Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: TopAce on June 22, 2003, 09:19:47 am
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I am continously having doubts about the usage of tactical weapons. How often do you use tactical weapons and which? I find them weak, and their effect is not always 'advantage bringer'. Like the Morning Star, it pushes the hit craft quickly away, but it also increases the distance between you and the other, and this makes the craft unhittable sometimes. Lamprey is good against shields, but has no effect on anything else etc.
Please vote!
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I wouldn't count the ahkerton with the other tactical weapons. If you are disabling a small craft you have no choice but to use it or you'll end up blowing the ship up.
I pretty much ignore the others.
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The Morning Star is okay when you are facing really small and fast things like Dragons and is one of the best multiplayer weapons, but not very good otherwise. In the main campaign it is the only effective weapon you get aside from the Subach for a couple of missions however so I use it there. The Circe is only any good in connection with the Maxim, but this combination can be quite powerful. The Lamprey is completely useless in singleplayer and is best used in multiplayer TvT or dogfight games only. As for the Akheton, same thing as karajorma for me; it is good in missions where you have to disable things without destroying them.
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I think tactical weapons are pretty neat... I always tended to focus on the most powerful weapon possible (usually the Kayser IIRC), but stuff like the Lamprey really come into their own in combination - i.e. slowing a ship to a halt, then firing off a hornet.
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Originally posted by CP5670
The Morning Star is okay when you are facing really small and fast things like Dragons and is one of the best multiplayer weapons, but not very good otherwise. In the main campaign it is the only effective weapon you get aside from the Subach for a couple of missions however so I use it there. The Circe is only any good in connection with the Maxim, but this combination can be quite powerful. The Lamprey is completely useless in singleplayer and is best used in multiplayer TvT or dogfight games only. As for the Akheton, same thing as karajorma for me; it is good in missions where you have to disable things without destroying them.
I would only further emphasise the value of the Maxim and Circe combination. It is the most versatile and useful loadout I know.
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So uh, what's not tactical about the Kayser or Maxim? or both? ;7
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Maxim and Kayser are designed to just plain destroy things. Tactical weapons are meant to do other stuff.
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Name once weapon better than the Maxim for disable capship subsystems. You can completely disarm a ship in less than 3 minutes thus rendering it a really big target.
The only ship this doesn't apply to is the Sath, and it's really just an unbalancer because the GTVA has got better ships over all, the Sath's Neutronium hull is it only major advantage.
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:wtf: Neutronium hull? Where did you get that?
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Somehow I don't see the effectiveness of the Morning Star. It has low damage, but good rate of fire.
Why is the Lamprey useless? Great to disable shields in the stages of a campaign, when Circe or Kaysers are not available. I like it. It is also good to minimize the target's weapons and engine power(also usable against the Ai!)
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
So uh, what's not tactical about the Kayser or Maxim? or both? ;7
Tactical weapons are to do low damage instead, it has another use, like disabling subsystems, distrupt targeting(disables aspect-locking on bombers, etc.) or any other non-destructive roles.
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Morning Star is terrific on defensive missions. Perfect for harassing bombers at long range, weakening their shields, slowing their advance, making them lose target lock. Then you can use its fire rate and range to shoot down any bombs they manage to squeeze off.
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has anyone ever played with an EMP cannon (modded of corse), those things are great for holding off bombers, BWO as one that's good against shields and subsystems as well as keeping you're victom from paying atention to anything for long
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hell yeah! one of my favorite weaps is the EMP torpedo!! :D
I love the sound it makes as it streaks off towards the offending bomb then plays with its head :)
it's funny to see a torpedo floating in space doing nothing
bob
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Surely, MS has many practical uses in Multi/TvT.
I mainly use it to:
-prevent opponents from acquiring aspect locks from distance
-distract incoming primary/tempest fire (unless it's an erin with dual kaysers+temps :) )
-stop those annoying faster/more maneuverable fighters flying circles around me (it's hard to get the first shot in, though :) )
The whole idea of HercII/multi would be wrecked without MS, IMO.
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The Circe is my favorite because it works sooooo well in combination with the Maxim. Extremely effective against Nephilims and Seraphims--they're dead before they can get anywhere near you.
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I actually take the Kayser over the Circe. For 1 less shield damage, you get 6 hull damage and IIRC, eats less power. That and if you don't want to use the Maxim at the moment, you can switch it off and still be able to kill things.
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Don't have a look at 'Level x Shield damage' It is not done so fine, doesn't show the true effectiveness of a weapon.
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IIRC the Circe has MUCH greater range than the Kayser.
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What's IIRC?
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IIRC = if I recall
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I join you on that one, although I have a rough guess.
Anyway what the hack is IIRC?
IMHO and BTW are at least close to the spoken languange, but IIRC? I could grasp them with little ETA, but I don't seem to catch IIRC ASAP.
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Uhhhh....
No comment...:wtf:
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
IIRC the Circe has MUCH greater range than the Kayser.
But compare their power. It is sure the Circe is good against shields, but with Kaysers we can kill.
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ungh...I see, well you manage to learn smg. new every once in a while.
BTW IIRC the maxim had a way longer range than the Kayser, so a Circe-Maxim combo owns...on the other hand a Maxim-Kayser combo is the ultimate bomber/fighter killer.
I checked the weapons.tbl
The Maxim has the longest range and greates speed in terms of projectile velocity, so it's the best bomb-catcher and is good against the bomber's hull, the Morning Star has a slightly lower range and half the speed. They have the same ROF. The maxim eats more energy.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
IIRC the Circe has MUCH greater range than the Kayser.
it couldn't be by that much. Besides, I fly with a game pad, so I can't hit anything further than 600m anyway.
and flaser. ':rolleyes: '
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
..., I fly with a game pad, so I can't hit anything further than 600m anyway.
Why aren't you changing to keyboard or buy a joy?
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Originally posted by Flaser
.... They have the same ROF. The maxim eats more energy.
Evident, the Maxim is far stronger in any field(except shield damage?).
Who can aim well with the Maxim? It's 'shaking' effect' disturbs me very much, this is a reason I edited its TBL info, and erased the 'esuck' flag. It became immediatly usefull.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Uhhhh....
No comment...:wtf:
IIRC :p not everyone is from an English/American:rolleyes: speaking country.
BTW there is no such thing as UCGAI :ick (Ultimate Compulsory Guide to Abbreviations on the Internet).
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Keyboard = teh Ghey.
Joy = i actually ordered one off Half.com for 9 bucks a week ago, s it should be here tommarow or the day after. w00t.
Flaser: you seemed to know about the other abbreviations. And there are quite a few abbreviation guides out there, just look around.
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Originally posted by Flaser
IIRC :p not everyone is from an English/American:rolleyes: speaking country.
....
Yeah, true! Give up speaking 'advanced' English!:thepimp:
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Originally posted by TopAce
Evident, the Maxim is far stronger in any field(except shield damage?).
Who can aim well with the Maxim? It's 'shaking' effect' disturbs me very much, this is a reason I edited its TBL info, and erased the 'esuck' flag. It became immediatly usefull.
It does not actually make your aim wander off target it merrly sakes the cockpit, so it's only disturbing, but not realistic at all.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Keyboard = teh Ghey.
Joy = i actually ordered one off Half.com for 9 bucks a week ago, s it should be here tommarow or the day after. w00t.
Flaser: you seemed to know about the other abbreviations. And there are quite a few abbreviation guides out there, just look around.
KT I knew quite a few, but they are popping up everywhere like lemmings during the season, and each every community seems to have their own ones.
BTW I know there are quite a few guides, but for reasons mentioned above, they are never all powerful ect.
As for advanced English, TopAce I have to disagree.
Abbrevs are there fore a reason, and IIRC most of them are cornerpoints of a text, though they shouldn't be overused.
As for "aeadvancead" "Einglish" I agree that things shouldn't be made different just for the sake of coolness or making things sound more techno-jumbo that some people seem to be in love with.
PS: Anyone interested in writting a true UCGAI?
Hmm...I wonder how that one would fit in like: UCGAI-ing I L|k to... no, no... what about a noun:then I found the UCGAI for that term....err...no...
...
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FYI, we should all STFU about abbreviations and get back OT.
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Are you trying to be extremely Ironic, or does it just come out that way?
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Originally posted by Flaser
....As for advanced English, TopAce I have to disagree....
És ha elkezdenek hipertájszólással írni? 'Pistabá, nemlássa, hogy ilfogyott a sír? Amúgy is íleg rízeg vaty!'
Sorry, this is off-topic. Ignore me, only for Flaser and perhaps Grunt if he will have a look at in. It's about my point of advanced English. I am guarding those who have pretty few chance to understand so 'special' expressions and shortenings.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Are you trying to be extremely Ironic, or does it just come out that way?
I was trying to extract the last bit of humor from a dead joke.
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I meant both of you. :blah:
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Originally posted by TopAce
Evident, the Maxim is far stronger in any field(except shield damage?).
Who can aim well with the Maxim? It's 'shaking' effect' disturbs me very much, this is a reason I edited its TBL info, and erased the 'esuck' flag. It became immediatly usefull.
Yeah, as Flaser said, it's just the HUD shaking. Once I get used to it, I find I aim just as effectively as before. I like the Maxim in certain situations. If I have a mission with lots of cruisers or spaced out bomber attacks, I'll make sure to equip the Maxim if possible. I can knock out bombs from two klicks fairly easily, even WITH the shaking.
My thought on tactical weapons is that they're pretty much useless. The MS IS handy when I suspect Dragons, but other than that... If I'm bored and the mission is tough, and this particular combo is allowed, I just use an Ares or Erinyes with both banks populated by Kaysers. Yeah, the energy drain is extremely high, but it's managable when you fire in carefully aimed bursts and remember to tweak the energy allocations.
My two cents.
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Though the Kayser's so powerful that sometimes I believe it's a cheat, and I believe it's use should be reduced in most campaigns or a new series of ships should be used - this actually puts the tone on agility and speed rather than sheer protection.
BTW TopAce: Nem azt mondtam, hogy mindenki úgy ferdítse a nyelvet ahogy akarja, hanem azt, hogy egyes rövidítések elterjedtek és jól használhatók, de nem a nyelv rovására. Az utóbbit én is ellenzem.
To Everyone Else: I just commented that I agree with the use of some abbrevs, but not to transform English.
Enough of this back to the topic!
What bugs me about FS-Open is how it changes the ships ability to mount all kinds of weapons.
On the other hand it has a principle that could be converted into something cool:
A critical slot/energy drain system where you have the chance to put all kinds of very powerfull weapons onto your craft, but you'll have to deal with a range of disadvantages for each one - say high drain/low ROF/Heat*.
You would have certain number of slots and each weapon would occupy a certain number of slots.
The whole system could be similar to ones used in Mech Warrior.
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Originally posted by Flaser
Though the Kayser's so powerful that sometimes I believe it's a cheat...
It consumes very much energy therefore. This balances(and sometimes) reduces its effectiveness in dogfight. The worst thing is that you are waiting for your generators to reproduce lost power, and to be able to fire again. And ever worse if you are using laser energy to transfer it into lost shield energy(I use this, and this is a reason I would prefer the Prom S or the Subach to the Kaysers.)
It is really 'aseffectiveasgod'srage :D' onboard an Erinyes, or a Myrmidon, if you can aim well, and you can release your fingers off the fire button, Kaysers can be ideal.
Attacking cruiser with Kaysers eh? Somehow not my style.
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The Maxim is pretty much the only viable anti-capship primary wepapon for anything tougher than a Leviathan or a Lilith.
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Originally posted by Flaser
The Maxim is pretty much the only viable anti-capship primary wepapon for anything tougher than a Leviathan or a Lilith.
Above the Lev or the Lilith, there are the corvettes, which have the 'big damage' flag, which means they don't inflict damages from lasers, and weaker warheads. This is one of the stupidest thing in FS2. In FS1, If I wished, I could destroy even a Demon destroyer alone. Of course, before I disabled its weapon subsystem and destroyed its upper/downer heavy turret(They had the Shivan Megafunk, in FS2, they are LReds.)
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Originally posted by TopAce
Above the Lev or the Lilith, there are the corvettes, which have the 'big damage' flag, which means they don't inflict damages from lasers, and weaker warheads. This is one of the stupidest thing in FS2. In FS1, If I wished, I could destroy even a Demon destroyer alone. Of course, before I disabled its weapon subsystem and destroyed its upper/downer heavy turret(They had the Shivan Megafunk, in FS2, they are LReds.)
So you're saying FS2 is stupid cause it won't let you destroy a 2km long ship armed with the puny lasers on a 30m ship :lol:
Frankly I think it's the other way round that is stupid. Capships are meant to be these huge monsters killable only by lots of bombing or something else their size. To be able to kill one with a single fighter is just plain ridiculous.
Everyone complains about the end of Silent Threat being stupid and you think we should have more missions like that? :D
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But if hundreds of fighters are firing upon a Moloch with Kayser, or Prometheus, and in addition some hornet swarms(which are good against hull), the Moloch has no chance to survive regardless its size. Corvettes are no as big as we can call it a 'monster'.
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Originally posted by TopAce
But if hundreds of fighters are firing upon a Moloch with Kayser, or Prometheus, and in addition some hornet swarms(which are good against hull), the Moloch has no chance to survive regardless its size. Corvettes are no as big as we can call it a 'monster'.
There already was a thread that dealt with this among with a new damage model.
The suggestion was adding certain armor factors to ships.
I think we could use some D&D statistics to calculate damage:
say you fire a prom with a damage around 20-multply that with a factor between 0 to 1,1.
If the result is lower than 0,1 the shot does not do any damage at all - if it's 1.1 you hit something very sensitive, so the damage should be doubled, tripled or the blow the system in question.
The later would happen if the shot passed another "roll" and still archieved 1.1 so it would be like 1 in a 1000 to make chances realistic.
Furthermore all the ships should have an armor factor that gets substacted from the multyplied damage - so with a puny laser you'd do some real damage only once in while.
Armor could have a damage absorption ratio - an certain percent of the damage would be substracted from each shot.
This percentage on the other hand would do damage, only it would be substracted from the armor rather than the ships hull or the subsystem.
So in the long term, if you keep pounding a part of the ship, it would inflict more and more damage.
Subobjects shouldn't behave like this.
The later would be hard to achieve - the ships' surface would have to be divided into roughly equal surfaces.
If we used poly the problem would be their size - some are too big, and even assigning a bigger value wouldn't counter that, so it's gona be a hard task.
Moreover certain parts of the ship could contain only a "part of the ship's hull". So the total ammount of hull in percentages dispersed across the hull would refer to around 120-200 percentage of the total hull, so destroying certain parts of a ship would kill it, while it would make do with a blown section.
This could be easier to implement using invisible subsystems containing the ship's hull.
All suggestions are definilty SCP projects, though the first one is only a minor coding issue - I "guess".
The later two are a hell a lot of problem:
-A system could be developed to automatically divide the surface of a ship into equal sections.
-Same goes for hull.
-Both should be controlable. The data should be stored separatly for the sake of backward compabitliy.
-It could be a pain in the *** to do existing models.
-Existing models could be modified - even bigger pain in ***...
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Originally posted by TopAce
Yeah, true! Give up speaking 'advanced' English!:thepimp:
To qoute from one of my classes this year
"Anacronyms are a compressed foreign language for second lagnuage users"
And; IIRC == "If I Remember Correctly"
It took me ages to work out what some of these meant..........
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I personally dont use tactical weapons :ick. If anything, the Aketon maybe for disabling ships. My normal loadout for the Erin is a Kayser and a Maxim.. maxim for the cruisers, kayser for the fighters... best combo possible period. For the Herc II i bring two kaysers... easier to handle on the smaller ship.:D
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Tactical weapons suck(Except stiletto missiles).
Kayser's better than the Maxim too.
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no kayser can rip down a Cain or Rakshasa cruiser faster than a maxim. They both are good at something. Kayser at fighters and bombers, Maxim at cruisers and corvettes when in greater numbers.
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Doesn't this combination deplete your generators as quickly as hell?
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www.acronymfinder.com
ph34r me. :D
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A strange website ... but good
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Stiletto missiles at close range are fantastic. Particularly for multiplayer. Don't like a guy? Ram 'im, burn his ship with a missile or two, and leave him sitting there while you move on to other targets.:D
Morningstar is good against interceptors- while they're being knocked around out of control they aren't evading your shots, so if you go all out with Morningstar and missiles you can take 'em out in no time.
I think I recall a game I flew against somebody where we were both fitted with Akethons, and ended up disabling each other and sitting dead in space where we juuust couldn't take potshots at one another. That's about all my experience with the thing.
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Nobody likes the Lamprey? I think it is a good stuff, it's sure not as better as the Circe against shields, but it can absorb the energies of hostile engines ans lasers. Pair it with the Kayser or Prometheus and you get a quite acceptable arsenal.
Personally, I like the Lamprey, despite I voted 'I never use Tact weapons'. Sometimes I force myself to drag the icon of the Lamprey to one of the banks of my fighter.
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I like putting a Lamprey on one of my wingmen, then ordering that wingman to cover me. It's fabulous for getting those Shivans off your tail while you can concentrate on your objectives.
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
I like putting a Lamprey on one of my wingmen, then ordering that wingman to cover me. It's fabulous for getting those Shivans off your tail while you can concentrate on your objectives.
At last a man who is using the Lamprey for something!
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Originally posted by TopAce
At last a man who is using the Lamprey for something!
Maybe people find the Lamprey so useless because Shivan primaries suck so much balls that it doesn't really matter whether they can fire them or not. I've actually used Shivan primaries myself with the DreadFul Shivans mod, and they are CRAP. I'd take the Subach over a Shivan primary any day--Shivan lasers fire about once every 10 million years, do about zero damage, and have high energy drain.
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The problem is, they were pretty damn impressive in FS1, but they hadn't changed since then. And considering how fighters in FS2 are about as tough as the ****ing FreeSpace capships, what with the big friggin' shields and all, that's pretty bad.
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Agreed.
The only tactical weapon I usually use is the Stiletto II - I use it to knock beam turrets off cruisers and annoy bombers.
The Akheton is obviously essential to disable fighters and small ships, but pretty pointless unless you need it to complete objectives.
The Circe is powerful, but it's too slow to hit Astaroths or Dragons with, and coupled with a Maxim sucks way too much power for my liking.
The Lamprey is useless to the player, but handy to give to wingmen (as GE said).
My personal favourite loadout is an Ares, with a Maxim in the top bank, a Prometheus S in the bottom one (the one with 4 mounts), a bank of Trebuchets and a bank of Harpoons. Use the Trebs and Maxim for twatting capships, and the Prometheus for fighters, bombers and transports - it has better range, speed and power drain than a Kayser, with not much difference in damage. I'd take Kaysers on an interceptor, though....
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ive never used the lamprey and never will. Why do you need a weapon that merely drains the enemy's power when you can have a weapon that destroys them in 2-5 hits. It might be useful against a cruiser with beams but then again.. thats what a maxim is for.
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Lamprey has no affect on larger ships. I think, but I have never examined it.
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Kayser/Maxim combo uses way too much energy to be effective in multiplayer, MS/Maxim it becomes more managable. And it is not fun when I can't aim at my opponent because I keep getting pushed backwords while spinning.
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Yeah, several ones use the Morning Star at PXO. And severals do not modify their weapons at all. I had a dogfight opponent with Horus, 2 banks of Prom R, and Hornets. I had a Perseus with double Prom S, and double Tempest.
Guess who won ....
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The Horus is the most underrated interceptor in FS2 'cause it can't carry the heavier weapons.
On the other hand it is the deadliest IMHO.
It was the fastest and almost best armed (in terms of number of guns) interceptor of its time.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
So uh, what's not tactical about the Kayser or Maxim? or both? ;7
depends on the situation.
if there is an enemy bomber squadron 3K away from your destroyer and closing, it would be very tactical to use a kaiser/maxim and put really big holes in them.
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Originally posted by Havock
....use a kaiser/maxim and put really big holes in them.
putting holes in the hull of the enemy is NOT the task of tactical weapons. They are destructive weapon, even it appears quite funny to call a Subach HL-7 destructive.
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Originally posted by TopAce
putting holes in the hull of the enemy is NOT the task of tactical weapons. They are destructive weapon, even it appears quite funny to call a Subach HL-7 destructive.
but it can be a very tactical decision :D
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Originally posted by TopAce
putting holes in the hull of the enemy is NOT the task of tactical weapons. They are destructive weapon, even it appears quite funny to call a Subach HL-7 destructive.
Do you know what's even funnier? You just called the ML-16 a destructive weapon! The fucking ML-16 LASER!:lol:
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Personally, I find the Morningstar quite useful, best way to keep someone busy and harmless. As for the others, just keep in mind that they have their purposes and those purposes aren't always straight up destroy ;)
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I have no problem with the MS, just if it were a bit more useful against hull, that would be good.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Do you know what's even funnier? You just called the ML-16 a destructive weapon! The ****************ing ML-16 LASER!:lol:
it is.
as long as there are no shields covering the targe't, it does some "fair" damage.
the morningstar is handy, yeah.
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not just handy! its the most powerful primaries on PXO!
(with a good pilot using it) it can stop an opponet dead or shoot them backwards. Meanwile he pumps Tornados and tempests into you while you are totaly helpless.........
it also has a fast fireing rate
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Originally posted by Drew
not just handy! its the most powerful primaries on PXO!
(with a good pilot using it) it can stop an opponet dead or shoot them backwards. Meanwile he pumps Tornados and tempests into you while you are totaly helpless.........
it also has a fast fireing rate
as well as being a complete pain in the ass for the receiving end.
and you can club em againt obstacles.
give a sathanas some new paintwork :devil:
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No doubt the MS has a good tactical usage, but it's damage is still low and this makes it non-ideal for using in the single player part against the Ai.
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It is the best bomber interceptor weapon for anything that can't carry the maxim.
It is the BEST fighter interceptor weapon.
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I would rather destroy a bomber/fighter with double kaysers or Proms rather than using the MS to pull them back. Honestly said, it is really a good one, but sometimes it brings disadvantages. For example you pull the enemy fighter out of the firing range and that quickly that you cannot hit it.
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Originally posted by TopAce
For example you pull the enemy fighter out of the firing range and that quickly that you cannot hit it.
Unless you've got a pair of Trebuchets with their name on it. ;7
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Unless you've got a pair of Trebuchets with their name on it. ;7
I meant laser cannons. The maxim would be ideal, the MS can bring down the shields, and the maxim the hull, but then your generator would be depleted.