Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: GrandAdmiralAbaht on May 12, 2003, 09:08:20 pm
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Does anyone have an educated guess as to what the GTVA's Terran and Vasudan populations are at the time of the Second Shivan Incursion?
If so, can anyone guess where most of the Terrans and Vasudan's live (what system)
Oh, yeah, and count the NTF systems as part of the GTVA, cause they're Terran anyways.
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Probably 60/40 Vasudan, as Terrans are supposed to be in decline.
Main Vasudan Systems include Vasuda Prime, Alpha Centauri, and Altair
Main Terran systems included Capella and Delta Serpentis.
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There are indications that Terrans are higher in number though; for example, in FS1 they said that 4 billion died on Vasuda Prime, which seems a rather small number considering that the most of the planetary surface was razed and there was no time for any mass evacuation. I think if the same had happened to Earth, the death toll would have been much higher especially with the increased population by that time.
I think the really major systems and centers of population are Delta Serpentis (terran), Beta Aquilae (both), Antares (terran), Vega (both), Vasuda (vasudan) and Alpha Centauri (vasudan). The NTF systems (Polaris, Regulus, Sirius) are obviously predominantly Terran.
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Well, it's not like Vasuda was very inhabitable... the majority of Vasudans probably lived offworld, due to the hostile climates of their homeworld. I expect millions lived in installations alone.
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Vega's both vasudan and terran? I'd always had it pegged as a mainly terran system. Is that just a guess cause if there is something in the game that suggests that there is a large Vasudan population I'd be interested in seeing it.
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Careful with number assumptions - we know nothing about the populations in the Terran/Vasudan systems.
Example: If a race owns 1 system with 1 billion inhabitants and another race 100 systems with 1 outpost (with 1000 inhabitents) in each, the later only got more systems...
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Vega's both vasudan and terran? I'd always had it pegged as a mainly terran system. Is that just a guess cause if there is something in the game that suggests that there is a large Vasudan population I'd be interested in seeing it.
Actually that was more of a guess than anything else; I was thinking about the system location when I said that, since its proximity to Deneb and Vasuda might mean that there are significant numbers of Vasudans living there.
The only one that I'm not really sure about is Sirius. It was one of the three NTF-controlled systems so that would seem to indicate a majority of Terrans, but all of three jump nodes from there lead to Vasudan systems, so there might have been quite a few Vasudans there too.
Well, it's not like Vasuda was very inhabitable... the majority of Vasudans probably lived offworld, due to the hostile climates of their homeworld. I expect millions lived in installations alone.
That would probably indeed be a factor in it but I'm not sure if it would account for this much of a difference. I think I remember the FS bible saying that all of the major cities there were domed or underground, so the weather probably shouldn't have caused that much of a problem later on with all the high tech. And even when colonies are settled, unless the conditions back home are really bad, the original homeplace tends to still have a much greater population (Earth by that time would probably have its population maxed out to full capacity).
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Vega:
Vega is really of the Humans, It became the human homeworld after the contact with Earth was lost. It think the number of Vasudans there is so few. Listen to the Command Briefing of Lt. Loukakis, squad leader of the 54th Hammerheads! He told this.
Vasuda Prime:
Because of the bombardments of the SD Lucifer it became INHABITABLE, so that planet doesn't capable of supporting either Humans or Vasudans any longer. Perhaps the Vasudans attempted to re-establish space installations.
Altair:
Vasudans are probably examining the ancient artifacts, but it is classified Level Zeta :)
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Wait a second, I thought Capella was a Vasudan world?
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Originally posted by tEAbAG
Wait a second, I thought Capella was a Vasudan world?
Probably was, but it is no longer that. :cool:
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One can probably get a good idea of which systems were colonized and later held by who by looking at the FS1 command briefings. At least, I'm assuming that the TV war was where the borders of today were drawn, so to speak, and I doubt the overall composition of system populations have changed all that much after the two sides joined forces against the shivans. Well, aside from the occasional extermination of all planetary life by the Shivans at any rate :D
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How many worlds did the shivans raze?
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Vega:
Vega is really of the Humans, It became the human homeworld after the contact with Earth was lost. It think the number of Vasudans there is so few. Listen to the Command Briefing of Lt. Loukakis, squad leader of the 54th Hammerheads! He told this.
That is just for that particular ship; the Bastion was transferred to Vega after the jump node collapse (it probably used to be based in Sol but couldn't go back there), so the "we" there is just referring the Bastion's squadrons. The main system for the Terrans during FS2 is probably Delta Serpentis since IIRC that is where the colonies established the new GTA headquarters after FS1.
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Yeah, it'll just be the Bastion's crew that calls Vega "home".
Just listened to that CB, you see, adn that's how it sounds.
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Originally posted by tEAbAG
How many worlds did the shivans raze?
If they begun with Ross 128, then they advanced as:
Ross 128-Ikeya-Betelgeuse-Ribos-Antares-Vasuda-Beta Aquilae-Delta Serpentis-Sol. You can follow the events of the Great War from the Command Briefings of FS1.
FS2 has two systems gone: Capella and Gamma. Capella has gone nova, and its node from Vega was collapsed, making Gamma Draconis unreachable unless the GTVA doesn't discover any alternate nodes to Gamma Draconis or Vega
The Shivans annihilated Altair 4 and Vasuda brutally. It is altogether 10, if I don't count Sol, Gamma Draconis and Altair 4.
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Originally posted by TopAce
The Shivans annihilated Altair 4 and Vasuda brutally. It is altogether 10, if I don't count Sol, Gamma Draconis and Altair 4.
Ouch, that'll put a dent in your productivity.
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Originally posted by tEAbAG
Ouch, that'll put a dent in your productivity.
How do you mean 'to put a dent'?
I don't know this expression
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The loss of that many worlds hurts the economy quite a bit. All that destruction of infastructure, as well as the markets that those planets represented, must have been quite a blow to recover from during the Reconstruction.
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Originally posted by tEAbAG
Wait a second, I thought Capella was a Vasudan world?
Huh? Where did you get that from? It's deep in human space, all the installations in it were Terran and the Aquitaine's fleet were based there.
Okay I'll post my list and lets see who disagrees.
Terran worlds.
Dubhe
Alphard
Wolf 359
Barnard's Star
Luyten 726-BA
Laramis
Ross 128
Delta Serpentis
Regulus
Polaris
Epsilon Pegasi
Mirfak
Adhara
Procyon A
Capella
Vasudan worlds
Altair
Aldebarran
Alpha Centuri
Deneb
Mixed/possibly mixed
Beta Aquilae
Sirius
Vega (possibly considering it's location but everything points to it being Terran)
No data on anything to the right of Antares. from FS1 it looks like parts of the T/V war went on there.
Oh, I have no explaination for what vasudan forces were doing in Ross 128 at the start of FS1. As far as I can see they would have had to pass through the Terran's second most important system to get there.
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Originally posted by TopAce
If they begun with Ross 128, then they advanced as:
Ross 128-Ikeya-Betelgeuse-Ribos-Antares-Vasuda-Beta Aquilae-Delta Serpentis-Sol. You can follow the events of the Great War from the Command Briefings of FS1.
FS2 has two systems gone: Capella and Gamma. Capella has gone nova, and its node from Vega was collapsed, making Gamma Draconis unreachable unless the GTVA doesn't discover any alternate nodes to Gamma Draconis or Vega
The Shivans annihilated Altair 4 and Vasuda brutally. It is altogether 10, if I don't count Sol, Gamma Draconis and Altair 4.
Okay. Much strangeness here. The shivans only razed Vasuda and Capella. There is much mention of the fact that the Shivans are ignoring planets and only seeking to control the nodes in FS1.
Sol and GD are also cut off but not destroyed (hopefully) :)
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Do you think perhaps Barnard's Star was included as homage to the HitchHikers' Series?
If it has many jump nodes then this is probably the case as it is "A sort of hyperspace junction, you can get practically anywhere from there."
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Originally posted by karajorma
Terran worlds.
Dubhe
Alphard
Wolf 359
Barnard's Star
Luyten 726-BA
Laramis
Ross 128
Delta Serpentis
Regulus
Polaris
Epsilon Pegasi
Mirfak
Adhara
Procyon A
Capella
Vasudan worlds
Altair
Aldebarran
Alpha Centuri
Deneb
Mixed/possibly mixed
Beta Aquilae
Sirius
Vega (possibly considering it's location but everything points to it being Terran)
I'm willing to agree with that. Most of the formerly-NTF-controlled systems would probably be short in Vasudans, maybe because of genocide or expulsion.
Vega I'll say is mixed, because its pretty close to the Vasudan homeworld, but is still inhabited by one or two Terran fleets now (4th and 3rd).
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
Do you think perhaps Barnard's Star was included as homage to the HitchHikers' Series?
If it has many jump nodes then this is probably the case as it is "A sort of hyperspace junction, you can get practically anywhere from there."
ummmmm it's a real star system,not douglas adams creation
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A newbie!!
*lunges*
*rips apart Egghead with Paul Verhoven-like violence with the assistance of several fire hoses of fake blood*
chew... chew... chew...
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I'm pretty sure that Antares was a Vasudan system in FS1, so its probably entirely Vasudan or mixed by the time of FS2. The Terrans also supposedly had at least 9 Core Systems (probably heavily populated) during the Great War. Admiral Shima says so in one briefing after the Lucifer destroys the Aquilaie Installation and it arrives in Sirius. Beta Aquilaie, in FS1, was supposed to be a mere outpost system, with only an installation and communications station (maybe some small settlements).
I also noticed that in FS1, Sirius had a jump node connecting it to Delta Serpentis. :confused:
One thing that puzzles me is that the RNI corporation supposedly built a major shipyard in orbit of Laramis II. It's where they made the Aeolus cruiser, which probably takes quite a bit of resources. How could a major shipyard have been established in less than 32 years? I mean, Laramis was only first discovered midway through FS1, how could have the population multiplied so much that it became a place ideal for a major shipbuilding facility? :confused:
Yet another confusing thing is the Luyten New Alliance. How could an independant government have arisen out of a system that must have been discovered AFTER Laramis. Luyten is farther from the Terran core systems than Laramis, yet a significant government developed not long after the Great War. How could this have happened? I theorize that Terrans probably have pre-fabricated settlements, so that colonization can flourish? :confused:
As for the Vasudans in Ross 128, they probably got there by establishing a Base early in the war, or maybe before the war, and they kept it as a stronghold to harass the Terrans during the T-V war.
Oh, and any estimates on just how many Terrans and VAsudans there are in the GTVA (as in population numbers)? :confused:
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Sirius had to have a good-sized Vasudan population, otherwise there would have been no NTF genocides.
And the Terrans didn't have 9 systems. At the time the map showed Sol, Beta Aquilae, and Delta Serpentis as green. Laramis had just been discovered, so no Luyten/beyond that systems were populated.
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Terran worlds.
...
Vasudan worlds
...
I think the main problem with that list is that it would seem to make more sense for the Vasudans to have colonized much more extensively. The Vasudans had more of a need to colonize early on due to their inhospitable and resource-limited homeworld than the Terrans did and they seemed to be less dependent on their homeworld than the Terrans were on theirs, so that would indicate that they have spread out a lot more. What is probably more likely is that the species have about five or six systems each (aside from the systems populated by both), while most of the other systems on the starmap are not actually fully colonized due to the lack of suitable planets. Some might be rich in metals, deuterium and such stuff without having habitable planets while others might be on the starmap only because jump nodes leading there have been found (GD is one example).
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Originally posted by Egg Head
ummmmm it's a real star system,not douglas adams creation
I know that, but it's not a particularly well-known one, is it? There must have been something that spurred V into putting it in game.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
I know that, but it's not a particularly well-known one, is it? There must have been something that spurred V into putting it in game.
Barnard's is actually quite a well known star system since it is so close to Earth. (it's actually the second closest system to Earth).
Originally posted by CP5670
I think the main problem with that list is that it would seem to make more sense for the Vasudans to have colonized much more extensively.
Yeah. I'm to too happy about it either. What might be a possibility is that the systems like Ribos and Ikeya were Vasudan because it doesn't seem likely that any of the ones I said were terran were actually Vasudan.
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
I also noticed that in FS1, Sirius had a jump node connecting it to Delta Serpentis. :confused:
There are a few differences between the FS1 and FS2 node maps. The FS2 map is generally taken as being the correct one.
Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
One thing that puzzles me is that the RNI corporation supposedly built a major shipyard in orbit of Laramis II. It's where they made the Aeolus cruiser, which probably takes quite a bit of resources. How could a major shipyard have been established in less than 32 years? I mean, Laramis was only first discovered midway through FS1, how could have the population multiplied so much that it became a place ideal for a major shipbuilding facility? :confused:
32 years is a long time. And a ship building yard doesn't need to be near a major population center. Most likely the Laramis system is very rich in resources making it a good choice for a shipyard.
Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
Yet another confusing thing is the Luyten New Alliance. How could an independant government have arisen out of a system that must have been discovered AFTER Laramis. Luyten is farther from the Terran core systems than Laramis, yet a significant government developed not long after the Great War. How could this have happened? I theorize that Terrans probably have pre-fabricated settlements, so that colonization can flourish? :confused:
Probably. After the war the GTA fractured so probably you got a large number of people heading out to the frontier to make a new lives for themselves.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Barnard's is actually quite a well known star system since it is so close to Earth. (it's actually the second closest system to Earth).
I stand corrected.
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The GTA is just that, an alliance. It is a looser confederation of terran worlds than the Vasudan Imperium. There are most likely smaller regional (neighboring systems) powerblocs and even smaller system groups. Some planets might still have nation-states even.
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Hadn't thought of that, but yes, you are probably right. It'll be the UN, or NATO, I suppose.
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Actually I'd say the GTA (and GTVA for that matter) is closer to the US than NATO or the UN.
The GTVA has a lot of power but the regional blocks (like the states) have their own rights and powers.
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I would actually say that the GTVA is more like the EU with a military than the US. Perhaps more like the US under the Articles of Confederation, but the states have very little power to call their own in this day and age.
Or if you want to stick to the UN idea, its like a UN that actually works.
And out of curiousity, what did this :hopping: replace? While we're on the topic of smilies, I want these (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/images/smilies/headz.gif) (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/images/smilies/bump.gif) (http://dynamic4.gamespy.com/~freespace/forums/images/smilies/wakka.gif) back!
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How much of the total terran pop was concentrated in Sol? I'd go so far as to say ~50%.
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Is Wolf 359 an actual system, or is it just a system that someone made up for their campaign? The name doesn't seem to follow the trends of other systems, as most system names are either in Latin or Greek. This system would be one of the first system with a Western Germanic name. (Personally, I would name it Lupus 359.)
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uhh.. wolf 359 is a real star system. I'd assume from reading it somewhere and from guessing, it's named after the person who discovered it.
Just for reference: It's been featured in a alot of other Sci-Fi stories... Star tRek is the first one that comes to mind (The first battle between the Federation fleet and Locutus's Borg Cube.)
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Wolf 359 gets mentioned a lot for the same reason as Alpha Centuri and Barnard's Star. It is in fact the next closest to us after those two.
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In FS2 the GTVA has a fleet there, so it might be populated.
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it does? where was that mentioned?
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Well, since no one's guessing numbers, i'll pull out my educated guess:
Based on the fact that Capella was a major system, yet it only had 200 million residents (equivalent to US population), and that Capella is fairly recently colonized Vega, Delta Serpentis, Beta Aquilaie, and Antares should probably have populations similar to Capella. As well Cygnus Prime in the Deneb system has something like 100,000 colonists, which is less than the population of Ottawa (the tiny capital city of Canada). since they were colonized much earlier, i'll say that each system has about 500 million to 1 billion residents
Dubhe: 0-3,000; remote system, newly discovered so there's little chance of any major colonization
Alphard:0-3,000; remote system, newly discovered so there's little chance of any major colonization
Wolf 359: 10,000-100,000; It is stated that the GTVA has a fleet there, so there should ideally be something of worth to protect
Barnard's Star: 0-10,000; another remote and newly discovered system, i doubt there could be any major settlements
Luyten 726-BA: 100,000-400,000; There was obviously enough people here to form a Terran powerbloc, so i douby that the population is below 100,000
Laramis: approx. 250,000; since Luyten is probably decently populated, and Laramis was discovered first, not to mention the RNI shipyards, this system probably has a population matching or superior to Luyten's
Ross 128: 0-150,000; In FS1, it was stated that Ross 128 was an outlying colony outpost, so there was probably no large concentration of population
Delta Serpentis: 500 million-1 billion; this being the system first colonized by humans, it probably has a large population, much larger than Capella, which was colonized after the Great War
Regulus: 200,000-10 million; the system's proximity to Polaris and Sirius, who should both have elevated populations, leads me to think that Regulus must have a decent population in the millions
Polaris: 15-100 million; Admiral Bosch obviously saw something in this system, so I doubt he would choose a barren system for his symbolic capital. It being Polaris, I think it should have a pretty high population
Epsilon Pegasi: 1-50 million; Considering Enif's proximity to Capella and Polaris, and its seemingly high importance in FS2, I believe that it should have a population in the millions at the very least. No possible way it could be under a million or else the slaughter of 80,000 people would have been an economic disaster
Mirfak: 0-10,000; This system seems to be of little importance, but we have limited info on it so I cant say much
Adhara:0-10,000; Same as Mirfak
Procyon A: 0-5,000; Same as Mirfak and Adhara
Capella: formerly 200 million; from Cannon facts we know this number, and let us remember that prior to FS2, we never heard of Capella, which probably means it became colonized after the T-V war, which would mean that 200 million moved in during 32 years.
Altair: 500,000-10 million; It was recently discovered in FS2, but it became home to some big shipyards, and then it became adjacent to the new VAsudan Capital. Altair probably became the destination for alot of Vasudans fleeing the Lucifer.
Aldebarran: 400 million-2 billion; As the new capital for the VAsudan gov. it should have hundreds of millions of Vasudans living there.
Alpha Centuri: 300-800 million; With three Jumpnodes, and its proximity to Vasuda and Aldeberran, this system was probably colonized early in the Vasudan's space-age, meaning theres gotta be a lot of them
Deneb: 50 million-100 million; Deneb seemed to be of relatively great importance in both FS games, and it being adjacent to Vasuda leads me to beleive that theres a large concentration of population. But the fact that theres only 100,000 ppl on a planet may shatter my assumption
Beta Aquilae: approx 2 billion; New GTVA capital, nuff said ;)
Sirius: 500,000-40 million; It was a colony in FS1, and it probably swelled in population after the Great War and during the Reconstruction
Vega : 500 million-2 billion; This system was of critical importance in FS1 and it sounds like it is a major centre in FS2, so it probably has a huge population
Antares: 100 million-1 billion; Same as Vega, and the fact that the Antares FEderation actually existed as a powerful bloc
Remember: These are all just assumptions
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That all sounds pretty solid to me. I'd guess that Sol had at least as much as the rest combined.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
it does? where was that mentioned?
Exactly! I don't exactly remember that the original FS canon mentioned anything about Wolf 359. It must have been added my a fan-made campaign that was canonized into the FS canon.
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It was in the failure debriefing stage for one of the later campaign missions. Something like "in light of recent developments, you have been assigned to the 12th Fleet in the remote Wolf 359 system."
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Originally posted by Rampage
Exactly! I don't exactly remember that the original FS canon mentioned anything about Wolf 359. It must have been added my a fan-made campaign that was canonized into the FS canon.
Err no, I meant where did they mention the fleet. The System was on the map, but they never said anything about joining the 12th fleet.
CP, got reference? :)
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It is in sm3-05 (Argonautica), debriefing stage 4.
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oh.. that explains it. Failing debreif?
why the hell would they put you in Wolf 359?
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maybe they think you are too incompetent to fight at the front lines any longer. :D
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They assign you to fly a support ship for the 12th fleet in Wolf 359. If you lose the Aquitaine...well, they probably wouldn't be too happy with you. Funny how, depending on the outcome of one mission, you can go from getting assigned to top-secret SOC missions and command of an elite squadron to flying support ships in the middle of nowhere.
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Originally posted by Shiva Archon
Funny how, depending on the outcome of one mission, you can go from getting assigned to top-secret SOC missions and command of an elite squadron to flying support ships in the middle of nowhere.
ROFL
The Irony is There. It's Your Destiny to Choose It! :D
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Originally posted by CP5670
There are indications that Terrans are higher in number though; for example, in FS1 they said that 4 billion died on Vasuda Prime, which seems a rather small number considering that the most of the planetary surface was razed and there was no time for any mass evacuation. I think if the same had happened to Earth, the death toll would have been much higher especially with the increased population by that time.
Vasuda Prime was so arid and barren before its destruction that it probably could not support more than four billion Vasudans. If you removed all the Vasudans and replaced them with Terrans, the planet would probably be able to sustain less than a billion of them--Vasudans, having evolved to thrive in the desert, probably need a fourth or less as much water as humans.