Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Unknown Target on June 01, 2003, 07:04:48 pm
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Alright, after reading thru the whole "Is FS2 dying?" thread, and posting my opinions, I've realized that the general concensus is that we need a dedicated group of people to work on improving FS2 in one giant MOD package. This is the thread for that.
Now, I've drawn up a list, but please, feel free to add to it. But not too much.
FS2 is currently at version 1.2. This project is to bring that up to 2.0.
Now, here's what we need (and remember, this is an actual PROJECT, not just putting ideas out, I am planning to help as much as possible with this):
1) Faster-paced gameplay. (Gameplay)
2) Better AI. (Gameplay)
3) A new graphics engine. (Graphics)
4) Different physics. (Gameplay)
5) An expanded universe and storyline. (Gameplay)
6) Muilti-targeting. (Gameplay/ Graphics)
7) Ship animations and animated textures (Graphics).
8) Miscleanious sound improvements. (Audio)
9) Bug squashing. (Bugs/ Testing)
10) Website for the project (Web)
11) Updating HLP's website (Web)
12) IRC Management (Web)
13) Organizer: Me, 2 others (Misc)
14) New utilites to work with the new features (Utilities)
That's all I have for Release 1.
Here's the groups:
Gameplay: Me, _____________
Graphics: ____________
Audio: ________
Bugs squashing: __________
Testing: ___________
Web: Me (to a small extent), _______
Misc: ___________
Utilities: ________
Please volounteer, people, remember, this is the life of FS2 we are talking about here! Don't kid yourself, FS2 will not last another year without an overhaul!
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In the hope that this will get off the ground this time, I can serve some time as an idea-box (gameplay aspects), tester and possibly a website person.
I suggest there be a proper communication network for this, most similar projects died of lack of communication (which makes people forget and lose interest) in the form of news and planning.
Also I suggest a "organizer" slot.
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I have added an IRC slot, so we can elect one or 2 people to manage an IRC chat room, so everyone can get together and talk about it.
Also, I have added a organizer slot, per your request ( a good idea). I need two other people for it (prefferably admins of something)
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I have some IRC operating experience (not like it's a hard thing but :p) and can watch over the channel almost 24/7 (mainly via logs).
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Although I have other projects I need to dedicate my time to, I supposed I could throw some help in the graphics direction. I can do/have done ship animations for my mod as well as others. They are not actually [V] quality but they are very close. I've made a tutorial (http://denebsystem.250free.com/tutorial_01.html) on this sort of thing on my website. Perhaps it will be a better help to teach more people how to do this also.
Some of the things listed above require code edits. Not alot of people here know how to code and some (including me) have limited knowledge of C++. Other than the coders already here (who are very busy trying to fix up currently existing features from what I understand) I don't see code changes happening unless you want to take that up. ;)
Other can-do's:
-web
-utility coder in Visual Basic (namely Table Edit (my first), FS2 game maker, and the atmosphere generator)
Edit: Since you mentioned IRC management, I happen to have a big experience under that field as well. :D
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New list:
Gameplay: Me, Kamikaze
Graphics: ____________
Audio: ________
Bugs squashing: __________
Testing: ___________
Web: Me (to a small extent), Kamikaze, Joey_21
Misc: ___________
Utilities: Joey_21,
_______________________
Joey, I'm not going to put you down for graphics, because I'm talking about hardcoded ship animations, and you didn't say you could do that (if you did, srry, I didn't catch it).
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Joey, I'm not going to put you down for graphics, because I'm talking about hardcoded ship animations, and you didn't say you could do that (if you did, srry, I didn't catch it).
Ahh, that would be definately nice. Unfortunately, I couldn't code that, but it would be a big improvement.
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Just curious what does 'misc' have under its belt, in terms of what u have to do...
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not to be negative, but isn't what you're describing basically SCP minus expansion of the universe (which is the job of the campaigns anyway) ?
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In my opinion, thats what the SCP is doing this very moment. it just doesnt happen as fast as alot of us would like it to go, but there doing just that. I know DAVEB just at home watching us handle our buisness and knows we;ve got something good, and when its finally acomplished, we're going to reach a level that many old games never will make.
honestly, its like the Freespace - Freelancer debate. if Freespace was in Freelancer, but Freelancer played like Freespace, ALOT OF PEOPLE WOULD BE HAPPIER THEN ANYTHING. But, that would be in a perfect world. the most we can get is the Freelancer mods, even then there limited.
Now, if someone got the bright IDEA to attempt a massive Freelancer-Freespace converstion, make EVERY freespace system planet ship species etc, then that would be an achievement for a game and a universe that has spanned 5+ years, and is so rich in story that the current FS2 engine can only hint at. and mind u, V did a good job at it.
so i dunno if anything we just need to be patient.
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what SCP is doing is the backbone to the game, but lots of engine abilities without something to use them and integrate them to their fullest is pointless. Currently we do have many campaigns working to rememdy this (TBP, Star Wars TC for example) but a truly large full-community effort is still nonpresent.
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Originally posted by Kamikaze
what SCP is doing is the backbone to the game, but lots of engine abilities without something to use them and integrate them to their fullest is pointless. Currently we do have many campaigns working to rememdy this (TBP, Star Wars TC for example) but a truly large full-community effort is still nonpresent.
i agree, although ima sound like a hipocrit to some (LM coworkers, i saddly havent dont much in a long time cause of RLife issues...), but i do agree. if we want something done then do something to contribute. if not, then be patient. when 3.5 came out i was beyond thrilled. i waited maybe like 2 months to just test the darn thing, and although with its bugs, i waited, and enjoyed my not so finished product that was done for us.
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Personally, I have issues with the idea of the main community project being something that ties into a completely unrelated set of fiction...
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Wait, I'm confused. Is this going in conjunction with the SCP, or are you trying to pull work away from there? And do you already have a plot and **** in mind and aren't telling us, or what?
If all the code work is consolidated in the SCP project, and anyone working for this project is at the same time working for that, then I'll help out. I can do storyline ****, just ask anyone who's seen, say, the False Dawn background (though I'll probably have something, ah, simpler for this one :D ). If what you're planning is going to in any way hinder or take work away from the SCP, go to hell. But I'd very much like to see something new happen.
Provided it actually does happen, and isn't just a lot of bull**** like most campaigns.:doubt:
By the way, FS2 was Freespace 2.0. Or 2.1, actually, I think, postpatch. This would be Freespace 3.0.;)
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DG's two euros --> Any coders thinking of volunteering fot this should got pitch in with the SCP project. The more coders the yhave, the faster the versions are churned out and the faster new features are added :nod:
It must be said that this looks suspiciously like a 'FS3 from FRED2' propostition...
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I can make TESTING and (WEBSITE ;7)
If i need a forum about it ask me. :D
Look at the DOTA website from my siggy i have make it.
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*smacks forehead with palm* :shaking:
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It's Freespace Forever all over again.:rolleyes:
as was said in the other thread, what si the point in starting a completely new project, that will only take forever to complete? More people should get behind an existing project, preferably one that is FS based, like the TVWP.
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or like OTT? or like Inferno? or like...
you get my point?
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But most of the campaigns set after FS2 will conflict, whereas the TVWP, being set before FS1, has little competition.
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Also, it has the lucky coincidence of being one you're working on.;)
Everyone has their baby, man. In all honesty, personally at least I don't think any of the major campaign plots are good enough for a community project. They're all so damned... contrived.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Also, it has the lucky coincidence of being one you're working on.;)
Quite. I also happen to think that it is the most promising, and needs the most help. We are chronicling a hell of a long time, after all.
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Actually OTT needs more help, since there's practically no staff left for it.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Also, it has the lucky coincidence of being one you're working on.;)
Everyone has their baby, man. In all honesty, personally at least I don't think any of the major campaign plots are good enough for a community project. They're all so damned... contrived.
heh, what do you know about the OTT plot, apart from the basic synopsys? any idea of what happens in it or anything? :p
that aside, it's MY vision of what could happen after capella and I have no plan, nor even desire, to have other peoples share it.
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Venom: What do you know about False Dawn Rising? After all, it's got its own very complex geopolitical bible that goes to it and operates using actual working physics theories, never mind much nastier vessels and weapons than your measly multi-gigaton torpedos- never mind (semi)pro-grade anis anis and models that were originally built for rendering and make full use of the SCP upgrades. That doesn't mean I'm advocating making it obligatory for everyone here to work on it so that I can see it to completion before I retire and move on to RL- I'd very much like to play it, but I recognize that other people wanna see other things. So long as it's one of a dozen campaigns that's optional to work on, that's fine, but soon as we're essentially requiring people to work on it and put up with it, the little differences of opinion start to matter. I'm probably the only one inclined to throw a monkey wrench in the works if the concept starts going horribly wrong, but I'm far from the only one likely to just pack up and leave.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Venom: What do you know about False Dawn Rising? After all, it's got its own very complex geopolitical bible that goes to it and operates using actual working physics theories, never mind much nastier vessels and weapons than your measly multi-gigaton torpedos- never mind (semi)pro-grade anis anis and models that were originally built for rendering and make full use of the SCP upgrades.
well, I don't know anything about it, which puts both campaigns even since you've never seen anything more than ship screenshots and a loosy forum title from OTT, don't you think?
( just to say that I was replying to "I don't think any of the major campaign plots are good enough for a community project. They're all so damned... contrived." )
As I said I don't want OTT to be a community project or anything, hell no ( even if what I want now has no relevance since I gave ott to Woomeister with the clearence of doing whatever he wants with it ). What OTT needed was enough freders to make a ridiculous number of missions ( 10 ). I couldn't even gather that much, I'm not looking for any more help at all, and, as a matter of fact, I've simply given up on it.
And I wouldn't want OTT to become a community project for a reason I stated a few monthes before already: it was my "baby" and I wouldn't want it to become some sort of melting pot of skills and styles. That's why I gave it to Woomeister for I trust him.
just wanted to make things clear.
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Ten missions? Hell, I'll do a coupla those.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Ten missions? Hell, I'll do a coupla those.
well if you want, see about this with woo.
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Could we PLEASE keep this thread clear of requests for campaign help?
Anyways, the SCP is doing a GREAT job, except for one thing: the people that are doing it aren't getting paid, so they are doing what they want to do. Which is fine, but it's not getting us very far.
This is so that any coders who are willing can give up some of their own time to do something that will benefit the whole community.
As a side note, when I said "Expanding the Universe", I didn't mean a campaign, I meant fiction + backstory.
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
DG's two euros --> Any coders thinking of volunteering fot this should got pitch in with the SCP project. The more coders the yhave, the faster the versions are churned out and the faster new features are added :nod:
It must be said that this looks suspiciously like a 'FS3 from FRED2' propostition...
*hands DG a ferry ticket to Europe where he use all the filthy euros he wants*
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Originally posted by Zeronet
*hands DG a ferry ticket to Europe where he use all the filthy euros he wants*
Meh, at least its worth more then a US dollar :p Though the pound still is quite amazing when it comes to worth :p
Btw, how did you guys ever made up the word "quid" for a pound?
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I would advise that textures are made hi-res 32bit colour.
The SCP will allow this eventally (if it doesnt already), I should know, I've got the code to do it.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Anyways, the SCP is doing a GREAT job, except for one thing: the people that are doing it aren't getting paid, so they are doing what they want to do. Which is fine, but it's not getting us very far.
Agreed totally... but I think in some circumstance they could add it to their portfolio once a major release with BIG! and I mean BIG!!! modifications have been done.
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[color=66ff00]We need to do this in steps, artwork, storyline, models, missions. If we can stick to that we might have something, unless you guys want to stick ridgidly to :V:'s stuff then I think some concept art needs to be done for models.
We can have an art competition basically, draw up some designs for ships using certain criteria (size, function, race). When we get designs everyone likes (vote) we can then build some meshes and get them textured. A few ships for each race (4 or so?) should be a good starting point.
Once we get the meshes done we can UVmap them and put out the templates for you guys to have a go at 'colouring in'. ;)
A little work from everyone is a lot more realistic than expecting a miracle from a handful of people.
I think this is a good place to start, an art competition isn't too time consuming and everyone can get involved, drawings, paintings or even meshes. Are you guys up for this?
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I certainly am! :D:yes:
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well, this has to be in, then:
http://www.geocities.com/alpha_quadrant_project/conceptpics/GTB_UrsaMarkII.jpg
( pic by scorpius )
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:eek2:
*is suddenly too humbled to enter the contest*
:p
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Originally posted by Tiara
:eek2:
*is suddenly too humbled to enter the contest*
:p
[color=66ff00]Don't make me kick your axe wielding butt, get drawing lady! :D
I don't care if you think you can't draw, draw anyway, even if it's a simple sketch it might inspire someone.
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Sheez, you really think I'd give up that quickly? I thought you knew me better then that :p I'm scanning my first simple concept sketch as we speak (simple with a capital S :p)
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Ok, so, we're going to design the new game engine around the models? That's a good idea.
I've got some drawings done. And remember people, since we're going to be getting a new engine, don't limit yourself too much to the FS standards. Give it some animations, opening hatches, etc. Let yourself go wild :D ;)
Also, please keep this thread clear of spam. Tiara, that means you ;)
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I can make testing and website and a painting new effects.
But website can i do best.
Is the exe based on fs_open or normal fs2 ?
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If the SCP guys wouldn't mind, I think it would be faster to use FS2_Open, except with new graphics.
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So shall i help you with website, testing and painting effects ?
And i think i can give you an forum.
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Animation, any kind, I'm game. You know I can do it well, specialazation in diagrams and cutscenes.
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Originally posted by Free Terran
So shall i help you with website, testing and painting effects ?
And i think i can give you an forum.
[color=66ff00]I don't think it should work this way, I think we should get in many submissions and have the community vote for what they think is the best. That way all of the top work is included in the project.
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Oh i mean not here a forum i mean it on an other board where i'm a admin.
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I am still sort of confused as to what this is supposed to be. We already have the SCP doing many of those things and the user-made campaigns filling up the rest; I don't want to sound pessimistic but this sounds suspiciously like another Freespace Forever. However, if this does actually manage to get going somewhere I will certainly help in any way I can; my specialties are mission and story stuff.
As for the concept art, this is some old thing I found in my desk drawer a few days ago, although it's nothing really special:
http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/procyon/misc/image2.gif
(just ignore the other crap on that paper; this was doodled in a break interval during an exam :nervous: )
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No no no, you're going about this completely wrong. What we'll end up with is basically two source-code projects, the SCP one and UT's one, with the difference that UT's one has a team of modelers on the books.
UT, you say that the SCP guys aren't doing what the community wants but what they want (which is fair enough), and you ask for any coders not working on the SCP to join your project. Well why not have them join the SCP? Then they could work alongside the experienced FS2 hackers and work on stuff like AI while the current SCP guys overhaul the graphics
And the modelers thing. The SCP is crying out for people to make stuff to test their new features. They have threads begging for help in that respect.
My point is, UT, what you propose could well kill the SCP, leaving RandomTiger and co to build a beautiful graphics engine that may never be seen by the community. Meanwhile, you have a game with 'community-demanded' features. Why not work together? Why not appeal for people to join the SCP specifially to cater for community demands, and to show off new features with snazzy models and missions?
Rant over.
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[color=66ff00]This is why I think that a model pack would be a good start, it gives us media without stepping on anyones toes and we can sit back for a bit and see what the SCP guys think of it all.
Like I said before, start small, get people interested and then it should speed up of it's own accord.
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DOn't get me wrong but why don't we work together with the SCP guys? They provide the engine modifications and we (the community) use that to do this project.
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I made an error: I was sort of assuming that this project would take the SCP coders + stuff as a sort of Sub-Project. The major one (for the sake of continuity, I'm going to call it Freespace 2.5), would have a major overhaul: the graphics. The coders could add in what they thought would be valid, and then everything would be put together as one release. We could do the engine first and then all the bells and whistles, or we could do them first, then integrate them into a new engine (many of which are available online, BTW).
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But the SCP is already doing an overhauled graphics engine. Why, exactly, do you want to being a seperate project to do the same thing?
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Here's an intersting engine, most of you have already heard of it most likely:
http://crystal.sourceforge.net/drupal/
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I sincerely hope we are not changing engines completely. It will result in campaigns to lose the "FS feel" to it. At least for me. It'll also probably disallow easy mission-making as we are used with Fred.
I think the SCP would be our best choice.
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The SCP is not making a new engine. They are upgrading the old one, and piece by piece, not as one whole entity. Look at the Is FS2 Dying? thread, and you'll see most ppl there agree that FS needs a new engine overhall, which, with the way the SCP is going, is not going to happen any time soon.
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Why even bother calling it a FS game if it doesn't even use the same engine....
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Ahem. (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,15407.0.html) :yes:
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No. The SCP is the locus of damn near all the talent, all the programming time, and all the experience here. If you just toss that out, or try to drag people away from the one really ****in' huge project that everyone wants to see, that's actually getting finished all the time, that really matters entirely, your project will crash and burn, and it serves you right. If you want something different from what they're doing there, fine, put in a request, but if you're just babbling about some deluded sky-fairy notion about magical new engines for the game being mysteriously cranked out of nowhere by unpaid, amateur programmers on a scale of weeks or months, no offense, but you don't have the grasp of reality that it takes to be a campaign leader. It's not gonna happen, esse- engine modifications are perfectly fine, and they're all you're gonna get.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
It's Freespace Forever all over again.:rolleyes:
No, no, no, no. It's [glow=blue]LiberCapacitas duo quiasemper[/glow]
:p
One of the main problems I see with this is (and SCP too :nervous: ). Is that when you add a new feature, mod groups will then have to do allot of stuff you catch up or update models/images to get those cool effects. Also if someone splits from the SCP they have to tell ppl that in a really good readme. You also get noob's complaining about how 'such-and-such' mod doesn't work. Now that isn't too much of a problem with the SCP because just about anything they've added they've made sure it was backwards compatible.
well thats my 2 million cents.
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Anyway. Sketched (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/battlecruiser.jpg) concept (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/hawk.jpg) art (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/hood.jpg) is (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/harvester.jpg) for (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/kirov.jpg) pussies (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/pirsta.jpg).:D
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what was the name of Plasma's super campaign?
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Fine, fine, I give up. I wanted to start it, but, it seems there's too much negative attitudes about it. I will help, though, if someone who thinks they can stomach the negativity wants to take the lead.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9
Anyway. Sketched (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/battlecruiser.jpg) concept (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/hawk.jpg) art (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/hood.jpg) is (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/harvester.jpg) for (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/kirov.jpg) pussies (http://www.wpierce.com/wlp/FS2/pirsta.jpg).:D
bleh (http://www.swooh.com/premium/venom/renders/sabreviews.jpg)! :D
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Fine, fine, I give up. Personally, though, I'm not going to be holding my breath for any future campaigns.
Because you're trying to be too ambitious and not take enough from what's already existing.
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Originally posted by Shrike
Because you're trying to be too ambitious and not take enough from what's already existing.
That's because I like to start big. If I'm going to devote a large portion of my time to doing something, it might as well be worthwhile, not some small little thing that I don't really want to do.
EDIT: Sorry if this annoys anyone to the extent that they want to put a bullet in their monitor.
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Originally posted by Shrike
Because you're trying to be too ambitious and not take enough from what's already existing.
[color=66ff00]Damn straight, you're not being realistic about goals here UT. I'm asking everyone to start small, the concept art is a good way to do this. You want an entirely new engine, graphics and models, yesterday. Try to keep things in perspective.
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I think the big complaint here is that you aren't taking advantage of the SCP. It already has a web site, a bug tracker, CVS, a tester list, and coders. As near as I can tell, you're saying you want to form another SCP, but combine it with a campaign.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
I made an error: I was sort of assuming that this project would take the SCP coders + stuff as a sort of Sub-Project. The major one (for the sake of continuity, I'm going to call it Freespace 2.5), would have a major overhaul: the graphics. The coders could add in what they thought would be valid, and then everything would be put together as one release. We could do the engine first and then all the bells and whistles, or we could do them first, then integrate them into a new engine (many of which are available online, BTW).
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I'm also saying that, rather than just another campaign with the SCP enhancements, it would be a standard installation.
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Personally, I think people are whining too much. Instead of posting about FS2 is supposedly dying, and making doom and gloom predictions that nothing is ever going to be completed, why don't you use that time to help something that is already underway? :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Personally, I think people are whining too much. Instead of posting about FS2 is supposedly dying, and making doom and gloom predictions that nothing is ever going to be completed, why don't you use that time to help something that is already underway? :rolleyes:
Hear bloody hear.
People can talk all they want, but things need to be DONE.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Personally, I think people are whining too much. Instead of posting about FS2 is supposedly dying, and making doom and gloom predictions that nothing is ever going to be completed, why don't you use that time to help something that is already underway? :rolleyes:
[color=66ff00]I already am, you just don't know about it. ;)
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
That's because I like to start big. If I'm going to devote a large portion of my time to doing something, it might as well be worthwhile, not some small little thing that I don't really want to do.
Just because you want a big project doesn't mean you have to make everything big. What is the inherent problem with using the FS2 + SCP engine? It'd make much more sense to focus on what can be accomplished then on blue-sky dreaming. If you're going to make an entirely new engine you might as well just market it and make money.
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argh I was assuming this would be a join-SCP project... anyway it's probably alread been said (I'm not going to read it all), but UT you should integrate this with SCP's current work. The engine rehaul will work nicely with this and dumping all the progress SCPs had is wasteful, frustrating and inefficient for everyone.
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Blagh, I'm tired.
*goes back to working on the Robotech MOD*
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Ses: Who says I'm not? The problem is, one of the campaigns I'm working on has pretty much officially proclaimed it's dying, and the other ones all slowed down quite a lot, too. I'm getting sick of doing all these minutes of ani work that are never going to see the light, and I want to fucking do something about it. You don't want to, have fun intellectually masturbating over a project that will never be more than half-finished.
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About a new engine: it's a no-go - at least not here on HLP. Why do you think HLP isn't hosting the Homeworld MOD, where FS ships are put into the Homeworld engine? Because that's beyond our allotted territory here at GameSpy. Planet Homeworld deals with the Homeworld engine, while we deal with the Freespace engine. And, despite it seeming weird that Homeworlders would be dealing with FS ships and story, it makes sense to keep all the knowledge and talent about each game engine one single sites.
But anyway, reasons aside, unfortunately HLP is currently not allowed to focus on other engines. Yes, we have a Freelancer discussion forum, where people can trade MODding tips and whatnot, but HLP as a whole is not focussed on Freelancer, nor can we host any MODs for the Freelancer engine.
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Dont let any work go to waste, if one MOD doesnt want it give it to another.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
About a new engine: it's a no-go - at least not here on HLP. Why do you think HLP isn't hosting the Homeworld MOD, where FS ships are put into the Homeworld engine? Because that's beyond our allotted territory here at GameSpy. Planet Homeworld deals with the Homeworld engine, while we deal with the Freespace engine. And, despite it seeming weird that Homeworlders would be dealing with FS ships and story, it makes sense to keep all the knowledge and talent about each game engine one single sites.
But anyway, reasons aside, unfortunately HLP is currently not allowed to focus on other engines. Yes, we have a Freelancer discussion forum, where people can trade MODding tips and whatnot, but HLP as a whole is not focussed on Freelancer, nor can we host any MODs for the Freelancer engine.
Solution: get another hostinmg service. We could all chip in $5 and get great hosting.
Note to self: start researching on how to make a web server.
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
Dont let any work go to waste, if one MOD doesnt want it give it to another.
[color=66ff00]Unfortunately most mods have their own style, work from one mod would look out of place in another. In some cases people like Venom who have put a great deal of time and effort into their mod are not willing to see everyone take their materials and place them in a context that's unsuitable.
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My work better damn well be interchangeable; I'm not doing a half-dozen nearly identical automatic-fire plasma guns because some prima donna thinks his terrans are so different.:D
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prima donna? how interesting :D
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Hey, they want some kinda special weapon I ain't seen before or done yet, that's one thing. But when I'm doing an animation for a primary weapon that's maybe two damage points and a speed value different from a dozen other primary weapons, it's the same fucking weapon.