCH easier bug testing base. You could even seperate them to see which one kills it rather than searching 200+ ships for errors
(ever taken a break from MODing to come back to an error and frgot which ship you were MODing? ARRRGGHHH!!!!!).
And it seems my joke at the end makes people think Im arrogent...
True my dislexiya (I can't even spell that!) and 'other' problems do make me say slightly arogent things, but I try and keep it in check. However it seems my humor (which is not very good, I know) is what it seems people picked up on... Do I really have to label ALL my (non-)houmorus comments [LAW HUMOR]This is one of my jokes[/LAW HUMOR]?:(
[LAW HUMOR]
not very observant I would say but then Im 'disabled':(
(bet that made ya feel bad!)[/LAW HUMOR]
:rolleyes:
-
Ba-dum-tish!
Sorry, dude, but you just walked right into that one.
-
Well if you want to argue the easier changes, what purpose do VPs serve? Heck, why even bother with folders when you can have all your files right there in front of you so that you don't have to go through the oh-so-great trouble of double clicking on folder icons? Is hitting ctrl + c and ctrl + v really that difficult?
:rolleyes:
-
If table changes are causing you such great problems why don`t you get Woomeister to send out his version of the table once he's changed things? It's not like a table file is very big once zipped! I find the idea of dropping one file into the data drawer much easier than going through the drawer and replacing several files.
On top of all this what happens if once you`ve tested a mod you add the data to the default table but forget to remove the smalled tbl file? That's the sort of problem that could very easily occur with this sort of thing.