Hard Light Productions Forums
Hosted Projects - Standalone => Fate of the Galaxy => Archived Star Wars Conversion Threads => Topic started by: Cyber Phoenix on May 15, 2003, 09:16:08 am
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First of let me say that this mod is awesome :cool: me being a SW fan can't wait for it to be released, his there a demo planned?
1) What is the size of the Executor class in this mod?
2)What other ships are going to be included? I s there gona be the vengeance and the allegeance?
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1) its 8 km long here i believe, for gameplay issues and turret number (imagine 120 turrets on a 17.6 km battleship)
2)The mod is mostly going to be concentrated on the ships from the movies, and then subsequently those the fans are most familliar with. Allegiance is a little ambiguous to model as aside from a couple of photos in Dark Empire, we don't see too much of them.
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
1) its 8 km long here i believe, for gameplay issues and turret number (imagine 120 turrets on a 17.6 km battleship)
Actually, the size is so far unconfirmed. We're doing everything we can to keep it canon, so we may well be going with the 17.6 kms, either using a possible SCP bumped turret limit, or just spacing them out evenly and carefully.
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we will know the size of our super star destroyer when we will have a super star destroyer...:)
we are aiming at doing the canon ships first (obviously), it will not take too much for a first release, i hope (once we finish corvette and isd we will have to do just one or two other capships and one or two fighters)
we will add the other ships in further releases, upgrading the older at the same time to make the maximum use possible of the source code modifications
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One more thing are the globes on top of the ISD comand tower going to be scanners subsystems?
I'm asking this because all of the SW games say that the globes are shield generators when they aren't...
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The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels says that they are.
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The Essential Guide to Vehicles and Vessels is wrong!
I'm sorry, but substantial evidence points to the fact that those globes are scanning towers.
Why would the Imperials design their shield generators to be such big fat targets, while not a single other ship has visible generators. The answer is that they are not shield generators.
If they where generators, why is it that the shields were already down when the A-Wings destroyed the globe on top of the Executor. Morever, several seconds before the A-Wing attacking the Executor scene, we see one or two stardestroyers exploding, with both of their bridge tower domes intact.
This shield globe error was begun by West End Games, a group who constantly failed to make proper statistics for their ships. Heck, they even put the wrong number of engines on the Executor, and they made it only 8 km long. This error was recopied into a lot of litterature and even the Essential Guides.
And the creator of the EGTVV, Bill Smith, once worked with WEG, so its typical that he reproduced his flawed work into published material.
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I'm damned if I'm going to get into one of these nerdy debates, I have better things to do, like prove that Picard is far better than Kirk!:nervous:
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ROTJ argues against this. Just before the bridge officer reports they've lost the bridge deflector shields, it shows one of the globes getting destroyed. It makes a lot more sense if the globe was a shield generator.
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I'd also add that the domes don't have to be destroyed for shields to be down, there are countless instances in both the books and the movies where shields have been taken down by excessive pounding - which is logical. Thus, the arguement that "just because the domes on two SDs were intact when the destroyers were destroyed means they're not shield generators" is mute.
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
ROTJ argues against this. Just before the bridge officer reports they've lost the bridge deflector shields, it shows one of the globes getting destroyed. It makes a lot more sense if the globe was a shield generator.
Actually that scene shows that the domes were destroyed to show that the bridge shields were down(after 30 minutes of bombardement by the rebel fleet) and to decrease the accuracy of the Executors weapons to allow the rebel fighters make a strafing run on the brigde with less chances of being destroyed. That his why the domes were destroyed.
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Phoenix is right. The destruction of the globe was an effect of the shields going down, not the cause of it. The fact that the A-Wings managed to destroy it alerted them to the fact that they had lost their shielding. You'll notice that when the Executor is going down in flames, it still has one of its scanner globes intact.
must... resist... urge... to quote... Curtis Saxton...
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Originally posted by LtNarol
I'd also add that the domes don't have to be destroyed for shields to be down, there are countless instances in both the books and the movies where shields have been taken down by excessive pounding - which is logical. Thus, the arguement that "just because the domes on two SDs were intact when the destroyers were destroyed means they're not shield generators" is mute.
True.
But there are various times that in the novels they mention the various sections of the shields like front, port, ventral, dorsal, etc and yet, we don't see any domes in those areas of the ship.
Besides in the original blueprints the domes were labeled Scanner Domes and those are higher cannon than WEG.
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about the shield gen...
i may agree or not, but the point is that in all the games they are considered as shield gens.
this mean the people is used to consider them that way, so they *are* shield gens now, even if they weren't intended to be so
this will not be much a problem anyway:
in our mod you will have to blow shields in the old fashioned way, before being able to destroy those towers.
Destroying the towers will have a strategic sense just to avoid the shields to recharge, like for example in the last BOP mission
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...they...are...sheild...gens...trust...me...
In almost all the SWs games made by LucasArts has you destroy the globes to bring down the shields!
eg: Rebel Assault1, StarWars X-wing, StarWars Tie Fighter, StarWars Rogue Squadron for the GCube, StarWars X-wing Alliance.
Believe me...they are shield generators...I'll email LucasArts to see if they are or not!
Cor
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Damnit, I had a huge explanation as to my position on this subject, but this worthless board lost it and I forgot to use my usual foolproofing methods. I'm too annoyed by the whole situation to go and type it all again.
To sum up, the games have enough errors that you have no reason to trust them, they're just there becuase some programmer, artist, or designer felt they made for good gameplay.
I don't really know that much about modding FS2, so I can't be too sure what can be done. If I were to have an ideal, it would be that the shields be divided into multiple arcs, each with a separate projector component, on the surface, not obvious, and either physically destroyable or at least destroyable as a subsystem. The exception being the bridge arc, which would be housed on or near the domes. The domes would be noted primarily as sensor components, and definitely destroyable. That the shields must be downed first is the best thing I've heard all day.
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The Shields have always come from the towers. The Rebels destroyed the tower so that the shields went down, crashed the A-wing, and the Exec died.
There are plenty of other ships that have visible shield gens. Look around.
And wether anyone thinks they are canon are not, a good point has been brought up that they have been shield generators in every other game that has Star Destroyers in it, so Why would you go and change that now?
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To tell you the truth, setting up shield generators in FS2 would require a good deal of SEXP work in FRED2, AFAIK.
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Originally posted by Cyber Phoenix
True.
But there are various times that in the novels they mention the various sections of the shields like front, port, ventral, dorsal, etc and yet, we don't see any domes in those areas of the ship.
Besides in the original blueprints the domes were labeled Scanner Domes and those are higher cannon than WEG.
There are also many times in the novels where they are directly referred to as shield generators (example: the Wraiths' plan for beinging down the shields on the Iron Fist and Razor's Kiss). Since we don't have shielding technology ourselves, they could be subdivided into different sections despite being projected from one spot.
In fact, it could be that the domes on SDs are the shield generators concentrated in one spot, while on other vessels they're evenly spaced around the ship.
Regardless of whether they are shield or scanner domes, it should be necessary to destroy the shields before destroying the domes. The only way to get to them would probably be to open a hole in the shields with concentrated firepower (much like the Lusankya's escape from Coruscant) or get under the shields (like the Millenium Falcon did in The Courtship of Princess Leia)
Also, the series of events in ROTJ is:
1) The dome is shown blowing up
2.5?) I think the bridge actually rocks/shakes from the explosion
2) The officer says "Sir, we've lost our bridge deflector shield!"
It seems to me like the director was trying to set up a cause-and-effect sequence; if he just wanted to show the shields were down, the officer's notification and the A-wing ramming into the bridge would be sufficient.
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well, a good point was made and reiterated a couple of times:
the shields must be down to get to the shield generators in the first place - regardless of where they are located. if the shields are up, you can't hit the generators or any other component...
i would also say to destroy the shield generators by overload, it would take a really heavy blasting to do so - something like at least 50% of the total damage adsorbtion capability (over time) simultaneously (or near so - within a couple of seconds).
it does not matter to me (personally) if the globes are shield generators or sensor arrays - either would be pretty stupid to put in that location due to its potential vulnerability. perhaps it could be argued that it did not matter due to having shields in the first place.
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There are plenty of other ships that have visible shield gens. Look around.
Some examples please? The Falcon has shields, can't see the generator on that. X-wing, Y-wing etc also have shields, can't see then generator on them either. Queens ships from Episode I has shields, also can't see their generator, which is shown to be a (barely) internal component. The point ift he globes are shield generators, no other shield ship has similar looking components.
Anyway, in this mod will the big ships be shielded?
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Actually, the size is so far unconfirmed. We're doing everything we can to keep it canon...
The Executor was 12.6 km long, the others were 8 kms long. As I know, of course, I am not a staff member in Star Wars mod, but so if you want, you can ignore me.
LucasArts' games are very inaccurate sometimes, XWA says, that ISD is 2 km long, or is that the MonCal? Mind, both are below 2 km, the ISD is 1.6, and the Calamari is 1.2 km.
Anything I am unsure about, I use Behind the Magic to look at it. our visit www.starwars.com. Perhaps the net is the most accurate.
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Originally posted by TopAce
The Executor was 12.6 km long, the others were 8 kms long. As I know, of course, I am not a staff member in Star Wars mod, but so if you want, you can ignore me.
LucasArts' games are very inaccurate sometimes, XWA says, that ISD is 2 km long, or is that the MonCal? Mind, both are below 2 km, the ISD is 1.6, and the Calamari is 1.2 km.
Anything I am unsure about, I use Behind the Magic to look at it. our visit www.starwars.com. Perhaps the net is the most accurate.
Only o fool would dare to question the offical stuff! I advice that your team do it only useing offical sizes/ship loadouts, and forget all this other nonsence created by fans who do nothing but look for thinds to complain about!:mad: I SAY AGIN PLEASE DO IT ALL ON THE OFFICAL STAR WARS WEBSITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:ha: :ha: :ha: :ha:
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Originally posted by StarGunner
Only o fool would dare to question the offical stuff! I advice that your team do it only useing offical sizes/ship loadouts, and forget all this other nonsence created by fans who do nothing but look for thinds to complain about!:mad: I SAY AGIN PLEASE DO IT ALL ON THE OFFICAL STAR WARS WEBSITE!
But what is official? There are plenty of "official" sources which conflict with each other on various things, such as the size of a SSD.
Edit: and SWTC was not made to "look for things[sic] to complain about". :rolleyes: It tries to deduce the size and power of the ships and stations from the movies, instead of looking it up in a sourcebook (Which would be less canon than the movies).
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personally, considering how large the FOV of fs2 is (unless it can be changed), i may evaluate the possibility of having a 18km ssd as first choiche, but ANY consideration will be done whenever we wwill have a definitive ssd..(and changing the proportions of a ship is a 2 minutes job..)
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Originally posted by StarGunner
Only o fool would dare to question the offical stuff! I advice that your team do it only useing offical sizes/ship loadouts, ...
1. That's what I told, that I do belive ONLY for BtM and the OFFICIAL THINGS. I give critism to XWA due the inaccurateness of its database.
2. I am not a teammate.
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The point is, because of the many differences of opinion between fans and LucasArts, fans and LucasFilm, LucasArts and LucasFilm, and fans and fans, there will never be one way to go that will satisfy everybody.
So we need to look at what we are doing here. We're making a MOD for a computer game so that people can have fun in the Star Wars universe.
This means that if a 16.5km Executor is "fun", then that is what will likely be used. If a 1.6Km Star Destroyer looks puny, and is no fun to play with because of the apparent size, then something will have to be done about that.
The central factor is fun, plain and simple. So go have some, and stop bickering. ;) :p
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I'm afraid I have some weirdass questions that are gonna bring up nerdy debate. Can't be helped. First a simple one: what are your current thoughts on capship speed? I think a bit more speed than the FS2 capships would be nice, as we have Star Destroyers repeatedly chasing down the Falcon, which is known to achieve low fighter speeds. I don't know how the capship AI would handle fighter speeds with mediocre maneuverability. Any thoughts?
The second is this: how are you doing the weaponry?
I've seen that you have ion cannons working, and if someone wants to go have a stupid color debate about those they can. But the rather erratic behavior of 'laser' weapons makes me wonder how you intend to do them. Now I haven't learned much about FS2 modding yet, so bear with my lack of knowledge of even your terminology. The simplist method, of course, is just to make a number of pulse weapons with high speeds, on turrets of 1-8 for capships and with fixed cannons for fighters, much like in FS1 gameplay. But that's not exactly how it works. TIE fighters have clearly been shown to fire their chin guns well off-axis. The X-Wing is known to have a much more limited ability to aim its guns (I have difficulty remembering a source for this, could be wrong), and the other fighters are more or less unknown. TIE fire has also been shown to change direction with the TIE that fired the shots, but also has been shown not to do so. Damage has occured before a visible shot has hit. Worst of all, outside of point blank range most shots seem to hit their target in 2-6 seconds, regardless of distance. The visible bolts actually travel at different speeds dependent upon distance to target. Finally, turbolaser fire has changed direction in midcourse as if it were a missile, although with the visual style of SW missiles it's hard to tell the difference, so maybe that was a missile. The highest and most recent EU sources, and indeed a work which may well fit into lowest-tier canon, say that the damaging part of a turbolaser travels at light speed (suggesting invisible beam weapons), while the visible bolt is just wast gasses or a tracer. If anyone here is tempted, please don't try to discuss mechanism. I just want to know whether this will be basicly a FS1 system, or if you have something more elaborite in mind.
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About speed: Speed is interesting: Officially, a Star destroyer can have at most 60 MGLT speed, the Falcon is somehow about 100. In XWA, a StarDest has 6 MGLT and the Falcon is .... 104?(Not sure, perhaps I don't remember well). How do you want to chase down a Capital ship with 60 MGLT speed, target it with bombs, make accurate shots on turrets etc. ? I think the speed of the Star Destroyer is good at about 10-20 FreeSpace m/s.
About lasers. eh .... aiming lasers is a thing programmers would be able to do. I think a laser flying straight for x seconds and then disappears would be sufficent.
How do you want to do the special X-wing firing points? I mean the pair shooting of Upper Left-Bottom Right and Upper Right-Lower Left pair while using dual fire?
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well it would be cool to have a star destroyer chasing a falcon, but it would sound a bit strange to see a white whale faster than a marlin, and capships ai, that is a bit weird in fs2 is not designed for fast speeds.
for all the other things, we will try to make a mix of official star wars games, canon films and new solutions, depending by the possibilities of fs2engine. This mean that surely you will not see the awing lasers firing upuwards or lightspeed turbolars
Our main focus is on playability, my own focus is on xvt, but fun will remain the main objective:)
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Agreed, all is up to the engine(the game engine not the ISD's :)). And of course many other things depend on the SW conversion staff. It looks I have minimal knowledge in a field ... where have you seen an A-wing firing upwards? About capship Ai: I think if the Ai can handle the fighters(as it can) at the speed of 100, the StarDest won't be a (great) matter also. You will certainly see another beviour from the Ai: The ISD has no beams(only tractor beams, but that's tactical weapon, not destructive), so it would do better attempt getting as close to the enemy capital ship as possible. My experience is about this Ai, is that it is attacking the target with its side cannons, and fifty percent of its turret fire don't reach the target, because it fired the blast out of firing range, and stopped moving towards the enemy capital ship. So I just want to say that the capital ship Ai's main problem was not that it cannot handle fast speed very well.
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Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
1) its 8 km long here i believe, for gameplay issues and turret number (imagine 120 turrets on a 17.6 km battleship)
2)The mod is mostly going to be concentrated on the ships from the movies, and then subsequently those the fans are most familliar with. Allegiance is a little ambiguous to model as aside from a couple of photos in Dark Empire, we don't see too much of them.
I hope the SCP removes the turret limit so we can have the SSD in all of its 11-mile-long, 550-turret glory.
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About turbolaser fire, IMO the faster, the better, up to around an actual speed of 2km/s (weapons.tbl speed can sometimes differ). This is especially because the lack of beams requires us to implement a way to make capital ship strafing a dangerous and risky task, and not the cakewalk it is with FS2 capships that are beamless. ;)
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
I hope the SCP removes the turret limit so we can have the SSD in all of its 11-mile-long, 550-turret glory.
That would be EXTREMELY POWERFUL, and would make that ship invulnerable! You are certain in the 17.6 km length? The Colossus is enough big with its 6 km length, and the SSD would be even about 25% longer with its 8 km size ... isn't that enough? :confused:
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The point is that the ISD is supposed to be massive (in the SW universe). FS Orion's should look much larger then they do. But an SSD that is merely the length of a colossus + an orion? Meh.
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Originally posted by TopAce
That would be EXTREMELY POWERFUL, and would make that ship invulnerable! You are certain in the 17.6 km length? The Colossus is enough big with its 6 km length, and the SSD would be even about 25% longer with its 8 km size ... isn't that enough? :confused:
I am 100% certain. Compare the ISDs to the Executor in TESB. That thing's HUGE.
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fs2 fighters go just little slower than sw, right, but this doesn't mean the ai handle fighters well, expecially collisions.
And capships have a different ai than fighters, they are designed to just stay still and fire or at least to slowly proceed from one point to another, surely not to do complicated maneuvres that may be required to proceed so fast (like hunting smaller ships).
And the colossus in fs2 barely looks as if it is as big as a standard isd in other games...
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Originally posted by KARMA
fs2 fighters go just little slower than sw, right, but this doesn't mean the ai handle fighters well, expecially collisions.
And capships have a different ai than fighters, they are designed to just stay still and fire or at least to slowly proceed from one point to another, surely not to do complicated maneuvres that may be required to proceed so fast (like hunting smaller ships).
And the colossus in fs2 barely looks as if it is as big as a standard isd in other games...
WRONG. The ISD is only 1.6km long, smaller than an Orion. Remember than an X-Wing is about 1/3 the size of an Apollo.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
About turbolaser fire, IMO the faster, the better, up to around an actual speed of 2km/s (weapons.tbl speed can sometimes differ). This is especially because the lack of beams requires us to implement a way to make capital ship strafing a dangerous and risky task, and not the cakewalk it is with FS2 capships that are beamless. ;)
2 km/sec would actually be quite good. I believe that the tendency at Endor (where ranges would be FS2-like due to intense jamming) was between 1 km/s and 6 km/s. Good, simple bolt weapons are probably the best, I have to agree. But remember, a medium turbolaser could take out a fighter with one hit, but should never be able to actually hit it. In fact, I'd hard code against MTL and HTL use against fighters. You might not want to use HTL against medium ships or transports either.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
WRONG. The ISD is only 1.6km long, smaller than an Orion. Remember than an X-Wing is about 1/3 the size of an Apollo.
ahem.... i've not said a colossus is as big as an isd:rolleyes: i've said that LOOKS of the size an ISD, as ISD appear in other games. This is due to FOV, that in fs2 is extremely wide.
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Yeah, in XWA, and XvT you see the ISD(1.6 km) bigger than the Orion(about 2 km) in FS. Each game handles sizes different way. I disagree with the same size of the Colossus and the ISD, The StarDest is smaller anyway than the Colossus.
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Karma was meaning that the Colossus has an apparent size in FS2 similar to the apparent size of an ISD in XWA, nothing more.
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Understood
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Originally posted by TopAce
Understood
WTF WAS THE HOLE LASERS CHACEING SHIPS THING!? THEY NEVER DID THAT! PEOPLE ARE JUST TOO PIKY ABOUT THIS MODS STUFF, I SAY **** EM DO IT YOUR WAY THEY DON'T LIKE IT, THEN THEY CAN MAKE THEIR OWN MOD!
Please lock this thread if you do it your own way like I said.
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Why did you quote my 'Understood' word in your post? What's your problem with me man? I said nothing.
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Originally posted by Tar-Palantir
Some examples please? The Falcon has shields, can't see the generator on that. X-wing, Y-wing etc also have shields, can't see then generator on them either. Queens ships from Episode I has shields, also can't see their generator, which is shown to be a (barely) internal component. The point ift he globes are shield generators, no other shield ship has similar looking components.
Anyway, in this mod will the big ships be shielded?
I could be wrong, I haven't played it in a long time, but IIRC, half the ships in XWA had visible sheild gens.
IMO, it works more or less on the same principle as Freespace Capship subsystems. With a few bombs, you can take out an orions ability to use its weapons or engines. Is that poor engineering/designing? Not completely, it's just where the systems are located, and just like weapons fire can destroy the hull, it can destroy the subsystems located within the hull.
Now it's not like the Star Destroyer's shield Gens are able to be killed with a laser shot, or even one missle. They are armoured just as any of the other systems on the star destroyer. For another example, take the Radar dish on the Fenris or the Weapons system on any of the Freespace ships? Is it poor designing to not have the radar dish buried in the center of the ship or the weapons systems? Besides the fact that not everything can be buried within the hull, where other things take room, having things such as vulnerable turrets, shield gens, and sub systems makes the game more tactical and over all funner.
About the ship sizes, Sandy has a point in that the star Destroyers looked a lot bigger than they would in freespace. Maybe for a mod or the Star Wars project you could edit the field of view to reflect the sizes better? ;7
About the turbolasers, from my understanding, it wasn't the speed of the bolt that made them hard to hit fighters, but their overall burlyness and the rate at which the turret tracks the fighter. I'm not sure how big a general Turbolaser turret is supposed to be, but from the Essential Guides, they dwarf the X-Wings. But I think Sandy is on the mark with the speed. Bassically anything fast than 1km/sec is lightning fast for FS though.
And does anybody know what Stargunner is talking about?
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All ships in SW have shield generators but many of them are so little(expect StarDests, and a few more ships), and cannot be hit only once every two billion shots(it's a bit exegeneration :), but if you have a look at the Essential guides, you can see how small a shield gen of the X-wing is).
To Alan Bolte: I mean that all ships have LITTLE shield gens expect the Star Destroyers and a few more ships. Oh, that bracket was not in good place.:mad:
Updated. ;)
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Originally posted by TopAce
All ships in SW have shield generators(expect StarDests)
:confused:
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Originally posted by TopAce
About speed: Speed is interesting: Officially, a Star destroyer can have at most 60 MGLT speed, the Falcon is somehow about 100. In XWA, a StarDest has 6 MGLT and the Falcon is .... 104?(Not sure, perhaps I don't remember well). How do you want to chase down a Capital ship with 60 MGLT speed, target it with bombs, make accurate shots on turrets etc. ? I think the speed of the Star Destroyer is good at about 10-20 FreeSpace m/s.
About lasers. eh .... aiming lasers is a thing programmers would be able to do. I think a laser flying straight for x seconds and then disappears would be sufficent.
How do you want to do the special X-wing firing points? I mean the pair shooting of Upper Left-Bottom Right and Upper Right-Lower Left pair while using dual fire?
I've seen calculations that indicate 1 MGLT = 1 m/s.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
About the ship sizes, Sandy has a point in that the star Destroyers looked a lot bigger than they would in freespace. Maybe for a mod or the Star Wars project you could edit the field of view to reflect the sizes better? ;7
Maybe. Although it would make an Apollo-sized ship look enormous.
And does anybody know what Stargunner is talking about?
Nope.
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we've also seen calculations that a turbolaser shot is compareable in force to a nuclear warhead. :doubt:
Point being, it's all relative anyways. Meaning, however fast the Falcon is in FS, then the star destroyers shouldn't be all that slower. Unless there is AI conflictions of course.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
we've also seen calculations that a turbolaser shot is compareable in force to a nuclear warhead.
Or greater. The big dorsal TLs dish out 200-gigaton blasts. I would never have believed it until I stumbled across stardestroyer.net, but it's true. One blast from a heavy ISD TL would probably level an area of land the size of Maine.
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1mglt is close to 1 m/s
IIRC in XvT (i verified with a chronometer...) a TF has an official speed of 100 mglt but around 104 m/s in game (not sure, i should check my notes, but i remember it was little over 100m/s)
now, if this depend by XvT physic or the effective measue of 1mglt, i don't know, we are using in our mod 1mglt=1m/s (so to have 100 as top speed in the hud)
About stardestroyers speed, in ANH and ESB you see a stardestroyer chasing the falcon at sublight speed, this means that it is at least as fast as the falcon itself, no matter what official or semiofficial sources says. The point is that the falcon is far far more manuevrable than such a big ship
The points in my opinion are:
1- FS2 AI suck, fighters always collide with each others and have problems avoiding obstacles, i think that a Stardestroyer that goes at a fighter speed will simply crash everything in his run:), take in mind that in FS2 Capships are designed to just stay still and fire at whatever comes in the firing range, no more no less
2-people are used to see capships moving very slow in almost any space sim ever produced, and expecially in the SW space sims
3- i think that there are some strategic reasons to have star destroyers slow, for example it would be difficult to attack a Stardestroyer with an yw, when she goes FASTER than you ehehe
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Originally posted by KARMA
1mglt is close to 1 m/s
IIRC in XvT (i verified with a chronometer...) a TF has an official speed of 100 mglt but around 104 m/s in game (not sure, i should check my notes, but i remember it was little over 100m/s)
now, if this depend by XvT physic or the effective measue of 1mglt, i don't know, we are using in our mod 1mglt=1m/s (so to have 100 as top speed in the hud)
About stardestroyers speed, in ANH and ESB you see a stardestroyer chasing the falcon at sublight speed, this means that it is at least as fast as the falcon itself, no matter what official or semiofficial sources says. The point is that the falcon is far far more manuevrable than such a big ship
The points in my opinion are:
1- FS2 AI suck, fighters always collide with each others and have problems avoiding obstacles, i think that a Stardestroyer that goes at a fighter speed will simply crash everything in his run:), take in mind that in FS2 Capships are designed to just stay still and fire at whatever comes in the firing range, no more no less
2-people are used to see capships moving very slow in almost any space sim ever produced, and expecially in the SW space sims
3- i think that there are some strategic reasons to have star destroyers slow, for example it would be difficult to attack a Stardestroyer with an yw, when she goes FASTER than you ehehe
Remember that in the movies that ships do not have maximum speeds. They could theoretically reach c given infinite time.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Or greater. The big dorsal TLs dish out 200-gigaton blasts. I would never have believed it until I stumbled across stardestroyer.net, but it's true. One blast from a heavy ISD TL would probably level an area of land the size of Maine.
sorry, I forgot to add my [sarcasm] tags. :)
Seriously though, thats the most retarded Idea I've ever heard. I mean, if they could do that much damage, there would be little point in the deathstar, or the attack on hoth, and I doubt any of the ships would last longer than a few seconds with their shields down.. :blah:
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
sorry, I forgot to add my [sarcasm] tags. :)
Seriously though, thats the most retarded Idea I've ever heard. I mean, if they could do that much damage, there would be little point in the deathstar, or the attack on hoth, and I doubt any of the ships would last longer than a few seconds with their shields down.. :blah:
First of all, a lone Star Destroyer can sterilize a planet in a procedure known as Base Delta Zero. The process only takes a few hours even with one ISD, several are often used to wreck the planet more quickly and increase the chance of eliminating all witnesses. However, the Death Star is designed to be far more terrifying than a BDZ attack. Turning a planet into a radioactive wasteland is one thing, blowing it up like a bomb is another.
Second, Hoth had a powerful theater shield that could block even heavy TL bolts. It would take days or weeks for the Imperial strike force to overwhelm the shield, so they sent in AT-ATs to get the job done quicker.
Third, SW ships have a crapload of armor. But I don't think it lasts very long under a barrage of heavy TL turrets.
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riight.. and a steady barage of turbolaserblasts at the said theorhetical power level from a few Destroyers wouldn't more or less blow the planet to pieces?
Hoth was an ice planet anyways. If they really wanted to **** things up, they could have just drown the rebels in their own base with a turbolaser shot or two apparently...
And they can't have that much armour. The Star Destroyers look kinda bare bones to me. Yeah, there's a good deal, but enough to deflect/absorb that much power condensed into a missle-sizeish bolt? Let alone the Corelian Corvettes.
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I couldn't find the 200-gigaton energy estimates for heavy TLs, but this page (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html) states that a heavy TL bolt would pack several gigatons at the very LEAST. If there are variable power settings for TLs, 200-gigaton blasts may well be possible.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
riight.. and a steady barage of turbolaserblasts at the said theorhetical power level from a few Destroyers wouldn't more or less blow the planet to pieces?
Hoth was an ice planet anyways. If they really wanted to **** things up, they could have just drown the rebels in their own base with a turbolaser shot or two apparently...
And they can't have that much armour. The Star Destroyers look kinda bare bones to me. Yeah, there's a good deal, but enough to deflect/absorb that much power condensed into a missle-sizeish bolt? Let alone the Corelian Corvettes.
Umm, the Corellian Corvette wasn't even fired at with heavy bolts. Heavy TLs probably would've destroyed it, and Vader wanted it intact, which is why the stormies didn't chuck thermal detonators into the vessel.
Also, a BDZ attack does NOT blow a planet to pieces. It merely renders it uninhabitable and often melts the crust.
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200 Gigatons is a direct quote from the Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections book. It's talking about the primary turbolaser batteries on an Acclamator-class military transport. Keep in mind that a laser is not an nuclear explosive. What we have here is a weapon of unknown composistion, but with some of the properties I have already mentioned, capable of delivering 8.4E11 J of energy over an unknown duration, probably well under one second. (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/vehicles/044victory.jpg) Also, I don't think some of you fully appreciate the difference in the amount of energy required to overcome the gravitational binding energy of a planet and shatter it as opposed to just melting the surface. Besides that, the reason the Death Star was so significant was not that it could destroy a planet, but that it could overcome the shielding surrounding every planet of any importance. Alderaan's shields were the best money could buy, and the DS just shot right through them. That's a message, ladies and gents.
Finally, as to Hoth, the real issue was that the only bombardment that would be possible even without the shield would be a few pinpoint strikes, followed by the same land assault we saw and capturing of fleeing ships. Keep in mind the Darth Vader's primary goal at Hoth was to capture his son alive.
SW armor is incredibly dense, far beyond current materials science. A low power fusion rocket would only scortch the hull. But a Star Destroyer's main batteries would destroy another ship with only one shot without the shields. For smaller ships, the shields wouldn't do any good, either.
Game mechanics are nothing more than game mechanics. If you feel XWA speeds are are what will work with FS2 the best (likely true, within limits), then we will use those, but real SW ships move in the land of Newtonian physics, high acceleration, and gravitaional control.
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:lol: sorry, i just can't help sticking a link to this (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,13735.0.html) page up. :D i think Cannikin pretty much summed it up there, shot it with an 800 giaton turbolaser and earned a Rant-Yourself-A-Title award :D
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
I've seen calculations that indicate 1 MGLT = 1 m/s.
I could guess it immediatly, but I wanted to write that there are differences between official stuff and XWA. Take the ISD speed for example.
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I'd like to put down a few things I think are important.
Gameplay >= Realism.
None of this is real. Therefore, Gameplay > Conjecture.
This is our own project, and we do not need to stick to the Totally Games precidents of turning at 33% throttle, ISD shield generators, SSD size, etc. If you want to play X-Wing Alliance, go play X-Wing Alliance.
We will attempt to maintain the 'feel' of the original games, however, this is the Freespace engine and we must consider how Freespace-style gameplay is handled.
There are many conflicting sources on the Internet and in print. We will go with whatever seems closest to the movies, and is suitable for gameplay.
Our weapons are not specified in gigatons. They are specified in Hitpoints. They will be optimized for play balance.
I am Oz, the great and terrible.
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Our weapons are not specified in gigatons. They are specified in Hitpoints. They will be optimized for play balance.
Gigapoints? HitTons? :nervous:
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He meant that the lasers have no property of 'gigaton = weight', it has the property of 'hitpoints = points' to base the damage levels of the weapons.
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Not exactly. When someone talks about weapons in tons, megatons, gigatons etc., they're refferring to the amount of TNT one would need to blow up to create the equivalent amount of damage. When people start alking about fictional weapons in these terms, thy're generally taking it too seriously.
What GE meant is that lasers in game will be balanced for the game, doing damage in hitpoints, the same measures that FS uses to define the strength of its ships.
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Bah - you both take me far too seriously... seriously! :p Notice I switched around the gigatons - hitpoints to gigapoints - hittons...? :D *hint hint nudge nudge*
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You guys are gonna be seing this kind of thing at least every few weeks for the entirety of the time this forum exists. I highly suggest eventually putting some of your thoughts on relevant items such as 'whatever makes it fun' into the FAQ, which of course could use some updating, as could the rest of the site. All in good time, and better to have a good update then a frequent update, I always say. These kind of arguments have very little bearing on the mod itself, unless some one decides they want a crossover campaign, which by my understanding, this isn't it. So you can either ignore them, join them if you find that fun, or close a thread every time it comes up, with a message to read whatever you have on the FAQ.
Wheehoo.
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Originally posted by Alan Bolte
You guys are gonna be seing this kind of thing at least every few weeks for the entirety of the time this forum exists. I highly suggest eventually putting some of your thoughts on relevant items such as 'whatever makes it fun' into the FAQ, which of course could use some updating, as could the rest of the site. All in good time, and better to have a good update then a frequent update, I always say. These kind of arguments have very little bearing on the mod itself, unless some one decides they want a crossover campaign, which by my understanding, this isn't it. So you can either ignore them, join them if you find that fun, or close a thread every time it comes up, with a message to read whatever you have on the FAQ.
Wheehoo.
:nod: :yes:
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Right! That's it! I'm posing in the HLP Request Thread to get Karma FTP access!!
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well I've sent enough mail requests for myself:hopping: , I just hope I'll gain more attention with the request for our new webmaster..........;) :eek: