Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: ##UnknownPlayer## on May 29, 2003, 02:25:49 am
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Yeah, the title makes it sound like I'm insane, but this is actually just a project proposal.
I'd like to propose the near-future (hightlight near - I'm not actually available to work on this right now) creation of a new branch off the main branch dedicated to the re-writing the core rendering engine of FS2 to support the most up-to-date tech's available (actually mainly just HW T&L since this will require a serious engine overhaul).
Essentially the purpose of this branch would be the identification of the current functioning of the Freespace 2 render engine (we still don't have a very good understanding of how it works) and the subsequent removal and implementation of a new render engine (or something that allows us to achieve a similar effect).
I believe we need to do this, since as has been stated many times before, the way the engine is currently we can't implement HW T&L and expect to get any significant performance gains. However, with a re-written rendering pipeline in the engine, we could get excellent performance gains out of it while still keeping the rest of the game independant and functioning. This leads us to the primary advantage of this idea, in that it would allow us to implement many additional cool features to the engine and potentially bring it up to par with modern space sim engines (i.e. we could have full bumpmapping going with specular highlights and FSAA - that would give us almost 3D Render quality visuals).
What do you all say?
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good luck, you'll need it.
honestly,after the bugs are wokred out, this sounds like a good project for the SCP, but it will be a lot of work.
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what do I say? fix the damn clipping first :p
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In light of the way the ability to create mods seems to have outpaced the capabilities of the render engine, I think it might not be a bad idea. From what little I can understand of programming, I have to agree though that this would be a pretty big job. Good luck.
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I didn’t want to make this public until I was finished but I don’t want to waste coder time by have you guys go off and start on the same kind of project I started a while ago. I have only been making code changes for HT&L for a few weeks but I have been thinking about it before I even started upgrading the engine to D3D8 and have done a fair bit of research. But recently I’ve had some time off so I have spent some full days on this.
I have managed a fair bit but I’m no where near finished and I cant afford to spend as much time on it as I have been recently so the progress is slowing.
For a number of reasons I have started this project from a fresh fs2 code base (i.e. not fs2_open):
I don’t have cable internet access any more and want to keep personal time on the net to a minimum
This project has required vast structural changes breaking all the other graphics engines
Previous use of branches in cvs didn’t seem to turn out as good as we hoped
What have I done:
Hardware fog
Most objects are projected on the gfx card
Half way through a total restructure of how the texture system works
Implemented hardware lighting code, doesn’t work properly yet though, positions are messed up
What I still have to do:
Address the main problem the vertex, index and poly structure coming from the pof files
Sort out the rest of the texture restructure
Sort out a few tricky bits like engine glows
Fix clipping plane orientation problem
Optimize
Other stuff I’ve probably forgotten about (I will check my notes when I get home)
I am developing this on a AMD XP 2400 GF4 Ti but also now have a test machine to check how it works on a lower spec, a P3 450 TNT2.
I have done this work in D3D8 but it could as easily be applied to OpenGL. I would prefer not to release source code at this time but first try and make it a bit more complete and tidy some stuff up.
The problem with implementing this has mostly been lack of understanding of how the current FS2 engine works, so UP is totally right, we need to lock down how this all works. I can be of help there with some things, at some point I will try and write a document on what I know and post it here.
The main reason I kept so quiet is that I didn’t know how successful this attempt would be or how long it might take. I don’t like to promise something unless I know I can deliver it. I cant be 100% certain I’ll get this all finished but I know I 100% want to and in either event the results will in one way or another be useful to fs2_open.
I imagine there might be a few questions for me now.
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Fog in FS2 D3D5 works by rendering a low quality nebula coloured background (probably onto a sphere) and taking a copy of it into system memory. Then when its time to render a ship each vertex (which is already projected into 2D) position is found on this background copy. The pixels around this area are averaged to make up a colour at that vertex is blended with the current colour depending on how far away the object is.
Now the vertices have their colours the polys are rendered shading with colours between the point colours. SOmetimes this doenst look very good because the only the point not the edges shading match the background. Looks like there might also be a table fog option in the code but I've never seen it operation.
Notice that low poly objects (like cargo boxes) suffer texture loss in fog on some tri's using this method, a bug I've never been able to lock down, and now dont have to.
In DX8 HT&L you are more likely (like I did) to use pixel / table fog simply because it looks so much better. However using a simple method this just takes a colour and fogs objects to that colour, this means that they wont be made to match the background like in the old system. In my code to sort this out I simply chucked away the background since it didnt look that great anyway. Now the fog is control by a RGB value. To keep backcompatibility I simply manually matched the colour given by the backgrounds with a new hardcored colour thats set depending on the filename passed in. Would be good to add the option to fred to set the RGB value to give FREDers total control.
I wrote this up in 5 mins so sorry if its a bit rough.
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should i post news about this on the scp website,or is it to much an loose idea to do that?
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Oh... GAME engine overhaul... I thought you were wanting to let users reconstruct the engine, so you would be able to put an anti-fusion head on the block, or use a Shivan crankshaft that has dual cams :).
Yes, I am an idiot
BTW, before deciding to do anything major, consider that stability and compatibility are premium.
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Also very important is bug fixing - and I don't mean SCP-induced bugs. I mean those annoying little things that V left in there because they didn't affect their campaign. Like my turret thread, which The Claw seems to have bumped. And the constant collisions. I'd like to see the basic stupidities ironed out of the game more than fancy, Ge-Force-melting lighting effects :nod:
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Also very important is bug fixing - and I don't mean SCP-induced bugs. I mean those annoying little things that V left in there because they didn't affect their campaign. Like my turret thread, which The Claw seems to have bumped. And the constant collisions. I'd like to see the basic stupidities ironed out of the game more than fancy, Ge-Force-melting lighting effects :nod:
You've got a good point but in the end none of us are getting payed for this so we get to do what interests us. I would like some texturers to update the standard game textures but no-ones interested because they want to make something new. Which is fair enough.
I did fix one of V's bugs (fogged HUD when targetting debris in nebula) but thats visual and probably not what you are on about.
I dont have cable access anymore and I've decided it would be too much hassle to be a direct coder provider to this project at the moment.
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rt, can you upload the code somewhere so i can start with opengl
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I think its a bit early for that, still doing major restructuring.
If you are serious about making it work in OGL as well give me an e-mail and we can discuss it further.
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I have to say good work RT - once again you've shot ahead where I was only beginning to consider the possibilities. Yeah, as I was saying at the start of this thread, I intended this to be a near future thing since right now I have a much more pressing issue of finishing my school software development project, but once that's done I'd like to fly back into FS2 development, especially considering I've now got a whole lot of new knowledge on using DX8.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
You've got a good point but in the end none of us are getting payed for this so we get to do what interests us.
Well furry muff.
*pays less attention to the SCP forum* :p:ha:
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Well furry muff.
*pays less attention to the SCP forum* :p:ha:
Im sorry that you are not getting what you want from the SCP at the moment but please keep on trying. Im a graphics programmer, put me near the AI (Im assuming you are on about colliding ships) and I'll probably do more damage than good.
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[color=66ff00]RT why do the textures have to be on existing models?
You need models with similar poly counts as the original but higher texture detail (larger maps) right? Venom and aldo already have messed with putting 1024*1024 single maps on fighters if I remember correctly, why not use one of those as your test subject?
I can't think of why those models would be sidestepped in preference of the :V: ones.
[/color]
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[color=66ff00]Oh and by the way...
Nice work. :)
[/color]
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
You've got a good point but in the end none of us are getting payed for this so we get to do what interests us. I would like some texturers to update the standard game textures but no-ones interested because they want to make something new. Which is fair enough.
you've got it all right there. making new textures for the existing pofs would be a real plus ( imagine 2048*2048 maps for the fighters, etc - that is, for cards that can handle those ). but that's a lot of work, I see myself easily spending a whole weak on one ship for such a task. as you said, we ( modellers/mappers ) aren't paid either for that, so we do what interests us :D
in the light of this, it would be only fair to "trade" ;)
for exemple, it would be great to have some sort of lod0 for the fighters, but that can be done only with a SCP work ( improiving the clipping, so, for exemple, a detailled cockpit -like the one I did on that F22- wouldn't look like a big mess ). think about it ;)
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in my opinion RT you should look for mods supporting scp rather than updating original :v: artwork, since you can get much more interest to scp modifications from a tbp mod (or maybe a SW one:doubt: ) with a "new" story/models etc, than from a game of 4 years ago.
btw, if you really will manage to build a new rendering engine with more actual standards, better, faster, w/o those clippings(i drop a line too for trading about them;)), well... i think you will be worshipped by the community for, oh well, the eternity:)...surely by me, at least:)
so good luck and good work for what you have already done:)
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you know there are some advantages to useing TBP, R1 loads like fifteen times as fast as the origonal ;7
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Wow...definately all sounds exciting. I know this isn't going to be anywhere close to an overnight affair but it does sound like a fantastic project. I'd just thought I'd throw in a kind word and a show of support!
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Maeglamor: Not looking for a test subject, want a whole update pack. Just cos no-ones going to do it doesnt stop me from wanting it. :)
Venom: Trading, interesting idea, I may think about that in the future when I get cable access back.
I would just like to stress that this project I am working from is based on the original FS2 source. This is not a fs2_open exe and therefore does not have any of the good work done to help out MOD'ers. Why? See explanation above, but any work I do here puts fs2_open closer to having HT&L itself.
Finally dont get excited yet, there may be months or work to go but thanks for the support everyone.
EDIT: Remember HT&L on its own won't actually make anything look much different anyway.
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Will HT&L on its own make it faster? If so, that's all I need to consider it worthy of praise.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
I would just like to stress that this project I am working from is based on the original FS2 source.
I think you've made a very good decision there. I'm very excited about the work you're doing. This is the most promising news to come from the FS2 community in some time. I'd like to thank you and wish you the best of luck. I too would be interested in knowing what kind of speed increases you're seeing if any.
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Originally posted by IPAndrews
I think you've made a very good decision there. I'm very excited about the work you're doing. This is the most promising news to come from the FS2 community in some time. I'd like to thank you and wish you the best of luck. I too would be interested in knowing what kind of speed increases you're seeing if any.
Wont expect to see any difference until the object rendering is sorted out....
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Space sims are very well suited to HT&L, a load of static shapes that are translated and rotated with a few nice effects thrown in. However freespace is not structured to take advantage of this.
The object vertex lists are put together at the last moment and are rendered in groups of 3 or 4 triangle fans. In the pof file points come with a number of normals since each point is used in multiple polys and requires a different normal depending on which poly it is in.
This is terrible for HT&L, what I will probably do is convert the polys into triangle lists which will take up more space but not to the point were even a low spec gfx card should have too much trouble. The advantage of this way of doing it means we can setup the vertices once, in a big list at load time and send them off to the gfx card and never need to directly change them again. Since most ships only have one texture most lists can be rendered all at once instead in batches of 3 or 4, with the exception of ships with rotating subcomponents. This is where I hope to get a significant speed gain.
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Currently freespace has its own lighting code in which it lights vertex by vertex carrying out all these complicated equations in our CPU which our GPU’s are designed for. In HT&L from our point of view lighting will work object by object. Fortunately V have programmed it well enough for us to make use of the higher level lighting code. 3D scenes can only have so many lights (8) so before each object is rendered the closest and most significant lights are determined and 8 (or less) of these are used to light an individual object. Theres a slight complication with this because beams emit light but theres no such thing as a line light so the closest point between the line and object / vertex is found and that is used.
When full HT&L lighting is in there will be a lot of interesting material and lighting options but without a editor to set them with they will have to just be set to a reasonable default for the time being.
When getting all this done I may bump up the effect of lighting, when I put in the special pause feature I accidentally didn’t reset the lights which meant lights where applied multiple times and in my opinion and others it actually looked a fair bit better with the extra contact between objects in and out of direct light.
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Quick note to cause a bit of outrage, I have removed texture sectioning from the code. I could put it back I guess but I dont plan to anytime soon.
This means your cards max texture size must be as wide as your resolution. ie your max texture size must be at least 1024.
So generally anything as good as a TNT is OK. But Voodoo owners will not be happy.
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oh btw, when it comes time to create the new pof format with triangle strips i'll help design the format, and make it so POF Constructor Suite can handle it (it'll be Forking POF CS)
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
Quick note to cause a bit of outrage, I have removed texture sectioning from the code. I could put it back I guess but I dont plan to anytime soon.
This means your cards max texture size must be as wide as your resolution. ie your max texture size must be at least 1024.
So generally anything as good as a TNT is OK. But Voodoo owners will not be happy.
ehm...:( :wtf:
btw, why?
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They got in my way
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Correct me if im wrong, but isn't this the same process that helps with background bitmaps and making them look less like the circular skybox they are painted on? (for instance, divide by 4 for most planets so that they look circular rather than oval?)
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Originally posted by IceFire
Correct me if im wrong, but isn't this the same process that helps with background bitmaps and making them look less like the circular skybox they are painted on? (for instance, divide by 4 for most planets so that they look circular rather than oval?)
Im not sure what you've talking about. As far as I know texture sections are simply used to display textures bigger than 256. I've taken them out because Im restructuring the texture module and they were making life difficult.
At the end of the day they could always be put back in and remember fs2_open is always here and back compatiable and I suspect if it ever goes HT&L Inquisitor will insist voodoo owners (if there are any left) are thought of.
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mm but it means that it won't work at all with voodoos or just slow?
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This is the most significant and important project going on IMHO, because this is what will be able to give FS a very new look and return it to the mainstream gaming community - and even turn some heads at a certain corporation. Managgers go for looks and survey statistics...
If you plan on reforming the pof format I think supporting a genrally higher poly-count would be a bless.
With that models could be vastly impoved - even if based on textures, with extrude and such we could actually create a whole bunch of details in the crafts. - a whole range of detail levels would be introduced I guess.
Is this sub-project (pof reformation) has any effect on ships with moving parts, it would be another bless if ships with more moving parts (like thrusters) would be supported...this is only a wish just like the rest.
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Originally posted by KARMA
mm but it means that it won't work at all with voodoos or just slow?
Just wont work, if there's enough demand I guess I might put it back.
I know not everyone is loaded but:
TNT2 £20
ATI Radeon 7000 £30
nVidia GeForce 4 MX440 £40
Half life 2, Deus Ex 2 and Doom 3 are coming out, who-ever you are whatever you have its obviously time for an upgrade.
I have no plans to reform the pof format at the moment.
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so, it would be about choosing between better graphics ( your project ) and new options ( SCP ) ?
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Originally posted by Venom
so, it would be about choosing between better graphics ( your project ) and new options ( SCP ) ?
If I'm understanding him right, Venom, RT wants to get the graphics core updated, clean and stable THEN he wants to bring the SCP mods/options up to date on the new system.
Think of it like a campaign loop thing. ;)
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Inquisitor, RT, Goober, Bobboua, Phreak
maybe the best thing to do is just add each and every new feature in to the build one at a time. and test in between each new feature or improvement. for that pesky CTD bug. We beta testers stand ready to test for the crashes. I suppose this wouldn't be very hard considering we have written working code and fixed multiple bugs already. All this of course after you get the engine overhauled. AND PLEASE NO ONE MENTION GEO MOD OR WE WILL ALL BEAM YOU.
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That reminds me... Hey, RT can you do me a favor?
Can you PUTS IN TEH GEOMAD!!!!11!!11? LOLOLOLOL.
See, redmenace, if you didn't keep bringing it up... ;)
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thats it someone shoot him.
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Originally posted by redmenace
thats it someone shoot him.
hmm? no, I like the occasional arguments I have wth him, so spare him :D
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well i'm not going to buy a cheap gpu for a pc that will remain anyway good just to warm the room during winter, and i don't have the money to change it soon.
Those are obviously my problems, not yours, and i don't think you should complicate your life just because one person, but it will be hard for me to make models w/o being able to test em (not to mention to play with what i make :p ). Well maybe i'll be able to find a solution for the time the new engine will be implemented
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Originally posted by Venom
hmm? no, I like the occasional arguments I have wth him, so spare him :D
Um... thanks, I think. :D
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What about supporting Bezier curves? That would look ****-hot for the fighters & vasudan ships, inparticular. Not sure how you'd integrate it with the existing code, though....it wasn't written to use any OO tricks, was it?
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Originally posted by KARMA
well i'm not going to buy a cheap gpu for a pc that will remain anyway good just to warm the room during winter, and i don't have the money to change it soon.
Those are obviously my problems, not yours, and i don't think you should complicate your life just because one person, but it will be hard for me to make models w/o being able to test em (not to mention to play with what i make :p ). Well maybe i'll be able to find a solution for the time the new engine will be implemented
Look, I understand your concerns and I dont want to shut anyone out of this that I dont have to. But Im no were near finished so lets worry about that when we come to it.
EVERYONE ELSE, stop going crazy, Im not going to implement a Geo mod or true curves. Please take this to another discussion.
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well sorry for being senile, but I wanna repeat: FS2 clipping is an insult to the game and fixing it should come first.
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venom: any tnl upgrade should fix the clipping probs
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By clipping do you mean this sort of thing (http://fs2source.warpcore.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=85)?
While we are on the topic of graphic enhancements, how difficult would it be to implement "detail mapping?" This is the effect where if you get very close to a textured polygon, instead of the texture becoming blurry, a new stencil-like overlay bump-map gradually gets displayed and makes very fine details appear. This system is used in the Unreal and Unreal Warfare games for example.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
Im not sure what you've talking about. As far as I know texture sections are simply used to display textures bigger than 256. I've taken them out because Im restructuring the texture module and they were making life difficult.
At the end of the day they could always be put back in and remember fs2_open is always here and back compatiable and I suspect if it ever goes HT&L Inquisitor will insist voodoo owners (if there are any left) are thought of.
Ok...maybe it has no relevance at all. I just thought I'd throw it out there and see if it was something overlooked or not.
Just to be certain...what I was talking about is the FRED2 feature where you can take a background bitmap and divide it into 2 or 4 for instance (I think the limit is 4). The purpose of this is to reduce the tearing on the background bitmaps as you spin your ship around. In particular, it makes a large planet on the background look alot more circular and alot less oval/wonky like (see for yourself :D).
I have no idea if these two things are linked or totally separate entities but unless the skybox system gets reworked and there is no need for dividing the bitmaps...having that would still be a useful feature.
Again...may be a total non-issue in which case, ignore all that I have said and I'll go and sit in my corner :D
Everyone should be able to afford a cheap GPU nowadays. For $20 you can buy the card im using or better (GF2 GTS) which would do the trick and more (and I spent $450 Cdn on it in the first place, bah!).
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Originally posted by IceFire
Ok...maybe it has no relevance at all. I just thought I'd throw it out there and see if it was something overlooked or not.
I still dont know what you are talking about but if its linked to texture sections it may well be broken. Could you give me any info you have on it and which missions (if any) in the FS2 files use it. Or supply me with an example mission.
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Originally posted by CP5670
By clipping do you mean this sort of thing (http://fs2source.warpcore.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=85)?
I mean that:
(http://www.swooh.com/premium/venom/variouspics/afp01.jpg)
look at the thruster flames, that's a good exemple. the polys are not even intersecting or anything, but still you can see the thruster flames throught the hull structure.
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A classic example what will happen if you use a 16-bit Z-buffer without any kind of range adjustments.
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Originally posted by Venom
I mean that:
or maybe those (no interceptions present):
(http://members.fortunecity.com/aranbanjo/Image1_2.jpg)
(http://members.fortunecity.com/aranbanjo/Image2_2.jpg)
(http://members.fortunecity.com/aranbanjo/Image3_2.jpg)
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yup, same deal.
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In-laws in town, brother graduating from Harvard Law tomorrow, this is what I get for having a real life :)
This owuld be something we could do after the bug squashing and after the mucking about we have to do with multi, but we have been talking about T&L for a while (see the stickied summary thread).
I think it would be great to have a completely updated graphic engine, openGL and DX8 have been a fun ride, but i think worth it.
There will be a concious effort with this, though, to up the system requirements, so we will begin to rapidly loose the older cards.
I would think that so long as we have a stable release of the current system, that that release and any new release would continue to be mod compatible and interoperable in multiplayer (not sure how realistic that is, but, hey, we can try, right) that we could just STOP progress on the current 3.x series after say, 3.6 or so, and dev folks could move on to new and interesting if they wanted?
Just thinking about this out loud, ignore my ravings :)
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just to add:
once we get multiplayer set in 3.6 we may look at doing these things for 3.7 and up (my opinion)
update graphics engine
upgrade ai
optimize netcode (possibly 3.8)
new physics stuff (possibly 3.8 or 3.9)
the second last one i will be of no use on until i can find a good networking tutorial
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How is the bug hunting going? Are we any closer to nailing the model read and crash to the desktop problem we are getting? Hey after the T&L stuff maybe we can get our turrets to have other default positions other that straight up or straight down. ;)
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Still to do:
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HT&L
-Transformation
--Sort out viewing matrix
--Change object readin and render system
--Fix clipping planes
-Lighting
--Fix locations
--Set sun as directional
--Fix beam illumination
-Textures
--Cache in animations
--Add support for 32 bit TGA's
-Misc
--Stop projecting explosions and engine / beam glows
--Fix engine glow order problem
Search for and fix general bugs
Search for and fix card and system specific bugs
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This will likely will take months. Currently Im a bit stuck on understanding the exact working of View_matrix. Any useful help from a coder who knows what they are talking about would be welcome.
I know what *a* view matrix is, what I need to know is how *the freespace* view matrix works.
Currently I use the View_matrix as a world tranformation and the actual D3D view matrix is the identity matrix (or 0). It doesnt work the other way around.
Also the view matrix is a 3x3 transpose of the 4x4 matrix required, its used for many different things, even in the sound code. I need to fully understand how it works before I can sort it out safely and I need to sort it out before I can get anything really useful done on the HT&L scheme.
Any thoughts #UP#, Phreak?
Dont suppose Daveb is out there?
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well one option is to contact volition([email protected] ) this way and have them forward this to daveb, second you could call them directly. third you could send him an e-mail through the forums. forth a admin could e-mail him directly for you.
[email protected]
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
I still dont know what you are talking about but if its linked to texture sections it may well be broken. Could you give me any info you have on it and which missions (if any) in the FS2 files use it. Or supply me with an example mission.
Virtually all of the FS2 missions from Volition use it...I use it relatively frequently and I'm sure others who know what it does use it as well.
Here's the details.
In FRED2, if you go to Editors > Background Editor and add one of the planets from the list.
Now, at 1x1 (without stretching) its pretty good looking. Looks like a planet. Now, if you take that and blow it up by 4 or 6 times (a very common useage for nebulas and a little less common for planets) you'll notice in the editor that it gets a little warped and in game it just doesn't look like a sphere anymore...it looks oval. While planets are indeed oval because of spin in real life, they are never going to be that oval :D
The divider is just below the Scale. It says # of divisions (x/y). From what I was told, this takes the PCX file and divides it by the number you specify in those two areas. Default is 1, Max is 4. For planets I usually set it at 4 to keep it looking mostly round.
Its definately not a perfect system...but it works very nicely anwyays and its probably something that shouldn't be broken.
Again, I have no idea if what you disabled has anything to do with this piece of code but seeing as its used very frequently in FS2 retail missions (and probably for good reason) its probably not something that should be broken if it is at all.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
...I know what *a* view matrix is, what I need to know is how *the freespace* view matrix works.
Umm...I really don't think there's anything special about it. Just normal 3x3 row matrix. Should there be something special in it?
Currently I use the View_matrix as a world tranformation and the actual D3D view matrix is the identity matrix (or 0). It doesnt work the other way around.
Are you sure you're building your matrix right? Or are you even constructing a 4x4 matrix? Since I'm more into OpenGL I actually don't even know can you send ahead a 3x3 matrix and a vector combo instead of a 4x4.
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it's the right, up, and forward vectors, in that order, I don't think it relates to the matrix used in DX
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Originally posted by Bobboau
it's the right, up, and forward vectors, in that order, I don't think it relates to the matrix used in DX
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I hope your right, will check tonight.
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Originally posted by IceFire
Virtually all of the FS2 missions from Volition use it...I use it relatively frequently and I'm sure others who know what it does use it as well.
Tell you what, whats your gfx card type? Why dont I give you an exe and you can test it for yourself? Send me an e-mail.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
Tell you what, whats your gfx card type? Why dont I give you an exe and you can test it for yourself? Send me an e-mail.
E-mail sent.