Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Woolie Wool on August 21, 2003, 02:29:42 pm
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Just a thought: Could it be that Christian fundamentalism is the reason why half the world hates the US? I absolutely HATE Christian fundamentalists like Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell. They must be the most annoying and intolerable people on this earth. I want to banish the whole lot of them to Antarctica.
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i doubt it... the US isn't all christians... only the majority is...
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Originally posted by Hippo
i doubt it... the US isn't all christians... only the majority is...
And we run on the majority... therefore it would be seen as a christian country.
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I'm talking about fundie Christians. They're a minority, but an extremely vocal one, so there's no escape from their ramblings
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Just a thought: Could it be that Christian fundamentalism is the reason why half the world hates the US? I absolutely HATE Christian fundamentalists like Fred Phelps and Jerry Falwell. They must be the most annoying and intolerable people on this earth. I want to banish the whole lot of them to Antarctica.
Ding! Ding! Ding! ...and the prize goes to Woolie Wool :)
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Thats half the bloody problem.. People are allowed to be hypocrites..
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[Southern Accent] You boys don't know what yer talkin' about! We people in the se'outh (not where I live) t'aint all fundies. Yaw watch yer mouth. Them ragheads are 'gainst the US because they're a bunch of loonies wanthing satisfaection from them virgins in heaven. Blame 'em![/Southern Accent]
There is absolute no problem with Christian fundamentalism. I actually support it right out! What I dislike is California as the leading banner in the race toward athiesm and liberalism. "Free condoms for all 13 year olds. Have pre-marital sex! Find out your sexual orientation by bringing in a pair of your mom's slippers to class tomorrow. Let's throw away our faith in Christ and embrace money and Hollywood stars who can't even differentiate a 'b' from a 'd' (AKA Tom Cruise)! Lets trample our Constitution and our conservative values in place for new age liberalism! Lets all read Harry Potter, practice witchcraft and devil worship, read your astrology in the morning, but NOT THE BIBLE!!!!" These people make me sick!
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Ah yes, harry potter, the book series of evil devil worship, demonic blackarts and prostitution. :doubt:
You aren't ****ing serious, are you?
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I hope he's not. I really hate stupid people.
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Meh, i can quote to you over 50 stories from Marks Gospel, i had to learn how stories by heart for my RE exam. Though im a moderate catholic, not a fundamentalist or anything.
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I don't understand Catholicism. Jesus specifically says to worship no one but himself(the Trinity), yet Catholics have their own set of books and worship saints and Mary, etc. It's clearly wrong.
I'd like to see your end of the argument Zeronet :)
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yeah, another religion thread ahead.
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bout' time. I missed the majority of the first one. :doubt:
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Originally posted by DragonClaw
I'd like to see your end of the argument Zeronet :)
*is curious as well*
As for Christian Fundamentalists.... meh. I don't run into them over here, but the whole concept of (*switches topic to TV evangelisim*) TV evangelisim is just... missing something. Christians talk about witnessing to someone, but many ignore the very meaning of the word "witness". Su-tehp can give a great definition, I'm sure, but basically, I don't see how me handing out tracts to passers-by on a street corner, or preaching into a TV camera to people you've never met and who will never meet you, constitutes a witness of God's love.
IMHO, the people I'm a witness to are those I see on a day-by-day basis - my unit-mates in the army, the bus driver, the corner market owner, the landlord - these are people who get the chance to know me, see how I live those respective parts and aspects of my life, and eventually ask "So, what's different about you?" That's being a witness.
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Hmm, im Roman Catholic, went to a Catholic Highschool, am going to a Catholic College, but i have no idea what these other books are, unless you mean Luke etc's gospels and as far as i recall, have never worshipped a Saint or Mary, as i would God. You'll have to explain a bit more what you mean, i don't exactly equate the 'Hail Mary' prayer, as worshipping Mary as if she were a God and i do go Church when i can.
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Here's some more people that should be sent to Antarctica:
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,16951.0.html
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Of course Rampage is going to go on a rampage on the Episcopal Church USA because of the fact that a recently appointed bishop is gay. :lol:
Anyways, someone should pass Rampage the peace pipe :p
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One thing that always confused me was the Catholic obsession about not using a condom. This was based on a remark made by Jesus about not spilling seed on barren ground.....
Problem was, this was after his disciples asked him how to spread the word of the christian God. My own opinion is that he was saying 'don't preach to those who aren;t prepared to listen'.
Maybe if people had taken things in this context, the world would be a fair bit more peaceful, and probably less crowded ;)
Flipside :D
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Originally posted by Zeronet
Hmm, im Roman Catholic, went to a Catholic Highschool, am going to a Catholic College, but i have no idea what these other books are, unless you mean Luke etc's gospels
From http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu57.htm
As a general rule, the Protestant Holy Bibles contain only 66 Books while the Catholic Holy Bibles contain 73 Books, 46 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. When the Protestant Holy Bibles do list the additional seven Books, they are listed under the title of "Apocrypha" which means "hidden books.
I remember going over this in Old Testament class, and there were quite a lot of contradictions in the added "Apocrypha" of the Catholic Church. I remember one of them, very vaguely, though I can't remember the name of the King or which empire it was. But I think it said a certain King of the Assyrian empire, while the known fact was he was the King of the Persian empire(he was referred this in the Bible and it's proven in diggings). I don't really remember any more, too long ago :blah:
Prayer really is a form of worship in and of itself, and so praying to a saint really means you are considering the saint a 'god' or 'idol' in and of itself, so even praying to saints is disobeying the Word.
I need to learn to word my sentences better :ick
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Originally posted by Flipside
One thing that always confused me was the Catholic obsession about not using a condom. This was based on a remark made by Jesus about not spilling seed on barren ground.....
Problem was, this was after his disciples asked him how to spread the word of the christian God. My own opinion is that he was saying 'don't preach to those who aren;t prepared to listen'.
Maybe if people had taken things in this context, the world would be a fair bit more peaceful, and probably less crowded ;)
Flipside :D
Um, that was God to some old testement person, possibly Isaac.
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LOL Sorry, don't ask me, I used to stand in church saying
'You will be assimilated, Resistance is futile' ;)
Flipside :D
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From http://www.catholicdoors.com/faq/qu57.htm
As a general rule, the Protestant Holy Bibles contain only 66 Books while the Catholic Holy Bibles contain 73 Books, 46 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. When the Protestant Holy Bibles do list the additional seven Books, they are listed under the title of "Apocrypha" which means "hidden books.
What the "apocrypha" means in Greek is "false teachings". (Gr. "apo-" means "false" and "cryph" means "writing".) They are:
1. I and II Maccabees (Fills the gap between the histories of the Old Testament (Persia) and the New Testament (Rome).)
2. Judith (Depicts a heroine who assasinates an important Assyrian official.)
3. Baruch (Jeremiah's secretary.)
4. Tobit (An epic tragedy involving Tobit and the demon Asmodeus. <- Guess how Volition got the name...)
5. Wisdom (Extention to Psalms?)
6. Sirach (Also called Ecclesiasticus, Extention to Ecclesiastes)
*Some Protestant denominations also exclude the Book of James from the New Testament, for they believe that it constitutes the Anglican, Catholic, and Episcopalian's meritorious (work-based) salvation instead of forensic salvation.
When you say "Protestant", you mean, but not exclusively, the Baptists, Presps., Methodists, and any other Southern fundamentalist Christian group. Usually, the Anglicans and Episcs. are not considered to be "Protestants", for they are spin-offs of the Catholic Tradition. The Mormons are considered cultic Christianity.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
I hope he's not. I really hate stupid people.
Mock me all you want. My opinions stand! :p
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To quote my father:
Opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Just a thought: Could it be that Christian fundamentalism is the reason why half the world hates the US?
In a word, yes.
The particularly American variety of Christianity known as 'born-again' or 'fundamentalist' Christians are very vocal. You don't find anything like them anywhere else in the world. They must absolutely baffle European and Asian Christians, due to their absolute certitude that they know the Truth.
Half of my family is Catholic (natch, I'm puerto rican) and the other half is an even mix of Baptist and Presbyterian. Even they don't understand the Born-agains and Evangelicals and Fundamentalists.
If different sects of Christianity can't figure them out, how are the Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Shinto, etc supposed to? The loud and bile-laden speech spewed forth by people like Falwell ("Mohammed was a terrorist!"*) and the heavy anti-semetic rhetoric ("Jews are responsible for the murder of Jesus!"*), how can the rest of the world do anything but look at the US as a bunch of crazed religious zealots?
* quotes above are statements taken directly from American religious figures or followers. They do not represent Mik's opinion in any way.
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This site is satire, but it basically lumps together all of the born-again babbling into one horrid philosophy:
www.landoverbaptist.org
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Originally posted by Rampage
When you say "Protestant", you mean, but not exclusively, the Baptists, Presps., Methodists, and any other Southern fundamentalist Christian group. Usually, the Anglicans and Episcs. are not considered to be "Protestants", for they are spin-offs of the Catholic Tradition. The Mormons are considered cultic Christianity.
The Anglican church is the protestant church along with the Lutherans.
Forget about the whole bit about King Henry, his wives, and starting a state church? You know the church of England?
Yes, in tradition the Anglican and Episcopal church are very similar to the Catholic church, but they are very much protestant.
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Right, here goes my bit:
Faith is cool. There's nothing wrong with believing in something (whatever the hell it is, one or more gods, getting stoned off your face on a regular basis, the skin on cold soup, anything). Faith can bring people together like nothing else, and it can be a real force for good in the world (e.g. the work that St. Theresa and her nuns did/do). However, it can also bring out the worst in people - nearly every single proper war (i.e. not the stealth-imperialistic raping of the developing/oil-producing world by a certain country in recent years) that has ever occurred has been over differences in belief (among other things, obviously). The Crusades, most of the wars in Medieval Europe, and both World Wars were all at least partially to do with religion.
As for Christian fundies, they scare me even more than the Islamic extremists that we've all been taught to hate recently, if only because they're in even more dangerous positions. I mean, the big W is a born-again Christian, as are a good portion of his cabinet! (read this (http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=15814) and tell me it doesn't scare you). And with the kind of firepower that lot are splashing around the Middle East at the moment, we should all be worried. The 8th Crusade, anyone? :(
Gah, I've banged on about this for long enough. Basically, I think faith is a good thing to have. Religion is fine, as long as people realise that every religion is exactly the f***ing same, and don't use it as an excuse to knock five shades of **** out of each other at the slightest opportunity. I personally am not religious (although faith plays an important part in my life), but as long as people don't try and force it on me or anyone else, I'll respect them for it.
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That article doesn't scare me. It's partisan Chicken Little-ing
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Originally posted by mikhael
The particularly American variety of Christianity known as 'born-again' or 'fundamentalist' Christians are very vocal. You don't find anything like them anywhere else in the world. They must absolutely baffle European and Asian Christians, due to their absolute certitude that they know the Truth.
I don't know where you've been, but you can't prove a negative, and I can prove a positive. Born-again Christians are all over Europe, the Middle-East, Africa, Asia... well, it'd just be simpler to stata that there aren't any on Mars. :p
Originally posted by pyro-manic
Religion is fine, as long as people realise that every religion is exactly the f***ing same...
*disagrees completely, but isn't about to open that can of worms*
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Originally posted by Sandwich
I don't know where you've been, but you can't prove a negative, and I can prove a positive. Born-again Christians are all over Europe, the Middle-East, Africa, Asia... well, it'd just be simpler to stata that there aren't any on Mars. :p
Not in the numbers in which they exist in America.
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ya, were infested
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Originally posted by Sandwich
I don't know where you've been, but you can't prove a negative, and I can prove a positive. Born-again Christians are all over Europe, the Middle-East, Africa, Asia... well, it'd just be simpler to stata that there aren't any on Mars. :p
I dunno, Sandwich. I've lived all over the world, and travelled all over the rest, and seemingly I find these sorts only where there are Americans. Of course I've travelled all over the place and only seen Shintos in Japan. That doesn't mean there aren't any anywhere else, just that they are mostly concentrated in Japan.
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Originally posted by mikhael
I dunno, Sandwich. I've lived all over the world, and travelled all over the rest, and seemingly I find these sorts only where there are Americans. Of course I've travelled all over the place and only seen Shintos in Japan. That doesn't mean there aren't any anywhere else, just that they are mostly concentrated in Japan.
:lol: - No, now I get it... what you're not seeing (oblique Princess Bride reference, anyone?) is called "normality". The big-wig Christian groups in the US are a lot more visible and outspoken, for any number of reasons, one of which is the religious freedom in the US. Of course, this also means that there actually are more per-capita in the US than elsewhere, but that doesn't mean they aren't elsewhere, too. ;)
America may be associated with being the English-speaking country in the world, but there are actually more English speakers in China.
Same with Christians. :p
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Originally posted by Sandwich
:lol: - No, now I get it... what you're not seeing (oblique Princess Bride reference, anyone?) is called "normality". The big-wig Christian groups in the US are a lot more visible and outspoken, for any number of reasons, one of which is the religious freedom in the US. Of course, this also means that there actually are more per-capita in the US than elsewhere, but that doesn't mean they aren't elsewhere, too. ;)
America may be associated with being the English-speaking country in the world, but there are actually more English speakers in China.
Same with Christians. :p
What everyone is talking about aren't necessarily 'Christians' by the literal definition (including all denominations), but more the blade-wielding fanatical zealots in the US ;)
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Don't lump me with Ramage and Hotsnoj, not all christians are fundementalists who make schools take evolution out of the curriculum.
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Originally posted by Zeronet
Don't lump me with Ramage and Hotsnoj, not all christians are fundementalists who make schools take evolution out of the curriculum.
ditto...
I'm Roman Catholic too and I'm not pissing people off by saying that all this **** should be taken out of schools etc. What really pisses me off is when people start thinking that all Catholics are bad because a few priests abused their power. I mean, most of the people in my church are old ladies....:doubt:
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Originally posted by Zeronet
Don't lump me with Ramage and Hotsnoj, not all christians are fundementalists who make schools take evolution out of the curriculum.
Well I'm Episcopalian, and I'm not too fond of people who self-proclaim about how they will be 'taken by the rapture.' It is a very vain statement. Hey, isn't vanity a sin? Ha! Disqualified! :)
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Originally posted by Sandwich
:lol: - No, now I get it... what you're not seeing (oblique Princess Bride reference, anyone?) is called "normality". The big-wig Christian groups in the US are a lot more visible and outspoken, for any number of reasons, one of which is the religious freedom in the US. Of course, this also means that there actually are more per-capita in the US than elsewhere, but that doesn't mean they aren't elsewhere, too. ;)
America may be associated with being the English-speaking country in the world, but there are actually more English speakers in China.
Same with Christians. :p
Um. Dude. That's what I just said. I could swear I made it clear in the very passage you quoted.
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Originally posted by mikhael
Um. Dude. That's what I just said. I could swear I made it clear in the very passage you quoted.
Well, I understood from the Shinto parallel you gave that the Christian fundamentalists are concentrated in the US. While that may be partially true, the primary reason that you only see these annoying outbursts of in-your-face Christianity in the US is that the same kind of people, with the same beliefs and everything, are far less outspoken and (c)rude overseas.
It's one of those things where your actions are dictated in part by your surroundings, I guess.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Well, I understood from the Shinto parallel you gave that the Christian fundamentalists are concentrated in the US. While that may be partially true, the primary reason that you only see these annoying outbursts of in-your-face Christianity in the US is that the same kind of people, with the same beliefs and everything, are far less outspoken and (c)rude overseas.
Now you get my point. There's Shinto here in the US, but you wouldn't know it. They keep their religion to themselves, while in Japan, you'll meet Shinto priests on the street. Same with Buddhist monks. For the most part, your vocal (and therefore very visible) Fundies are here in the US.
I was discussing this with my wife last night. She's Australian, and she's born to first generation Italian immigrants. Before she came to the US she didn't think of us as a particularly religious country. She said that she believe the evangelists that always make it on television, with their over-the-top proselytizing could possibly be taken seriously. The vocal evangelical, born-again, fundamentalist guy on the television was the only image of American faith that made it out to her.
I hope I've made it a bit clearer?
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Next thing you know, they'll be broadcasting back episodes of Jerry Springer in the Arab world.
Why is it, only the ones who make us look bad get shown all over the world?
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Next thing you know, they'll be broadcasting back episodes of Jerry Springer in the Arab world.
Why is it, only the ones who make us look bad get shown all over the world?
So I guess Kirk, Spock, and McCoy make the US look bad :)
Seriously though, you do hear about a lot of the bad aspects of american culture getting out and pissing off a lot of the world, but there are also a few good things that also come out and everyone knows about.
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Originally posted by Ace
So I guess Kirk, Spock, and McCoy make the US look bad :)
Pointy-eared devil...
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So much to comment on...
First, a bit of terminology: evangelical vs. fundamentalist. These should not be considered synonymous. Fundamentalists will often try to assume the name evangelical (because it is a much more respectable term than fundmentalist), but evangelicals will distance themselves from fundmentalists, shake their heads, and wish they would get their heads on straight.
The basic difference is this: fundamentalists have some very extreme views on cultural issues about life in general, will bleat on that the Bible is to be taken as literally true on every point, with the understanding that "true" means exactly the same thing as "fact", and will be inherently hostile to ideas that the Bible might have come into existence by any means other than it virtually falling out of th sky like a rock (i.e. God essentially dictating it to some scribes). Evangelicals are far more moderate in their attitudes about life in general, and as far as the Bible goes consider its truth to be primarily a matter of meaning instead of a matter of factual statement. Evangelicals are likewise quite open to and interested in the story of the development of the Bible through time.
Religions are most certainly not all the same. The core meaning and message of Christianity and Buddhism, for example could hardly be more opposite. Christianity 1) looks forward to the day when the evils of this world will be set right and it will exist in a manner like it does now but incomprehensibly better (being resurrected into it will be a good thing), 2) advocates being willing to suffer for the sake of goodness and looks to one who suffered and died and defeated death as its saviour and model of human goodness in this life, and 3) considers the transformation of the human person from a broken, sin-infested state to a healed, sinless state to be the primary spiritual quest, only to be completed utterly when all the world is made new. Buddhism 1) sees this world as inherently full of suffering and seeks only to escape it (being reincarnated is a bad thing), 2) looks to one who attained perfect peace and tranquility as the model for human life on this earth and believes in no saviour but oneself, and 3) and considers the primary spiritual quest to be attaining nirvana (going where the candle flame goes when you blow it out), which is to be completed in this life so that one can escape its suffering forever. As you can see, the two religions are utterly different and opposed.
Regarding the Apocrypha, the following should be noted: the books now classified as the Apocrypha were always a part of the Septuagint, the Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures, that was in common use in the first century AD. From its inception the Christian Church always used the Septuagint as its Bible, to which they appended the various writings of the New Testament. It was only after Christianity had grown large that Judaism decided to turn away from the Septuagint and go back to the original Hebrew versions exclusively. When the Christians made translations of the Bible into Latin or Persian or what have you, they always included the Septuagint's larger list books. The idea of having only the smaller list of books usually found in Protestant Bibles today did not come about until Luther decided to go make a German translation of the Bible, and used the Hebrew maunscripts available to him to do so. The thing was, after Judaism and Christianity had gone their separate ways, Judaism had dropped those books now called the Apocrypha, and Luther used that as his text instead. There is no better reason for Protestant Bibles dropping the Apocrypa than that.
I could talk about more stuff, but this is way to long as it is.