Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: TopAce on July 27, 2003, 10:08:51 am
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Which missile do you find better? Why?
I find the Harpoon better, more accurate. And you can take more damage with a bank of Harpoons than Tornadoes.
Thread hijacked to: What do you mean under 'capital ship'
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Harpoons seem to offer the best damage-for-space ratio of the dogfighting missiles... Tornados and Hornets don't actually seem to track fighters all that well, quite often a fighter is able to out-turn and out-run them. They're good for hammering bombers, mind.
But think what happens when a wing of Maras arrives to attack your Argo - they each unleash a double Hornet volley, and your argo gets smacked down. It wouldn't have been so bad if they'd been armed with Harpoons... it's probably just a good job that the AI can't fire dumbfires, or they'd have the Tempest and be quite dangerous....
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Wanna try something cool? Set it so that one of the turrets on top of an Aeolus is armed with Tempests, and see how long you last against it. Or anything for that matter.
BTW; Harpoons are far more accurate, and deadly.
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Harpoons, definitely. As TopAce and DG said, a full load of Harpoons will do more damage than an equivalent load of Tornadoes. Their homing devices are also more accurate and they rearm much faster. Actually, in multiplayer TvT games they turn out to be so good that most missions do not allow them. :D
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Harps. :nod:
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Both have advatages, while the Harp is more accurate and has a faster recharge rate it needs at least 2 double shots to do serious damage to a average fighter. When you have a double shot tornado that hits...well... the fighter is destroyed 9 out of 10 times in 1 volley.
In other words: Haprs are better for the slower fighters. But when you get into faster fighters that can get on a fighters tail up close I'd pick Tornados :)
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Harpoons all the way.:nod:
Tornadoes are good for slapping Seraphim about, 'cos they can get through the shields in one go, but a bit crap against anything else - they miss!
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production on tornados should be stopped altogether. there's no point to them if you have harpoons. Unless they cost a whole lot less, I don't see why the GTVA keeps buying them.
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I have experienced that sometimes the Tornado doesn't do damage to hulls, for larger ships, even for cruisers. Despite their damage is 25(per missile) and the Armor factor is 2, so it would mean that 8x50, 400 damage. That's not bad, but the Hornet's hull damage is more visible.
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Originally posted by Carl
production on tornados should be stopped altogether. there's no point to them if you have harpoons. Unless they cost a whole lot less, I don't see why the GTVA keeps buying them.
They, don't. They supposedly had a huge surplus after the great war. They've been replaced more or less (at least buying wise) with the tornados.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
They, don't. They supposedly had a huge surplus after the great war. They've been replaced more or less (at least buying wise) with the tornados.
Those are Hornets that there was a huge surplus of... Carl said Tornados... Not to be picky :rolleyes:
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whatever. They're more or less the same thing :p
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Yeah, i hate them both equally.
Th efunny thing is that there must have been one hell of a surplus, because they are still being used in Inferno... :p
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tornados. they are much better against larger ships
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Larger ships? *Shocker!!![/i]*
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Tornadoes: Miss too much
Harpoons: Fast target aquisition and deadly.:drevil:
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I use the Tornado against freighters and cruisers. And from time to time against fighters. But the Harpoon is best for dogfighting.
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I like tornadoes. Multi MicroMissile Storm!!
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the harpoon, because you actually have a chance of hitting with it.
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Everyone who misses all the time with Tornadoes need to have their Freespace abilities checked... I mean I shoot down fighters like flies with those things. Also, turrets are easily dealt with with these things.
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Nah... it's the countermeasures that seem to attract all 8 missiles at once. There should be atleast one or 2 missiles that make it through...
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If somebody is interested, poll timeout is 45 days. :)
Well, I can say that Harpoon has worse use when a ship fired a countermeasure, but in most times, it has no use, because the Harpoon and the Tornado both targets the front of the ship.
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Originally posted by TheCelestialOne
Everyone who misses all the time with Tornadoes need to have their Freespace abilities checked... I mean I shoot down fighters like flies with those things. Also, turrets are easily dealt with with these things.
I don't know really, but generally, the enemy ships are about twice as fast as your own, so they do the countermeasure-afterburn manoeuvre all the time. the harpoon is faster, and thus gives the enemies less time to react, so you hit them more often. then their shields are down and you can shoot them with the primaries.
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Originally posted by kode
I don't know really, but generally, the enemy ships are about twice as fast as your own, so they do the countermeasure-afterburn manoeuvre all the time. the harpoon is faster, and thus gives the enemies less time to react, so you hit them more often. then their shields are down and you can shoot them with the primaries.
Well, I don't know about you guys but I manage to get behind any Shivan/enemy fighter with a Herc MkII or equiv. When I am, I fire my Tonadoes and they go boom without the need of primary fire.
But then again, I only use this sparely. Normally I rely on primaries more then secondaries.
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Tornado, all the way, as soon as I get them, I never look back.
Personally, I've found that Tornados almost never miss, the only time I've seen them miss is if I move my fighter in the opposite direction to the target's movement as I fire.
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Depends on who I'll be fighting more. Slow and steady (bombers and caps): Tornadoes. Anything more agile than that: Harpoons. If the mission is general I go for the Harpoons, because stuff like Dragons and Manticores are just plain frustrating to go after with only primaries and Tornadoes that don't track as strongly. Bombers, on the other hand, I can still take down with primaries.
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for me it is mind which shiptzpe I am flying, I always prefer Harpoons.
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I prefer tornadoes over harpoons. Tornadoes pretty much render harpoons obsolete and remove much of the need for Trebuchets unless you need to pick off bombers from really long range.
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Theres always a need for trebuchet, even if it's to knock out a cruiser or corvette beam cannon or Subsystem :)
Harpoons are my favourites, whilst dogfighting, simply because of the extra speed. Tornado, however are very effective against subsystems, and are good at getting the enemies attention when you are on Escort duty :)
Flipside :)
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I use the Maxim on cruiser turrets.
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harpoons all the way.
Good damage to speed ratio, excellent tracking ability, very fast lock time.
Use these against Dragons and the new very fast ones and they almost always hit when compared to tornados.
tornados are okay, good for bomber saturation from behind but I still find shivans can countermeasure them too easily or outrun them W afterburners.
Thats my Pers by the way, others of course will prefer the temps. But
Erinyes.... Kayser/ Maxim
And
Hapoons (16) AND Trebuchets
My perfect balanced fighter. Excellent dog fighter(in single game), anti bomber plus has ability to twat almost any light cruiser.
PS corrected name of missiles on 8/8/2003;)
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trebushes all the way baby. high pay load, slow lock but excellent for long range kills against incoming heavy assault and fighters as well as double shots against bombers.
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Um... When did Trebuchet's become a choice? If we're suddenly pulling missiles out our asses (don't touch that) then I nominate the Disruptor Missile, from FS1.
*Disrupter!*
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Just for reference.
GTM-4a Tornado Missile
(http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fs2/weapons/tornado.jpg)
GTM-19 Harpoon
(http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fs2/weapons/harpoon.jpg)
GTM-55 Trebuchet
(http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fs2/weapons/trebuchet.jpg)
GTM-31 Disruptor Missile
(http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fs1/weapons/pics/gtm-disruptor.gif)
Taken from the Volition Watch website.
Trebuchet are great for taking out turrets also partially for the long range.
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Originally posted by hobnob1978
......tempests are okay, good for bomber saturation from behind but I still find shivans can countermeasure them too easily or outrun them W afterburners.
How could the Shivans overrun the Tempest or evade it with countermeasures? I have never seen them launching a CM on a Tempest. :confused:
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That would be like jumping off a burning building with an umbrella, Tempests go straight, a CM would do didly-skwat for saving your hide.
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Originally posted by redmenace
Trebuchet are great for taking out turrets also partially for the long range.
Trebuchet are good for everything, but you don't get enough of them. if i got as many trebuchet as i did hornets, i'd use the trebuchet.
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Originally posted by TopAce
How could the Shivans overrun the Tempest or evade it with countermeasures? I have never seen them launching a CM on a Tempest. :confused:
Tempests are DUMBFIRE missiles that travel 5 times faster than any ship. All you need to avoid them is to turn away from them before they hit you.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Tempests are DUMBFIRE missiles that travel 5 times faster than any ship. All you need to avoid them is to turn away from them before they hit you.
that's basically what he said, you know.
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Originally posted by redmenace
trebushes all the way baby. high pay load, slow lock but excellent for long range kills against incoming heavy assault and fighters as well as double shots against bombers.
Not to mention you can dumbfire them, too. Real handy stuff.
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Gee.. Am I the only one who finds Tornados better than harpoons? Once I can use the things, thats all I use.... they rarely seem to miss for me.... but that may have something to do with the fact that I usually use them at medium to close range, they're fast enough that the target doesnt have enough time to evade... A double shot of tornados is a guaranteed kill for a Mara and anything weaker....
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Tempests are DUMBFIRE missiles that travel 5 times faster than any ship. All you need to avoid them is to turn away from them before they hit you.
Yeah I know it. But it still doesn't give me an answer how to evade them with countermeasures and how to be faster than the projectile itself. :rolleyes:
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That's the problem with the Tempest, it doesn't lock on so theres no lock to scramble or tracking system to trick. You can't outspeed it, so, if you can't get out of the way in time, it hits you. Sometimes it's unavoidable.
I always find the best trick is to find the b*stard that's shooting at you and give him both barrels, that way he has something else to think about ;)
I always make Missile turrets high priority on CapShips, simply cos I get bored with hearing Blip--Blip-BlipBliplipipipipipipipZUNG! all the time :(
Peace :D
Flipside :)
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Originally posted by TopAce
Yeah I know it. But it still doesn't give me an answer how to evade them with countermeasures and how to be faster than the projectile itself. :rolleyes:
BUT YOU CANNOT DO THAT. You have to get out of the line of fire before you get turned into dog food.
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The answer you're looking for probably is that he meant to type Tornado but ended up typing something else instead for whatever reason. Happens to the best of them if thinking about one thing while trying to type another ;)
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I expect so, since the AI won't use dumbfires against you (hint hint, SCP guys). Unless he was talking about multiplayer.
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Somehow I don't find it a good idea to give the Ai a possibiity to handle the Tempest, simply because they would hit the player with 100% accuracy, simple because they can calculate the flight path of the player and shoot there.
I had a thread about half a year before, in which I made a poll(I have the bad feeling you can still vote :)), and there, somebody revealed that the Ai is really cheating, and this reason gives me the belief that the Ai would better NOT use the Tempest, it would be another disadvantage for the human player against the Ai.
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Originally posted by TopAce
Somehow I don't find it a good idea to give the Ai a possibiity to handle the Tempest, simply because they would hit the player with 100% accuracy, simple because they can calculate the flight path of the player and shoot there.
But computer's CAN'T determine the flight path of a player, because a player can move in ways that the computer can't pre-determine. Thus we can EASILY evade Tempests fired by a computer. The ai doesn't hit you 100% of the time with it's lasers, does it?
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At insane difficulty vs a general level computer opponent, they might hit nearly all the time if you fly in a straight line at a constant speed. But they can't predict the flightpath of a player, plus at anything lower than a general on insane they also lose accuracy and will miss some even under perfect circumstances.
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Originally posted by Exarch
At insane difficulty vs a general level computer opponent, they might hit nearly all the time if you fly in a straight line at a constant speed. But they can't predict the flightpath of a player, plus at anything lower than a general on insane they also lose accuracy and will miss some even under perfect circumstances.
Giving an AI tempests is just like giving them an overpowered main cannon; the game doesn't alert you to incoming tempests (because they don't lock most likely) and so the player would only know they were being shot at him if one flew past. And tempests cause a lot of damage relative to the rate of fire, so they could be really dangerous if one isn't careful. We've all hit AI pilots with tempests before, so we know it's possible to hit a fighter with them. AI's rarely live long enough to expend their missile load, so the primary disadvantage to tempests is essentially nullified. I'm not saying don't impliment it, but I doubt it'd ever be used unless it somehow involved your wingmen.
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It would certainly make thing more hairy in bombing runs. I dunno, maybe there should be a sexp that will let them use it, but not enabled by default so that AI aren't overpowering.
Maybe 2 sexps:
AI-use-dumbfire - Obvious
AI-dumbfire-accuracy - Lets you edit the hit/miss ratio, so if it's a bombing run, they won't get you all the time
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Why bombing run? The Tempest doesn't do ANY damage to capital ships, except the subsystems.
Or are you thinking about bombing run like supply depot attack, and sentry-killing actions?
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Harpoons and Trebs, kayser and morning star
All the power you'll ever need.
Tornados are only good for TvT because they don't allow Harps
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I see that many of you like the Morning Star. :nod:
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Originally posted by TopAce
Why bombing run? The Tempest doesn't do ANY damage to capital ships, except the subsystems.
Or are you thinking about bombing run like supply depot attack, and sentry-killing actions?
I meant if the AI had tempests and you were flying an Ursa, they'd get you all the time.
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I see. It is one another reason why to do not fly bombers...;)
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Oh I love flying bombers, especially the Ursa
It's my Flying Bus
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yeah, bombing runs are the best. Too bad people make missions whee capships destroy everything, rather than strategically using bombers...
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This thread appears to be dying, the winner of the voting is the Harpoon, as I supposed when opened this thread.:)
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Thats what I voted for. They are just a bit better. And they don't miss nearly as often as the Tornados do. IMO
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Yup Harpoon=lovely multi tasking missile;)
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Harpoons because of one very simple thing: capacity. I find that if I'm close enough that tornadoes don't miss, I can easily destroy my target with primaries. If it's fast enough to dodge my primaries, it's good enough to dodge the tornado. I prefer to launch harpoons at the beginning of attacks runs or use them to finish off targets quickly.
Also, at Insane difficulty, I experience self-destructing tornadoes way too often (AI uses countermeasures) while a pair of harpoons shoots in and splashes the target through the weaken shields from behind.
If I'm taking out bombers, the kayser is good enough for me.
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Originally posted by TopAce
Why bombing run? The Tempest doesn't do ANY damage to capital ships, except the subsystems.
Or are you thinking about bombing run like supply depot attack, and sentry-killing actions?
I took out a Fenris in one pass by firing at it constantly with my primaries (prometheus R, and subach), and tempests. I always take a load of Tempests when I know I'm up against cap ships and can't carry bombs.
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Harpoons. I never use Tornados...
I either use Harpoons or Tempst or Trebuchet.
A heavy-gunned fighter + tempest = fried Shivans.
i relly liked the combination Athena + 2 avengers + fury
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Originally posted by redsniper
I took out a Fenris in one pass by firing at it constantly with my primaries (prometheus R, and subach), and tempests. I always take a load of Tempests when I know I'm up against cap ships and can't carry bombs.
That's a Fenris, a better pilot can even take out a Fenris with ML-16! Try the same while attacking a Deimos and say that again ...
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right, but could they destroy a Fenris with just ML-16s in one pass, without slowing down. (I was flying a Myrmidon btw)
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lol, the same myrmiddon can do that with the single helios it's able to carry as well.
A maxim could probably do the job before the pass is even finished.
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the mission didn't have any Helioses or Maxim's. :rolleyes: The point was that tempests can hurt capships.
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Originally posted by redsniper
....The point was that tempests can hurt capships.
It depends on what do you mean under 'capship'. In my dictionary there are eight of them: Orion, Typhon, Demon, Hecate, Hatshepsut, Ravana, Colossus and Sathanas.
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Then you need a new dictionary :lol:
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Originally posted by TopAce
It depends on what do you mean under 'capship'. In my dictionary there are eight of them: Orion, Typhon, Demon, Hecate, Hatshepsut, Ravana, Colossus and Sathanas.
And what does your dictionary call all of the other capships?
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
And what does your dictionary call all of the other capships?
There are no other capships, just the one I have forgotten: The Lucifer[/b]
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Originally posted by TopAce
There are no other capships, just the one I have forgotten: The Lucifer [/B]
And the Hades.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
And the Hades.
yeah, that's a capship, too. Despite I never use it :)
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Originally posted by TopAce
That's a Fenris, a better pilot can even take out a Fenris with ML-16! Try the same while attacking a Deimos and say that again ...
Try attacking it in an UNSHIELDED Anubis or Seth with Vasudan Light Lasers and Fangs in the FSPort campaign and see how long you live. The Fenris can be a real ***** to kill with beginning-of-FS1 Vasudan technology.
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Originally posted by redsniper
I took out a Fenris in one pass by firing at it constantly with my primaries (prometheus R, and subach), and tempests. I always take a load of Tempests when I know I'm up against cap ships and can't carry bombs.
But we are talking about modern weapons here.
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Well from my point of wiev the Harpoons are all the way better then the hornets and the tornados..i mean the tornado has an iritating habbit of missing its target and the few missions were i played with tornados a used to hit turbo button get realy close to the enemy fighter and shoot a double salvo of tornados but the damage wasnt that great while the harpoon ..welll i moped up eny enemy fighter with it with very few misses!;7
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Try attacking it in an UNSHIELDED Anubis or Seth with Vasudan Light Lasers and Fangs in the FSPort campaign and see how long you live. The Fenris can be a real ***** to kill with beginning-of-FS1 Vasudan technology.
Is that section up for DL? I've been wanting to play from the Vasudan POV forever...
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Is that section up for DL? I've been wanting to play from the Vasudan POV forever...
No. It's a project separate from the main campaign that GE's working on.
(http://www.ebaumsworld.com/forumfun/misc8.jpg)
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Let this one [glow=red]DIE![/glow]
[EDIT] The glowing effect is nice!