Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on August 19, 2003, 05:17:11 pm
-
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A15067-2003Aug19.html
:blah: :nervous: :hopping:
-
What do people see in causing others harm like this?
It's just beyond me somethings as to why :(
-
As long as Jews are in Israel, Muslims will keep trying to drive them out and Jews will retaliate against Muslims. Religious hatred fuels this cycle of violence and death, and it will not stop in the forseeable future. Religion is a cruel thing that divides people and causes bloodshed. I believe that the world will be a better place if organized religion (but not spirituality) is exterminated. Not that such a thing would ever actually happen (it won't).
-
What gets me the most is that most of theses people couldnt care less about what these people are fighting for. All they want to do is live their lives out in peace. But I suppose thats too much to ask from some of these assholes.
-
Seems to me that most of these groups work on the Theory of 'Hate the Leaders, but kill the unprotected followers, regardless of whether they agree with their leaders or not'.
Flipside.
-
Originally posted by Thorn
What gets me the most is that most of theses people couldnt care less about what these people are fighting for. All they want to do is live their lives out in peace. But I suppose thats too much to ask from some of these assholes.
Wait, who? You can't use non-specific terms for both parties, or it gets confusing.
I think that this is a terrible thing which has happened. But no more terrible than when the IDF goes into the camps and starts shooting. A bomb or a bullet, its the same. The Israel/Palentine situation is really one of the few conflicts in which right and wrong are not clear cut. One one hand, Israel is screwing the Palestinians bigtime. On the other hand, Israelis have to live in constant fear, and everyone is a potential target. I have an great-aunt in Israel, aswell as a family friend + kids, so yeah...it sucks..
-
Originally posted by Rictor
The Israel/Palentine situation is really one of the few conflicts in which right and wrong are not clear cut.
This is why I wasnt specific......
-
Originally posted by Rictor
The Israel/Palentine situation is really one of the few conflicts in which right and wrong are not clear cut.
I think if you look at the facts, very few conflicts are so clear cut--especially when the US is involved.
-
Simple solution: "Stop fighting or we nuke the **** out of Jerusalem".
Nukes are supposed to be a deterant, right? So go use them to deter.
I mean, who the **** is gonna stop you?
Once you've proved your willing to use nukes, no-one will dare touch you because they know it'd just start a nuclear holocaust.
-
Originally posted by an0n
Simple solution: "Stop fighting or we nuke the **** out of Jerusalem".
Nukes are supposed to be a deterant, right? So go use them to deter.
I mean, who the **** is gonna stop you?
Once you've proved your willing to use nukes, no-one will dare touch you because they know it'd just start a nuclear holocaust.
The rest of the world will shun you and treat you as an outcast. Nuclear warfare is pretty much considered a crime against humanity.
-
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
The rest of the world will shun you and treat you as an outcast. Nuclear warfare is pretty much considered a crime against humanity.
nuclear 'Deterrants' never stopped conflict at all...
alfred nobel had the same hope when he invented TNT..
-
Damn. These people are morons.
Well, let's be optimistic. At least it's not as bad as the situation in Israel in the book Heart of the Comet. The current religious fanatics can't afford massive mercenary companies....
-
Originally posted by Woolie Wool
The rest of the world will shun you and treat you as an outcast. Nuclear warfare is pretty much considered a crime against humanity.
Last I checked, so is genocide.
This is a case of two wrongs not making a right, but also not making much more of a wrong than just one.
-
To see what other non-Israeli populations were reading about the situation, I looked up "egypt news" in Google and the first result led me to the Middle East Times, a "...weekly source for news and independent analysis of politics, business, religion and culture
in the Middle East."
Ok so far.... I open up the front page.... hmm, can't see any mentions of the bombing. Let's explore.
*click* (http://www.metimes.com/2K3/issue2003-33/reg/israel_and_palestinians.htm)
[q]First paragraph reads:
Israeli and Palestinian security officials sought Friday to calm tensions after a round of violence that dented a seven-week-old truce and virtually halted efforts to implement a US-backed peace plan.[/q]
That's it. Not a single mention of the bombing yesterday.
[q]I think that this is a terrible thing which has happened. But no more terrible than when the IDF goes into the camps and starts shooting.[/q]
That's what you guys see reported in the news? :confused: No wonder Israel gets so much flak. :sigh: :doubt:
EDIT: Hmm, I just noticed the date on that article - August 15th. So I guess it can't be taken as a true picture of the current situation. The main question in my mind is, when they do update, what will they report on the bombing?
-
Well, what we see or hear more often is the IDF bulldozing the family homes of suspected militants. We get that fairly often. And the helicopter gunships firing missiles into Palestinian villages, that's popular too.
-
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Well, what we see or hear more often is the IDF bulldozing the family homes of suspected militants. We get that fairly often.
"Suspected militants", eh? No, we bulldoze the homes of suicide bombers. Their families get tons of monetary reperations for their "sacrifice", much of which is poured into the house itself. I was part of an operation to arrest a terrorist in Jenin earlier this year, brother to a suicide bomber. Anyway, this house - in the middle of nothing less than a slum - was unbelieveably luxurious.
So yeah, it's those houses we bulldoze, taking away that incentive to blow our pizza parlors and buses up.
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
And the helicopter gunships firing missiles into Palestinian villages, that's popular too.
....at known terrorists, yes. Call them assasinations, if you will - I do. Israel assasinates terrorist leaders. Unfortunately, sometimes there are innocent men, women and children injured and killed in the process. Where such casualties are likey, Israel has called off these targetted assasinations, to avoid those casualties. When it happens anyway, Israel sends condolences (which never really condoled me from any side, but I guess it's expected - that's politics for you). These terrorists, on the other hand, intentionally target men, women and children.
Is none of this mentioned in the media? :confused:
-
Bad news makes good news. :doubt:
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
So yeah, it's those houses we bulldoze, taking away that incentive to blow our pizza parlors and buses up.
Surely you mean 'make them angrier and want to blow more Israelis up'?
-
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Surely you mean 'make them angrier and want to blow more Israelis up'?
Well, yeah - the explanation is one of those theoretical "this should cause that" things. Listen, I'm not saying that everything Israel does is right - far from it. But when it comes to dealing with and discouraging suicide bombers, I'm all for wrapping them in pigskin (which annulls their going to heave with the 70 - or is it 80? - eternal virgins waiting one them).
But if we did that, of course, the world would not have it. Whatever.
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
That's what you guys see reported in the news? :confused: No wonder Israel gets so much flak. :sigh: :doubt:
No, thats exactly what we don't see in the news. CNN, Fox, MSNBC etc etc are all very pro-Israeli. That's why most people think thats its a Devils vs Angels fight over there. Most of the anti-Israeli ( if reporting on Israeli military operations can be called anti-Israeli ) news that I read comes from Haaretz (sp?) so I don't think you can claim some kind of foreign bias.
Over here (I'm in Canada, its a bit better than in the US I imagine, bit still ) anyone who wants to see both sides of the story is labeled "anti-Israeli". There are 2 facts which I think are the cause of my sympathy for the Palestinian people.
1. The average Palestinian can be said to live in much poorer conditions than the average Israeli. This includes checkpoint, barriers, as well as food, housing etc etc.
2. During the past 3 years, around 350 Isrealis have been killed in suicide bombings. During that time, over 2000+ Palestinians have been killed by the IDF. There is probably quite a lot more to it than that, but numbers don't lie.
As I have mentioned, I am not altogether on anyone's side. I feel great sypmathy for what the Israeli people go thorough every day. As I've said, I have family there, and I by no means support suicide bombings. I simply think that there is more to it than : Isreal=good, Palestine=bad, which is how most of the media over here presents it.
And that "security fence", thats a whole other story...
-
Originally posted by Rictor
No, thats exactly what we don't see in the news. CNN, Fox, MSNBC etc etc are all very pro-Israeli.
I can confirm that. Most 'official' news channels are pro-Israeli here in Australia. It's the 'inside stories' or 'undercover reporters' who like to paint darker pictures, mostly. I hardly believe any of it. :doubt:
-
here, in holland, the news is as objective as possible, IMHO. it sometimes carry's a slight anti israel note, but not much more.
as for the conflict, i have a large sympathy for all the victims. and i hve a large antipathy against all the agressors. i do not agree with any side, i agree or disagree with parts of each side.
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
Well, yeah - the explanation is one of those theoretical "this should cause that" things. Listen, I'm not saying that everything Israel does is right - far from it. But when it comes to dealing with and discouraging suicide bombers, I'm all for wrapping them in pigskin (which annulls their going to heave with the 70 - or is it 80? - eternal virgins waiting one them).
But if we did that, of course, the world would not have it. Whatever.
They supposedly get 72 virgins in Islamic heaven.
-
Originally posted by Rictor
No, thats exactly what we don't see in the news. CNN, Fox, MSNBC etc etc are all very pro-Israeli. That's why most people think thats its a Devils vs Angels fight over there. Most of the anti-Israeli ( if reporting on Israeli military operations can be called anti-Israeli ) news that I read comes from Haaretz (sp?) so I don't think you can claim some kind of foreign bias.
Eh? I'm curious - how do you get Ha'Aretz? I had thought it was a local/national (same thing in Israel) paper. Or do you check their website?
Originally posted by Rictor
1. The average Palestinian can be said to live in much poorer conditions than the average Israeli. This includes checkpoint, barriers, as well as food, housing etc etc.
Do a little bit of research and you'll find that the cause of Palestinian poverty (and it really is a crappy level of life they have, unfortunately) is largely the PLO. Under Israeli control, pre-Oslo, the Jews and Palestinians did business together, visited each other's restaurants, etc etc. In the post-Oslo era, however, the hatred taught in Palestinian schools incited violence against Israelis, which incurred the security measures Israel took (checkpoints and the like).
As for the rest, much of the funds (some of it Israeli funds, I might add) destined for the Palestinians was funneled by Arafat to various other purposes, one being funding the Fatah.
I've manned many a checkpoint, and I'm not being dramatic or anything when I say that my heart truly went out to the teachers, schoolchildren, and elderly who were forced to wait in ridiculously long lines, simply because we received intel of a suicide bomber trying to get into Israel, and the long lines we were creating by meticulously checking every single car and person were supposed to be a deterrent.
Originally posted by Rictor
2. During the past 3 years, around 350 Isrealis have been killed in suicide bombings. During that time, over 2000+ Palestinians have been killed by the IDF. There is probably quite a lot more to it than that, but numbers don't lie.
Although I don't know the exact numbers by heart, this is at least approximately right - it's the same idea, at least. Many more Palestinians have been killed than Israelis. However, find some source that breaks down those numbers, will you? I'd like to see the % of unarmed Palestinians and Israelis killed as bystanders to something as opposed to the numbers of armed casualties - Israeli soldiers (we are, after all, valid targets according to wartime rules) and Palestinian... erm... whatever you call civillians when they're firing on military units. :rolleyes: I'll wager you'l find the results very interesting.
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
and Palestinian... erm... whatever you call civillians when they're firing on military units. :rolleyes:
I think the term you're looking for is militant...
-
Originally posted by Turnsky
nuclear 'Deterrants' never stopped conflict at all...
alfred nobel had the same hope when he invented TNT..
If there hadn't of been nukes, war between Soviet Russia and NATO wouldn't of been seen as ending the world and so, they'd be more likey to go to war.
-
I'm not going to post what I think yet again. We have the same bloody debate every single time some bugger blows something up, on either side. Enough, please - I'm depressed enough as it is - I don't need the petty squabbles of two identical peoples adding to the world of **** humanity's in already... :(
-
Jeez. Sorry that you have to be out there sandy...
-
Originally posted by Thorn
I think the term you're looking for is militant...
How can that be when "militant" is the term the news networks use for people belonging to terrorist organizations?
-
I'm fed up of this. Sarnie, take a step back from yourself and look again at the situation. Your two countries are like a couple of kids who refuse to share. Both sides ought to grow up.
-
Originally posted by Zeronet
If there hadn't of been nukes, war between Soviet Russia and NATO wouldn't of been seen as ending the world and so, they'd be more likey to go to war.
There's the "If-we-can't-have-it-nobody-can" mentality to worry about. Or people who won't believe anyone will have the balls to use nukes.
What do you do if they don't stop?
-
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
I'm fed up of this. Sarnie, take a step back from yourself and look again at the situation. Your two countries are like a couple of kids who refuse to share. Both sides ought to grow up.
Ok, I'll stop then. :rolleyes:
And what two countries?? Dang, man - if they had a country, and this sh*t was still going on, we would have taken it as an official decleration of war and recaptured the disputed territory... again.
Come out of your own hole and put it in a perspective that's more close to home... what would the UK be doing if there were suicide bombers blowing up those red double-decker buses, or going on shooting sprees with grenades and Ak-47's in the Underground stations? Gimme a frikkin break. :hopping:
-
We probably would have that kind of situation if we went and did to Irish villages what you guys do to Palaestinian villages after a bomb, even if it was in the name of rooting out terrorists. Look, I'm not bashing Israel anymore than I would Palestine if we had a Palestinian member who brought up as many of these kind of arguments like you seem to. You're both as bad as each other.
But like I said, you need to step back from yourself. Try to deal with the situaiton - how can I put this - not as an Israeli. The whole affair just looks pointless from the outside. Palestinians kill jews, jews kill Palestinians. What's the difference? They did it first? You're in a uniform?
I'm going to bed. There'd better be world peace when I wake up or you're all going to be for it...
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
How can that be when "militant" is the term the news networks use for people belonging to terrorist organizations?
Thats just what the media calls them.. look the word up...
-
Do a little bit of research and you'll find that the cause of Palestinian poverty (and it really is a crappy level of life they have, unfortunately) is largely the PLO. Under Israeli control, pre-Oslo, the Jews and Palestinians did business together, visited each other's restaurants, etc etc.
I know this situation. I am victim of it too. I live in sweden but i am born and raised in Bosnia. We bosnians also wanted our own self ruled country but the other half of the bosnias people serbs wnated to stay united with the yugoslavia. From here you know the rest.
What i want say with this is that i understand mikes (sandwich) situation.
The suicide bombing in my own opinion isn't going to stop until every organisation like HAMAS and ANXA d not come to the negotiating table and agree to some kind of peace.
We all know that people that are sucide bombers are not afraid to sacrfise thier lives for their cause. They think what they are doing is the right thing to do. Israels strategy is to kill their leaders, we now know that is not a very effective method. If they killone leader there will allways be another one to take his place.
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
Ok, I'll stop then. :rolleyes:
And what two countries?? Dang, man - if they had a country, and this sh*t was still going on, we would have taken it as an official decleration of war and recaptured the disputed territory... again.
Come out of your own hole and put it in a perspective that's more close to home... what would the UK be doing if there were suicide bombers blowing up those red double-decker buses, or going on shooting sprees with grenades and Ak-47's in the Underground stations? Gimme a frikkin break. :hopping:
Firstly, apathy never solved anything.
Secondly, we did have a terrorist problem. And our terrorists weren't stupid enough to go blowing themselves up, so we had to deal with people with experience. And y'know what we did? Butchered the ****ers until they decided it was better to sit and talk than try to **** with us.
Thirdly, all UK schools now have big-ass reinforced steel doors and security cameras and gates. Thus, no school shootings.
Fourthly, AK-47's suck balls.
-
AK-74s are worse.
-
The Bible, especially the apocalyptic books, mentioned the war between the "Sons of Ishmael" and the "Sons of Isaac". You're right; it is a jihad. It cannot be stopped before the LORD of the universe puts a stop to it Himself.
Anyway, in deep analysis, I think that Sharon is above all not asking for peace. Why? Because he wishes to restore the House of Israel to its formal glory as it was under King David and King Solomon. Mark my words, he will not accomplish it.
When the UN established the State of Israel back in '49 (I think...), a Saudi official mentioned that if the State of Israel is established, all Muslims will lay siege to it until it is no more. The Alkoran mentions the killing of all infidels, hence the Christian and the Jewish population in the Middle East. By sacrifising themselves, they are rewarded in heaven with 72 virgin brides. (Imagine 72 Middle-Eastern women in bikinis with sashi veils dancing in twirls with Hindi music in the background.)
-
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
We probably would have that kind of situation if we went and did to Irish villages what you guys do to Palaestinian villages after a bomb, even if it was in the name of rooting out terrorists.
But that's all I'm trying to get across, DG... what you hear reported in the news... the IDF comitting a massacre in Jenin, etc... isn't completely true. And I'm not claiming this just because I heard it on the Israeli news, remember - I was there. 13 fellow reservists were ambushed and killed in the refugee camp part of Jenin because they were going from house to house on foot to avoid "collateral damage", remember. They could have just blown up house after shanty after hut from inside a tank or whatever, but no matter how cliched it sounds - yes, even to me - the IDF has a respect for lives far above most other militaries - the US and UN militaries not excluded.
Terrorists hide out in the midst of civillian areas, both to deter strikes against them, as well as to make their enemies look bad in the world media because of any civillian casualties.
Originally posted by an0n
Firstly, apathy never solved anything.
Secondly, we did have a terrorist problem. And our terrorists weren't stupid enough to go blowing themselves up, so we had to deal with people with experience. And y'know what we did? Butchered the ****ers until they decided it was better to sit and talk than try to **** with us.
Thirdly, all UK schools now have big-ass reinforced steel doors and security cameras and gates. Thus, no school shootings.
Fourthly, AK-47's suck balls.
Apathy? What/who's being apathetic?
2 - My point exactly. Did the world complain?
3 - Really? I never knew that. Our schools have security guards at the entrances; they may have metel detector gates now, I don't know. Haven't been to school in a year or 6. ;)
4 - 'Course they do. Everyone knows that AK-47's are terrible weapons... why'd you even feel the need to mention it? :p
Originally posted by Rampage
Anyway, in deep analysis, I think that Sharon is above all not asking for peace. Why? Because he wishes to restore the House of Israel to its formal glory as it was under King David and King Solomon. Mark my words, he will not accomplish it.
I dunno about that one, but of course I ain't a mind-reader. Of course, in every single war declared against us, we've gained territory, so perhaps you're right.
*whistles 'By the Rivers of Babylon'...* ;)
Originally posted by Rampage
When the UN established the State of Israel back in '49 (I think...), a Saudi official mentioned that if the State of Israel is established, all Muslims will lay siege to it until it is no more. The Alkoran mentions the killing of all infidels, hence the Christian and the Jewish population in the Middle East.
May 1948. The existance of a Jewish state, especially with the military defeats the armies of the Islamic nations have suffered at the hands of the IDF, is basically a *****slap in the face of their religion. It's basically saying to them that "The God of the Jews is greater than Allah".
And BTW, in Bethlehem there is grafitti (sp?) that says "First the Saturday people, then the Sunday people". Go figure.
-
Well what I want to know is what happens to the Saturday Night people? ;7
Uh, yeh maybe I can't lighten this too much afterall.
the IDF has a respect for lives far above most other militaries - the US and UN militaries not excluded.
No offence Sandy, but I'll take the British Army any day. :D Altho the Black & Tans brigade er.... um.... :nervous:
-
Originally posted by vyper
Well what I want to know is what happens to the Saturday Night people? ;7
We kick their ****in asses and then turn on the Sunday people.
-
You know, it occoured to me today that I recently told an0n to try living in a country before telling it how to fix its problems. So on that note, I'll shut up about Israel and Palestine. But Sarnie mate, just... try and play nicely down there, eh?
-
why to kill each others?
-
bad english
-
Originally posted by Holy Imperial Gloriano
why to kill each others?
'Cos they both think they're right, and are too stupid/stubborn/have their heads wedged too far up their own arseholes to realise that it's incredibly petty and narrow-minded to fight over a tiny patch of land, when they could both have their own country, or even (shocking idea, this) actually co-operate with each other, talk to each other civilly and live peacefully together without minding that their religions are slightly different.
-
Originally posted by pyro-manic
'Cos they both think they're right, and are too stupid/stubborn/have their heads wedged too far up their own arseholes to realise that it's incredibly petty and narrow-minded to fight over a tiny patch of land, when they could both have their own country, or even (shocking idea, this) actually co-operate with each other, talk to each other civilly and live peacefully together without minding that their religions are slightly different.
All I'll say to this is: when has Israel initiated a war against her neighbors?
Draw your own conclusions.
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
All I'll say to this is: when has Israel initiated a war against her neighbors?
Draw your own conclusions.
Don't react too bad to this but Sandwich, thats a "he started it first" argument. It doesn't work in Primary School and it won't work in the middle east. :p
-
This is exactly it - the situation reminds me of when my brother and I used to fight constantly, as brothers do. The aim was to get 'the last hit' then leg it so the other one couldn't get you back whilst chanting 'got you last'. The Middle East is pretty much like that but with bombs.
-
Originally posted by Sandwich
Well, yeah - the explanation is one of those theoretical "this should cause that" things. Listen, I'm not saying that everything Israel does is right - far from it. But when it comes to dealing with and discouraging suicide bombers, I'm all for wrapping them in pigskin (which annulls their going to heave with the 70 - or is it 80? - eternal virgins waiting one them).
But if we did that, of course, the world would not have it. Whatever.
Hey, you have my support on that. I'm a big fan of the use of pigskin as punisment for terrorists.