Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: HotSnoJ on June 16, 2003, 08:48:09 pm
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Why didn't the shivans use a lucifer class destroyer in FS2?
Some possible explanations:
-They didn't have the right or enough resources to make a second.
-The Lucifer costs allot of mulla (or resources) and since it can be destroyed in subspace it wouldn't be a great idea. Not to mention it would collapse nodes and may be bad in the long run for them.
-There are more but the shivans didn't want to or could not get them to the area in which FS2 happens fast enough.
-They lost the plans.
-The Lucifer's shields couldn't stop beams.
-After contact with the terrans in Gamma Draconas (sp?) a Lucifer task force would not work.
-They just wanted to blow up the Cappella star. And that was their plan all along.
-A combo of these.
And of coarse this opens up more questions like, "Did the shivans have Sathanas during FS1?", "Is the Sathanas main purpose to blow up stars?"
Happy flaming...er...discussion(s)...:nervous:
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I always thought that there was only one Lucifier, built specifiaclly to exterminate the Terrans. Meh.
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"Some possible explanations:
-They didn't have the right or enough resources to make a second."
Yeah, and Christina Aguilera is concert master in the New York Philiharmonic Orchestra. If they can build 110 Santhanas juggernauts, they can build as many Lucifers as they want.
"-The Lucifer costs allot of mulla (or resources) and since it can be destroyed in subspace it wouldn't be a great idea. Not to mention it would collapse nodes and may be bad in the long run for them."
As I said previously, if the bugs can field 110 Sathanases and purposely sacrifice them to destroy a star (talk about wasted resources), they can build plenty of Lucifers.
"-There are more but the shivans didn't want to or could not get them to the area in which FS2 happens fast enough."
They probably didn't want to.
"-They lost the plans."
Almost impossible.
"-The Lucifer's shields couldn't stop beams."
BINGO! Now that the GTVA has beams, the Lucifer's main defense is useless. Besides its Shivan Super Lasers, it has no real weapons, so the Colossus or even a couple of destroyers would rip it to pieces.
"-After contact with the terrans in Gamma Draconis, a Lucifer task force would not work."
They didn't want to bring out Lucifers against an adversary with beams. The Lucifer is nothing more than a terror weapon, and once it's shields are defeated, it's much less terrifying.
"-They just wanted to blow up the Cappella star. And that was their plan all along."
I don't think Lucifers would be big enough to accomodate the gravity-warping thingamabobs
"-A combo of these."
Read my explanations.
"And of course this opens up more questions like, 'Did the shivans have Sathanas during FS1?', 'Is the Sathanas main purpose to blow up stars?'"
The Sathanas is probably a different sort of terror weapon that the Shivans use when their enemy doesn't get the message the first time around. Its main purpose is to scare the **** out of other races and destroy their fleets as well (that's why it has FOUR BFReds).
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I kinda think of the Lucifer as a scoting ship, or some sort of Transport for a shivan Queen or whatever. I mean, if it wasn't something like that, why not have every ship sheath shielded?
That would explain why they didn;t use Lucy in FS2 - if it was a scout ship, then they'd already encountered Terrans and Vasudans before, and if it was a queen ship, then they'd do well to keep it off the front lines given that we know how to destroy it.
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I'm not sure I agree with you on the final point there WW.
The Sathannas in my estimation was designed to destroy stars - I mean, no other shivan ship that we've seen has bendy arms, or anything like that kind of power. Similarly, if it was a warship, why not use it in FS1, straight after the loss of the lucifer? Presumeably their entrance point into our systems was still open, and at the FS1 level of tech a 6km long Shivan destroyer would have been utterly undefeatable, subspace or otherwise.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
I'm not sure I agree with you on the final point there WW.
The Sathannas in my estimation was designed to destroy stars - I mean, no other shivan ship that we've seen has bendy arms, or anything like that kind of power. Similarly, if it was a warship, why not use it in FS1, straight after the loss of the lucifer? Presumeably their entrance point into our systems was still open, and at the FS1 level of tech a 6km long Shivan destroyer would have been utterly undefeatable, subspace or otherwise.
Maybe there was social upheaval within the Shivan population after the Lucifer's defeat (if social and political upheaval is possible for Shivans) that prevented their armada from bringing new ships to the table. Maybe they wanted to lull the Terrans and Vasudans into a false sense of security, or maybe they wanted to wait for dissident groups to wear them down sufficiently before they made their move. Who knows?
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Maybe the Sathanas is simply the next evolutionary step in Shivan Technology. Given that they are an ancient race (even more so than the Ancients), it is plausible that they have the capability to mass produce ships of that size in 30 years. So therefore the Sathanas is simply a one up of the Lucifer, such as a Hecate is one up on the Orion (in theory) and the Colossus is one up further (in theory), or to use a contemporary example, the Seawolf is one better than the LA class attack sub. Simple technology evolution at work.
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FYI, from what we've seen on the SCP, we're pretty convinced that the fact shields pierce beams is a bug - not Volition's intent. :nod:
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Originally posted by Thor
Maybe the Sathanas is simply the next evolutionary step in Shivan Technology. Given that they are an ancient race (even more so than the Ancients), it is plausible that they have the capability to mass produce ships of that size in 30 years. So therefore the Sathanas is simply a one up of the Lucifer, such as a Hecate is one up on the Orion (in theory) and the Colossus is one up further (in theory), or to use a contemporary example, the Seawolf is one better than the LA class attack sub. Simple technology evolution at work.
The Hecate really isn't bigger and tougher than the Orion; it's just a redesign that addresses the Orion's lack of anti-fighter weaponry. In a one-on-one fight, the Orion would have the upper hand.
However, a Hatshepsut, Ravana, or Demon could kick both their asses.
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On the FS2 box:
...and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party...
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There isn't any actual evidence that Terran beams would have any effect on the Lucifer.
I tend to believe that they would but if anyone wants to say that they don't in their own campaigns I'd be perfectly happy to buy the explaination :)
As for the resources thing you aren't thinking deeply enough Woolie Wool. Who says building a sath uses exactly the same resources as a Lucifer? Suppose that building a Lucifer's reactors needs neutronium or some other exotic material that the shivans can only make or mine slowly?
As for losing the plans, the Ancients describe being beaten by something that sounds very similar to the Lucifer's attack on Vasuda Prime. If the Lucifer is 8000 years old then it's quite possible that in the intervening time the plans have gotten lost.
Basically you can make a pretty strong case for any of the reasons given by Hotsnoj.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
As I said previously, if the bugs can field 110 Sathanases and purposely sacrifice them to destroy a star (talk about wasted resources), they can build plenty of Lucifers.
I doubt that they sacrificed them. I believe that they engineered subspace somehow. And if I remember the particular cutscene correctly, a lot of the sathani, if not all, jumped out before capella collapsed.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Basically you can make a pretty strong case for any of the reasons given by Hotsnoj.
Thanks karajorma. Aleast you're thinking today :sigh:
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110 Sathanas? I thought there were :D ONLY:D 80. The Lucifer is the symbol of the threat of the Great War in FS1, Volition rather designed a ship comparable with the Colossus. I think the shields can provide adequate defense against beams, too. What makes you think the Ancients didn't have beam or some another type of weapons for mass destruction? Atomic bomb ;)
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Originally posted by Goober5000
FYI, from what we've seen on the SCP, we're pretty convinced that the fact shields pierce beams is a bug - not Volition's intent. :nod:
Doesn't matter what Volition's intent was. What we have, is a final release of a game which we must take as the basis for the canon of the universe in which that game is set. There is no way V could not have noticed that beams pierced shields, and if it was not their final (even if it was not their original) intent, then they are obviously lazier coders than we'd all been led to believe. Similarly, if beams were not meant to pierce shields, then the Collossus was an absolute waste of time.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Similarly, if beams were not meant to pierce shields, then the Collossus was an absolute waste of time.
Who says it wasn't? :lol:
Seriously though, just because the GTVA thought that the beams on the Colossus could penetrate the Lucifer's shields doesn't mean that they could.
Had the Colossus been designed in Sol I might be more willing to believe it definately could but since the Lucy was destroyed halfway into Sol the GTVA won't have access to any parts of the Lucy to check if their theory was correct.
It is quite possible that had a second Lucifer shown up that the Colossus could have sat there for hours firing at it with no effect.
Everyone assumes that the shields on the Lucifer would be broken by current GTVA beams but there is no data whatsoever to support that position.
We all assume that beams ignore shields based on what happens when a fighter gets hit but that's like assuming that cause a bullet can penetrate plate mail it can go straight through a tanks armour.
Remember that the Lucifer never took a single hitpoint in damage until the final mission which means that it's shields are incredibly powerful, maybe even strong enough that even a beam can't pierce them.
Lastly what no one here seems to have mentioned is that the Shivans had 32 years to improve the shields on the Lucifer. It might be that even now they are working on a new version that is beam resistant varient of the Lucifer sporting a couple of OMFG-Reds instead of the wimpy proto-beams that the original Lucifer had.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Remember that the Lucifer never took a single hitpoint in damage until the final mission
Actually, there is one mission in the original FS1 campaign where the mission designers forgot to make it invulnerable. The Lucifer jumps in and never jumps out, even when you're finished all your mission objectives.
Not to pass up a chance like that, my roommate took the opportunity to pound away at it with nothing but a Valkyrie armed with Promethei and Furies. He did eventually destroy it, but it came back a few missions later. :)
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That must have took longer than the Hades :nervous:
Well, what if the Lucy had a specific purpose. It has a target on a planet, and it's job is to bring a support fleet in, destroy the target, and leave. Obviously, since Earth was cut off, there would be no more need for the Lucifer.
The real question is, what the **** were the Sathanes doing in and only in Capella?
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well, I think that the Lucifer is invulnerable to all GTVA weapons including beams. It simply cannot be destroyed outside of subspace. Why the Shivans didn't just rush the GTVA with 100 Lucifers in FS2 I don't know.
Originally posted by Knight Templar
The real question is, what the **** were the Sathanes doing in and only in Capella?
getting ready to eat deep fried Terrans:D
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Would you send an Army Battalion to stop a Bank Robber?
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ok 10 Lucifers then. What I'm saying is they could have rushed us with Lucys instead of Saths
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Well again, if you look at the shivan's logic and tactics, it doesn't seem like they were aiming for our total extermination.
I mean, it's negligible that they were looking to erradicate the Terrans and Vasudans by looking at their actions in FS1, and even if they were, they certainly were going about it in a round about way. Not to mention having Sol Cut off would be to their disadvantage as well as ours (obviously they wanted to go their for a reason.)
And they deffinitly weren't trying to do anything like that with the Sathanas fleet.
I think they had two distinct purposes, and neither were as broad as "exterminate the human race".
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Originally posted by karajorma
Lastly what no one here seems to have mentioned is that the Shivans had 32 years to improve the shields on the Lucifer. It might be that even now they are working on a new version that is beam resistant varient of the Lucifer sporting a couple of OMFG-Reds instead of the wimpy proto-beams that the original Lucifer had.
Also, the Shivans had thousands of years to develop their technology and presumably the Lucifer, or that type of ship, is at least 8,000 years old. So why don't other ships have the same type of shields?
Personally, I think the information gleaned from the Ancients allowing the destruction of the Lucifer also allowed the GTVA to develop weapons that negate that type of shielding. So perhaps the Sathanas does indeed have a shield but the current weapons are better. Remember, the basic weapon in FS2 is based on the Banshee, the best weapon in FS1.
I don't think the Sathanas was developed in 32 years. I think they have been around forever, Shivans just didn't use them in the Great War. Why?
I assume the Shivans have never been defeated in all their history - who knows how many thousands of years that has been. Also assuming the "hive-mind" concept is correct, then I believe the Shivans are somewhat specialized in their functions and duties in the hive, similar to ants and bees.
There would be several classes such as warrior and worker. They may have others that don't really fit the ant analogy. I've never seen ants fly space ships! But you get the idea. It appears their ships also fit this analogy to a certain extent. And that makes sense - even the GTVA has different types of ships with different functions and specialities.
So, based on how the Shivans acted after the destruction of the Lucifer, the Lucifer was at least "The Queen" of that group. Perhaps it was a new hive in search of an area of space to set up a new "nest". That may explain why it had extra shielding and why there was only one.
The Sathanas represent the "Warrior" class of the main hive. A new hive wouldn't have the opportunity to have any warriors. A new queen bee or ant breeds workers first to build the nest. Warriors and other classes come after the nest has been established to a certain extent.
In the same way as the army ant marches across the land, devouring what's in sight, the Shivans may just be coming through Terran-Vasudan space.
Now that I've said all this, I don't like it. It makes the Shivans too much like something we already know. I think parts may be correct but there is a lot missing.
I do believe the Shivans didn't see Terrans and Vasudans as intelligent until the Bosch used the ETAC device. Even then, they only grabbed certain individuals, not the whole crew. Perhaps the Shivans thought Bosch and his inner circle were the "Queens" and didn't bother collecting the drones.
I don't think the destruction of Capella was intended to exterminate - that was just a side effect. The Shivans were either creating another nebula (I doubt) or were creating a huge subspace portal to "someplace else" (as suggested in the final cut-scene). It just happens that the type of sun we like makes the best nodes.
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Originally posted by redsniper
ok 10 Lucifers then. What I'm saying is they could have rushed us with Lucys instead of Saths
Ah, but they didn't want to rush us (at least I believe so). The second time, they didn't care for the Terrans at all. All they wanted was Capella.
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I reckon all the Lucifers had been destroyed by the time of FS2.
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In the FS1 era, without beams, the lucifer would have easily destroyed earth and everything else if it too he time to destroy any opposition before it entered subspace...
As for what blackstar said last, the shivans have had time to evolve, but they might not even have had to evolve... for all we know, theywere first inferior, traveled subspace nd were met by the great destroyers... but instead of being destroyed, or destroying them, like the terrans, they might have subdued and eliminated the old destroyers ad gained all their knowedge... for that, they may be the ancients.. after all, we don't know that they did die... they may have become the destroers at the last moment...
If someone doesn't undersatnd i word i've said, ask me again...
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Urgh...
I believe we're going down a road that's main brige is supported by an evident but also extremely false collumn: our humanity.
The USA or Great Britain of the 21'th century would develop a new series of warships within 10 years.
However the Great China of ancient history wouldn't.
We don't know which category the Shivans fit into.
Personally I would go for the second - they were around for thousands of years. A space-faring race! There's no way in hell that they wouldn't have met someone else. They were in a constant state of challenge, - well living in space is a challenge - but I doubt any form of goverment similar to european models (including the USA) would widstand that long time.
Even our models of individiality would be obliterated in that much time. A sentient specie would redefine its idea of self, group, nation, race and existance as a whole.
The entire development ever since we left the caves was based on individualism - and it took 2000 years to truly make it our own!
We're uterly underestimating them - just like the GTVA. Building 80 Sathaneses? In 32 years? Impossible - especially for a race which no longer visits planets, so their resorces could be inaccesable. If they are, than we're even more underestimating them. Building the Collosus took alomost 40 years!
I think the Saths were around all the time. The Shivan may have even bigger ships, but the Sath could be the backbone of their fleet.
We speak of the Shivans as a collective nation, organised and set in motion with a plan.
For all we know they could be in anarchy, they could be the true übermensch, but we keep refering to them as if they were just another country from Earth.
I think we lack perspective.
Even the hive-mind theories are just scraping the surface...that's why I hate some recent sci-fi flicks - they don't realize what is the true effect of events and advancements they're talking about.
Advancement is not about technology alone - and I guess the Shivans are beyond technological development, the Terrans are just lucky to defeat them a couple of times, because their enemy is too rigid to fit their adversary.
Most Shivan ships are way better than their Terran counterpart, they simply lack the right tactics and fine-tooning.
Back to technology - or the lack of it development - the Shivans are so alien, not just because we don't know anything about them - it is also because their fundament is completly different than our own.
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And because of our inherent human stupidity, we fail to understand that which is different. We don't understand, we judge.
It could be that they hadn't have to fight another race that actually offered some resistance that they thought they could easily overrun the GTVA. They might've underestimated us. And as you can see in FS2, they use FAR more force then in the First Great War. It was only due to the fact that the Terran/Vasudans got to a level of technological advancement that the Shivans again, underestimated us. However, if this is the case, next time they'll bring in the big ship that makes things go BOOM in a nanosecond.
However, to understand the Shivans is nearly impossible. IMO only Bosch might've started[/u] to understand them. All of us and in the GTVA they still go "Huh? what the f*ck r they!?".
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Quite right. The way I see it, the Shivans haven't evolved because there hasn't been any need to. Until they met us, they haven't a real challenge yet, expect maybe the possible species they're fighting. They are simply superior to every other space faring race. But slowly, they're stagnating.
That's why their ships are tactically inferior to ours. They just don't bother anymore. They just hurl more and more of them at us, knowing that eventually we would be defeated.
Now Bosch contacted them. He did something no other race had done before. That worried Shivans. So they wanted to study him, but moreso, they wanted him out of the way.
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True.
Though I'm willing togo with the scouting party expalnation.
We're talking about space - huge space - so they must have been pretty solitary - in other words, the general Shivan population wouldn't have heard of the whole ordeal until the Gamma Draconis incident - where the Shivans could have droped in just to have a look at a primitive device...
This would explain why the Shivan lost after the Lucifer blew up - they lost their HQ and they were on their own, and despite their technological upperhand they couldn't pull their pants together under the GTA/PVN's constant hammering.
So a shiven fleet jumps in wondering:
"Err sir?"
"Yeah?"
"Is it not the same where the omega-delta-12 scouting party disappered?"
"I guess you're right. But what do you mean disappear their next report isn't due in a 100 years" :devil:
The Lucifer wasn't designed to be a warship - it was a mothership for a small fleet.
Now I wonder what a true Shivan resuply/service station/world would look like.
As for Capella - they were pounding the GTVA real hard, but it could have been a second hand objective, finding the scout party could be their first.
In Capella for some reason they had to do an extreme range jump, and create a node for it - the 6 extradimension+gravity bent/space-time bubble theory explains it quite nice - they simply drained the star to channel its power.
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OK, how about this theory.
The Shivans are not the designers of their fleet. It could be that an ultra ancient race (think way old) designed these weapons of war, and made thousands before their race died out. The Shivans were either A) damn lucky to make a find like this or B) more likely an engineered race designed to destroy things. Therefore, the Shivans do not actually develope new weapons, but simply use the existing one. Now, the Lucy is much like a modern Aircraft carrier. IT has the ability to destroy almost any thing. now for the most part it is sufficient to quell threats and such. So the progenitors may have made very few. But there are times when the heavy firepower is needed. So the Progenitors designed the Sathaanas as the end all be all of ships, but intened them as a last resort. So, the Shivans knowing only what their designers taught them, use the ships in that order. Use the cost effective ships first, then the heavy hitters next. Its pausible then that the shields are beam piercable because no race lasted that long before.
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Imagine the Shivans are us, and we're the equivalent of an anthill to them - an irritant, intruding on their space (subspace, specifically). In FS1, they simply sent a token force to take care of us, and turn their attention to other matters, more important wars. In FS2, we pushed further (into the nebula) into their space. They might not have even been aware that the GTVA was the same force as they had faced 30 years before - they could have just assumed that the Lucifer had suceeded.
So they sent a bigger force as the 'intruder' was more 'threatening' than before, and they had obviously failed before. But something happened - Bosch communicated with them. Imagine if the ants talked back? You'd be curious.
So were the Shivans, so they took Bosch out of curiousity - even if it was just for tactical reasons (know thy enemy). And they decided that they could find some use for the GTVA, so instead of clearing out the hive as such, they closed the door and sealed the GTVA in by nova-ing Capella.
It's only a theory... and one of the questions has to be why Capella and not Gamma Draconis?
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Aldo's theory fits their behaviour better.
I believe that the Shivans are simply decadent and they hadn't changed a bit during the last 32years because they hadn't had to in the past few thousand as Stuanepp said.
I'm against the hive-mind theory though - their combat tactics would be far superior and would rely on teamwork if it was true.
I think they're beyond our level of individualism - they are onanother plane of self-estimation.
Our current self-image is our autonomous indiviality and the world connected by some kind of fundamentum - that either being a goddes, materilism or science or whatever faith you have.
Furthermore we're living in a linear world, because we experience time as passing - so what was once will be no more, and should be no more. Therefore we're running into the furture, and are never truly in the present. This a christian thing that has nothing to do with religion and has become quite dominant throught the advanced world.
The Shivans on the other hand could be something like Nietzche's übermensch. The ubermensch does not experience time as series of moments each of those infinite on their own.
The ubermensch does not condemn the past, rather it embraces it with all its faults.
Well this is a life-thretening thought. Could you say that after the Holocaust?
If you're an ubermensch you, do. God's dead because you've taken his place, your whole existence is bond to you, therefore there's no need for a fundament. There's no regret and no conscience.
It's an animalistic life.
It's quite impossible to imagine a society made of these kind of individuals, but it could be the Shivans are like that.
See what I mean?
Even a seemingly - and for us evident - little thing being change could wield to a drasticly different experience of life, and it's hard even to imagine what it would be like, let alone experience it.
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Of course, one of the big questions is how Shivans are actually born..... are they built from scratch in some way, or grown and then outfitted with 'armour', or do they simply somehow emerge and rapidly grow, armour et al, into their adult form? If there's a hive, is there a Queen?
By the same logic, have any Shivans even been born in the last xxxx thousand years?
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...and there's the bioship theory.
I'm willing to go with it to some extents:
-Shivan ships seem to have an organic look, at least their armor is wrinkled in places.
-They could have parts that were literally grown.
But I don't think the Shivans are their ships, though they may have a cybernetic/neural interface to link them up.
Weaponry is not likely to be grown neither is reactors or anything highly electronical.
The hull, the frame could be grown though - and would be self-reparing to an extent as well.
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wait, I thought the shivans didn't have armour?
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Shivan ships have a lot less armor than Terran or Vasudan ships, but they still have.
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Shivans aren't part of their ships. If they were, how would Terrans be able to pilot them?
Flame me....
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I never said they were, I'm actually against the idea.
What I said is parts of a Shivan ship could be grown and later assembled with non-organic components.
The Shivans may jack-up onto their ship's computer like a cyberpunk hacker, but that's all - this doesn't make them part of their ships.
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Well that could be messy. I kind of like the organic ship idea
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I've always thought of the Lucifer and its fleet as kind of a first test. For what, I'm not sure (though I could speculate further given what was planned for future FS games). The Ancients failed the first test, being wiped out by the Lucifer (probably the same Lucifer in FS1), the Terrans and Vasudans passed. Barely.
FS2 was the next test, a bigger, nastier test. I'm not sure the GTVA passed, but I doubt they failed. Being able to take out one Sathanas might have been the key to passing, then in preperation for the next test, the Shivan nuked Capella. Or maybe Bosch was the key. In fact, I think he might have been more important than the Sathanas. FS3 is the final test, and revelation of what is really going on, for good or ill.
Either that or the Shivans are simply stupid killing machines, one or the other.
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Listen to Flaser and Aldo guys, they definately have the right idea.
I've tried to write a conclusion to FreeSpace 2 several times now. Its been really hard. I'll tell you why. Because I try to think in terms of objectives, goals, motivations...none of which we have any identifiable evidence of with the Shivans. Yes they respond on a tactical and strategic level but only to beat the opposition...we have no evidence of resources they want, or territory to control....in FreeSpace 1...Vasuda Prime and Earth were obvious targets but aside from total extermination, there was no real motivation for it. Not that we are aware of anyways.
I like Flasers connection with ancient China. Shivans aren't a really dynamically changing speices from what we can see. Those Sathanas' have probably been around for thousands of years. Probably most of their ships are.
As far as Capella was concerned, I don't think we were even important in that battle.
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Maybe it was Shivan Independence Day?:ha:
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Originally posted by Thor
Maybe it was Shivan Independence Day?:ha:
LOL.
"Celebrate your country's independance by blowing up a small piece of it!"
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Theory 1 : Read the background to MindGames. Geezer came up with a very credible theory for what the shivans were up to that also fits in with the whole "Shivans as part of a bigger problem" idea.
Theory 2: Suppose that the Lucifer fleet had no contact with the second shivan fleet. When the second fleet encounter the terrans they know they can can beat them so they don't send huge amounts of resources in. When they meet and take Bosch they completly have to rethink the GTVA. Maybe Bosch lies to them about how powerful we are in an attempt to make them think we are worth joining with. Thinking we have a fleet of thousends of Colossuses they panic and blow up Capella :D
The shivans did appear to change what they were up to after taking Bosch. That could be wrong but it does appear that way.
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I have always felt as though they were sort of the gate keepers of space, or perhaps more acurately the god(s) of subspace, I feel there is absolutly no chance at all for us to beat them in any way (other than running/hideing), I think FS1 they sent the equevilent of a bug guy, and in FS2 they swated at some flies as they fixed something (knossos posably damaged 'there' subspace). I think the entire subspace network the GTVA has been useing (as well as the anchents and all of the other countless aliens for millions of years) was created by the shivans and when any new race starts encroching on there property they simple kill it, much like if you saw a roach in your home you would swat it, if there were enough you might get a can of raid (the lucifer is basicly one big can of raid/whoopass). we have yet to see a real shivan military ship, what we have seen so far might be just some part of a giant peice of construction equipment, the shathanas might just be a ship with minimal defences designed to fix small/medium subspace anomolies by redirecting the gravity/subspace feild genorated by a star.
if we realy pissed them of I think we would detect large masses of the universe moving sudenly twards us, I don't think we have the capability to suficently piss them off however, no mater how many roaches you may have you are not likely to take a tank to them, maybe an asault rifle if you're in a bad mood but realisticly that isn't going to happen too often.
the shivans motivations are unknowable, they want nothing that we know of, the desire nothng that we know of. but we know they are doing something, we will just simply never know what it is that there ultimate goals and desires are, if we are lucky we might get to see part of it.
one of the things that I think is in the relm of "what the shivans do in there spare time" is simply spreading, moveing to new space makeing it's subspace feilds nice and orderly. cuting the trees draining the swamps and puting up nice little suburbs, native fona be damned. note I'm not saying that what they want or there ultimate goal is, I'm not equateing there actions with actualy makeing a home in our galixy, I am simply saying what ever they are doing (wich involves moveing into new space) it seems to us the same way that our coloniseing of the world would look like to some small animal.
the shivans move to a new galixy they arainge it's gravity/subspace feilds so that it can be conected with there equivelent to an interstate highway, then they colonise it (not literaly, they do whatever it is that they do), the FS world is currently in phase two, shivans are altering the feilds of our galixy and are getting ready for phase three, moveing in.
we will never know what they want beond moveing into our galixy becase once that happens we will not be here anymore to ponder it, much like a roach will not know any more of you after you kill it for existing.
FreeSpace 3:
everyone get's totaly screwed
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and on the subject of Shivan bioarmor, I once though that, but after looking at the ships, and the textures it looks more like nano-engeneered crystal, basically there ships are made of industrial diamond.
maybe some sort of boimass/nanotech stuff in there just for the fun of it (actualy it would alow the ship to fix it'self when not in combat). the ships are probly constructed with something that is so advanced it could probly be clasified as ether a highly engeneered living material and/or some sort of nanite, after the ships are constructed some of the nanocells remain, but most ether move on to the next ship or are consumed by the others for materials.
but this is just pointless technobable.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
So they sent a bigger force as the 'intruder' was more 'threatening' than before, and they had obviously failed before. But something happened - Bosch communicated with them. Imagine if the ants talked back? You'd be curious.
So were the Shivans, so they took Bosch out of curiousity - even if it was just for tactical reasons (know thy enemy). And they decided that they could find some use for the GTVA, so instead of clearing out the hive as such, they closed the door and sealed the GTVA in by nova-ing Capella.
It's only a theory... and one of the questions has to be why Capella and not Gamma Draconis?
Probably Capella hadn´t got anything to do with Bosch. Because the first Sathanas was already there before bosch was captureed, and amassing a fleet of 80 Juggernauts has to take SOME time. Which makes you curious doesn't it.
Why was the first Sathanas sent, if they really are means to destroy stars.
I have an idea, but I'll be elaborating on that on a future LM release.
Anyhow, back to the point, I believe that the first invasion hadn't got anything to do with the other. This explains why the Knossos hadn't been discovered until 2367. The Shivans never used it before, but they were planning the destruction of Capella ahead. Now in 2367 they activated the portal, we discovered it, and [kosh] so it began [/kosh]
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It's only a theory... and one of the questions has to be why Capella and not Gamma Draconis?
The Knossos was in Gamma Draconis, and removing the star would really mess up gravity in the system. The Knossos could also be destroyed, or the spinning pieces could be shifted out of alignment and hit each other. And if actually survived, it would slingshot off in one direction and get farther and farther away from the Capella node, making it necessary to perform more and more power on intrasystem jumps...if that's possible with the star destroyed (I've always figured the gravitational field of stars allows for the intrasystem jumps somehow).
That brings up an odd idea for Capella...maybe the Shivans were destroying Capella to remove the GTVA's ability for interspace jumps, rather than destroying the nodes (which they might see as holy, inviolate, or irreplaceable)?
Edit: More on topic. :D
The Lucy, IMHO, was the command ship of a long-term scout fleet. Basically, the Shivans seed the area with small scouting groups and when they detect vessels with a certain amount of technological level, they locate their command center and destroy it. Since it's a "first-contact" group, the primary concern would be protecting the mothership from primitive weapons, so it could continue on its mission for, theoretically, forever. (rather than be worn down by attrition)
The Shivan tactics in FS1 make sense if you go with a centralized-mind mentality, with a central "brain-bug" controlling multiple drones. In FS1 it says the Shivans were only interested in controlling jump nodes; they were, strategically, performing surgical strikes against the "brain-planets" of the Terrans and Vasudans. They probably discovered in the computers of a destroyed ship that the source of their orders was either Vasuda Prime or Terra, and made that their prime target. They then bombarded the planets in an attempt to kill whatever commanded the fleets, perhaps not realizing it could be moved.
The Lucifer is perfect for that kind of operation; shields protect it from primitive vessels' weapons as it heads towards a central planet, then it proceeds to orbitally bombard the planet's surface. Of course, the Terrans surprised them by discovering a way to track ships and subspace.
So, to sum it up, I think the Lucy was just a scouting group's command ship, tasked with destroying species before they could threaten the Shivans.
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Sun goes boom! -> Messes up subspace -> and a huge ass node is created in the middle of GTVA territory.
Meh... j/k :p
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Or maybe in Sol, who knows... could be that the Shivans are just really stubborn and singleminded. :p
Which of course fits with the brainbug theory. :D
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
The Knossos was in Gamma Draconis, and removing the star would really mess up gravity in the system. The Knossos could also be destroyed, or the spinning pieces could be shifted out of alignment and hit each other. And if actually survived, it would slingshot off in one direction and get farther and farther away from the Capella node, making it necessary to perform more and more power on intrasystem jumps...if that's possible with the star destroyed (I've always figured the gravitational field of stars allows for the intrasystem jumps somehow).
A great theory except for the fact that the knossos had already been blown up by that point! :lol:
Personally I tend to go with the theory that whatever the Shivans did to Capella wasn't something they could do to Gamma Draconis.
Capella Aa has a mass 2.7 times that of the Sun. Sigma Draconis on the other hand is nearly five times heavier than Sol. Perhaps the Shivans couldn't spare another 80 Saths needed to make it go boom instead! :D
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Originally posted by karajorma
A great theory except for the fact that the knossos had already been blown up by that point! :lol:
:lol: Errrrr...there was another Knossos, yes, that's it. :D
At least it's a new theory. ;)
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I've been proposing my idea about subspace that brings some sense to events both in FS1 and 2.
According to the lastest physics the most elementary particles exist in 10 dimensions, 6 of those are folded up, so they have very little affect on the macro scale of atoms.
Subspace is when those dimensions are aligned into a space forcebly.
Gravity bends these dimensions and therefore makes the process easier.
With enough energy subspace can be created anywhere.
In Capella they didn't make the sun go boom - they drained it!
Witout the heat from the thermonuclear fusion, the star collapsed since nothing countered the gravitational pull.
So the nova was only a secondary effect, what we saw is the creation of an extreme distance subspace node.
A ship traveling in subspace only creates a bubble of space-time reality. In that bubble the ship can move with conventional engines - and thereby push the bubble along.
For a limited ammount the path has to be aligned a little bit to control the bubble, but for intra-system jumps it requires very little energy thanks to the stars gravitational field.
For a long distance jump it takes more - that's why they have to use nodes.
Nodes are the places where the gravity is the strongest between the stars - the problem is that it's the most unstable as well in those regions.
So certain Lagrange points are set where the various torch, and tension forces cancel each outher out creating a reliable place for an inter-system jump.
The Knossos somehow provided an adittional pull an therefore helped the creation of nodes.
Inside subspace the problem with explosions is that they deform the space-time bubble arround the ship - which can create abberant alignments inside the node or a tunnel and in turn can cut off the part instead connecting it.
The shields are actually a derivation of this "bubble" - they are a dual layer of "bubbles" encasing a nanoscale portion of 10 dimensional subspace - this is also the reason why shields can't be used in subspace.
It also explains why the GTA and the PVN could adept to it so fast.
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Ok, so they drained the energy... And then what? Lose the energy by being blown up by the nova? Seems a wee bit pointless to me.
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Originally posted by Tiara
Ok, so they drained the energy... And then what? Lose the energy by being blown up by the nova? Seems a wee bit pointless to me.
They diverted the energy to aligning the subspace for an exteme range jump!
That thing needs a load of energy - probably way more than what the Shats could do with their reactors.
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:blah:
So, they came to destroy a star... for what reason?
If it is how you are saying, it is not for the energy, as that would be used for the jump.
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'Shivans are the Great Destroyers, but also the Great protectors' :D
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Originally posted by Tiara
:blah:
So, they came to destroy a star... for what reason?
If it is how you are saying, it is not for the energy, as that would be used for the jump.
The ending scenes of FS2 give some insight on possible reasons why they destroyed Cappella. The star itself is a focal point of local gravity...
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The way the tech room describes subspace gives the impression that a ship should "phase" into subspace (similar to the Shadows) instead of creating a portal.
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That's what it does - once subspace has been aligned the "bubble" can enter it - so from an outside point of view it "phases" into subspace.
Subspace is not like hyperspace of wormwholes.
The first is limitless which is clearly not the way subspace acts, while the second is about two black-holes that are connected.
What we do know about subspace is that it's limited - it has nodes, and it is influenced by gravity.
The 6dimension-space-time bubble theory integrates all those, and gives an explanation to several events.
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Flaser, I don't mean to offend you but your explaination of subspace sucks. Mixing actual science with "hypothetical theories" is bad. Vewy bad!
Cause if I'd be allowed to use "hypothetical theories" as well I too could come up with an explaination. But again, V didnt give enough info and we 21st century Terrans have no clue on what it is. Quit trying to rationalize what you don't understand with "hypothetical theories" :p.
Meh... *walks away from the thread and doesn't look back*
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Flaser - what about missiles? Those still work in subspace, despite lack of modification.
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maybe the Shivan's home world/system is in GTVA space. They left for 8000 years only to come back and find Terran and Vasudan vermin all over their home. So, they send in the Lucy to exterminate us but when it doesn't come back they send the Sath fleet to finish the job.
OR
originally posted by Zeronet
'Shivans are the Great Destroyers, but also the Great protectors'
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Originally posted by WMCoolmon
Flaser - what about missiles? Those still work in subspace, despite lack of modification.
The battle against the Lucifer actually took place in its own space-time bubble, so it was the same as using it in normal space.
Shields on the other hand would have distorted the bubble...if it is even possible to raise one inside subspace.
If you want more info about this whole "bubble business" go watch Crest of the Stars, or read about its plane-space.
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What I find funny in these sort of discussions is how everyone focuses on the Lucifer being some sort of 'special ship' for an -insert here- (queen, hivemind, sensor grid, comm node, super market, etc.)
The real question is not what makes the Lucifer worth shielding, since even Shivan fighters are though they have smaller shields. But why Shivan capital ships so far seen other then the Lucifer do not have shields.
With the GTVA it's common sense, shielding for large scale craft has power requirements that they cannot match yet. (Even the Hades didn't have its shield system fully working)
For the Shivans, perhaps there is *something* in the design of all Shivan ships other then fighters, bombers, and the Lucifer class that does not allow for shielding technology to be used.
Just some food for thought.
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Originally posted by Flaser
The battle against the Lucifer actually took place in its own space-time bubble, so it was the same as using it in normal space.
Shields on the other hand would have distorted the bubble...if it is even possible to raise one inside subspace.
If you want more info about this whole "bubble business" go watch Crest of the Stars, or read about its plane-space.
but shivans aren't blue with pointy ears ;)
applying the tech fluff from one universe to another often doesn't work at all, and there's not much in common between the shivan and abh techs, for exemple, so you can't draw that kind of comparison.
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Originally posted by Venom
but shivans aren't blue with pointy ears ;)
applying the tech fluff from one universe to another often doesn't work at all, and there's not much in common between the shivan and abh techs, for exemple, so you can't draw that kind of comparison.
I never said they were.
It was an offhand comment about the space-time bubble that the subspace travel uses. Some of the things are similar, but most are not.
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Originally posted by Ace
What I find funny in these sort of discussions is how everyone focuses on the Lucifer being some sort of 'special ship' for an -insert here- (queen, hivemind, sensor grid, comm node, super market, etc.)
The purpose of the Lucifer was to download a Cultural Database! :ha:
The real question is not what makes the Lucifer worth shielding, since even Shivan fighters are though they have smaller shields. But why Shivan capital ships so far seen other then the Lucifer do not have shields.
With the GTVA it's common sense, shielding for large scale craft has power requirements that they cannot match yet. (Even the Hades didn't have its shield system fully working)
For the Shivans, perhaps there is *something* in the design of all Shivan ships other then fighters, bombers, and the Lucifer class that does not allow for shielding technology to be used.
Just some food for thought.
Well, for me I think they are shielded like the Lucifer but the GTVA learned how to negate those shields. If the Sathanas showed up in FS1 then it also would be impervious to the weapons used at that time. If another Lucifer showed up in FS2 then it would appear not to have shields. So the whole cap-ship shields thing is now moot.
BTW, in terms of the hive-mind, there are individuals and individual initiatives taken, but only within the context of the orders received. For instance, a worker ant may have a specific task: Go find food. But where the ant looks or what path it takes is completely up to it. Ants are not in constant communication with the Queen to the extent that when the Queen is destroyed the ants drop. Worker ants will continue doing what the always do: Find food, fix the nest, etc. Otherwise, antfarms wouldn't work.
I don't believe Shivans are "dump terminals" plugged into a massive server. And I don't think there is a single Queen that controls everything. But the Lucifer was certainly central to that group of Shivans in terms of coordinating their efforts. And going strictly by what was said in game about the Shivans after the destruction of the Lucifer, it was observed that they were quite disorganized afterward.
I think there is a far greater ability to communicate with each other and a far greater reliance on that communication than we have, but it isn't one hundred percent.
I think it was only a small(er) group of Shivans that communicated with Bosch and formed and "alliance" with him. I don't think the entire Shivan armada was aware of Bosch or his ability to communicate. That's why he was brought through the nubula, through Knossos #2 and to where ever it was they ended up. If Bosch could talk to the entire "collective" (to use the Borg terminology) then they wouldn't have had to take him anywhere.
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Actually any army would be in a huge disarray if their HQ was destroyed, and the whole command chain crippled.
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Yes, but subcommanders could take the initiative and command small units with minimal communication between them. Shivans don't have that level of individualism, but neither do they have total reliance on a collective intelligence. They fall someplace in between, just close to the collective.
So, any ideas why the Shivans only took Bosch and a few extras rather than the whole crew?
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why would they need the whole crew? Bosch himself said Neo-Terra was just a bunch of mindless cattle, all they needed were the top guys who were apart of ETAK. That was the whole point behind the Neo Terran Front.
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Well, you and I know that, but how would the Shivans? Unless Bosch told them, "Oh, don't worry about them, they aren't really important. Besides, I'm going to blow this ship up after we leave."
My guess is the Shivans were thinking about Terrans in Shivan terms: Workers have limited intelligence while commanders (queens) have more. Basically, and again, I'm trying to support a limited "hive-mind" for the Shivans. If Shivans had a complete hive-mind, then I suggest they would assume Terrans did too. Therefore, grabbing ANY Terrans would be just as good as grabbing the leader.
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Originally posted by TopAce
:D ONLY:D 80.
Yeah, "only" 80. That's still a lot of juggernauts.
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NB: some messages from the mission in question
"This is Victor 3. We've entered a slaughterhouse, command. Casualty rate in the thousands, Shivan bodies are among the dead. Proceeding now to dock seven"
"The Shivans boarded us! They killed everyone! I've got thirty-three survivors in deck seven. There's got to be more below."
"They took him away (Bosch), with Gibson and Sarno and about a dozen others"
Wjhat I'm wondering about, in particular, is did the crew of the Iceni expect the Shivans?
Also, the use of 'took' implies that the Shivans pretty much snatched Bosch as part of their attack, rather than him going along cordially. I think that Bosch was fooled into believing the Shivans were going to be 'friendly', and expected all his crew to be taken with him - so he set the Iceni to self destruct after his departure, destroying the evidence. Except the Shivans surprised him by attacking immediately - they were unawares of the self destruct, so they proceeded to kill all the crew of the Iceni.
Incidentally, the message about 'casualties in the thousands' indicates that the Shivans were in the Iceni for a while - simply because the Iceni was a big ship, and they had a lot of killing to do.
any way you look at it, though, FS2 throws up more questions than answers. It's good from a modding perspective, but still a bit of a pain in the arse.
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well the shivans are quite good at killing it might not have taken long for a hand full of shivans to carve up a body count in the thousands
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Originally posted by Bobboau
well the shivans are quite good at killing it might not have taken long for a hand full of shivans to carve up a body count in the thousands
Well, based on the (scant) evidence from FS1, I'd still imagine you're talking at least 45minutes, probably longer - simply from the time it would take to travel. Not to mention the fact that the crew would fight like hell (dead Shivans - requires a lot of firepower to blow one up), and even assuming there's no automated defenses in the ship, like autogun turrets.
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Well, you and I know that, but how would the Shivans? Unless Bosch told them, "Oh, don't worry about them, they aren't really important. Besides, I'm going to blow this ship up after we leave."
In short this proves the Shivans understand command structure, authority, and a similar social structure to ours.
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that or they just went after the guy who sent the message...
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
that or they just went after the guy who sent the message...
Then they wouldn't have took Sarno, et al.
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IIRC, we never find out what exactly Gibosn and Sarno did on the Iceni - they might have been first and second officer or they might have been communications officers, or the chief/s of ETAK security, or engineers thtat designed ETAK, or whatever. Plus, the Shivans could have simply grabbed everyone in the room that Bosch happened to be in.
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and now Bosch is some Shivan's love slave:lol:
Seriously though, when Bosch communicated with the Shivans he was probably under the impression he would just walk off with them, but instead the Shivans just grabbed Bosch and threw him in a cargo container or something.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
Then they wouldn't have took Sarno, et al.
that still leaves gibson. WHAT ABOUT THE GIBSON?!?!?[/i]
:p
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
"Some possible explanations:
-They didn't have the right or enough resources to make a second."
Yeah, and Christina Aguilera is concert master in the New York Philiharmonic Orchestra. If they can build 110 Santhanas juggernauts, they can build as many Lucifers as they want.
"-The Lucifer costs allot of mulla (or resources) and since it can be destroyed in subspace it wouldn't be a great idea. Not to mention it would collapse nodes and may be bad in the long run for them."
As I said previously, if the bugs can field 110 Sathanases and purposely sacrifice them to destroy a star (talk about wasted resources), they can build plenty of Lucifers.
"-There are more but the shivans didn't want to or could not get them to the area in which FS2 happens fast enough."
They probably didn't want to.
"-They lost the plans."
Almost impossible.
"-The Lucifer's shields couldn't stop beams."
BINGO! Now that the GTVA has beams, the Lucifer's main defense is useless. Besides its Shivan Super Lasers, it has no real weapons, so the Colossus or even a couple of destroyers would rip it to pieces.
"-After contact with the terrans in Gamma Draconis, a Lucifer task force would not work."
They didn't want to bring out Lucifers against an adversary with beams. The Lucifer is nothing more than a terror weapon, and once it's shields are defeated, it's much less terrifying.
"-They just wanted to blow up the Cappella star. And that was their plan all along."
I don't think Lucifers would be big enough to accomodate the gravity-warping thingamabobs
"-A combo of these."
Read my explanations.
"And of course this opens up more questions like, 'Did the shivans have Sathanas during FS1?', 'Is the Sathanas main purpose to blow up stars?'"
The Sathanas is probably a different sort of terror weapon that the Shivans use when their enemy doesn't get the message the first time around. Its main purpose is to scare the **** out of other races and destroy their fleets as well (that's why it has FOUR BFReds).
WTF Is the about? mabe they don't use mammy! ever think of that they are I highly advanced race with the power to blow up a star for CRICE SAKE! AND AUBUVE ALL ELSS IT'S A GAME DON'T POUT LOGIC INTO IT!
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Originally posted by StarGunner
WTF Is the about? mabe they don't use mammy! ever think of that they are I highly advanced race with the power to blow up a star for CRICE SAKE! AND AUBUVE ALL ELSS IT'S A GAME DON'T POUT LOGIC INTO IT!
shut-up:rolleyes:....
Some people enjoy doing this.
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Originally posted by StarGunner
WTF Is the about? mabe they don't use mammy! ever think of that they are I highly advanced race with the power to blow up a star for CRICE SAKE! AND AUBUVE ALL ELSS IT'S A GAME DON'T POUT LOGIC INTO IT!
One question: Why should we listen to you when you can't spell 'above' (aubuve), 'put' (pout), and Christ (crice). And :wtf: is 'mammy'?
AND AUBUVE ALL ELSS IT'S A GAME DON'T POUT LOGIC INTO IT!
That's the fun part. BTW most games have some sort of real world stuff in it. And all games must have logic, if it didn't then it wouldn't be a game at all.
Also people, please get back on topic! the question was why the Shivans didn't use a Lucifer in FS2. Not how/why subspace works and some other things that were talked about.
StarGunner, for 814 posts you sure sound like a noob. :ick
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
IIRC, we never find out what exactly Gibosn and Sarno did on the Iceni - they might have been first and second officer or they might have been communications officers, or the chief/s of ETAK security, or engineers thtat designed ETAK, or whatever. Plus, the Shivans could have simply grabbed everyone in the room that Bosch happened to be in.
Sarno was an admiral..... probably in the upper echelons of NTF command, and he likely had his own ship. With Bosch's ETAK plans building to a head, and the Colossus tearing holes in their fleet, I'd imagine Bosch transferred his key staff to the Iceni.
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A thought...considering the high level of resistance, doesn't that suggest that there was some sort of higher-level tactical commander directing the Iceni's crew?
And if that's the case, wouldn't that suggest that Bosch tried to resist the Shivans, at least sometime after they boarded?
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I guess the most simple reason would be that the Lucifer is designed as a recon HQ vessel leading recon/scientific fleets which were not frontline combat units.
It would make sense in resolving the strange question of why Cains and Liliths all of a sudden had beams mounted on them in FS2 or why more advanced Shivan designs like the Ravana or the Rakshasas weren't whipped out in FS1.
In addition it could also conviently explain away the fact why the Lucifer her fleet managed to pop up in Ross and other places in FS1 where in FS2 the Shivians didn't and restricted their entry from the G. Draconis node. That being maybe those ships in FS1 were really just scientific vessels with special engines for unstable jump nodes. The Lucifer's fleet stumbled upon the the Humans and Vasudans going at it, deduced that they were primative monkeys who could be dispatched without calling in the military.
As for the shield issue...maybe they operate on a mothership idea and the military mothership just didn't show up in FS2?
Thats my stab at it. :blah:
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I think the Lucifer was the pride of the Shivan fleet: It had screwed and destroyed the Ancients and they intended to screw and destroy the Vasudans and Terrans. When it got blown in notexistence-somewhereotherplace, they said "screw 8000 year old technology..." and went all out making Sathanas. Then, being pissed, they went to show the Terrans they are not to be trifled with and blew Capella into the next universe. ;7
As for the origin of the Shivans, i once thought that they probably were a bio-bot race controlled by the Ancients who ran them under a mastermind bot. The bot was responsible for the portals and the military fleet, similar to the Roman Empire. Then the bots rebelled, and with the fleet at its desposal, destroyed the Ancient's civilization. When it was all over, the Shivans had a fleet but left it without upgrading it. When they encoutered the Terrans, they tried to wipe them out without using the main force. Read the rest above.