Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: deep_eyes on November 08, 2001, 12:33:00 am
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Ok we all know that in Freespace 1, the encounter with the shivans led to the terran and vasudan races to consider this the greatest war they ever faught, in other words, "the great war". also because of the lovely TM behind it lol, but in freespace 2, this is not the case. no where in the game itself it is considered "the second great war", but everywhere i go at most fan based mod sites, they call it the second shivan war, and only a few others including myself, call the shivan invasions of capella and gamma draconis an "incursion". it wasnt like an all out war, it was contained to those main starsystems and the nebula. only the NTF we encountered elsewhere in the galaxy. to be politically correct here, the shivan invasion wasnt formally a war. in fs1 even in the storyline, the GTA and PVN declared open states of war against the shivans. in FS2 it was more containment of the incursion. so whos politically correct story and ideal wise?
FS1 defined "WAR"
FS2 defined "INVASION-INCURSION"
so which is correct? u tell me?
Shivan Incursion or Second Great War?
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New Project Leader of the New Dawn Resolution Project in conjuction with the Metal Siren Network and staff member of The Eden Project.
The Metal Siren Network: Freespace 2: New Dawn Resolution - The Eden Project (//"http://www.angelfire.com/realm/nd_resolution/")
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Call it a war, incursion, police action, or even 'school crossing guard action', a lot of people get killed...
Philosophy aside, politically speaking I think your view is correct. The second 'action' fought against the
Shivans was not an open state of war. The only real war fought in this time-period was agains the NTF, (which was defeated at Gamma Draconis) the rest of the game is a 'Containment Action' (which failed misserably by all accounts).
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Yeah that sounds right...
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Originally posted by jonskowitz:
Call it a war, incursion, police action, or even 'school crossing guard action', a lot of people get killed...
Philosophy aside, politically speaking I think your view is correct. The second 'action' fought against the
Shivans was not an open state of war. The only real war fought in this time-period was agains the NTF, (which was defeated at Gamma Draconis) the rest of the game is a 'Containment Action' (which failed misserably by all accounts).
exactly my whole point, over confident humans and the vasudans just played along with the terran side views. it snice to see at 1:53 am in the morning eastern time people are still around the forums lol... anyone else agree with these views?
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New Project Leader of the New Dawn Resolution Project in conjuction with the Metal Siren Network and staff member of The Eden Project.
The Metal Siren Network: Freespace 2: New Dawn Resolution - The Eden Project ("http://www.angelfire.com/realm/nd_resolution/")
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1:53? its 6:55 over here!
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Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER:
1:53? its 6:55 over here!
AM or PM? ITS 1:58am now in NYC
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New Project Leader of the New Dawn Resolution Project in conjuction with the Metal Siren Network and staff member of The Eden Project.
The Metal Siren Network: Freespace 2: New Dawn Resolution - The Eden Project ("http://www.angelfire.com/realm/nd_resolution/")
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lol
Think about it deep... he's just to the east of you on the other side of the big pond so it would be in the AM hours.
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Originally posted by jonskowitz:
lol
Think about it deep... he's just to the east of you on the other side of the big pond so it would be in the AM hours.
its late my head hurts too many axion flare renders............................ (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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New Project Leader of the New Dawn Resolution Project in conjuction with the Metal Siren Network and staff member of The Eden Project.
The Metal Siren Network: Freespace 2: New Dawn Resolution - The Eden Project ("http://www.angelfire.com/realm/nd_resolution/")
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Look at WWI, it's called The Great War, but WWII was in all respects larger, except perhaps in political repercussions. (This is a long, involved topic and not really relevant to the discussion at hand)
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This is a good topic and a good point.
I've heard the "Second Great War" and have used that, but you're right, I probably just heard that from fan sites.
So what is it called? "The War of 2367"? "The Second Shivan Invasion?"
One thing is I guess it depends on how you think about it, like if it should be called two things.
If you consider it from the GTVA vs. the NTF, the it could be called something like "The NTF Rebellion" or "The Neo-Terran War".
But for the Shivan side of the war, you have to consider it from the GTVA's point of view. They didn't think that maybe the Shivans had another purpose other than us. That they could have just invaded us with that juggernaught fleet years ago. To the GTVA, the Shivans attacked us first and so we had to fight back their second invasion (not knowing that their only goal was Capella). So from the GTVA's it could be called "The Second Shivan War" or "The Second Shivan Invasion".
So, what do we call each?
Joe.
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(http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl) ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
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I refer to it as either 'the Second Shivan war', or the Capella / Capellan War.
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I refer to it as the Knossos incident or the Capellan war.
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I call it Freespcae2...
(http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif) (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by LAW ENFORCER (edited 11-08-2001).]
[This message has been edited by LAW ENFORCER (edited 11-08-2001).]
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...or we call it what Petrarch and the guys in the GTVA call it in the finale... "The Battle of Capella"
Wow! Isn't that hard? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif)
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Ace
Staff member FreeSpace Watch
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/ ("http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/")
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Hey, Joe... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
That random sig of yours is cool... clever Perl script (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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First Great War is just that. FS2 started in the middle of the NTF Rebellion, and documented the Second Shivan Invasion.
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I guess at the end of the day, it was an invasion..... by the GTVA. After all, they took a great deal of convincing to leave the Nebula to the Shivans, and it was the NTF who first opened the door as it were.
Flipside
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Who washes the washmen?
Seeya on the Flipside!
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Originally posted by Setekh:
Hey, Joe... (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
That random sig of yours is cool... clever Perl script (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Thanks, but it's not my script, it's Matt's ("http://www.worldwidemart.com/scripts/"). (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Joe.
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(http://www.joek.com/cgi-local/fs2rev_image.pl) ("http://www.joek.com/other/freespace/")
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I've always thought of it as the Second Shivan Incursion, though mainly because it sounded cooler on command briefings...
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You proably love that word (incusion) ever since WarcraftII? right? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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It ultimately turned out that Bosch was trying to ally with the Shivans. This means that the 'insursion' is grouped with Bosch's actions and thus both the NTF rebellion and the Shivan attacks taken as a whole constitute a Second Great War. Thank you, thank you.
*takes a bow*
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"I'm huntin' wabbits"----Elmer Fudd
I is internet proficient ("http://www.fattonys.com")
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Originally posted by an0n:
It ultimately turned out that Bosch was trying to ally with the Shivans. This means that the 'insursion' is grouped with Bosch's actions and thus both the NTF rebellion and the Shivan attacks taken as a whole constitute a Second Great War. Thank you, thank you.
*takes a bow*
but no one formally "declared war". so its not a secong great war. the power of the word politically is deeper than people realize.
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New Project Leader of the New Dawn Resolution Project in conjuction with the Metal Siren Network and staff member of The Eden Project.
The Metal Siren Network: Freespace 2: New Dawn Resolution - The Eden Project ("http://www.angelfire.com/realm/nd_resolution/")
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Let me take a crack at this:
FS2, to me, is the Second Incursion, the second major encounter with the Shivans, with FS1 being the first. But they weren't different wars. The entire FS series is the Great War.
Think about it this way, there was never any political contact between the alliance and the Shivans at the end of FS1. The Shivans just disappeared. Thus, technically, there was never any peace treaty ending the Great War against the Shivans. And so, when the Shivans reappeared in FS2, it was simply the continuation of the original war started in 2335. This is why FS2 can be called the Second Incursion, because it was the second incursion of the Shivans on GTVA space of the Great War. FS1 is the First Incursion, and FS3 probably would have been the Third.
It makes a bit of sense this way.
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I know there is a method, but all I see is madness.
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It depends on how you look at it, but that sounds about right.
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but no one formally "declared war".
I'm sorry, I must have missed the Command briefing in FS1 where the Shivans formally declared war. How stupid of me.
Technically FS1 wasn't a war. The Lucy was a scouting vessel (at least according to the back of the box). So if there wasn't a first was, there couldn't have been a second.
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"I'm huntin' wabbits"----Elmer Fudd
I is internet proficient ("http://www.fattonys.com")
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Originally posted by an0n:
I'm sorry, I must have missed the Command briefing in FS1 where the Shivans formally declared war. How stupid of me.
Technically FS1 wasn't a war. The Lucy was a scouting vessel (at least according to the back of the box). So if there wasn't a first was, there couldn't have been a second.
um r u mental? no where are we talking bout the fs1-'s great war. we r concentrated on fs2. the sarcasm isnt needed.
secondly, no one as far as we all know Shivan "declared war" on humanity or the vasudans. they just came in and slaughtered everyone. so if u r quoting breifings and databases: only the GTA-PVN declared war on the SHivans not the other way around.
secondly, the first great war ENDED. like a majority here had already stated, it was a "war" with the NTF, then it became a containment issue when the SHivans returned, and it failed misserably, but nowhere throughout the game did the GTVA IN FS2 declare war on anyone.
lastly just cause it was a "Scouting vessel" doesnt mean it wasnt a war. when a nation declares war on another nation, it is openly stated as it has been throughout history. today though, we see battles and bombings with military (IE: the american assault on afganistan-taliban). people call this a war, because it is the general term for military fighting, but this country formally didnt declare war on anyone as one unit. the President just made a policy that has the military assaulting terrorist assests, thus its a war on terrorism, like the term "war on drugs" used by police all over the US. its a series of battles, and whatnot, but no-one legally has declared war on anyone as a "nation". only individuals without a nation is fighting a nation. the SHivans are just like, insects with a swarm and hive mentality and it is shown with there AI, hell even in the command briefing (which u r so big on reminding us about-i see u over looked this).
bottom line, like i said before, and a majority has agreed, is not a second shivan war or second great war. its an incursion.
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New Project Leader of the New Dawn Resolution Project in conjuction with the Metal Siren Network and staff member of The Eden Project.
The Metal Siren Network: Freespace 2: New Dawn Resolution - The Eden Project ("http://www.angelfire.com/realm/nd_resolution/")
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Look at WWI, it's called The Great War, but WWII was in all respects larger, except perhaps in political repercussions.
But WW1 was called the Great War because at the time and before 1939 it was the greatest war fought. It only started to be referred to as a World War after WW2.
And by this example the FS Great War was probably only called the Great War after it had ended. Had the Shivans spread to more systems and we had defeated them, maybe the Great War would have been called the 'First Great Shivan Invasion'.
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'The more women there are about, the softer a wise man steps.' Saying in Arad Doman.
'Well, since the whole loaf won't be mine, I will settle for whatever slices fall my way.' - Mazrim Taim
Why not visit the Time of Change website? Well once I get back up that is.
[This message has been edited by Tar-Palantir (edited 11-23-2001).]
[This message has been edited by Tar-Palantir (edited 11-25-2001).]
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all that because of one word? you all people are just weird.
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Originally posted by venom2506:
all that because of one word? you all people are just weird.
yea well when you think about it, no one really decided nor did volition decide wheather the FS2 campaign was a 2nd great war and or incursion. i was just trying to correct alot of confusion to newbies, and the veterans of the series who call the fs2 campaign a second great war when it really wasnt. nor did it continue from fs1. but besides all that alot of us agreed it was an incursion, and a failed containment issue, and the GTVA got spanked.
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New Project Leader of the New Dawn Resolution Project in conjuction with the Metal Siren Network and staff member of The Eden Project.
The Metal Siren Network: Freespace 2: New Dawn Resolution - The Eden Project ("http://www.angelfire.com/realm/nd_resolution/")
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Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER:
You proably love that word (incusion) ever since WarcraftII? right? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
To be honest, I can't even remember it from Warcraft 2, but the game kicked donkey, so I don't really care (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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'Reality is the Playground for the unimaginative'
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