Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Bobboau on August 16, 2003, 04:37:43 pm
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can we please get rid of the registry storage of settings, it is giveing me the most bleeding ass problems, if you don't know specificly look in the specular thread, 90% of all crashing bugs have been causes by the registry not being set (corectly) wich in 90% of the time is caused by the launcher not working (BTW it refuses to detect 1024X768 under any cercomstance), so can we have a FS.cfg or something for holding settings or something. I'm thinking someone could just change the calls in osregistry from Reg*KeyEx to one of the text file parseing codes, now it would be a lot more work than that (or I would have done it alredy) but the registry has just been an insain pain in the ass as of late, and I've never liked useing it anyway
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I agree with Bob, this registry crap has been giving Unknown Target and I all kinds of problems with the specular build. I think if we want to keep adding features to FSO while maintaning stability this needs to be changed.
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:nod:
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I don't know what this means, but if it helps people out, do it.:D
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It means... errr... you have to give all your money and cows to us!;)
:yes:
Yup I agree with Super Bob
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:yes:
Get's my vote, the registry has so far required me to reinstall the whole of FS2 twice to reset it :(
Flipside :D
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Originally posted by LAW ENFORCER
:yes:
Yup I agree with Super Bob
That should be his new title :D
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I was thinking an .ini file, similar to the games by Bioware. Of course, the only difference is the extension :p
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NO, IT MUST BE CFG!!!
:mad: :mad: :mad:
I prefer the look of the icon
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LOL I don't care, as long as it ISN'T .reg ;)
Flipside :)
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Oh, yes, PLEASE do this!
*offers first-born child to the Super-Bob*
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If you are having problems with launching you should contact me about it.
As far as getting registry out stuff goes, I dont have the time to re-write the launcher to do that. I dont see how it would magically fix everything anyway.
Perhaps you could form your actual problems into bug reports then they could be sorted out. Every part of this project has suffered from bugs, this is just another part of the process.
I think it would be quite sad to throw away the launcher but do what you want.
If there are launcher problems its because most people cant be arsed to join a tester list list to ensure that code gets a good test. Yet as soon as something interesting comes along they expect it to work properly.
Its also worth pointing out that DX8 was merged back into the main branch (so you have to use it) this early against my advise.
Do you know the numbers off possible PC configurations, verious settings options, freespace options, configurations, mod complications.
Games companys either employ multiple professional testers or are provided them by their publishing companys. Things are tested hundreds of times. There are companys out there that offer compatiblity testing on hundreds of different machines with different setups.
We dont have these resources. Im sorry if people are having problems but this thread has really annoyed me.
IT DOESNT MATTER WHERE THE OPTIONS ARE STORED, IF THEY ARE WRONG, THEY ARE WRONG!
IF YOU DONT TEST IT, DO NOT EXPECT IT TO WORK!
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if they are wrong - you need a reliably and easy way to fix it:doubt:
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
If you are having problems with launching you should contact me about it.
As far as getting registry out stuff goes, I dont have the time to re-write the launcher to do that. I dont see how it would magically fix everything anyway.
Perhaps you could form your actual problems into bug reports then they could be sorted out. Every part of this project has suffered from bugs, this is just another part of the process.
I think it would be quite sad to throw away the launcher but do what you want.
If there are launcher problems its because most people cant be arsed to join a tester list list to ensure that code gets a good test. Yet as soon as something interesting comes along they expect it to work properly.
Its also worth pointing out that DX8 was merged back into the main branch (so you have to use it) this early against my advise.
Do you know the numbers off possible PC configurations, verious settings options, freespace options, configurations, mod complications.
Games companys either employ multiple professional testers or are provided them by their publishing companys. Things are tested hundreds of times. There are companys out there that offer compatiblity testing on hundreds of different machines with different setups.
We dont have these resources. Im sorry if people are having problems but this thread has really annoyed me.
IT DOESNT MATTER WHERE THE OPTIONS ARE STORED, IF THEY ARE WRONG, THEY ARE WRONG!
IF YOU DONT TEST IT, DO NOT EXPECT IT TO WORK!
All good points too.
I understand where alot of people are coming from in this thread. From Bobboau to RandomTiger. I think the issue of this thread however is the fact that we've had a number of changes to the way we deal with the FS2 registry settings and alot of people, who are not professional testers, who probably don't have a remote idea of what goes into beta testing and Q&A process that gets retail games onto the shelves, are having trouble getting various updates to work (cut of the bleeding edge kinds of updates too - the stability that we've been able to maintain over the last few releases has been impressive to say the least - kudos to all involved).
RT...I don't think anyone is suggesting throw away the Launcher. Perhaps the end result of what people are asking for would equal that but I doubt thats what anyone meant.
I do have one suggestion for the launcher which is working very well indeed. Perhaps we need a "rebuild registry" button or option to run? Maybe thats overly complex and uneeded but most people don't want to mess with the registry and its probably recommended that they don't and largely thats what it took for me to upgrade from an older version of SCP EXE's and launcher to the latest that Bobboau and the rest of you have put out.
Remember...everything that we do with SCP is a test...an open beta. Alot of people complain that games don't have open beta tests but as you can all see...there's usually a good reason.
Keep up the positive work!
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We aren't saying there are problems with your Launcher Random, we are saying there are problems with the registry and the way it stores (or doesn't store) information.
I think the Launcher is fine, it is Windows that is giving us all nightmares.
Bobboau is not suggesting we get rid of the Launcher, merely change where it writes it's information, that way the data won't keep resetting itself etc. As I said, I don't think this is a Launcher error, I think it is a Windows thing.
It is true that sometimes, even when you use regedit to change something, it doesn't actually change, you go back into the registry and it is still saying what it did before you edited it, this problem is not limited to FS2 or your Launcher.
We aren't slagging you or your coding off, we are trying to find a way of reducing your work, not increasing it, after all, if people keep losing their joysticks etc because of Windows and it's idiosyncratic nature, surely it would make your life easier to be able to be sent a .cfg file to see if it is a code problem or just us poor mortals not having a clue what we are doing?
I don't doubt that some of these errors come from our own ignorance of how FS2_Open and the registry work, possibly doing this would allow us to decide which are which?
Flipside.
Edit : Personally, I've had very few problems with the Launcher recently, I've got it so it works, and now I leave the registry settings well alone ;)
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Garbage in, garbage out. I never actually have problems, but I am never screwing around with my fs2 machines settings.
I think the problems will be just as fun in a cfg file.
That being said, a couple of points:
1) RT, we merged the code, it is a done deal. Now we just have to get the niggling details sorted. You need to calm yourself.
2) Manipulating the registry is not fool proof and often breaks more han it solves, config files can be easier to "debug" than making a user/developer edit reg keys. There was an old support axiom we had: Never make the user manipulate the registry, It will cause problems. I think we're seeing it here, people using it in a combination of development and actual "use" and that leads to system instability. Lots can go wrong while you are in regedit.
3) If the data in/out is working, the registry is a GREAT place to store information, especially when that information is shared between multiple programs. IF the data going in and out is good.
5) If the *nix build were ever to happen, we'd need to have a alternate to the registry. Config files are an old stand by for this. But, since we've embraced windows, this is unlikely to be a reason to change things at least in the near term.
4) NOBODY suggested getting rid of the launcher. That would be inane.
Config files are easier to deal with, but the registry is a good long term/final solution. Bob: do you have an alternative?
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There are problems with my launcher, but I need comunity help to fix them (ie report and test) because they dont occur on my machine because thats where it was made and tested.
A lot of problems seem to be with initialisation, mode selection etc. Changing to a non registry solution will not solve this, most of the mode selection code is in the fs2_open exe itself and fiddling with the values where ever they are just wont cut it.
As far as all the other ones, how about people actually properly document all the problems, let me have a look at them and ask them some questions. If more than a third are really problems with the fact we are using the registry I'll look into alternitive solutions while Im eating my hat.
The launcher is really no more than a glorified registry setting program, so it would almost be throwing it away. The only other bit of complexity is the DX8 mode selection which just hasnt received the testing it needs to be foolproof. I only have two machines, GF4 and TNT2, its amazing it works on an ATI at all.
Send me your problems, please!
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Ok, want an annoying bug I keep getting?
I run the FS original launcher, and get the vidcard settings, then load the FSOpen launcher and have the 4 settings my Vid card supports. Great. I play the game and have fun.
Then I close the launcher, and go to play it some time later. Open th elauncher, and Direct 3d 5 is the default option. No big problem, but when I choose Direct 3d 8, I get about 24 different resolutions and bitrate setting to sort through. Quite annoying.
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Ok, want an annoying bug I keep getting?
I run the FS original launcher, and get the vidcard settings, then load the FSOpen launcher and have the 4 settings my Vid card supports. Great. I play the game and have fun.
Then I close the launcher, and go to play it some time later. Open th elauncher, and Direct 3d 5 is the default option. No big problem, but when I choose Direct 3d 8, I get about 24 different resolutions and bitrate setting to sort through. Quite annoying.
OK, good start, please e-mail me the problem ([email protected]) with details of your OS, gfxcard and the version number of the launcher and details of the fs2_open exe you are using.
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As soon as I get my PC up and running again.
I broke it. :(
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is there a bugzila page for the launcher?
and the problem that has caused me to want to totaly get rid of the registry (not the launcher) was that fact that I have had about twenty people come to me with this question
"hey I've been trying to get your new exe working but when it starts up I get an error that says this
'error reading registry, registry string 'VideocardFs2open' not present,
this is why you are crashing,
be sure to use the NEW launcher to set up you're registry,
make sure you run it without internet explorer or windows explorer running'
what can I do to fix this"
to wich I respond
"did you use the new launcher to set up you're registry, and make sure you run it without internet explorer or windows explorer running?'"
after wich they respond
"hey that worked!!"
now I'm happy for these people that they got it to work, but the error mesage I made was just as imformative as the mesage that I gave them.
now saveing to the registry is going to require that the launcher keeps track of everything that is useing the registry and makes sure that it stores the changes that it is going to make, then after you close it it will have to wait untill all other apps useing the registry are done before saveing the registry and actualy closeing, I think makeing these changes will be much harder than altering the medium/low level code that reads/writes the data to put it into a text file, but maybe I'm wrong. maybe it's suposed to do something like this alredy and there is just some simple bug.
as for the operation of the launcher it'self, its not bad, the only bug I have is it not ditecting the 1024X768 options (ATI Radeon 9800 pro 128, athlon xp 3000+, XP home), but the big problem is the registry isn't getting saved, or it's getting overiten by other programs, wich I don't thik is realy you'r falt
now just to make this clear, I am not calling you a bad programer or anything, in fact you're probly the best programer we have, we wouldn't be half way to were we are today without you, and we won't go half as far if you arn't with us. I am mearly sudgesting that there may be a more reliable place to store the configuration settings than the registry. however you probly do know better than me, so if you think you can get this resolved useing the registry then I will accept your conclusion.
(you know now would be a good time to remind me of my file editor, aurora, and it's notorius operation)
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Originally posted by Bobboau
(you know now would be a good time to remind me of my file editor, aurora, and it's notorius operation)
Speaking of which, you finally changed the spelling in your sig.:D
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I remember running a buggy version of the launcher several months ago; it screwed up the settings somehow so that nothing worked - either vanilla FS2 or FS2_open. A registry restore fixed it, and the updated launcher released shortly afterwards worked perfectly.
Since not everyone knows how to do this, IMO a "registry reset" button (as was suggested) would probably be a good addition. Something that clears out all the garbage entries and puts things to a pre-SCP state. That way, everyone running the launcher will have a clean base to start from.
Keep the registry. If you know what you're doing, it'll work fine. Adding a CFG file would be more work and require that people keep track of code in two different places.
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I don't consider what I'm about to describe to be a bug, but thought I'd share -
In the launcher in D3D8 mode, it detects many high resolutions that fs2 can't run. Now, I had the good sense to say - naw jimmy, fs2 cannae run at 1280*1024, but not all fs2 users would know this, they may think fs2_open does so.
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Anything and everything goes into Bugzilla. The small amount of time lost by marking something "this is not a bug" is nothing compared to the frustration when someone doesn't think to add a genuine bug.
As for your bit, vyper, that sounds like a minor bug in itself. Make a bugzilla entry saying "The launcher detects resolutions that aren't valid."
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I'm aware of the too many resolutions problem. I messed up somewhere when I was playing with code to run FS2 in different resolutions. It can actually be quite annoying because some gfx cards do so many modes.
I will look into this registry changing thing, it would be a lot easier if someone who has experienced this could replicate it and contact me.
Could people please e-mail bugs to me so I have an offline copy or better, I believe bugzilla has a launcher section and it might even be setup to inform me when a bug is entered.
Until I have write access to the repository though my powers in this matter will be limited.
Sorry if I was a bit cranky earlier but everyone seemed very quick to bash the current system without actually knowing what was exactly going wrong.
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when the registry gives me crap, i simply remove the settings from the registry, ron the v launcher then run the new launcher. though i wouldnt mind having a cfg file. i think the idea of having the os store every setting for every program in one file (actually a couple) is kinda dumb. but if it works i dont really care where the settings are.
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How do we access bugzilla?
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we should have a stickythread that has links to everything
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We do.
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,14983.0.html
Bugzilla is in Inquisitor's sig.
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ok, insert some major cursing here.
my FS2 is a non HOTU rip, and i don't have any registry settings, unless the V launcher makes those. also, i tried running the launcher without IE or windows explorer on, but it didn't work. FYI, it produced a ini file with some wierd text, but didn't do anything usefull. so if the V launcher doesn't make the right settings, i am lost.
and i really do prefer an ini or cfg file above the registry, because you won't rely on windows as much, and to be honest, relying on windows is not good.
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It's a windows game (for now), so, that's just a silly thing to say.
And bugzilla email notifications seem nerfed now, working on that as well.
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Originally posted by kasperl
ok, insert some major cursing here.
my FS2 is a non HOTU rip, and i don't have any registry settings, unless the V launcher makes those. also, i tried running the launcher without IE or windows explorer on, but it didn't work. FYI, it produced a ini file with some wierd text, but didn't do anything usefull. so if the V launcher doesn't make the right settings, i am lost.
and i really do prefer an ini or cfg file above the registry, because you won't rely on windows as much, and to be honest, relying on windows is not good.
The launcher actually reads the registry and gives you a good rundown of every entry that FreeSpace 2 has in its directory. Some are important others are not...the Volition launcher creates its own set and the new SCP launcher has a somewhat separate setup from the Volition one.
Now, make sure that you select your video card, your mode (res and bit depth), and so on and so forth. Apply that...hell, even press OK sometimes....and relaunch the launcher. Check the video settings again and then try and run the EXE (make sure you have the EXE selected). I had trouble...but a bit of fighting helped me....you need to fight more and fret less :)
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Originally posted by kasperl
ok, insert some major cursing here.
my FS2 is a non HOTU rip, and i don't have any registry settings, unless the V launcher makes those. also, i tried running the launcher without IE or windows explorer on, but it didn't work. FYI, it produced a ini file with some wierd text, but didn't do anything usefull. so if the V launcher doesn't make the right settings, i am lost.
OK, dont change anything on your system and give me an e-mail. This dont use explorer message is crap and I dont know where thats coming from, probably core OS stuff.
This is a bug, it needs to be fixed thats all.
I wont have time to look at any of this stuff till the weekend.
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my joystick STILL isn't working, even after a reinstall, and it's driving me up a wall. I would LOVE it if someone would PLEASE remove the registry!
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Then work with someone over IM or whatever until it works. It's called troubleshooting. You can't fix stuff with a snap of your fingers - certainly not something as complicated as re-coding the entire way FS2 handles the registry. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by RandomTiger
OK, dont change anything on your system and give me an e-mail. This dont use explorer message is crap and I dont know where thats coming from, probably core OS stuff.
This is a bug, it needs to be fixed thats all.
I wont have time to look at any of this stuff till the weekend.
after slapping my case, cursing windows, and going mad, something worked, and the registry is set up.
i haven't got a clue why.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
my joystick STILL isn't working, even after a reinstall, and it's driving me up a wall. I would LOVE it if someone would PLEASE remove the registry!
Guess I should have mentioned this before but my launcher does not yet cover the full functionality of the old one. Sue me, Im doing 50 hour weeks at work and Im tierd.
Run the original launcher.
See if your joystick works with V's FS2.exe
If it doesnt its nothing to do with me.
Run my launcher and try fs2_open.
Still have problems, then e-mail me with your system specs.
I am taking this all on board and will release a new exe when I can that covers all problems that people e-mail me with. My sister is visiting me this weekend so it may have to wait a bit longer.
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Try running UpdateLauncher.exe, this will complain and then start the FS2 setup proggy. Set your Joystick etc, apply but don't run the game.
Now exit the Launcher and run the FS2 open launcher. ONLY set your video with the launcher, and apply, don't touch the registry at all. Now run the game.
Since I did this, I have had NO problems whatsoever with the Launcher, apart from the choosing the resolution thing, but that doesn't really bother me, since 1024 x 768 x 32 is at the bottom of the first page of the list for me, so it's pretty easy to find :)
Flipside :D
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OK, new Launcher is up.
Hopefully should fix the too many modes thing.
Wont fix but might throw some light on the joystick problems.
http://mysite.freeserve.com/thomaswhittaker/c_code/freespace/Launcher.rar
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Yep, that fixed the resolution problem just fine :)
Thanks RT.
Flipside :D
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OK, keep the bugs coming in...
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I'm still not getting a joystick in your EXEs after what you said to do Bob.
My system specs are PIII 800 Mhz, Windows XP Home, 256 MB of RAM, an ATi Radeon 9000 128 MB.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
I'm still not getting a joystick in your EXEs after what you said to do Bob.
My system specs are PIII 800 Mhz, Windows XP Home, 256 MB of RAM, an ATi Radeon 9000 128 MB.
Did you run the original launcher?
Did my new launcher put up any error messages about the joystick?
Does your joystick work with the original FS2.exe you bought on your CD?
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I've deleted the registry settings for FS2, then ran the FS2 launcher followed by the FSO launcher (Phreak's launcher), when I try to run fs_open_s I get a blank error message titled 'Error initializing Direct3D' the other problem is the Anti-Aliasing dropdown menu is blank, but with the old launcher it wasn't.
PIII 866 Mhz
256MB RAM
GeForce4 Ti4600
Windows XP
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Ok, one tiny thing, when I run the launcher, it still seems to default to DX5. Once I select DX8, it automatically goes to the right resolution, so it is only a mouse click away :) So it's just me being lazy, but I thought I would mention it ;)
Flipside :D
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I'll check about the new launcher running with the old FS2 exe, but, no, it didn't put up any error messages, and, yea, I ran the original launcher.
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I deleted the registry entries for the game settings - only the ones that the launcher creates when you first set up fs2. Then I ran the origional launcher, then ran the new launcher and set it up with the appropriate options for my system - solved the joystick woes, but nothing worked until deleting the old registry settings...I'm starting to believe that windows settings require knowledge of alchemy and/or voodoo.
Anyhow, system specs if interested:
800 pIII
1024 meg ram
Windows XP (corp)
GeForce4 4200TI, 64meg
Saitek X-45 Joystick
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:eek: YOU HAVE 1000 MEGS OF RAM??!!!!!!!!!1
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He's got 2 512 cards... not hard to do, just a little costly...
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I'v got a gig of RAM :D
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Actually it is 4 256 cards...but same difference. Not very costly compared to some other upgrades - ram is cheaper these days, and win XP will handle the extra memory just fine. Yes it does make a difference - I can get away with higher settings in games than my card will usually handle with playable framerates. It only really boggs down bunches when I run the dual monitors in game.
[EDIT] I should add that with a gig of ram the computer almost never touches the page file, which further helps the performance.
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I've got 768 and one day I WILL replace that 256 with a 512 ;)
Flipside :D
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Please take this to a different thead.
This is why I prefer people to e-mail me.
Unknown Target, e-mail me please.
[email protected]
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my laptop supports a gig of ram, but it only runs 256 right now. witn a 2.4 ghz processor, i think it deserves a max out. now to find a place that sells a couple 512 mb 200 pin ddr pc266 small outline dual inline memory modules real cheap and im set. i got 512 in my other computer and it really makes a difference. the most ram i ever used was 2 gigs in four sticks of 512. i put them in a server i built (dual 2.0 ghz xeon). i only got to use it for testing purposes, but i stuck in a copy of q3a and it ran pretty good, and with only 8 meg video.