Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Noise on April 17, 2003, 03:31:16 pm
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Okay, here's the deal. I making a series of stealth missions for my campaign and I need a new stealth fighter, preferrable heavy. I already have the GTsB Scimitar, but any new stealth bombers would also be appreciated.;)
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Aldo's Casualties of War had a nice stealth fighter in it. I suppose it could pass as a light bomber with some minor table mods.
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As a matter of fact, I made a reskin of the Bakha a few weeks ago to make it a Vasudan stealth bomber. It's on this thread (don't bump it.)
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,14123.0.html
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But surely a heavy stealth fighter is a contradiction.
E.G.
"2000 Arabs crept up to the oasis"
The Nasty Affair at the Burami Oasis
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
But surely a heavy stealth fighter is a contradiction.
Of course it isn`t. It just unbalances the game if not used carefully. There is no good reason why once the GTVA have stealth systems they wouldn`t try to fit it to every craft they can get.
And no reason why it shouldn`t work if the mission designer wants to say it did.
The only problem with heavy stealth fighters is that it negates the point in having heavy non-stealth fighters unless you cripple them in some way (ie make them rare and expensive, give them poor armourments or make them very slow and unmanouverable).
Noe of that precludes the possibility of having heavy stealth ships in any way though.
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Hmm, 'spose I'm convinced.
after all, B2 are very large and heavy.
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A Heavy or Assault class stealth fighter could be balanced by a large payload, which is what primarily sets these classes off from the lighter classes like Interceptor or Space Superiority. This could be set off by insanely low hitpoints or weak sheilds. Also it should be limited to the lowest primaries only, no Prometheus S or Kayser, only one or two low power, basically useless weapons, like the Prometheus, or even ballistic primaries.
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Er... you guys do realise that huge tradeoffs have to made for 'stealth', right? Ever tried to fly a B2 or F-117? They're about as manouverable as a sofa. The F-117 is called the stealth 'fighter' only because it's only able to carry two bombs, and the UASF were too embarressed to call it a bomber. Even the F-22 suffers for its stealthiness, since its weapons are carrried internally resulting in limited capacity (8 missiles as opposed to a Typhoon's 14 - Tyhpoon pwnz j00).
And fair enough, in FreeSpace you can take your Erinyes or Herc II and give it a stealth flag, but who are you tying to kid?
Anyway, to answer the original question, Aldo's your man. As mentioned, he's done a rather tasty stealth fighter which you'll find in the COW VP archive. Make sure you ask him before you pinch it :)
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Diamond Geezer supports the action taken against Iraq
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I agree with you along those lines DG but that's just in real life. Doesn`t mean it has to happen in the game.
There is nothing to say the GTVA couldn`t develop a better stealth system that doesn`t have any trade off. The only problem would be that no one would want to fly the normal fighters.
That means that in games like FS2 stealth fighters always have a trade off so as to preserve gameplay but that isn`t done for logical reasons.
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IF anything Payload should be the biggest stat to suffer. Especially in the secondaries.
Here's another look at a stealth problem.. In Star Trek, the Romulans have stealth for Everything! Nuff said. The Federation (as far as we know) have ONE Stealth Destroyer (The Defiant) loard knows they want to get cloaking devices on every fed ship too but they have a treaty with the Romulans, break it and it's war... I have heard no handicap for the defiant after it was fited with a cloaking deviced except for the shield issue powering up/down. Now this is the ultimate form of stealth but related I think...
I would either have 1 primary weapon and a small missile payload (1 bank) or 3 primaries but NO secondaries. The thought behind this is though it is a HEAVY fighter (armor wise) it simply does not have the armamnets to take the normal fighter role. It's main use is for recon, surprise assualts (where seconds count) like the initail phase of an attack. Send in the light stelth recon units to scout the area and report enemy positions/numbers. then send in the heavy stealth uniths and move them into attack positions and lie in wait till the main force is read. All critical targets or targets of opportunity are covered. the signal is given and all hell breaks loose. as the main forces star warping in (seconds of vulnerability and alerting the enemy to their presence) the stealth units open fire on their covered targets with complete surprise and in seconds will have normal fighter/bomber/capship support. That is how I would use the Heavy stealth fighter...
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
The F-117 is called the stealth 'fighter' only because it's only able to carry two bombs, and the UASF were too embarressed to call it a bomber.
There's something I didn't know. Thanks for the snippet :yes:
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Star Trek also has teleporters, androids, and magical deflector dishes capable of solving every known problem in the universe (Voyager).
For starters, Star Trek isn't exactly the height of realism, converting 1 person into energy means you have enough energy to blow up a planet, much less some puny little spaceship - don't bother with the dampening buffer explanation, its not very convincing.
If you want to take it one step further, the Defiant isn't a fighter. Putting cloaking devices on a cruiser-sized vessel is a wee bit different from putting such a device on a fighter, where the cloaking device would be about half the size of the fighter. Capital ships in Star Trek obviously have room to spare, they always have nearly empty cargo bays.
Finally, Freespace2 isn't Star Trek. The plot is different, the tech is different, you can't use what's in one to justify what you do to the other.
Just my 2 cents
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You realy got it in for ST huh?
Point was without a handicap (like in ST) you have lack of play balance. That's what I was trying to say... And yes consideraing all things you can compare anything to anything else as long as you remember KPCOFGS (kingdom Phylum Class Order Family Genus Sci-Fium) I like to remember it as "King Philip Came Over For Good Sci-fi!" Only way I made it through Biology! (yes I know species is the last acronym so bite me ;))
Meaning you CAN compare all sci-fi to any other sci-fi, just don't be intolerant of the differences you are gonna find. IDIC - Infinite Diversity of Infinate Combinations... - Gene Roddenberry...(RIP)..
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Fact 1 - Star Trek is great (I don't count Voyager as Star Trek, I count it as ****!). the only thing that bug me is the transporter (all other tech is possible - so sez my physics profesor) and the uber-powerfull-energy life forms....
And if you wann see a real powerrfull cloacked ship, look at the Galaxy-X... It would eat the Defiant and half the Romulan fleet for breakfast....
But back to topic...
There is something good even in bad thing and something bad even in good things (at least a little)- law of the universe.
The point is, that you can add ultra fast, ultra manuverable, ultra powerfull bombers then... I mean, in space bigger size doesn't mean that the ship would move slower!
And that would suck!
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Originally posted by TrashMan
Fact 1 - Star Trek is great (I don't count Voyager as Star Trek, I count it as ****!).
what about Enterprise?
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Don't get me started on that barrel of inconsistency!
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Um, explain to me what makes a specific fighter Heavy or Assault class if not the secondary payload capacity? I mean if the Herc 2 had the same payload as the Pegasus it would be a floating target dummy.
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Shields? Armour? Sanitation facilites for the pilot?
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Well since we know from the Pegasus that stealth generators require significant hull surface area, so one would assume that armor would be the first thing to go. Some secondary space would be sacrificed but that could be resolved with a minor internal rearrangement.
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If you were to do a good heavy fighter...I'd say...limit the armor, max the guns out at 4, make the guns have low compatability with certain weapon types, and try and make the craft have a specialized purpose.
I see stealth fighters being used as scouts and espinoage. A heavy stealth fighter could be used to take out a specific target...say a cruiser or a transport and then fading away.
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Stealth fighters and bombers should also be hideously expensive, again taking the Spirit and Nighthawk as examples. Perhaps the |337 of the |337 units of SOC use them, but the rest of the fleet doesn't even know they exist.
And let's look at Nod stealth tanks - weak armour, and they have to decloak to fire. What if they could fire while cloaked? What if they had uber guns and armour? The GDI would need a tank the size of a city to counter them, to make up for their lack of stealth.
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Diamond Geezer holds a fork-lift licence
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Nah, GDI commanders only need a few Titans and a sensor array :p
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Love those Titans :nod:
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Diamond Geezer stands for truth and justice
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And those Orcas - I miss the old days when I'd show up at someone's front door with a nice squadron or two of those babys, pretty funny when you send them in swarms ;)
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Oh, you gotta love those Orcas. Got SAMs? Well I got Orca bombers, so bring it, ***** :cool:
I really wish I could find my TS discs :sigh:
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Diamond Geezer plays the game, not the occasion
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Why? TS was released in almost pre-beta form. To be honest, it looks like a technology test for the Red Alert 2 engine.
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So very true.
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:confused: Isn't amazing how fast and in how many directions a conversation can go completely off course?
Anywho, what I was looking for was something with (take Pegasus as an example) slightly heavier armor, and payload. Sure maneuverability will have to drop, but thats life. I was really hoping a weapons bay large enough to hold a single Cyclops.
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As I said. The Stealth fighter from COW should be perfect for you :) It even looks similar to the pegaus. You may need to edit the tables a little but that shouldn`t be too hard.
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Originally posted by Liberator
Why? TS was released in almost pre-beta form. To be honest, it looks like a technology test for the Red Alert 2 engine.
I liked the story, I liked the interface, I liked the unit and building design. Thus, I liked the game. Leave it alone.
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TS didnt have enough tanks. Mechs are cool, but tanks are what make C&C games. ALl they had was the stupid NOD Tick Tank. and a mammoth tank if you edit the rules.ini file. Now Red ALert 2 goes back to having lots of nice tanks. tanks are nice. tanks are your friend. without tanks, the world is lost.
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You only had tick tanks if you didn't know how to build a tech center; I bring to your attention the wonderful things known as Disruptors, DTs, Stealth tanks. :p
Stealth tanks are actually quite fun if you can get enough of them, you'd be surprised how few people know to deploy sensor arrays where their harvesters go ;)
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Originally posted by Charmande
TS didnt have enough tanks. Mechs are cool, but tanks are what make C&C games. ALl they had was the stupid NOD Tick Tank. and a mammoth tank if you edit the rules.ini file. Now Red ALert 2 goes back to having lots of nice tanks. tanks are nice. tanks are your friend. without tanks, the world is lost.
you get some mammoth tanks in a mission too, tho you can't build them.
back on topic, just my two cents: I don't see any pb with a heavy stealth fighter.
tradeoffs?
B2 and F117 both fly like a brick because of strange aerodynamics? that's true. but FS2 is in space, so it's irrelevant.
internal weapons? yeah, that's true ( altho if I'm not mistaken the F22 can carry external hardpoints if needed ). in FS2, all teh ships have internal bays. so?
expensiveness, yeah, the B2 is the most expensive plane ever, and the F22 has the worst price/efficiency ratio ever ( :p ). in fs2 they pop up cruisers and destroyers by the dozen, and can bring a new ship ( perseus for exemple ) in full service in an outstandingly short time. I doubt even an uber fighter would make a big hole in the GTVA wallet.
ST has crappy tech fluff? that is SOOOOO true :p
but FS2 isn't really better :doubt:
"steps back in the shadows where he came from"
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Originally posted by IceFire
If you were to do a good heavy fighter...I'd say...limit the armor, max the guns out at 4, make the guns have low compatability with certain weapon types, and try and make the craft have a specialized purpose.
I see stealth fighters being used as scouts and espinoage. A heavy stealth fighter could be used to take out a specific target...say a cruiser or a transport and then fading away.
I'd say pretty much the same - IMO, the main aspect to an FS2 stealth fighter is that it has low emissions, so it has to dissapate heat & em energy over the surface (the blue conduits on the Pegasus, ie). So too many primaries would give a localised heat & energy source that could be detected.
By the same reasoning, the bigger the ship, the better (more area to dissipate energy over) - but the easier the target (and presuming a loss of maneuverability).
So if you factor those in, the 'best' stealth fighter would only be equivalent to an interceptor IMO... any stealth bomber would either be light but only carry weak weapons, or huge and be an easy target. And the bets use (and the best gameplay wise) IMO is for recon, or covert ops - i.e. surgical strikes, TAG-ing ships, launching diversionary attacks, etc.
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A stealth system on a heavy fighter would result in either a supership or a POS. If you tried to balance a stealth Herc, you'd end up with a slow, unmaneuverable, poorly armed piece of cannon fodder. The Ptah and Pegasus work because they are so quick and agile that they can shake an enemy if the bogey gets a visual on them. In an Ares, it can be very difficult to shoot down a Ptah because it will constantly outmaneuver you and fly out of your field of view and so you end up turning every which way trying to figure out where the Ptah went while it gradually wears you down with its twin pea shooters (however, a light fighter like a Perseus or Manticore will have little trouble with a Ptah, and if you're flying a Ptah and get spotted by a Dragon, kiss your ass goodbye!). In a so-called heavy stealth fighter, once the enemy fighters see you, you will not be able to shake them, and they will rip you to shreds.