Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Nico on May 16, 2003, 03:08:22 pm
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oh well, I didn't plan to post about this, but I guess it's a bit selfish so:
(http://www.swooh.com/premium/venom/variouspics/afp00.jpg)
(http://www.swooh.com/premium/venom/variouspics/afp01.jpg)
(http://www.swooh.com/premium/venom/variouspics/afp02.jpg)
(http://www.swooh.com/premium/venom/variouspics/afp03.jpg)
(http://www.swooh.com/premium/venom/variouspics/afp04.jpg)
Don't hold your breath tho, it's not a campaign I'm working on or anything, it's just me toying around. of course the idea doesn't come from nowhere, I do have a plot and stuff, but that kind of things has obvious gameplay issues that can't be fixed w/o serious code editing ( I see three main ones. )
now, for the explanation, the test was to figure out:
1) how FS2 would handle very high detailled models (look closely, the F22 has a modelled cockpit, with a pilot and all )
-> FS2 fails miserably, the Zbuffer is crappy ( but the cockpit+pilot submodel has its normals flipped, that doesn't help )
2) how to make a convincing sky
-> I'm more than happy with it, it's very easy actually, just have to use the right shape for the mesh plus a cleverly done map
3) how to merge the ground and the sky flawlessly
-> currently it's a big failure ( that's why the sky pof has been moved up and you can see space between the landscape and the ground on those pics ). but it's my own fault, I'll try a circular ground mesh next time, I think that should fix the cliping pb at high altitude ( that damn Zbuffer again )
4) wanted to test the primary with ammunitions from of SCP exe.
-> great job guys, it works wonderful
5) wanted to see how gameplay would be affected with "slightly" different tbls for the ships: top speed w/o the burners for the raptor is 150, 180 with burners if I remember right., no shields, very low HP ( two or three lasers will kill you, a collision with another ship/plane will kill you too ). aliens have a big damping factor, and lower speed.
-> I'm most pleased with that:
F22vsF22 dogfight proves to be very challenging ( yes, a 1vs1 dogfight ), it's not easy following the enemy at this speed, and it's actually very fun.
f22 vs alien is even more fun: the damping is very disturbing for a human player, but for the computer it doesn't seem to be a big deal. at first it seems the ships fly the same ( that's because of the shape of the alien, in fact ), but the cool thing is that they can face you even while flying in another direction than the "I rush up your face" tactic. which makes them more dangerous. sometimes they fly dumb as usual, and sometimes they just keep turning in every direction, making funny sidestep whirling moves. makes them quite difficult to aim at, then. and it's cool. they're easier to shoot down than a f22 tho, since they're slower.
I plan to fix the bugs of that thing and release a complete mission... well, someday, but if you insist I can upload the current version, but it's full of bugs:
you can fly through the ground ( just a matter of fixing the mass of the pof in modelview actually, I think )
there's the clipping bugs on the F22
have to remove the turrent entries on the medium sized alien.
but other than that it's nice enough I believe.
voila, I hope you could bear with that long "essay" :p
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what kind of z buffer you got in the f22 model? and are your engine inlets working fine?
very nice thing btw:)
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:eek: WOW... [Drools]
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HOLY SH1T!:eek: :eek2:
EDIT: upload, yeh!
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venom, once we can get some major engine upgrades with the SCP you should be able to do all this. but this is all long term stuff
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Woah...
That your model?
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Originally posted by KARMA
what kind of z buffer you got in the f22 model? and are your engine inlets working fine?
very nice thing btw:)
mmh? what you mean? Zbuffer is a 3D engine stuff.
engine inlets? what's with them ( but no, they have clipping pbs too, as you can see on the second pic )?
Phreak: as I said I don't plan on doing a campaign out of that, so...
anyway, just for record, what should be needed for someone who wants to do such a thing:
1) "gravity". if the plane goes under a certain speed, it starts going down on the vertical axis, the more it slows down, the faster it falls. should be a ships.tbl flag so you can have ships not affected with gravity.
2) autolevel: when doing nothing, a plane should autolevel so it doesn't stupidly fly upside/down, for exemple ( so ship aligning to the Y axis of the world ).
3) don't remember what 3) was.
skynet: yeah? maps are made up from pics taken from the net.
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Originally posted by Venom
mmh? what you mean? Zbuffer is a 3D engine stuff.
engine inlets? what's with them ( but no, they have clipping pbs too, as you can see on the second pic )?
i know about zbuffer, i'd just like to know how it looks like in your model
about the engine inlets i was curious because i never had engine inlets (as for any convex element..) without clippings
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Just out of curiousity for the people who are fredding ground missions and such; how do you get things to go on the ground? Like trucks or whatever?
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Thats the USAF model isnt it.
I found the original USAF models converted to max a while ago.
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F22 Raptor, SWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEET!!!!!
I'm kind of a military buff so this is very cool for me.
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OMFG!!!! :eek2: That is incredible! This is one of the things people have been talking about and requesting since the earliest days of FS1! And it's been done!
Any chance whatsoever that we might be able to get our hands on some models and/or the way you did this? Details details details! There are so many potential uses for something like this... It's... I dunno, incredible again :D
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[Q]Originally posted by Black Wolf
OMFG!!!! :eek2: That is incredible! [/Q]
My thoughts exactly... :eek2: That's amazing...
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GROUND! SKY! ME WANTS!:eek2:
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Originally posted by Deepblue
Thats the USAF model isnt it.
I found the original USAF models converted to max a while ago.
no, that's mine. but if I could get my hands on those, that would help me :p
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Cool. :eek2:
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whoa
:yes:
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Venom *IS* god :yes:
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Originally posted by Amon_Re
Venom *IS* god :yes:
:nod:
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heh, you finally figured it? :D
anyway, there you go:
http://www.swooh.com/premium/venom/FS2files/AFtest.zip ( 2.6 mb )
enjoy.
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404 :(
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Originally posted by Venom
heh, you finally figured it? :D
*CHOP*
God of the Headless
This means you almost control everyone at HLP:p
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
404 :(
sorry about that, it's ok now.
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Originally posted by Tiara
*CHOP*
God of the Headless
This means you almost control everyone at HLP:p
thanks, my dear minion, bring me more slaves :D
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Originally posted by Venom
thanks, my dear minion, bring me more slaves :D
Shaddap, you brainless zombie :p I am going to tell you 1 more time... and ONLY 1 more time. Listen carefully now:
I am NOT[/i][/u] your minion.
Say it again and you lose your balls. Say it again and you lose your well... you'll see. :p
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Originally posted by Tiara
Shaddap, you brainless zombie :p I am going to tell you 1 more time... and ONLY 1 more time. Listen carefully now:
I am NOT[/i][/u] your minion.
Say it again and you lose your balls. Say it again and you lose your well... you'll see. :p
no pb, I grow them myself :p
now stop spamming my thread, you underling :p
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Originally posted by Venom
no, that's mine. but if I could get my hands on those, that would help me :p
clickity (http://www.bobsyouruncle.net/downloads/Original_USAF_in_Max.zip)
and you can choose the skins you want (http://www.bobsyouruncle.net/skins.htm)
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Say it again and you lose your balls. Say it again and you lose your well... you'll see
Somebody remind me never to piss off Tiara
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:eek: WOW WOW WOW WOW WOW :eek:
This is excellent work, Venom! By far the most realistic atmosphere I've seen in the FS2 engine yet! :yes:
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Hmmm - after playing around a bit I've realized that it isn;t quite the atmospheric ground combat we've always wanted - butthe only issue is the ground - it's too big, s at normal F2 speeds, it doesn't appear to move under you (or aqt least, not very quickly).
Still, the sky owns all :)
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Originally posted by Deepblue
clickity (http://www.bobsyouruncle.net/downloads/Original_USAF_in_Max.zip)
and you can choose the skins you want (http://www.bobsyouruncle.net/skins.htm)
dead link.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Hmmm - after playing around a bit I've realized that it isn;t quite the atmospheric ground combat we've always wanted - butthe only issue is the ground - it's too big, s at normal F2 speeds, it doesn't appear to move under you (or aqt least, not very quickly).
Still, the sky owns all :)
well, of course, what did you expect? :p
the ground is far above, you're flying at high altitude, so it doesn't appear to move much. plus the map is too blurry, a 1024*1024 map for a 160km large object is just not enough.
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Originally posted by Venom
no pb, I grow them myself :p
now stop spamming my thread, you underling :p
*CHOP*
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*dodges*
hell, that was easier than I thought :p
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Originally posted by Venom
*dodges*
hell, that was easier than I thought :p
You really think I missed? *grins*
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Originally posted by Venom
well, of course, what did you expect? :p
the ground is far above, you're flying at high altitude, so it doesn't appear to move much. plus the map is too blurry, a 1024*1024 map for a 160km large object is just not enough.
Well, you could do what TBP did for their close Earth/Mars orbit models and use many smaller maps.
Looks very good! Since your meant to be at high altitude, is the model of the land going to be detailed with things like mountians?
But which FS2 craft would be able to fly in an atmosphere?
'starts thinking about how he could use this in campain....'
God, I got dozens of ideas of what you could do with this....
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Originally posted by Tiara
You really think I missed? *grins*
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Raptor
1)Well, you could do what TBP did for their close Earth/Mars orbit models and use many smaller maps.
2)Looks very good! Since your meant to be at high altitude, is the model of the land going to be detailed with things like mountians?
3)But which FS2 craft would be able to fly in an atmosphere?
4)'starts thinking about how he could use this in campain....'
God, I got dozens of ideas of what you could do with this....
1) well yeah, I thought about that ( I've stuff like that for ages anyway ), but for a landscape, either it's an horrible amount of work making a convincing one, either I have to find a very high res ( at least 4000*4000 ) satellite shot w/o clouds in the way.
first option I just can't bother, second option, I doubt I could find anything like that for free.
2) it's high altitude because I didn't want to bother with the AI colliding with the ground. I didn't work much on how the ground looks like since it wasn't the purpose of the test.
3) up to you
4) heh
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I suppose even with a fairly flat, boring ground, one could add mountains, hills, trees, buildings and other things to make it interesting simply by having them as seperate models. Question then is, how many models can you spend on an interesting looking ground before freespace starts to slow down?
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Originally posted by Exarch
I suppose even with a fairly flat, boring ground, one could add mountains, hills, trees, buildings and other things to make it interesting simply by having them as seperate models. Question then is, how many models can you spend on an interesting looking ground before freespace starts to slow down?
no, it's not that simple. if you just put, say, a building on top of the ground, it'll just disappear if you put some distance between that building and you, because fs2 handles clipping like **** ( and they said it's an upgraded version of the Descent engine? my ass ).
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I don't think that's a problem. I mean it's still different than what we're used to in fs2.
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well, to me, placing buildings and stuff that will end up being invisible most of the time ingame, that's quite a pb, no?
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I assumed that because these objects would be invisible, if you were to create them, that you would remove them. Thus not having these objects would be considered by some to be a lose, THAT is the "no biggie."
I may not be a professor venom, but do I come across as so stupid that flying smack into a highrise sounds good to me?
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hmm, my lack of patience means that I won't discuss this furthermore. I think I was clear enough about the why and the how a few posts ago :p
anyway.
I'll put an updated version up soon. will have better F22 and alien models, plus, wow!!! a missile ( sidewinder ) !!!! how cool is that? :p
ok, I'll shut up now :p
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venom, it will disappear even if it is another object or a subobject?
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I think what he's saying (rather clearly) is that you'll be flying so high up (relatively far) from the ground that you wouldn't see the buildings or trees. He's explaining that the FS2 engine clips things poorly and objects don't really "fade" as you get farther away, but disapear. And the way he has it set up is that you're flying so far from the ground that the game would'nt draw the house or tree.
Consider this: Start a ship a few meters away from an orion and keep your eye on one of its turrets. Now fly away from it, but keep your eye on that turret (with the use of rear view key). You'll notice that the turret will completely disapear after you reach a certain distance b/c the game engine doesn't process it anymore (its still there, it just doesn't graphically draw it).
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Originally posted by J3Vr6
I think what he's saying (rather clearly) is that you'll be flying so high up (relatively far) from the ground that you wouldn't see the buildings or trees. He's explaining that the FS2 engine clips things poorly and objects don't really "fade" as you get farther away, but disapear. And the way he has it set up is that you're flying so far from the ground that the game would'nt draw the house or tree.
Consider this: Start a ship a few meters away from an orion and keep your eye on one of its turrets. Now fly away from it, but keep your eye on that turret (with the use of rear view key). You'll notice that the turret will completely disapear after you reach a certain distance b/c the game engine doesn't process it anymore (its still there, it just doesn't graphically draw it).
Well, not exactly. The reason turrets dissapear on ships like that when you fly away from them is that Freespace uses a primitive Level of Detail (LOD) system. All the LOD levels besides the first have no turrets on most Freespace models, so they are not drawn. The problem that Venom is describing is related to the reason you can sometimes see turrets through the sides of ships, Freespace can't decide which object to render on top and almost always chooses the wrong one. At long range, the terrain, being much bigger, would swollow up, almost literally, anything you put on top of it unless you were right there on it.
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voila, stratcomm got it.
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Originally posted by StratComm
Well, not exactly. The reason turrets dissapear on ships like that when you fly away from them is that Freespace uses a primitive Level of Detail (LOD) system. All the LOD levels besides the first have no turrets on most Freespace models, so they are not drawn. The problem that Venom is describing is related to the reason you can sometimes see turrets through the sides of ships, Freespace can't decide which object to render on top and almost always chooses the wrong one. At long range, the terrain, being much bigger, would swollow up, almost literally, anything you put on top of it unless you were right there on it.
Yes, I've had that happen with my beams lately. The beams are drawn behind the ship (90% of the time) , even when the beam is, relatively, in front of the ship. This looks realy strange with slashers indeed.:hopping:
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I've only just discovered this thread.
HOLY ****! Is all I can say!
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thx.
well, the clipping in FS2 has always been a major pain in the ass...
maybe something the SCP could work on?
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doh i can see what were you talking about now, btw i thought it was something happening only with "hidden" polys (the turrets below an edge, the engine inlets..) with some conditions increasing or decreasing the effect, but i realize that at that distance from the ground the distance between the building edges and the size of those building would be so minimal that it can cause those problems, expecially on an engine not build for these things...and expecially on fs2:p
and you are right, it's pure pain in the ass (i got something like this in the last three models i worked on, and i spent a lot of time trying to reduce it) and i'd like too to see some code improovments on this things, but i think(hope) it is already scheduled, but it also sound as something little difficult to be fixed.
Maybe trying some very big/simple structures properly textured to simulate those cities? if you fly so far from ground you don't need much details
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well I wondered... they say the FS2 engine is a derivative from the descent engne right? descent handled all that perfectly, and if I'm not mistaken the source for descent has been released too, no? maybe it's just a matter of adapting the descent zbuffer code to fs2?
...
ok I doubt it would be that simple.
about the buildings, with some work I could make those w/o the pb above ( I just remove a poly from the ground and build from there ). but that's a lot of work ( scaling, etc, I have no idea what's the scale of the thing is, I just made a model and edcided it would be 160km wide :p ).
and for that altitude thing, one can't stop the player from going down to check how the ground looks like seen for close view :p
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Um, so who's going to model the JSF F(previously X)35?:nervous:
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definitively not me.
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...but this REALLY impressed me. :eek2:
If anyone remembers one of my threads where I wanted movable ship parts, this is one of the reasons. The F-22 is one of the first non-prototypes to have T-V nozzles. VERYnice model, bt a bit too high-poly for the current engine.
As for the XF-35... I suppose it'd take some time, but for one you don't have to do T-Vs, as only one variant has them.
Anyhow... excellent work, a couple more planes and this could be a flashy TC. ;7
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Heh, I was wondering where this thread came from. ;) Nico did do quite an impressive job on this one... actually, now I can't remember why he dropped the whole thing. Maybe some of us should have a look at bringing it back to life.
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I didn't "drop" it, I had no plans for it to begin with. Was just experimentation. Was cool :p
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Well, something as good as this shouldn't stop at just an experiment. If nothing, I could use that skybox and plane. *nudge*
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well, use it if you want. There was an idea behind all that ( there always is one, with me ), with a ( quite conventional ) plot and stuff, but I never planed to turn it into anything.
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Much obliged. Now all I have to do is figure trueSpace out and make a plane or two.
Don't hold your breath, though, I doubt I'll be done with it anytime soon. :sigh:
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Hey wow that is cool. A really nicely modeled and modded YF-22 into the FreeSpace 2 engine.
Now all we need is a F-22A, a Eurofighter, and an Su-35 and we'd have a multinational fighter force taking the fight to the aliens :D
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Originally posted by IceFire
Hey wow that is cool. A really nicely modeled and modded YF-22 into the FreeSpace 2 engine.
Now all we need is a F-22A, a Eurofighter, and an Su-35 and we'd have a multinational fighter force taking the fight to the aliens :D
A-10 :D
Actually, I had a (pretty damn accurate) Spitfire way back when I started modelling. couldn't texture the damn thing, of course.
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Originally posted by IceFire
Hey wow that is cool. A really nicely modeled and modded YF-22 into the FreeSpace 2 engine.
Now all we need is a F-22A, a Eurofighter, and an Su-35 and we'd have a multinational fighter force taking the fight to the aliens :D
The idea I had featured two planes from each campaign location:
1) USA: F16 Falcon, F23 Black Widow ( I prefer the YF23, so sue me )
2) France: Mirage 2000-5, Rafale-C
3) Great Britain: AV8B Harrier, Eurofighter Typhoon
4) Russia: Su27 Flanker, S37 Berkut
5) Sweden: JAS37 Viggen, JAS39 Grippen
( in this chronological order )
Then a couple planes that come straight out of my mind, for the last, wheeeee!!! style campaign, ( which starts on Groenland ).
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O_O
*drops dead, totally speechless*
F22....pretty.....
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Nice tour of duty you had planned, Venom. Maybe you should just make the wheeeee!!! style campaign, it sounds like it would be the most fun. :D
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no models, no fredders, no time, so in short, no.
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Wow, way to say no. :p
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Stealth[cro], are you a Croatian?
If there aren't a F-14 or a A-10, then I don't care....
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Nico - That's a pretty restricted list there, after all, each nation has its own fighter, bomber AND assault class, even several of them, not to mention "bonuses". I'm pretty sure anyone'd kill for an Su-47 Berkut flight, then again, an Su-37 Terminator or a MiG-35 1.42 MAPO-MFI would be just as nice (especially the latter as it's stealth-capable).
To expand on your list, from fighters, bombers and assaults to specials:
I.E.:
USNAF - F-14 Tomcat, F-117 Nighthawk, A-10 Warthog II or F-4D Phantom II, YF-23 ATF or (X)F-35 JSF
France - Rafale or Mirage F.1, Mirage 2000, Mirage IV, Avro Vulcan or Avro Arrow (maybe Canada'd be involved?)
UK/DE/IT - Panavia Tornado ADV, Panavia Tornado IDS, Hawker Harrier II VTOL, special... maybe a German MiG-29K?
Russia - MiG-31 Foxhound or MiG-29K Fulcrum, Su-34 Platypus, Su-39 Frogfoot (the next assault plane since the Warthog ;)), MiG-35 MAPO-MFI OR Su-47 Berkut OR Su-37 Terminator OR Yak-141 Freestyle VTOL
Sweden - Saab JAS-39 Gripen, Saab J-35 Draken, Saab JA37 Viggen, ... no specials so far (not too sure on their classes either)
...and we could go on and on and on like this.
But, no models? I'm pretty sure there's a depot SOMEWHERE in all those pentabytes around the internet!
No Fredders? I'm pretty sure I could rally up a few people eager to work.
No time? ...okay, so you got me there. :sigh: But an idea / plan / setup would be nice too! Not to mention you'd be a big help being around, I for one am getting skybox trouble out of this current little "demo".
Trashman - Yeah, I'm a Croat too, nice to see I'm not the only one around :D
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You know, I've been involved in very large campaigns already, heck, I think OTT was probably one of the largest around, mod wise, if you consider I made like 95% of the ships. 12 planes is plenty already, plus you'll notice I picked one old multirôle and one new, more centered on air superiority ( but still able to do ground attack ) planes ). Doing more would be unrealistic as a project, exhausting to do, and wuld lead to being bored of the whole thing. I know what I'm talking about there, trust me.
As for the list, yeah, having all that sounds cool, but most choices would be redundant, remember the specifities of each plane would be rather limited because it's FS2, not combat flight simulator there ( note, the Avros would definitively go to UK, not France ;) ). Besides, there's more planes in your list than missions in the campaign :p ( 4 missions per area )
Ok, let's see it that way: I can't be arssed doing all those planes but if you manage to find on the net a good plane database ( my list, if you find more, good for you, why not, and I mean mapped, and in the 1000/2000 polys range, with detailled cockpits, good looking, free of charge - if I can do better, that's a no go - ), you can get converted to pof, I'll look into it, and I'll be willing to consider ( I stress consider, that's a possibility, not a granted ) helping ( skyboxes, landscapes, the fictional stuff, the plot ).
Voila, that's all I can add to the matter.
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Just rip 'em from a flight sim ;)