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Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: Hippo on June 15, 2003, 11:32:25 am

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Hippo on June 15, 2003, 11:32:25 am

1. Is there any way to makea bomb fly in a spiral in FS1 like the tornados in FS2 when they're dumbfired?
2. If i wanted a bomb to only be carried one per bay, would  simply double the Harbinger $Cargo Size:         40.0 to 80.0?
3. If a Typhoon was disabled in subspace, is it reasonable to assume that it would be obliterated when it reached the end of the wormhole-thingy?

1&2 are most important, 3 is just speculation... And good mission plot...

--Hippo

Title: Re: 3 Q's
Post by: Tiara on June 15, 2003, 11:47:12 am

Quote

Originally posted by Hippo
1. Is there any way to makea bomb fly in a spiral in FS1 like the tornados in FS2 when they're dumbfired?
2. If i wanted a bomb to only be carried one per bay, would  simply double the Harbinger $Cargo Size:         40.0 to 80.0?
3. If a Typhoon was disabled in subspace, is it reasonable to assume that it would be obliterated when it reached the end of the wormhole-thingy?

1&2 are most important, 3 is just speculation... And good mission plot...

--Hippo

1 - SCP has made corkscrews possible IIRC
2 - ?
3 - If its disabled it doesn't move. It'd be stuck in subspace. At least thats what I think.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Knight Templar on June 15, 2003, 11:55:56 am

1: Corkscrews are already possible, just add the corkscrew tag or summat. it's in the tornado and hornet tbls, so look for it, then add it to your bomb's tbl.

2: Yes.

3: I never liked the idea of ships being able to manuver the same in subspace anyways, but V slapped me in the face with the last FS1 mission. Personally, I wouldn't say Beams should work in subspace, just because. and Derelict had that thing where supposedly explosions were amplified. Anyways, in V's opinion, I'd say the typhon would just be disabled and set there. In my opinion, I'd say it would get crushed by subspace 'pressure' or forces or whatever you want to call it, and eventually be destroyed.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Petrarch of the VBB on June 15, 2003, 12:34:16 pm

well if it's engines are disabled, then surely so are the subspace drives, and so it would drop out of subspace.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Knight Templar on June 15, 2003, 02:39:54 pm

why? all the subspace drives do is get it into subspace. Remember all that stuff about vibrating at the perfect frequency and ****? I don't think you'd need to keep vibrating if you were in a subspace corridor. Not to mention it'd really suck if you came out.

On the other hand, if you did fall out of subspace, wouldn't that mean you could just jump back in anywhere a tunnel exists? Kinda defeats the purpose of nodes....

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Hippo on June 15, 2003, 03:06:55 pm

for those who didn't notice, FS1 (no SCP)

As for subspace, im going to picture it as a wormhole that continues infintely in 2 directions, but only two known openings in the middle...

Spoiler:

I asked #3 because the PVD Hope is going to be disabled in subspace while pursuing HOL Prophesy, captured by shivans, and the Hope becoms disabled, so instead of the player attacking the Prophesy, they're going to have to protect the repair tranport from shivan attack... If you don't prtect it, the Hope will miss its known exit point while hurtling faster than light and you fail... ;7

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Knight Templar on June 15, 2003, 03:26:19 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Hippo


As for subspace, im going to picture it as a wormhole that continues infintely in 2 directions, but only two known openings in the middle...

That works, although it doesn't make any sense imo.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: TrashMan on June 15, 2003, 03:37:40 pm

Possibility - you can drop out of subspace at anytime (let's say, at half way trough), but you can only enter it at specific points (nodes).;7

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Flaser on June 15, 2003, 04:46:25 pm

I have a theory I keep reciting, I hope it will give some ideas this time as well:

You can enter subspace where it is aligned enough to form a subspace-field.
It is actually ordinary space created from the extra 6 dimensions that all elementary particles exist parallely with our known 4 dimensions (this is actually the latest in loop-physics, I didn't just make up the part about the 10 dimensions).
The problem with those is that most of the time they're folded up, so they don't interfere - or do it to an impossibly small degree, does 10E-31 ring any bells? - with ordinary space.
However it is possible, that although they don't connect to our 4 dimensions seemlessly they can form a space on their onw - and it doesn't have to have the same proportions as normal space - so you can travel faster in subspace.

Subspace are only used to align subspace with normal space and make an entry possible.
When the ship enters it actually "turns" into subspace. What? What the heck is that supposed to mean?
Well lets take 1D - linear - example. If an object existed in a 1D universe, where 1 more dimensions were folded up, you could model the universe as line on a plane where each point of the line has another dot assigned to it.
The random array of dots is actually subspace - they can form another line - another "space" - but you could go onto that space only in places where they interlope.
When "turning" the ship exists in multiple dimensions at once - its inside the dot where the spaces interlope, than its proportions get into another dimension, in a manner like rotating a paper - its dimensions among the 3 vectors of space change - if the object is in 10 dimensions it could rotate in an infinite more ways.

Well that's my principle idea of subspace.

It still does not answer why do nodes and jumps behave as they do. Here comes another part: gravity.
The techroom mentions that intrasystem jumps require less energy, but it needs a close, powerful gravitational field.

Gravity can be handled as if it bends space - subspace as well!
So where gravity is stronger it is easier to enter subspace, and subspace itself is more coherent allowing faster travel.

So each object with significant mass is generating a subspace bubble arroung itself - for anything smaller than a planet, the effect is insignificatn, but this explains why the Psamtik(?) missjumped when the Shatanes came in - the Shat was so huge it distorted subspace just a bit.

Nodes are the places in space where the gravitational pull between two stars is the greatest.

However tunnels existing between two stars' subspace bubble is a special place - the lack of lateral pull makes space inside the tunnel circular - if you kept going normal to the tunnel, you'd reach your starting point.
This has an unexpecteds effect: Electro-magnetic Waves (anything from infra-light to gamma-rays) and charged particles along with matter can get trapped in the middle of the tunnel.
The nice thing is that this energy has mass as well - that's actually framing the tunnel.
During the Big-Bang huge ammounts of energies flooded subspace - a decent percentage of this was trapped in tunnels, when the stars started drifting aside.
Each star also dumps some of its energy into the tunnel, so whenever the stars got further apart the tunnel was still supported by the energy frame.

This is the reason why shields cannot be used in subspace, they would be blown away by these energies in a matter of seconds.
They - most of the time - don't harm passing ships though, since this energy is on a stabilized *sometimes oscillating* "orbit" inside the tunnel, that can be avoided, shields on the other hand form strong electro-magnetic fields that channel these forces.

It would be a nasty thing to sabotate a ship by switching its shield on inside subspace - the fighter would feel the power accumulated during eons. Fried Terran anyone?

If the PVD hope was stuck in the middle of a subspace tunnel it would start to drift toward one of the stars - or if its in exact position the stars pull could equal each other.
The ship would also keep its momentum in subspace.
It would, drop out though.
It actually takes energy to get out of subspace as well.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: aldo_14 on June 15, 2003, 05:08:58 pm

Quote

For references - the FS1 ref bible informaiton on subspace

Subspace Technology

While travel into subspace is enabled via ship-borne devices (called “subspace engines”, “cores”, or “motivators”), it’s long been known that subspace itself is a naturally-occuring phenomena.  

Subspace, for the intents of this document, is an alternate physical plane of space where the normal limits of relativistic physics and travel don’t apply.  By entering subspace for a relatively brief period of time, a space vessel can emerge in a location in realspace several star systems away.  This technology has allowed the human race to spread across much of the known Galaxy.

There are essentially two modes of subspace travel, inter-system and intra-system.

Intra-system subspace travel is nearly instantaneous, and requires relatively little energy input to enable.  Most of the GTA’s advanced fighters are equipped with intra-system jump motivators, allowing them to travel at will within a given star system.  There is little or no restriction on the beginning and end points of such a subspace “hop,” except that they be in the same star system.  

Inter-system travel via subspace is another matter entirely.  The end points of inter-system subspace jumps are limited to the naturally-occuring focal points of subspace, also known as “nodes.”  These nodes were initially discovered by Prof. J. Whiteside (see McPherson’s Multipaedia  (2557 ed.), pp 1132-1140).  Only between two subspace nodes is the fabric of subspace strong enough to support inter-system travel.  The defense of the physical locations surrounding such nodes proved to be a central part of the 14-year Terran-Vasudan War.

In addition, such massive amounts of energy input are required to open an inter-system node, that only the largest fusion pile reactors in existence are able to sustain it.  As a result, inter-system subspace travel is almost exclusively made by the largest vessels in production.  This fact has made the GTA’s Orion-class destroyer/carriers a pivotal and crucial part to the GTA’s tactical forces during the T-V War.

Needless to say, the ability to deliver ships of war to nearly any pinpointed destination has forever revolutionized the concepts and long-standing tenants of space combat.


FS2 techroom details

In simple terms, subspace is an n-dimensional tunnel between one point in the universe and another. A vessel can travel through this tunnel in a matter of minutes, making a journey that might otherwise take decades or even centuries at light speed.

A jump drive causes a ship to vibrate in multiple dimensions until its modulations are in perfect synchronization with the subspace continuum. A vortex opens, creating an aperture from an infinitesimally small point in the cosmos, enabling the vessel to cross the subspace threshold.

Two types of jumps are possible.

First, an intrasystem jump can occur between two points in a star system. Most small, space-faring vessels are equipped with motivators capable of these short jumps. The presence of an intense gravitational field is required, prohibiting travel beyond the boundaries of a star system.

Second, ships can jump from system to system via nodes. Until the Great War, only larger ships could generate sufficient power to use jump nodes. The development of jump drives for fighters and bombers in 2335 enabled the Alliance to destroy the SD Lucifer in subspace. Producing these small jump drives is prohibitively expensive, so they are restricted to missions that require pilots to travel between systems. The Head-Up Display indicates the location of jump nodes with a green sphere.

The vast majority of subspace nodes are extremely unstable, forming and dissipating in nanoseconds. Other nodes have a longer lifespan, existing for centuries or millennia before collapsing. The jump nodes sanctioned by the GTVA for interstellar travel are expected to remain stable for many years.

I think you could justify it as saying that an engine problem would mean the Hope is unable to continue to modulate the ships 'vibration', and thus would lose coherence with subspaces.  As a result, the ships 'vibrations' would be mismodulated - i.e. it would become spread in multiple dimensions that would result in it's atomic structure being dissolved and thus it would be destroyed.

FS makes subspace look like a wormhole, but there's nothing actually written that I can think of that means that the 'tunnel' exists when there is no ship around it... i think you could read FS1 as being that a ship in subspace has a sort of 'bubble' around it that other ships (i.e. fighters around the Lucifer) can also exist in, w  i.e. where they share the modulated vibrations of the big ship.

Although, I reckon
"A jump drive causes a ship to vibrate in multiple dimensions until its modulations are in perfect synchronization with the subspace continuum."
was just shoved in there as a big of star-trek stylee gobbledegook.  And if time is a dimension, does that mean subspace travel also involves time travel, or at least movement in time (vibration in the time dimension)?

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Flaser on June 15, 2003, 05:53:21 pm

What you say can tie in quite nicely with my theory - it actually resembles Crest of the Stars, where they called it plane-space.
This is alos good because it puts an end to discussion about what is the shape or content of subspace - for a ship never truly enters subspace, instead in passes through it in its small capsule of normal space.

So to sum it up:
Subspace is the 6th otherwise folded dimensions of space.
A ship entering subspace alignes the dimensions into a bubble of normal space, which can then travel through subspace, while protecting the ship and its crew.
What is still up to description is, how is this buble is motivated?
Gravity can tie in too - gravity bends and partially alignes the dimensions, so when inside a system it takes a lot less energy to enter subspace, therfore even fighters can handle it.
This goes with "tunnels" - these is the area of space where the subspace is the most partially aligned between two stars.

So you have a spherical space around any object where space is a little bit more aligned, the alignation paralell to the gravity the object creates.

I also had another idea: the core of stars is in a constant multi-dimensional state, because their huge mass - so you can see them is subspace as well - though their light is greatly distorted as photons behave in a chaotic manner when torn apart.

As for the "energy rings" - or "light frame" I keep bubbling about it could be the way energy takes form around the bubble of a ship during inter-system travel, because the pull of the stars forces them to act in that manner.

Nodes are simply places where it is the easiest to open up subspace toward another star.
The reason why they are so small is that those areas are with the highest gravitational pull.
Therefore you have to place your ship very carefully to balance it out, probably on a Lagrange point, otherwise you can misjump and end up in nowhere, and have no hope of ever reaching a star.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Hippo on June 15, 2003, 06:15:30 pm

Quote

Origionally posted by Flaser
It would, drop out though.
It actually takes energy to get out of subspace as well.

Im hoping you mean not drop out, otherwise my mission is compromised...

As for the misiles, the swarm flag allows you to fire 4 or 8, but not a custom number, and if i have one bomb in each bay, it fired one from all 3 bays... and none corkscrewed...

Funny story; First test of huge dumbfire bomb with swarm;
I set up the wing with A2 and A3 reversed in fred. A2 fired all 3 bombs 5 seconds in. 2 hit me... all my subsystems were blown, all sheilds down, and at 31 percent hull... I call support, and it starts running from the bombs :wtf: (more like running beside...) so by the time it gets back to me, the Scorpions are 500meters from all the disabled Alphas... They rip through everyone and after i die, the lilith gets hit by the last bomb... All the subsystems blow out, and lightning arks across it... I can only guess what its hull was... but here i am... a field of debris... a destroyed Ursa, with the remnents of all 3 bombs drifting around... I never even got a chance to get a shot off... I never even saw the bombs fly, because when i was hit, i spun to the side...

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Flaser on June 15, 2003, 06:50:30 pm

It would drop out.
However with a slight change your scenario is still possible.
You see we still have no whatsoever explanation as of how is the spacetime bubble formed or how is it motivated.
If the reactor of the ship's still intact it could mean they can support the bubble, but due some damage or error no energy can be devoted to the nuclear engines
(I believe all ships in FS use nuclear engines - though fighters use a He^3+/H^1+ reactor, which would be too expensive for warships, and they have separate propelant mass onboard to be heated by the reactor and expelled.)

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Hippo on June 15, 2003, 07:25:12 pm

wha??? no... the point of is that you have to protect the transport as it docks, in subspace... if it doesn't get to its position in time, the plot is that the prophesy and all the other ships drop out, but the Hope either implodes with the end of the wormhole because it can't generate the field, or that it keeps going for ever, so the player has to protect the transport to complete the level...

I nee something tht, if you don't protect the transport, the Hope will be lost permenately... (whic is usually the case)

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Flaser on June 15, 2003, 07:39:10 pm

You could have a coolant leak - unless it gets fixed in time, the reactor is going off - so does the subspace bubble.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Hippo on June 15, 2003, 07:51:22 pm

tht work, and explainswhy the transport is docked, and nt just technitins inside... but if the bubble failed, would the Hope jut wink out of existance but still exist in a place unreachable?

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Flaser on June 15, 2003, 08:02:45 pm

It would be torn to particles smaller than atom...
Well...such is the nature of folded dimensions, only the smallest particles exist in them.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Knight Templar on June 15, 2003, 08:32:04 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Hippo


Im hoping you mean not drop out, otherwise my mission is compromised...

As for the misiles, the swarm flag allows you to fire 4 or 8, but not a custom number, and if i have one bomb in each bay, it fired one from all 3 bays... and none corkscrewed...

Funny story; First test of huge dumbfire bomb with swarm;
I set up the wing with A2 and A3 reversed in fred. A2 fired all 3 bombs 5 seconds in. 2 hit me... all my subsystems were blown, all sheilds down, and at 31 percent hull... I call support, and it starts running from the bombs :wtf: (more like running beside...) so by the time it gets back to me, the Scorpions are 500meters from all the disabled Alphas... They rip through everyone and after i die, the lilith gets hit by the last bomb... All the subsystems blow out, and lightning arks across it... I can only guess what its hull was... but here i am... a field of debris... a destroyed Ursa, with the remnents of all 3 bombs drifting around... I never even got a chance to get a shot off... I never even saw the bombs fly, because when i was hit, i spun to the side...

Use corkscrew, not swarm.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Galemp on June 15, 2003, 09:37:52 pm

No corkscrew tag in FS1, KT. As for the Hope being disabled in subspace... I think it would just sit there, like the Nyarlathotep, until it was towed out, repaired, or the tunnel desabilized and collapsed.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Knight Templar on June 15, 2003, 09:56:30 pm

Oh my bad. Missed the part where he said FS1. :nervous:

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: diamondgeezer on June 16, 2003, 10:59:17 am

Not to worry KT, he pulled the same trick on me the other day :nod:

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Flaser on June 16, 2003, 01:42:07 pm

I really like the space-time bubble idea because it explains a lot of things:
-What is subspace - the 6 folded up dimensions
-What's the warp

However than the Nyarlhotep isn't properly explained.
The part where pirates were jumping in is explained though. It was the moment when their bubble converged with the bubble of the Nyarlhotep.
It could be that the Shivan destroyer had an automatic subspace device which was active even in its dormant state.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Hippo on June 16, 2003, 02:34:27 pm

im going change my sig... "Chances are, this post was about FS1"

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Liberator on June 17, 2003, 03:19:49 am

Using corkscrew, can you control the number of missiles launched I remember I tried this not to long ago, it fired 8 bombs(I was in double fire) which swirled around a central point.  It's too unbelieveable using the default 4 per volley.  If it can't be controled it should be altered.

Title: 3 Q's
Post by: Hippo on June 17, 2003, 02:22:02 pm

Quote

Originally posted by Hippo in his sig
"Chances are, this post was about FS1"