Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: mikhael on December 20, 2001, 06:11:00 pm
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I'm converting one of my models for Warlock. I'm wondering what are some basic guidlines for ships in FS?
I'm assuming that noplanar polys aren't allowed, but should the polys be purely triangles or can I have quadrangles? How about polys with more than four points?
Should the mesh be closed? Are polys allowed to overlap? Can they be coplanar/collocated? Should a mesh be a single object, or can it be multiple subobjects?
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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you can have as many edges per poly you want, but then the poly must be a perfectly plane mesh.
No intersecting poly, never!
open meshes should work, but I don't really see what could be the use of that (well, that's up to you anyway).
A mesh can be multiple subobjects if you want.
Poly and vertice limit per subobject, about 820.
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What are u modeling for?
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Originally posted by venom2506:
you can have as many edges per poly you want, but then the poly must be a perfectly plane mesh.
No intersecting poly, never!
open meshes should work, but I don't really see what could be the use of that (well, that's up to you anyway).
A mesh can be multiple subobjects if you want.
Poly and vertice limit per subobject, about 820.
Open meshes allow you to get rid of lots of hidden polygons. I dropped nearly a thousand polys just by making the meshes open. That's at least half a modelling issue and half an optimization issue though.
Do these rules change for capships at all?
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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Originally posted by mikhael:
Open meshes allow you to get rid of lots of hidden polygons. I dropped nearly a thousand polys just by making the meshes open. That's at least half a modelling issue and half an optimization issue though.
Do these rules change for capships at all?
yeah, both capships and fighters.
Btw, I see your point with open meshes, but wouldn't that work only with intersecting polys? Otherwise, when a model has too many polys, I'm obliged to break it into multiple smaller ojects, obviously, that makes open meshes (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif).
edit: just moved the text out of the quote part (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
[This message has been edited by venom2506 (edited 12-21-2001).]
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Originally posted by untouchable:
What are u modeling for?
You'd have to ask Warlock. I'm just tryin gto make the mesh low poly enough and high detail enough to look good when he does whatever he's going to do with it.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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Check the siggy for the project info (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by Warlock:
Check the siggy for the project info (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
Seeing several Waterdancers in formation with the Helven-D will be groovy. *Grin*
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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That was my first plan (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
Then one docking with Dunbar Station
then.......well...wait for the demo (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/smile.gif)
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make the hull out of one subobject
I would stay away from open meshes as much as posable
make the hull out of one subobject
try to make it out of triangles but you don't have to (but it looks beter if you make it out of triangles, and one subobject)
make the hull out of one subobject
polys shouldn't be in front of other polys (not big ones anyway)
and make the hull out of one subobject
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Bobboau, bringing you products that work.............. in theory
[This message has been edited by Bobboau (edited 12-20-2001).]
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Originally posted by Bobboau:
make the hull out of one subobject
I would stay away from open meshes as much as posable
make the hull out of one subobject
try to make it out of triangles but you don't have to (but it looks beter if you make it out of triangles, and one subobject)
make the hull out of one subobject
polys shouldn't be in front of other polys (not big ones anyway)
and make the hull out of one subobject
I'm sensing... perhaps... Should the hull be more than one subobject?
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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Alot of the old school MODders swear by it. Honestly I've got a few caps with multiple subs for the hull and had no troubles,..I could see how it could be a problem with the game's engine.
I'd say a case of "safe or sorry" (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/biggrin.gif)
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There are possible clipping probs with multiple sub-objects - the engine doesn't know which to draw first - you can see this (a little bit) on the Deimos turrets at the base.
As above, the limits are (roughly) 850 polys per sub-object, with (I think) a max limit of 5000 for all LODs.
It's a good idea to triangulate all the model faces - otherwise you can get texture 'oozing', and some flythrough faces (where curved).
Also avoid booleans like the plague, I've had some probs with this thanks to intersecting places (as stated above).
I think there is a limit for 'points per face' of 20 - I believe it was mentioned on IPAndrews tutorial.
Hope that's helpful.
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Also avoid booleans like the plague, I've had some probs with this thanks to intersecting places (as stated above).
i know what u are talking about, ehehehh
....... don't use booleans expexially when the intersecting meshes aren't planar... i mean....if u use booleans with a sphere for example, you will find that about a 70% of the intersecting faces aren't recognized by the game....
i've found an interesting way to solve this problem with ts5.... i create the models to be unified with booleans separately, and i apply the booleans when the two objects have no junction point, then i select one of the objects as a group of face and move it in position. As result there will be intersection between some faces...i still have to test this in game but with FRED it works fine...VERY fine since it allows me to reduce the number of polys and more important to avoid almost all the problem that booleans usually generates.
others told me that the same can be done with other 3d programs like 3ds in easyer ways...
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bah, you can make the hull more of one subobject: if it had more before and you brak it into subparts, then, you won't have clipping (maybe sahring same vert coordinates on the intersecting points help, dunno).
For boolean, I tend to avoid it at much has possible, tho my Tau capships are done out of that. You just have to be ready to weld a lot of useless verts, and delete many polys that should have disappeard insinde the model and haven't, plus (the worst) polys that don't have even been cut by the operation, you delete a vertice inside the moel and boum! it's a whole side of the mesh that disapears (only choice, creating a new poly by hand)... Who said modelling was easy? d'uh (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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I built the Molly without booleans, almost entirely polygon by polygon. I'm doing the same for the Waterdancer rebuild. Along the way, I'm still removing useless vertices, two-point polys, and the like. I think alot of people just use booleans or whatever, without a concious idea of what using them entails.
When I look at the Waterdancer's original mesh, the one made in Truespace, using booleans, I'm utterly shocked that the geometry doesn't crash the renderer. Its honestly sick and painful to look at. I must have pulled 200 hidden polygons out of the main fuselage alone. There were these seemingly random bits of model just floating in the middle, serving no purpose, except to show the scars of misapplied booleans.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
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when I was using 3ds3, I was building my ships triangle by triangle. Was damn long, but at least, you have control at 100% on the mesh.
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I really should learn to model one of these days LOL
ts4.2
3ds max r3
Rhino 3d
Ya think I could model a box or something by now at least lmao
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Originally posted by Warlock:
I really should learn to model one of these days LOL
ts4.2
3ds max r3
Rhino 3d
Ya think I could model a box or something by now at least lmao
I've been after you for how long to start using MAX? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
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Hey I started using it (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/tongue.gif)
That's what I've been doing my planetary back drops in,..I just can't MODEL anything lmao
Course in max I'm STILL learning how to get myself around in it lol
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What the Hell! DOn't you guys have the 'Undo' option??
I have no choice! I don't have bullions, splines or anything other than Box, cycilnder, Shpere, Geosphere and face and vertex to use to creat my ships. (in generating anyway)
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Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER:
What the Hell! DOn't you guys have the 'Undo' option??
I have no choice! I don't have bullions, splines or anything other than Box, cycilnder, Shpere, Geosphere and face and vertex to use to creat my ships. (in generating anyway)
Of course we have undo. That's not the point. Booleans are unpredictable, and worse, can be damaging in ways that are not apparent at first. You can't undo back past a save-shutdown-sleep-powerup-load sequence, can you?
Booleans, as they are implemented in most 3d modellers are broken in subtle and not so subtle ways. Just say no, man.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
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Originally posted by venom2506:
when I was using 3ds3, I was building my ships triangle by triangle. Was damn long, but at least, you have control at 100% on the mesh.
No kidding..! But how damn long did it take you to model those ships? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/eek.gif)
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Originally posted by Setekh:
No kidding..! But how damn long did it take you to model those ships? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/eek.gif)
a good full couple of days, from early morning to late evening, w/o mapping
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Originally posted by venom2506:
when I was using 3ds3, I was building my ships triangle by triangle. Was damn long, but at least, you have control at 100% on the mesh.
Pretty much the same way do then....start off with a box, extrude till I get the desired result. (don't trust booleans atall, and I can't figure out working 3d Max3, anyway)....I used to build ships dimension by dimension.... get the side planar view done, then the top, and then tweak the front.
Only takes 1/2 hours - I think the longest was 3 hours - to build the ship model.
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Originally posted by Setekh:
No kidding..! But how damn long did it take you to model those ships? (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/eek.gif)
That's the way I've done all my ships in Rhino3D... triangle by triangle. If I have an idea of what I want, it usually takes me a few hours to get the basic shape, with another 2-3 hours of fine-tuning.
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Originally posted by aldo_14:
Pretty much the same way do then....start off with a box, extrude till I get the desired result. (don't trust booleans atall, and I can't figure out working 3d Max3, anyway)....I used to build ships dimension by dimension.... get the side planar view done, then the top, and then tweak the front.
Only takes 1/2 hours - I think the longest was 3 hours - to build the ship model.
I used to use the 'extruded primatives' method. It never quite gave me the shape I wanted, though. When I started using Lightwave instead of Truespace, I found that creating points by hand, then stringing polygons on those points, made for a more satisfying over all model. When you have an idea of what you're after, this doesn't really take that long. The Waterdancer is a good example of this: the original model took me a very long time using extrusions and booleans in Truespace. In Lightwave, rebuilding the whole thing from scratch took only 6hrs (broken down to 2hrs of modelling, 4hrs of tweaking and detailing).
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
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Hehe, I still don't even know what a boolian is...
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Booleans are a method by which objects are combined to make new objects.
A snowman can be thought of as a boolean addition of three spheres of snow.
Pizza missing a slice can be thought of as the result of subtracting a triangle from a circle.
There is another kind of boolean called 'union'. That's where you take two objects and you overlap them and keep only the part where they overlap. I can't think of a convenient way to visualize that one right now.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM
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Originally posted by mikhael:
Booleans are a method by which objects are combined to make new objects.
A snowman can be thought of as a boolean addition of three spheres of snow.
Pizza missing a slice can be thought of as the result of subtracting a triangle from a circle.
There is another kind of boolean called 'union'. That's where you take two objects and you overlap them and keep only the part where they overlap. I can't think of a convenient way to visualize that one right now.
Actually...booleans do kind of have a point in modelling... boolean subtract is good for making debris.... and if you union a (very large) cube with a triangulated object (in TS), it removes the triangulation... which is a good way to start reducing your lod detail.
I can;t really explain union either... it's like it keeps the common parts of the 2 objects being unioned. Kind of like 2 overlapping circles - unioning would only keep the bit where they overlap.
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Originally posted by aldo_14:
Actually...booleans do kind of have a point in modelling... boolean subtract is good for making debris.... and if you union a (very large) cube with a triangulated object (in TS), it removes the triangulation... which is a good way to start reducing your lod detail.
...
I detriangulate by hitting the 'unify' button on the Modify tab of LW's Modeller. (http://dynamic.gamespy.com/~freespace/ubb/noncgi/wink.gif) That merges all coplanar adjacent polygons. The only place I use booleans now is for the creation of asteroids. Nothing beats booleans for screwing up a surface so much it looks like its been in space for a billion billion years.
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--Mik
http://www.404error.com
ruhkferret on ICQ/AIM