Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Kazan on April 22, 2003, 01:37:23 pm
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Mosaic was released ten years ago today, i remember using it in the days before spam and 28.8 kpbs modems
http://slashdot.org/articles/03/04/22/1640216.shtml?tid=95&tid=154
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It's hard to believe that that was what Mozilla, the worlds worst web browser, grew out of...
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you clearly have been doing too much LSD to say mozilla is the worlds worst browser
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IE, Help -> About Internet Explorer:
Based on NCSA Mosaic. NCSA Mosaic(TM); was developed at the National Center for Supercomputing Applications at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.
it's obvious to me that mosaic was the basis for the world's most widely-used browser... and i said 'widely used' not 'best'
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Next week, on Famous Moments in Internet History: The first porn... in ASCII!
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Old aussie saying:
Yeah, I'd like To See that..
:p
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You would?
Perv.
:D
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dammit, someone should add [Sarcasm][/Sarcasm] tags to this thing..
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Originally posted by Kazan
you clearly have been doing too much LSD to say mozilla is the worlds worst browser
Just because it's free and open source doesn't automatically make it any good. Opera make a far better browser than mozilla.org ever could yet don't get the respect they deserve simply because they remain a commercial enterprise and charge for their product.
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I don't know 'bout Mosaic, but There's nothing wrong with Mozilla. I use it and find it better than IE. mmm tabbed windows (yes, Opera has this too).
Anyway, I have been trying out Blackdiamond 0.2 (http://blackdiamond.mozdev.org/) and it's pretty good. There are still bugs and the mouse gestures take a bit of getting used to, though. Based on Phoenix. :)
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Originally posted by Ryx
mmm tabbed windows (yes, Opera has this too).
Opera had it first, Mozilla borrowed it and didn't implement it even half as well.
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Originally posted by Admiral LSD
Just because it's free and open source doesn't automatically make it any good. Opera make a far better browser than mozilla.org ever could yet don't get the respect they deserve simply because they remain a commercial enterprise and charge for their product.
:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:
do you make astoundingly moronic assumptions on purpose? or are you trying to do it to annoy me
im not saying it's great JUST BECAUSE IT'S OPEN SOURCE - if you think that was my reasoning then you're one hell of a moron
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Calm down, this always happens when you have a point to make. I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one who's bored of it now.
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Originally posted by Kazan
:eek2: :eek2: :eek2: :eek2:
do you make astoundingly moronic assumptions on purpose? or are you trying to do it to annoy me
im not saying it's great JUST BECAUSE IT'S OPEN SOURCE - if you think that was my reasoning then you're one hell of a moron
ATi is the largest, most well known non-nVidia graphics chip maker there is. Red Hat Linux is the largest, most well known non-Microsoft OS there is. Mozilla is the largest, most well known non-Microsoft browser there is. Is that enough or should I explain it further?
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Originally posted by Admiral LSD
ATi is the largest, most well known non-nVidia graphics chip maker there is. Red Hat Linux is the largest, most well known non-Microsoft OS there is. Mozilla is the largest, most well known non-Microsoft browser there is. Is that enough or should I explain it further?
you logic still fails to follow
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:blah:
You guys are scaring me more and more every day....
:blah:
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Lets just say they both need to get out more...
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
Lets just say they both need to get out more...
:nod:
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
Lets just say they both need to get out more...
i get out plenty, thank you oh Luminous One
*rolleyes*
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And yet you sit here debating internet browsers and attempting to mock me by referring to my avatar.
Of course you get out Kazan. And everyone here believes you.
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As long as nobody mentions Netscape were ok! :D (damn crapy piece of...right......) :D
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Originally posted by Kazan
im not saying it's great JUST BECAUSE IT'S OPEN SOURCE - if you think that was my reasoning then you're one hell of a moron
Perhaps the reason these conclusions are made is because there is no reasoning at all <<--- HINT
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go Kazan
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Originally posted by Ryx
mmm tabbed windows (yes, Opera has this too).
Trying... not... to... burst...
When I, long time ago, first tried some version of Opera (and it's tabbed browsing) Netscape was relatively fresh and everyone's favourite over IE.
Mozilla did not exist. It wouldn't for many years... Opera is the leader that others copy - Mozilla got tabs, mouse gestures and others from them, to count the most recent ones. :rolleyes:
And no, I'm not saying that they shouldn't, they need to, if they're ever going to get anywhere near Opera's excellence.
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Wow! Mozilla vs Opera wars now?
Riight.. I sense some frustration here ;)..
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Uh... MACs are the most famous non-Windows OS. Then it's probably a toss-up between UNIX, Linux, and OS2. Or DOS, if you're counting obsolete software.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Uh... MACs are the most famous non-Windows OS. Then it's probably a toss-up between UNIX, Linux, and OS2. Or DOS, if you're counting obsolete software.
True and I should have remembered that, but that wasn't the point I was trying to make. ATi is what you use when you don't want to use nVidia, never mind the fact the first decent product they've made in years was the Radeon 9700. Red Hat Linux is the first OS for i386 compatibles you move to if you don't want to use Windows, never mind the fact the open source/free software philosophy is better displayed in other Linux distributions like Debian (who even go so far as to use the correct name "GNU/Linux") and Slackware and even non-Linux OS's like FreeBSD. Given Kazan's outspoken defence of both those things, it wasn't a long stretch to assume he'd defend Mozilla for similar reasons. The fact it's open source itself was a bonus really.
Originally posted by IceFire
As long as nobody mentions Netscape were ok! :D (damn crapy piece of...right......) :D
Mosaic -> Netscape -> Mozilla
see the trend there? :D
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Gah, it almost doesn't matter what web browser you use in a linux environment anyway. They all almost never crash and work pretty much the same :p (in windows it's a different story, I won't go there)
Oh and Go Lynx! :D
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Originally posted by Kamikaze
Oh and Go Lynx! :D
heh, I spent much of the eight weeks it took me to compile the XFree86 and GNOME environment on my old Pentium II at text consoles (usually because I'd screwed over X and had to recompile from scratch, a process that took and age and a half) and did a fair amount of browsing in Links and let me tell you, text browsing is not fun...
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Originally posted by Admiral LSD
even non-Linux OS's like FreeBSD.
:eek: what about open VMS?
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Originally posted by Admiral LSD
Opera had it first, Mozilla borrowed it and didn't implement it even half as well.
Pardon, but AFAIK, you're wrong (re: tabbed browsing). Granted, I don't know when Opera first introduced tabbed browsing (not MDI - Multiple Document Interface, mind you), but I know that NetCaptor (http://www.netcaptor.com/) had a tabbed interface as early as 1999.
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I don't know precisely when Opera had tabbed windows, but I do know that Opera started out in 1994, 5 years before Netcaptor had tabbed windows. (first public version was a bit later, after 1995)
Source: http://www.markschenk.com/opera/history.html
BTW: screens of one of the original Opera builds, before Opera 2.0 http://www.igd.fhg.de/archive/1995_www95/proceedings/posters/31/
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Originally posted by Kamikaze
I don't know precisely when Opera had tabbed windows, but I do know that Opera started out in 1994, 5 years before Netcaptor had tabbed windows. (first public version was a bit later, after 1995)
Source: http://www.markschenk.com/opera/history.html
BTW: screens of one of the original Opera builds, before Opera 2.0 http://www.igd.fhg.de/archive/1995_www95/proceedings/posters/31/
Yeah, Opera started out with a MDI (which was and still is awkward), but no tabs. That's why I didn't stick with it way back in 95. :)
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Tabs, MDI same difference. The MDI is just a much better way of doing it as it's more tightly integrated with the program. Even with tabs, Moz still acts like an SDI browser, ie pressing Ctrl-N opens a whole new browser window (in Opera, it adds another window to the MDI) and clicking a link that opens a new window will do just that (again, Opera will add a new window to the MDI and load the page in it) and is extremely annoying because of it. You can even get the same "tabbed" effect (again, a fair while before Moz had it) by moving the Page bar to the top of the screen, something I've been doing the whole time I've used it as having it on the bottom kept interfering with my auto-hidden Start bar.
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Originally posted by Admiral LSD
Tabs, MDI same difference. The MDI is just a much better way of doing it as it's more tightly integrated with the program. Even with tabs, Moz still acts like an SDI browser, ie pressing Ctrl-N opens a whole new browser window (in Opera, it adds another window to the MDI) and clicking a link that opens a new window will do just that (again, Opera will add a new window to the MDI and load the page in it) and is extremely annoying because of it. You can even get the same "tabbed" effect (again, a fair while before Moz had it) by moving the Page bar to the top of the screen, something I've been doing the whole time I've used it as having it on the bottom kept interfering with my auto-hidden Start bar.
No, it isn't the same difference. Lookit the latest version of MS Word. That program has, in the past, used MDI consistantly - one program window, but multiple child windows. Now, with the program grouping of WinXP, MS has made Word into what is essentially a SDI (not the Strategic Defense Initiative...! :rolleyes: ). Thus every document has its own window (incedentally occupying more taskbar space on non-XP OSes, such as the venerable Win2k), and they are all grouped into a single taskbar button in XP.
Why did MS make that change? I haven't the foggiest, but there must have been a good reason for it, right?
:nervous:
Anyways, the point is that MDI is generally much more cluttered than tabs - just look at pre-tabs Opera screenies to see what I mean. I mean, come on - how often do you right click on the windows taskbar and choose "Cascade Windows" or one of the window tiling options? You see, in essence, the taskbar, with its buttons for windows, is just another tabbed interface.
But yes, I agree with you that Mozilla's implementation of tabs is kinda weak. Personally, I get along just fine with it, since Mozilla provides the middle-mouse button option of clicking on any link to open it in a new tab. Yeah, I use that button almost exclusively when I want to follow a new link w/o leaving the current page, but imagine a situation where you're looking up all sorts of game tips for some game, and replying to a ton of threads in HLP at the same time. With Mozilla, you can have all the game tip pages be tabs in one window, and all the HLP stuff be tabs in another window. (Personally, I just use the same window all the time, but whatever).
So the only thing I want to know is exactly when Opera started using tabs for its MDI. Pre- or post- NetCaptor?
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*goes to create browser with a built in "protection" program*
"Protection" program: If you type anything bad about the browser a person with an axe will come to crash either your computer or chop off your head.
Name: AxeNet
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Originally posted by Tiara
*goes to create browser with a built in "protection" program*
"Protection" program: If you type anything bad about the browser a person with an axe will come to crash either your computer or chop off your head.
Name: AxeNet
:blah: :wtf:
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Originally posted by Sandwich
:blah: :wtf:
At least then their won't be these petty arguments. I mean, everyone likes something else better. Let them.
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Originally posted by Tiara
At least then their won't be these petty arguments. I mean, everyone likes something else better. Let them.
And for my 5000th post:
Meh.
:D
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Originally posted by Sandwich
No, it isn't the same difference. Lookit the latest version of MS Word. That program has, in the past, used MDI consistantly - one program window, but multiple child windows. Now, with the program grouping of WinXP, MS has made Word into what is essentially a SDI (not the Strategic Defense Initiative...! :rolleyes: ). Thus every document has its own window (incedentally occupying more taskbar space on non-XP OSes, such as the venerable Win2k), and they are all grouped into a single taskbar button in XP.
Why did MS make that change? I haven't the foggiest, but there must have been a good reason for it, right?
:nervous:
FYI, the MDI was taken out of Word in what would have been about version 9 (Word 2000) if not earlier, which was released about 2-3 years before XP. Admittedly, XP was being thought about then, 2000 is simply a rough-hewn, half-finished build of it released to meet a deadline but that doesn't make it any more valid an example.
Anyways, the point is that MDI is generally much more cluttered than tabs - just look at pre-tabs Opera screenies to see what I mean. I mean, come on - how often do you right click on the windows taskbar and choose "Cascade Windows" or one of the window tiling options?
It's been improved since then. I only started using Opera seriously at about version 5 and it was no more cluttered than anything else. I've never needed to use any of the Window tiling options as I could generally see what was loaded in each Window because it was clearly labelled on it's associate page bar (which worked *exactly* like the Windows taskbar) button. Mozilla's tabs were far more cluttered than Opera's MDI as they could be spread across multiple Windows.
But yes, I agree with you that Mozilla's implementation of tabs is kinda weak. Personally, I get along just fine with it, since Mozilla provides the middle-mouse button option of clicking on any link to open it in a new tab. Yeah, I use that button almost exclusively when I want to follow a new link w/o leaving the current page, but imagine a situation where you're looking up all sorts of game tips for some game, and replying to a ton of threads in HLP at the same time. With Mozilla, you can have all the game tip pages be tabs in one window, and all the HLP stuff be tabs in another window. (Personally, I just use the same window all the time, but whatever).
But using the middle mouse button is nowhere near as easy as just clicking the link and having it open in a new tab automatically (which I understand can be added through extensions but that isn't the point, Opera works this way out of the box) and neither is having to remember to use Ctrl-T to open a new tab. I've never had a problem in the past with the way Opera groups open windows in the Page bar. It's no worse than having a Windows taskbar filled to the gills with buttons. Opera 7 allows me to move the buttons around but I've never really used it as I still don't see the need.
You see, in essence, the taskbar, with its buttons for windows, is just another tabbed interface.
And since Opera had it before any other browser, including NetCaptor, I'll take that as a concession.
So the only thing I want to know is exactly when Opera started using tabs for its MDI. Pre- or post- NetCaptor?
The first time I saw the tab metaphor used in Opera was only quite recently, in version 7 which was only released in the last 6-8 months. However, it was just a new look to the same MDI Opera's had forever meaning it still predates Netcaptor by several years.
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Originally posted by Admiral LSD
And since Opera had it before any other browser, including NetCaptor, I'll take that as a concession.
...
The first time I saw the tab metaphor used in Opera was only quite recently, in version 7 which was only released in the last 6-8 months. However, it was just a new look to the same MDI Opera's had forever meaning it still predates Netcaptor by several years.
Ahh - never knew that Opera used buttons for all the open windows pre-tabs. :p
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Hmm, just found this (http://www.netcaptor.com/article/173/?a=1000).
[q]NetCaptor Turns 5
Can you believe it? Today is NetCaptor's 5th birthday! Five years ago today, the original version of NetCaptor (then known as SimulBrowse) was uploaded to Tucows. Its been a wild ride since then - freeware, shareware, adware, and back to shareware. NetCaptor was the first browser to introduce dynamic browser tabs. Since then, any number of NetCaptor clones have come and gone, and Opera and Netscape/Mozilla added tabs. Browser tabs are now a defacto feature of power-browsers... and it all started here.
Thanks to all the users how've supported NetCaptor through the years! [/q]
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NetCaptor may have been the first to apply the "tab" metaphor to multiple window management but Opera's MDI (which is functionally the same thing) still predates it by several years. I don't think NetCaptor was even the first program to offer an "MDI-like" functionality to IE as I recall NeoPlanet offering something similar (but lacking the "tab" metaphor) nearly a year before.
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They're just bragging.
What makes it annoying is that they're actually claiming Opera got the idea from them... yeah, right. :rolleyes:
Edit: Hmm... something old (http://my.opera.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2990#post15924) I just found...
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Originally posted by Admiral LSD
NetCaptor may have been the first to apply the "tab" metaphor to multiple window management but Opera's MDI (which is functionally the same thing) still predates it by several years. I don't think NetCaptor was even the first program to offer an "MDI-like" functionality to IE as I recall NeoPlanet offering something similar (but lacking the "tab" metaphor) nearly a year before.
It pre-dates 1998?
And all I have to say about NeoPlanet is: {smooth female voice}"NeoPlanet online."{/smooth female voice} ;)