Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => The Modding Workshop => Topic started by: TopAce on July 02, 2003, 12:51:48 pm
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Which is the most boring part of designing a misison?
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Background, definitely. I've never done my own background for a mission I've released - it's just too cumbersome. Copy and paste. :nod:
Bug fixing is annoying, but not boring.
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I still consider myself pretty new to fredding, so I have trouble with some stuff still, and trouble = boring to me. So it depends on how well i'm doing, but I must say making Message Sexps and Breifings and Debreifings I find are the most boring.
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Writing millions of trivial but still neccessary messages are annoying (I refuse to use the built-in ones), but it's the testing and bug-fixing that does my head in. Playing the same ****ing mission over and over, to test a feature that's at the very end... aaarg :hopping:
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Events and directives. *snore*
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Writing millions of trivial but still neccessary messages are annoying (I refuse to use the built-in ones), but it's the testing and bug-fixing that does my head in. Playing the same ****ing mission over and over, to test a feature that's at the very end... aaarg :hopping:
Testing it is the fun part, unless DirectX blows up and forces you to restart your computer.:mad:
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Testing and bugfixing.. with everything else there is a much greater creative element... how can I tweak the background to suit the ambience of the mission? How can I set the mood with briefings and in-game messages? What nifty things can I do with events?
Bugfixing, however, normally involves playing through the mission again and again, normally for a problem at the end.
:nod:
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Woolie, you seem to have the whole lot backwards. Testing the same mission over and over is mind-numbing, where as directives and events are where you do the clever, creative stuff.
Unless you're winding me up. Which I doubt.
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Maybe because my soon-to-be released mission, the only decent one I've ever made so far (probably because it's the only one I've really put a lot of effort into--it took 20 days to make), is fun for me to play even after the 1000000th time. Either that or I've got a warped sense of fun (maybe I do since I'm such a big fan of the game Blood). Or both.
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OK, who vote-bumped it?
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Woolie, you seem to have the whole lot backwards. Testing the same mission over and over is mind-numbing, where as directives and events are where you do the clever, creative stuff.
Unless you're winding me up. Which I doubt.
The clever, creative stuff is a ***** to make with all those damned sexps (my mission is a relatively simple furball and it must have 15-20 events)
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
OK, who vote-bumped it?
Why would ask such a question about a thread that's only a few hours old at most?
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
OK, who vote-bumped it?
No one. It just looks exactly the same as the previous topic :lol:
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That'll be it, then, I thought from the date that it was from the 2nd of Feb, but I'd forgotten that Americans like their dates backwards.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
The clever, creative stuff is a ***** to make with all those damned sexps (my mission is a relatively simple furball and it must have 15-20 events)
Oh, I see. You're not an ambitious FREDder, then. My mistake. I, er, look forward to playing your mission.
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Sometimes I find something interesting while FREDing, this is always changing day by day, sometimes, I am in the Background editor all day :) , sometimes, I would want to edit the background ... I press SHIFT, but has no force and mood to press I, too.
I hate doing complicated SEXPs, especially in the debriefing, testing it is even more nervous killer when it is not working than playing bearbaiting on Insane, when at the start I send all my wingmen home. (Who doesn't want to go home, I shoot 'im down, that's another topic):D
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Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Oh, I see. You're not an ambitious FREDder, then. My mistake. I, er, look forward to playing your mission.
I still put in lots of events because I need them to make a good mission. I don't understand what exactly you mean by "ambitious". I do put in events, I just don't particulary enjoy it, because it is slow and tedious work. And don't make judgements on my mission before you play it.
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Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
That'll be it, then, I thought from the date that it was from the 2nd of Feb, but I'd forgotten that Americans like their dates backwards.
I think it is you who have your dates backwards. Then again, we're talking about the same country who pronounces the E in "coupe" with a horrible-sounding French acute accent (It's 'coop', not 'coo-pay').
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
I think it is you who have your dates backwards. Then again, we're talking about the same country who pronounces the E in "coupe" with a horrible-sounding French acute accent (It's 'coop', not 'coo-pay').
Watch it, you're gonna get flamed...even by an American such as myself.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
I think it is you who have your dates backwards. Then again, we're talking about the same country who pronounces the E in "coupe" with a horrible-sounding French acute accent (It's 'coop', not 'coo-pay').
shut the fuck up already. Everyone knows australia is the backward country, so stop being an idiot.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
shut the fuck up already. Everyone knows australia is the backward country, so stop being an idiot.
That advice also referred to the British, who are backward but don't know it.
EDIT: To prevent any flamewars, I would like you to know that I am not being serious at all and I don't actually mean this stuff. Except maybe the part about the British not realizing how backwards they are
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
That advice also referred to the British, who are backward but don't know it.
EDIT: To prevent any flamewars, I would like you to know that I am not being serious at all and I don't actually mean this stuff. Except maybe the part about the British not realizing how backwards they are
(http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/stfu3.jpg)
I even used the lvlshot tags...
:)
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Well said.
Back on-topic, the most annoying bit is trying to find where your overly-complex series of events goes tits-up (usually about 10 minutes into the mission), then changing one tiny but significant thing and testing it again, just to find something else has stopped working....:mad:
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THAT is what makes event editing such a *****. Something always goes wrong with some event that's triggered way into the mission and it takes forever to find and fix the problem.
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Looks like I'll be adding another line to my list o' ****-ups :sigh:
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I think this whole thread has turned into a fück-up of colossal proportions.
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I wonder who's to blame
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briefing/debrief by far.
i actually like doing backgrounds as you will see in SA
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Testing and Bug Fixing is fun. You get to see the whole mission collapse around your ears.
I made this stand-alone mission where there'd been a second Lucifer incursion and for the past 3 years the GTVA had been trying to destroy it. You join the story just after the 5th fleet has been massacred while trying as a last hope to directly assault the Lucifer and it's fleets. The Lucifer and its fleets move on, but the damage caused by the 5th fleet has left it stranded out in open space with no comms, nav or engines and you've gotta escort a wing of Elysiums with Kamikaze orders to the Lucifer.
I set the special explosion parameters up into the millions, placed a few Cains and fighter wings and ran the mission.
7 seconds into the mission, the first Cain warps in, smashed into the side of Omega 2, annihilates it, fires its beam cannon at Omega 1, annihilates it, leaving only Omega 3. You get an awesome visual, but that's not what I'd planned on having happen. So Omega 1 and 2 go up, trigger 2 of the most powerful explosions in the FS universe since Capella exploded, they shoot out at about 1000m/s, annihilate everything and kill you. So the last thing you see as your ship explodes in the little cinema-esq window is about 3 Cains, 20 Shivan fighters, all your wingmen, and the Lucifer errupting in massive plumes of fire as the shockwave hits 'em.
Cool, if not completey ****ed up.
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The penultimate mission of Inferno has 94 SEXPs in it - so many that the later chained events didn't always execute. Try testing THAT dozens of times (the mission lasts ~17 action-filled minutes).
I'd say a good average-length mission has about 30-40 SEXPs. Most missions in Inferno I consider average, a few below and a few above.
Briefing is the most fun for me; you get to lay out the initial battlefield and start making things happen from there.
Sid.
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How long is an "average mission"? My mission (the first in my campaign) is around 7 minutes long and has 16 events, many of which have multiple sexps, and there are also other sexps for debriefings and arrival/departure cues. Basically it's like this:
You fly out of the Moloch's hangar bay and are greeted by six Anubises, one of whom taunts you. You blow them up.
An Anuket gas miner and three wings of three escort fighters warp in. You are ordered to destroy the Anuket and the fighters. The escort wings respawn three times. Then Sigma wing, composed of Dragons, warps in and relieves you of your watch (they're on your side so don't shoot them!). Mission accomplished.
Available loadout:
Ships: GTF Apollo, GTF Valkyrie, GVF Seth
Primaries: PLS-10 plasma cannon, Subach HL-7, VLL-9 Vasudan Light Laser, Disruptor, A-Disruptor, Akheton SDG, Prometheus R
Secondaries: MX-50, Rockeye, Fury, Fang, Tempest, Interceptor, Harpoon, Phoenix V, Hornet
Recommended loadout: GTF Apollo with a PLS-10 and a Subach, with two banks of Harpoons
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Originally posted by an0n
....I set the special explosion parameters up into the millions, placed a few Cains and fighter wings and ran the mission.
7 seconds into the mission, the first Cain warps in, smashed into the side of Omega 2, annihilates it, fires its beam cannon at Omega 1, annihilates it, leaving only Omega 3. You get an awesome visual, but that's not what I'd planned on having happen. So Omega 1 and 2 go up, trigger 2 of the most powerful explosions in the FS universe since Capella exploded, they shoot out at about 1000m/s, annihilate everything and kill you. So the last thing you see as your ship explodes in the little cinema-esq window is about 3 Cains, 20 Shivan fighters, all your wingmen, and the Lucifer errupting in massive plumes of fire as the shockwave hits 'em.
Cool, if not completey ****ed up.
Well, I had this problem on the another way: I wanted to use a Meson bomb, which is placed next to a Ravana, and I wanted the bomb to kill the Ravana. Everything is proceeding fine, but the bomb explodes, catches me at about five kilometers away from the centre of the explosion, but the Ravana stayed alive. But I have set the damage to max. The condition for the Meson bomb to be carried in is to disarm the Ravana, well, if I watch the hull of the Ravana(I don't use Helios at every turrets to disarm ):D , then I might have done insufficent damage, so the Meson could destroy it. The second part is when FRED automatically disables the fine-tuned special explosion, and uses the default explosion set in the TBL. blah ... ;7
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Setting really many events is fun, and looks fine as they cannot be displayed on one page, you have to scroll. I think about 20-25 events is enough to make a good mission(good-secondary, and beam-free-all is always required).
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
How long is an "average mission"? My mission (the first in my campaign) is around 7 minutes long and has 16 events, many of which have multiple sexps, and there are also other sexps for debriefings and arrival/departure cues. Basically it's like this:
i try to shoot for 10 minutes.
a few missions in SA go for about 20
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The real challenge for me in FREDing is to make a mission long. My top-point mission in length was one of the missions in my own campaign. That was 12 minutes long in average, and 9 minutes long if you play nice, and blow everybody up quickly.
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Originally posted by TopAce
Setting really many events is fun, and looks fine as they cannot be displayed on one page, you have to scroll. I think about 20-25 events is enough to make a good mission(good-secondary, and beam-free-all is always required).
Hmmm, the Moloch corvette in my mission has no working turrets (it's a "center of gravity" that serves as the focal point of the mission and keeps all the ships from dispersing), so there's no need for a beam-free-all event (nobody has any beams). I'll see what good. What is good-secondary, though?
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It tells the Ai to prefer a secondary weapon against a target.
So if the Ai has a Bakha bomber, with 4 Helios and 10 Trebuchet, you can tell him to use the Trebuchet on a Fenris. Or even this is useful if the player would give only Trebs to the Ai. This event ensures the user that his wingman would use the Trebuchet. The same is at the case of the Stilleto II.
It looks somehow like this:
Trebuchet use
- has-time-elapsed
2
- good-secondary-time
Friendly
100
Trebuchet
GTC Ophanes
It tells all friendly ships to use at most 100 Trebuchet against the GTC Ophanes, which is the Fenris I have been talking about.
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I had a great mission (maby I still have it...)
It's set after the Jumpgate was destroyed and the Sath jumped in.
The fleet is pereparing to blockade the node, and you are on a special ops mission to recon the other side of the portal, to see if other ships are coming. Needles to say, your destroyer waits on the other side, but it can't wait long, for it has to re-joi the main battle group. as you fly trough the nebula (in pegasus fighters) you detect a debris field... Terran and Shivan debris...
You find the GTD Independence floating around. Nebula prevents a full scan, so yu have to scan it section by section (system). once the comm system is scanned you hear from the suvivors. Command orders you to hold and sends a recovery team. The Shivans jump in sevral fighter and bombers and a cruiser - the fighting stats. A wing of SOC fighters, a Vasudan cruiser, Vasudan wing and the repair ship arrive. The independence turrets are back on line. And a Demon jumps in. While Gamma tries to disarm it you tag it and after a while it's destroyed...
It's engines are back on-line and it sets course for the jump node
Now lot's of bombers start jumping in, and right infront of the node, another cruiser...
the mission lasted about 20-25 minutes.... It was great...have to find it again...
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Originally posted by SadisticSid
The penultimate mission of Inferno has 94 SEXPs in it - so many that the later chained events didn't always execute. Try testing THAT dozens of times (the mission lasts ~17 action-filled minutes).
94? I break that in about 50% of my missions :p.
And I like doing BGs, though more with customs than the V ones
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Number of SEXPs isn't exactly a measure of the quality of a mission or even the quality of the FREDding involved.
I tend to end up with missions with around 60 or so. Does that mean that my missions are less detailed or simply that I'm more efficient with my SEXP use? Hard to tell until we've all released these missions and compared :)
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Oh, no arguement here. I tend to waste sexps anyway, doubling up in case the message sender dies, not using SMLs (I use them about two thirds of the time, but sometimes I just don't bother) etc. etc.
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I have ever had a mission with only four SEXPS:
The player enters the area to capture a Vasudan leader onbaord an Aten. After the Aten is disarmed and disabled, a Transport jumps in a moves to position to capture.
Capture directive
[Chained] Return to base directive
Transport docking
Transport moves to escape
Comments? When I have made that mission, I was quite beginner, and I thought messages has no importance.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
Oh, no arguement here. I tend to waste sexps anyway, doubling up in case the message sender dies...
If you set the message priority to 'Normal' or 'Low', the message won't appear when the sender is dead.
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
94? I break that in about 50% of my missions :p.
And I like doing BGs, though more with customs than the V ones
Cool. Did chains lower down the events list ever stop working for you? They sometimes execute properly on mine, but they were so unreliable that I had to switch to is-event-true-delay for the latter parts of mine. Perhaps that's because of Inferno's custom executables...
Sid.
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Hmm, can't really say one way or the other, I don't use chains much, except for mission directives, I go for the is event trues more often than not (another thing that probably ups sexp count).
And TopAce - you're probably right, but then I lose important messages or worse yet, have only half a conversation show up in mission.
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I have a half-hour mission. It's... atmospheric. As Aldo put it, 'you don't notice you're not doing anything for over twenty minutes'.
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The number of SEXPs and events used does not necessarily correlate with the length or intensity of the mission.
There is one in SA a specific single fighter needs to be destroyed, but given the fact that I don't know in advance which fighters will be alive at the appropiate point of the mission, I had to set up huge chains of complex events with a descending logical structure utilising multiple variables to keep track of necessary information. All the player sees, however, is one fighter breaking off to pursue a different task than the rest and an directive to destroy Virgo 3 or Aries 2 or whoever it happens to be that is chosen on that particular iteration of the mission. To him, the mission seems relatively simple, and aside from this one aspect of complex logic, it is. But all the SEXPs needed to let the player know who he is supposed to kill caused the mission to max out the Events node limit.
By the way, you might notice that I find the SEXP wrangling to be the most fun part of Fredding. There aren't any really boring parts to Fred---the 24th test flight is about as close as it gets to boring, and even then not really, since it means one is still engaged in part of a creative process and needs to exercise one's mind in hunting down and eliminating any bugs.
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which one is this?
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Originally posted by Black Wolf
....And TopAce - you're probably right, but then I lose important messages or worse yet, have only half a conversation show up in mission.
Are you thinking on something like this:
Alpha 2: We are never gonna reach that damn node!
Alpha 4: Confidence, this ship won't blow up only when I order her.
If Alpha 2 dies, and you don't want Alpha 4 tell the message, you can make sg like this:
Alpha 4 sends message
is-event-true
Alpha 3 sends message
4
send-message
Alpha 4
Medium
Confidence!
I have just today realized that using 'Low' priority is not recommended when two or more pilots are talking.
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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
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Yeesh.
That could probably be made a lot simpler by adding a ship-type to the variable, as opposed to just string or number. Assuming you're using the SCP, of course. :)
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Originally posted by PhReAk
which one is this?
Sa_m1_03
Originally posted by Goober5000
That could probably be made a lot simpler by adding a ship-type to the variable, as opposed to just string or number. Assuming you're using the SCP, of course. :)
No, that wouldn't help in the slightest. It is a question of which individual fighter, not what class it is. The scenario is simple enough to explain:
Two wings of Maras attacking an AWACS armed with a communications suppressant, Alpha trying to destroy them. If sufficient numbers of Shivans are destroyed as compared to the hitpoints remaining on the AWACS, one of the Maras breaks off to head for the jump node so as to escape the comm blanket being imposed by the AWACS and call for reinforcements from the next system.
The thing is, I cannot know in advance which fighters will be alive at this point in the mission, but I only want to give the new orders to one of the fighters. Therefore I have to go through a process of elimination counting through all the fighters until I find one who is alive. Then I give him his new orders, and a "Destroy So-and-so" directive to Alpha 1 while I am at it. Making it all work out properly was a fiddly business, but logic problems are always fun. :)
P.S.- This mission was made before the SCP even existed, anyway.
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Play-testing is okay about the first ten times but by the 40th or so time it becomes a total headache. :p
I usually try to keep my missions between 7 and 15 minutes long. All are very action-packed though, with few periods where you are just sitting around. :D
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The most annoying/boring part has got to be the events, ship arrive cue's, anything to do with SEXPs :mad:. The part i like the most has got to be the Briefing icons, background information (Command Briefing), and putting ships on the map.:D
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I think the only boring in SEXPing is testing complicated branches, if it doesn't work, you can spend your whole day finding the mistake and solution to fix it.