Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xelion on July 31, 2003, 03:30:30 am
Title: New Forum
Post by: Xelion on July 31, 2003, 03:30:30 am
This is a Request, really there should be a request form (but I guess it'll add too much work..).
Straight to the Point, I would like to request a new Forum be instated, after talking with Black Wolf over msn, part of conversation gave me this idea..
A Campaign Forum should be directly under the HLP art forum, this forum should include a permanent sticky at the top which has a posting from each campaign leader of their storyline and site link for their campaign. This forum would particular add an increasing amount of fans to every campaign available.
The forum would allow post/reply access to all peepz in community and be moderated, besides the sticky post, the forum would be used to inform the community about releases of the campaign (eg, beta, missions, etc, but primarily for downloads relating to the missions, but not site updates unless its a big one...
The extent of who can post their campaign ad should not be limited to those belonging to HLP, as the Slogan says "Bringing Modders Together..., it should be available to all who have a campaign site..because as HLP is no.1 fs2 site it is where everyone goes!!!
Thats all, and please think about this carefully :nod:
Thanks ;)
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: FreeTerran on July 31, 2003, 03:38:04 am
Good idea :yes:
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stryke 9 on July 31, 2003, 03:49:38 am
What are "peepz"? X-TREEM foul-tasting marshmallow lumps with attitude and glass shards?
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Xelion on July 31, 2003, 03:50:43 am
Forgot to mention - was gonna post poll..but it was too l8 by the time I pressed the button and realised it..:rolleyes:
anywayz part of the :yes: (credit) should go to Black Wolf as well
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Xelion on July 31, 2003, 03:52:58 am
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9 What are "peepz"? X-TREEM foul-tasting marshmallow lumps with attitude and glass shards?
Well now that you ask..peepz is just short for people...:p and no your explanation wouldn't fit the description for the community :lol:
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stryke 9 on July 31, 2003, 03:55:32 am
I'm pretty sure some posters here...
Anyway. Hmm. Considering how nearly all of the campaigns are, at best, moving horribly slowly relative to everything else, some consolidation would be a good idea to my mind. Take out all the public hosted forums and just have 'em post in one big one with a campaign tag in the title. Convenient, easy to browse, and means I might actually read other campaigns' stuff once every year or so.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Shrike on July 31, 2003, 03:56:29 am
Not to completely spoil your fun or anything.... (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,484.0.html)
There's nothing wrong with people posting updates in the FS forums, assuming they're not hosted with their own forum to spam. I'm not sure why this would need an entire forum though. Can you explain more fully?
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Xelion on July 31, 2003, 04:19:21 am
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9 Hmm. Considering how nearly all of the campaigns are, at best, moving horribly slowly relative to everything else, some consolidation would be a good idea to my mind. Take out all the public hosted forums and just have 'em post in one big one with a campaign tag in the title. Convenient, easy to browse, and means I might actually read other campaigns' stuff once every year or so.
Now that is a good idea, but 1. Too much work to remove current campaign forums and place in archive elsewhere. 2. If someone likes the campaign a lot they can visit the site and dedicated forum to that campaign for more information 3. If there is one big Campaign forum, there be to much posted...
Why not Shrike! The interview forum gets limited amounts of Postings...Subtly the forum would place more emphasis on advertising the campaigns to n00bs or fans shall we say, and wouldn't necessarily require them to visit each site to see the storyline, which in fact isn't easy to find on some sites and would see also what campaigns are available... :nod:
I think this is a good idea and so should everyone else because it would be a benefit :hopping:
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stryke 9 on July 31, 2003, 04:21:30 am
Consolidation. To make the indie campaigners feel more like they have a place to post than they do now. So that they're not lost in the shuffle of polls as to whether people prefer Adm. Bosch's hat or the Kayser primary weapon. Because the only other thing you've got to do at the moment is sit around waiting for me to say one of the bad bad wicked words that make the Devil laugh and Jesus weep.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stryke 9 on July 31, 2003, 04:30:22 am
Max:
1. Not really a worry. We've got something like 6 admins, on and off, and hell- the main page hasn't been updated in almost a year. They're off working on their own little things, but that leaves plenty of time for actually being an admin. Alternately, if they're secretly overworked and very good at hiding it now, they can just give me admin powers and I'll take over the work. I've run boards before, it won't take out too much of my busy schedule of sitting around alternating between writer's block, modeler's block, and hitting-things-with-other-things block.
2.Yeeeh... but the same setup also keeps people from looking at any campaigns except the one or two (or half bajillion, in the case of, say, Stealth and the other few who whore out to any campaign that looks remotely in their direction) they focus on. We wouldn't be here if we weren't lazy ****ers deep down inside, and all that scrolling and searching is a pain in the ass.
3. Have you seen the individual campaign forums? You'd get five threads a week, tops. Probably less, since 90% of the stuff on the campaign boards is spam to remind people that they're still alive even if they aren't.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Knight Templar on July 31, 2003, 05:01:34 am
Yeah, around here, you have to have a really good reason if you want something new. While it's an alright idea, we have 2 Freespace forums already, and if you want attention, you can announce it in Hard Light.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Xelion on July 31, 2003, 05:21:26 am
Were talking about n00bs or fans here, HELLO!...1st thing you learn about websites is that to get attention quickly you've got to make it damn obvious what your trying to provide.
So having forums, and a new person come along will mean they just go away because the search for a campaign has been a tedious task and unless you can find it in a news item on the front page (presently/atm) or on a pretty obvious post your going to loose a fan....whilst lots of fans are turning up more than 60% are most likely leaving because the forums are acting as a deterrent - if they can't find something.
its an Advertising benefit..I would think putting the word Campaign with the rest of the forum titles, it would mean more people would come and check for gameplay!!
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Sandwich on July 31, 2003, 05:51:57 am
Quote
Originally posted by Max its an Advertising benefit..I would think putting the word Campaign with the rest of the forum titles, it would mean more people would come and check for gameplay!!
That's actually a very good point. Perhaps we could simply rename "Freespace Modding" to "Freespace Modding (Mods?) and Campaigns".
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: karajorma on July 31, 2003, 08:48:43 am
I don't agree with getting rid of the forums for hosted campaigns cause it allows you to keep track of a single campaign without having to read all the others.
However I have no problem with an Everyone Else forum for any campaign not hosted at HLP. It would be a good place to recruit, post ideas etc without getting lost in the sea of non campaign related questions on the general FS2 board.
Personally I'd prefer to see the modding forum remain a place for questions rather than pimping.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Black Ace on July 31, 2003, 10:33:12 am
I have lots to say to all this, but I'm late for work, so remind me to post here later... :D
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: pyro-manic on July 31, 2003, 04:03:54 pm
I think it's an interesting idea - it's true that you can advertise anywhere, but even if people see the thread, trying to find it again can be somewhat, er, daunting. There've been quite a few projects that I've spotted, only to lose them in the mass of stuff that gets put in Hard Light or General Freespace, so I daresay it happens to other people as well.
I vote yes! :yes:
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Carl on July 31, 2003, 04:27:35 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Max 3. If there is one big Campaign forum, there be to much posted
:rolleyes: you should see the campaign forums. one post per month some of them.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: karajorma on July 31, 2003, 05:15:45 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Carl
:rolleyes: you should see the campaign forums. one post per month some of them.
That would change if they all got bunged together. I don't check any of the other forums apart from MG because I don't have the time. If they were all bunged together I'd slowly start reading more and more about them (and posting). Multiply that effect by all the others who'd do the same and you'd see an enormous growth in traffic
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: TopAce on July 31, 2003, 05:18:32 pm
That would come fine. :yes:
The Campaigns topic in the General FreeSpace is a bit empty despite it has 420 posts. Most project leaders(like myself as well) are publishing links of their campaigns in their signature, and keep forum on different websites(for example RR will have one (theorically) on Cold-space.com, ITHOV has one on Nodewars.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Knight Templar on July 31, 2003, 07:45:25 pm
i'll ignore Topace's absent-mindedness for the time being :p
Title: New Forum Poll!!
Post by: Xelion on August 01, 2003, 04:14:57 am
This is actually only for Poll voting to this thread (http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,16499.0.html) because I fogot to add it :rolleyes:...
so post your votes and hurry!!! :nod: :D
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: TopAce on August 01, 2003, 04:26:03 am
Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar i'll ignore Topace's absent-mindedness for the time being :p
What's your problem with my post? Tell it openly. :thepimp:
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Shrike on August 01, 2003, 04:51:07 am
Threads merged.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: J.F.K. on August 01, 2003, 05:39:40 am
I'm not convinced it would help, so I said no... then again, is there harm in trying?
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Fury on August 01, 2003, 08:35:08 am
If you want new forums, make it at least non-Freespace related then. Campaigns can go to modding or general FS forums just fine.
Although HLP is mostly FS community, there's no harm to have much broader variety of forums, as long as there is need for them and sufficient activity. FS will not keep going forever, times changes. And so should HLP.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: karajorma on August 01, 2003, 08:36:22 am
I'm for an Everyone Else forum.
I'm not for merging all the hosted forums together.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: TopAce on August 01, 2003, 04:43:57 pm
I voted yes, we would be able to know more about every mods in progress.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Taristin on August 01, 2003, 07:08:35 pm
I voted no. Mainly because I agree with Shrike (I think) when he said there are already forums for the campaigns. They don't get updated as it is, why should there be a forum for projects that haven't had time to post updates and the like?
If we wanted a dead forum, we could send people to the USBB on the VWBB :rolleyes:
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Xelion on August 01, 2003, 09:28:13 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h I voted no. Mainly because I agree with Shrike (I think) when he said there are already forums for the campaigns. They don't get updated as it is, why should there be a forum for projects that haven't had time to post updates and the like?
If we wanted a dead forum, we could send people to the USBB on the VWBB :rolleyes:
Does anyone actually read threads properly some do but some definitely do not! I'm trying to get new fans to join up with HLP and Freespace2 particulary..the only reason the community hasn't actually been growing very fast or at all is because users search for what there looking for and just leave if they don't find it and go onto a new game.
If this isn't very clear to those out there then I suggest not even replying :nod: to this thread or voting on that matter..
btw another forum in fact will substantially increase traffic in areas were needed and decongest the forums which are used for other purposes already explained in this thread by several other users!:cool:
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 01, 2003, 11:08:48 pm
People are looking for... unfinished campaigns?
If we were going to solve the problem of people taking a look and leaving because there is nothing here, a better idea would be to update the main page. Which was supposed to have happened about 6 months ago.
I don't think it's changed in two years, and there's nothing of any real quality on there. I know I'd leave if I was a newbie and saw that.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Xelion on August 02, 2003, 03:04:35 am
I totally agree with u Stryke 9 on the Front Page being updated :nod:, but neither me or u have powers that grant us this. So right now I'm trying to create a 'cause & effect' that will bring light to the darkness...:p
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Shrike on August 02, 2003, 03:13:14 am
You want the front page updated? Bug styxx cause he's writing the code for it. :p
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 02, 2003, 03:46:50 am
Still with the code bull****.
Is anyone still buying that having the front page coded is quicker and more convenient? Cos, you know, it's been years, and there hasn't been an update. Maybe in 2008, when there are all of six people left around, it'll be fast and convenient to them. The rest of us will have the good sense to move on to newer and prettier games, and maybe community pages where people have heard of FRIGGIN' HTML.
Christ. Takes me about an hour to make a page, ten minutes to modify one. What, exactly, do we need some special fancy coding **** for? For ****'s sake, just give me the job, I'll abuse it like all holy hell but at least there'll be something done by next weekend.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: diamondgeezer on August 02, 2003, 04:34:02 am
The dude's got a point. I mean I know you'll just say 'I'm paying for this so shut the **** up' but seriously, Shrike, what's the deal?
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Shrike on August 02, 2003, 05:20:20 am
Don't ***** at me. I wanted a simple HTML setup like what we have now, but pretty much everyone else wanted it run on PHP.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 02, 2003, 02:38:08 pm
That was a *****ing for all, not directed at you personally.
Anyway, I think at this point those who wanted PHP have seen the error of their sinful ways, and if they haven't I can just hit them with a sock full of quarters. Now. Problem solving.
I can do the page, it's simple enough, but after having tried to get the movie thing together for the past few months I have no patience left to try to coordinate the friggin' deranged sheep that comprise the community, and hence am not going to collect the models myself. Shrike, you wanna put up an announcement or some **** that all modders had best ship their models in for upload? Take at most a day after they're all in to write the tables, I'll email it in, and there we go.
And this is asking Shrike, dudes. I'm not going to sit around and ****ing wait a week while you weigh in on the pros and cons of ever ****ing doing jack **** ever again. If you're not in, you're not in, simple as that.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Sandwich on August 03, 2003, 07:44:42 am
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9 ...but after having tried to get the movie thing together for the past few months...
*ahem* ;)
Anyway, the frontpage update is not a simple update, as people here seem to be under the impression. Yeah, sure - I can throw together a new-looking HTML frontpage in a week along with the best of them, but that's not what we're doing.
Styxx is working on a whole new site structure, one that will allow you forumites to actively contribute to the content as much as you do on the forums.
It will be integrated with the forums at a certain level (ask Styxx for the specifics), so that what happens on the forums will be reflected on the site and vice versa. A glance at the main page and you'll be able to see various stats about forum activity, popular threads, etc. And that's just about the forums.
You'll login to the site under your own, err... logins (:p). You'll be able to post MODding articles and gudes, maintain your own art galleries, find people with the skills you need to finish that project, manage your hosted projects, and much more.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stealth on August 03, 2003, 08:08:50 pm
when's the ETA of this Sandwich? early 2005?
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 03, 2003, 08:19:42 pm
Yeah, exciting. Except that vaporware never is exciting- it's been a ridiculous amount of time, we've lost untold numbers of prospective newbies to the lack of updates, and you've gotta be in friggin' denial to still imagine it's gonna happen.
How, exactly, is it different than a standard upload? The page itself doesn't have any special code that I can see- like I said, a day in Dreamweaver to add new table entries on the outside. If Gamespy has some wierd setup, that's one thing, but if this is another one of those "we're making it unnecessarily complex because it's more convenient because today is Opposite Day" things, then it's a relatively simple affair to chuck out the whole ****ing deal and make a new setup.
I mean, really, how hard can you manage to make a table of file listings? I've got a multimedia page with animations, multiple layers, mousovers I barely even understand and enough rendered **** to take a month in production, but when I get down to it I can crank out a page a week- and that's factoring in setting up scenes with existing models and rendering them. You don't have to do that, it's just text (which can be provided by the creator) and links to files (which have to be provided by the creator). There's jack **** to do, how can you possibly set it up so that it takes more than a year to add one single file to it?
Actually, I'm not sure I wanna know. But you see my point- this is just stupid.
Hell, who needs interactivity, anyway? It'd get abused, have to be moderated anyway, would contract bugs, be more difficult to fix, and already has hurt the community more than it ever is gonna help, and it ain't even up yet! Ten minutes to open the file in Dreamweaver, copy/paste a table, type in a new name, reroute the link and paste in a new 50-word description, and upload the ****er. There. You've got a setup with a one-day to one-week lag between post and upload (infinitely shorter than the nonexistent one now), it's simple to maintain and fix, can be quality-controlled by admins, and for ****'s sake if you're all too lazy to do it give me the upload codes and I can manage it in my spare time. I've done more difficult ones before.
See, here's my take- I can have this system up in a week, given that someone gives the the upload information and someone else lets the modders know what's up. From what I hear and what I've seen of the realities of databases, it'll work very nearly as well as anything you can create. It can be maintained and updated in seconds, requires only the amount of effort involved in making, say, a newspost (or spamming here, since the newspost is kinda a bad example seeing how rarely you do that). And if this mythic fancy-schmantsy new uberfunctional frontpage ever comes along, you can put it on over this one just as easily as the ****ty, run-down piece of crap we have now. There's no real loss on anyone's side, I've offered to do the majority of the work (which is still next to none) already several times, and for once we won't have something that's an embarassment to everyone around. Unless you can come up with a really good, compelling reason as to why this can't or shouldn't be done (One that doesn't involve the concept of "I'm even too lazy to let someone else do all the work"), this is all just**** and excuse-making. Inertia. Whatever it is, I'm not gonna sit around waiting for a code Godot just because y'all admins are under the illusion that it's gonna pop up tomorrow, and tomorro the next day (nobody else is fooled).
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Sandwich on August 04, 2003, 03:27:06 am
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9 Yeah, exciting. Except that vaporware never is exciting- it's been a ridiculous amount of time, we've lost untold numbers of prospective newbies to the lack of updates, and you've gotta be in friggin' denial to still imagine it's gonna happen.
It's been under construction - by someone who already has a full-time job, by the way - for around 130 days. That's four months and change. Styxx happens to be uploading something today so that the admins can see what he's gotten so far - I'm hoping it'll be possible to show you guys, as well, if for nothing else than to keep you from sticking your foot in your mouth any longer.
How, exactly, is it different than a standard upload? The page itself doesn't have any special code that I can see- like I said, a day in Dreamweaver to add new table entries on the outside. If Gamespy has some wierd setup, that's one thing, but if this is another one of those "we're making it unnecessarily complex because it's more convenient because today is Opposite Day" things, then it's a relatively simple affair to chuck out the whole ****ing deal and make a new setup.
The current page has no special code that you can see because it's all executed server-side. It actually has tons of SSI code building the sidebar sections, page header and footer, news index, news headings, and news posts. Before I take more time explaining how it works, go read a basic beginner's tutorial on SSI, will you?
But this isn't the point anyway. The reason the main site hasn't been updated beyond news posts is because to do so is clunky and requires FTP and HTML knowledge, something that not many staffers had much knowledge of in the pre-Styxx/Sandwich era. (;)). The only reason the news posts were updated with any sort of frequency at all was because the update process was completely via an online, web interface, and required zero HTML/FTP know-how. This is why we are building a new site where everything can be updated and added to via a web interface. Once complete, all staffers, and even hosted project leaders, will be able to update and maintain site content freely.
I mean, really, how hard can you manage to make a table of file listings? I've got a multimedia page with animations, multiple layers, mousovers I barely even understand and enough rendered **** to take a month in production, but when I get down to it I can crank out a page a week- and that's factoring in setting up scenes with existing models and rendering them. You don't have to do that, it's just text (which can be provided by the creator) and links to files (which have to be provided by the creator). There's jack **** to do, how can you possibly set it up so that it takes more than a year to add one single file to it?
There's a world of difference between a multimedia page and a dynamic page. And when, as you so eloquently put it, "there's jack **** to do" 50 times a day, it tends to add up.
Actually, I'm not sure I wanna know. But you see my point- this is just stupid.
Hell, who needs interactivity, anyway? It'd get abused, have to be moderated anyway, would contract bugs, be more difficult to fix, and already has hurt the community more than it ever is gonna help, and it ain't even up yet! Ten minutes to open the file in Dreamweaver, copy/paste a table, type in a new name, reroute the link and paste in a new 50-word description, and upload the ****er. There. You've got a setup with a one-day to one-week lag between post and upload (infinitely shorter than the nonexistent one now), it's simple to maintain and fix, can be quality-controlled by admins, and for ****'s sake if you're all too lazy to do it give me the upload codes and I can manage it in my spare time. I've done more difficult ones before.
See, here's my take- I can have this system up in a week, given that someone gives the the upload information and someone else lets the modders know what's up. From what I hear and what I've seen of the realities of databases, it'll work very nearly as well as anything you can create. It can be maintained and updated in seconds, requires only the amount of effort involved in making, say, a newspost (or spamming here, since the newspost is kinda a bad example seeing how rarely you do that). And if this mythic fancy-schmantsy new uberfunctional frontpage ever comes along, you can put it on over this one just as easily as the ****ty, run-down piece of crap we have now. There's no real loss on anyone's side, I've offered to do the majority of the work (which is still next to none) already several times, and for once we won't have something that's an embarassment to everyone around. Unless you can come up with a really good, compelling reason as to why this can't or shouldn't be done (One that doesn't involve the concept of "I'm even too lazy to let someone else do all the work"), this is all just**** and excuse-making. Inertia. Whatever it is, I'm not gonna sit around waiting for a code Godot just because y'all admins are under the illusion that it's gonna pop up tomorrow, and tomorro the next day (nobody else is fooled).
Keep in mind we're not just redoing the front page - it's the whole site except for the forums. So all your acclaimed "speed" at cranking out a page an week is irrelevant (I can crank out a page in an hour - so what?) That's not what we're doing.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: TopAce on August 04, 2003, 05:24:15 am
So in a word, despite the voting has yes as the lead, there won't be a new forum?:nervous:
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Sandwich on August 04, 2003, 05:44:43 am
If an staff member posts a poll related to the site, it might happen. If anyone posts a poll, it's to see what people think. Nothing more.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: TopAce on August 04, 2003, 05:51:43 am
Max is not a staff member of HLP, so it won't be done in a word.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Shrike on August 04, 2003, 05:57:28 am
[q]The reason the main site hasn't been updated beyond news posts is because to do so is clunky and requires FTP and HTML knowledge, something that not many staffers had much knowledge of in the pre-Styxx/Sandwich era. (;)).[/q]We stopped having everyone update the pages willy-nilly after we had a case where three people were working on the same page without knowledge of who else was working, with predictable results.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Sandwich on August 04, 2003, 06:41:32 am
Quote
Originally posted by Shrike [q]The reason the main site hasn't been updated beyond news posts is because to do so is clunky and requires FTP and HTML knowledge, something that not many staffers had much knowledge of in the pre-Styxx/Sandwich era. (;)).[/q]We stopped having everyone update the pages willy-nilly after we had a case where three people were working on the same page without knowledge of who else was working, with predictable results.
:lol: - I never knew that. :nervous:
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Gloriano on August 04, 2003, 01:08:57 pm
back to topic no new forum!!!
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 04, 2003, 05:50:49 pm
Fifty times a day? What, exactly, is going on now with the main page that needs an update fifty times a day?
And who said anything about an entire day to make a page? That's my outside for uploading an entire section, factoring in my own RL job, bureaucracy, render work, and sitting around being idle. Funny how you picked up on that one and not the part where I pointed out that all the HTML code there doesn't need more than ten minutes of attention a week, maybe a day's worth at the start.
I'd ask what there really is to know about HTML nowadays when even if you don't have the time to learn basic command lines and code everything's set out in a dozen perfectly good GUI-based programs for ya, but I don't think I wanna know. Either way, why would you need, say, a dynamic mod database? Because people are incapable of emailing?
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Sandwich on August 04, 2003, 07:01:49 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9 Fifty times a day? What, exactly, is going on now with the main page that needs an update fifty times a day?
And who said anything about an entire day to make a page? That's my outside for uploading an entire section, factoring in my own RL job, bureaucracy, render work, and sitting around being idle. Funny how you picked up on that one and not the part where I pointed out that all the HTML code there doesn't need more than ten minutes of attention a week, maybe a day's worth at the start.
I'd ask what there really is to know about HTML nowadays when even if you don't have the time to learn basic command lines and code everything's set out in a dozen perfectly good GUI-based programs for ya, but I don't think I wanna know. Either way, why would you need, say, a dynamic mod database? Because people are incapable of emailing?
I need to go to bed, so I'm keeping this short.
Fifty times a day was an exaggeration, although with the new features the site will have, I wouldn't be surprised if various things were modified an average of 20 times a day... art galleries, articles, tutorials, news, hosted project news - not to mention all the stuff that will tie in with the forum.
And all those "perfectly good GUI-based programs" insist on screwing with code in one way or another - even the vaunted Dreamweaver MX. For dynamic sites, they are complete wastes of time.
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Stryke 9 on August 04, 2003, 07:07:58 pm
Granted, Dreamweaver ****s with code (wouldn't know about MX, not rich enough for a new version of anything these days). However, does that really interfere with anything important? I've never seen an irreparable problem with the code, and if I did I'd just go into Notepad and correct it, simple as that. HTML doesn't get very complex, which is how I managed to learn it in my spare time and not C.;)
And my distinction is between "will have" and need. Yeah, if you're gonna have dynamic updating, each person will have to upload their stuff individually, so twenty users updating is twenty updates. If you don't have the dynamic update because we're not implementing it yet, then ya compile all the stuff over the day, modify the pages with the new table entries, and update it all at once- one update a day, probably more like every other day since stuff doesn't move very fast around here anymore. Once a day is plenty until a better solution comes- it's a hell of a lot more than anyone gets their stuff up now, and I don't think the world will end if someone doesn't have their mod up precisely 50 seconds after they request it- people'll just swing by the next day and find it if they missed it.
You're still thinking of this with the assumption that it's an HTML replacement for the dynamic page. It's not- it's something to hold us over and get the page actually working until it is finished- which could be weeks, months, or years from now. There's simply no point in sitting, twiddling our thumbs, and letting FreeSpace (and hence HLP) get even older and deader until then. To anyone outside of the community, this is a dead site. There is nothing going on out there. So all the benefit in the world we could get from, say, the HOTU site is nothing, because the newbies come here for new stuff, see it hasn't been updated in around two years, and leave. Having a regularly updated version of the site in HTML until this dynamic code materializes doesn't hurt anything in the slightest. So... what's the problem, then? SSI code can be left as is or replaced with standard frames and the like, if nobody wants to mess with it (I don't, and you obviously don't). The news section, the only thing that would actually suffer a material disadvantage from lack of dynamic scripting (and the only thing that ever gets updated) can be left as is. Stuff like the art and mods can be slapped on in seconds with Dreamweaver (or Notepad), and uploaded in even less time. And then, when and if the dynamic page is finished, it can replace the updated site just as easily as the one that exists there now. There's no problem with the admins not "getting" HTML- if they or you don't wanna update the page, there are plenty of people willing to keep the community maintained, and in fact have been clamoring to do so for years. There's no problem with over-complex coding issues with the old site- if they prove restrictive, they can be replaced in no time flat. So... what, exactly?
Title: New Forum (now with poll)
Post by: Sandwich on August 05, 2003, 01:13:43 am
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Originally posted by Stryke 9 Granted, Dreamweaver ****s with code (wouldn't know about MX, not rich enough for a new version of anything these days). However, does that really interfere with anything important? I've never seen an irreparable problem with the code, and if I did I'd just go into Notepad and correct it, simple as that. HTML doesn't get very complex, which is how I managed to learn it in my spare time and not C.;)
Yeah, when you're coding in such a manner, having every file that is "included" via code "corrected" by DW with its missing tags can screw up a page something fierce. There's just no advantage to use a WYSIWYG program for someone like me, who both knows HTML extensively and codes in PHP. Homesite all the way. :)
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Originally posted by Stryke 9 And my distinction is between "will have" and need. Yeah, if you're gonna have dynamic updating, each person will have to upload their stuff individually, so twenty users updating is twenty updates. If you don't have the dynamic update because we're not implementing it yet, then ya compile all the stuff over the day, modify the pages with the new table entries, and update it all at once- one update a day, probably more like every other day since stuff doesn't move very fast around here anymore. Once a day is plenty until a better solution comes- it's a hell of a lot more than anyone gets their stuff up now, and I don't think the world will end if someone doesn't have their mod up precisely 50 seconds after they request it- people'll just swing by the next day and find it if they missed it.
You are correct, better a slow, late update than none at all. However, as Shrike said: "We stopped having everyone update the pages willy-nilly after we had a case where three people were working on the same page without knowledge of who else was working, with predictable results."
Besides which, none of the admins really have that predictable amount of spare time anymore, AFAIK.
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Originally posted by Stryke 9 You're still thinking of this with the assumption that it's an HTML replacement for the dynamic page. It's not- it's something to hold us over and get the page actually working until it is finished- which could be weeks, months, or years from now. There's simply no point in sitting, twiddling our thumbs, and letting FreeSpace (and hence HLP) get even older and deader until then. To anyone outside of the community, this is a dead site. There is nothing going on out there. So all the benefit in the world we could get from, say, the HOTU site is nothing, because the newbies come here for new stuff, see it hasn't been updated in around two years, and leave. Having a regularly updated version of the site in HTML until this dynamic code materializes doesn't hurt anything in the slightest. So... what's the problem, then? SSI code can be left as is or replaced with standard frames and the like, if nobody wants to mess with it (I don't, and you obviously don't). The news section, the only thing that would actually suffer a material disadvantage from lack of dynamic scripting (and the only thing that ever gets updated) can be left as is. Stuff like the art and mods can be slapped on in seconds with Dreamweaver (or Notepad), and uploaded in even less time. And then, when and if the dynamic page is finished, it can replace the updated site just as easily as the one that exists there now. There's no problem with the admins not "getting" HTML- if they or you don't wanna update the page, there are plenty of people willing to keep the community maintained, and in fact have been clamoring to do so for years. There's no problem with over-complex coding issues with the old site- if they prove restrictive, they can be replaced in no time flat. So... what, exactly?
You see, you can argue in a calm and convincing manner. :p
Tell you what. I don't have the time to go searching through the site, finding things to update (don't say it - don't say "Everything!") :lol: ), but if you want to, start a new thread to list all the things that people would like to see updated/changed. I can't promise anything aside from that I'll try and get around to some of the stuff when I can. And while you're at it, if you have any great feature suggestions for the dynamic site, make 'em known. ;)