Hard Light Productions Forums
General FreeSpace => FreeSpace Discussion => Topic started by: Knight Templar on September 21, 2003, 11:51:52 pm
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What would you guys say to us putting Silent Threat tech (Ships and weapons) into the port of Awakenings as options for the pilot to choose from? Note, we wouldn't be making any changes to the story in any way, just adding stuff like the zeus, leech gun, S-Break, etc. to use in missions. All because it fits into the Awakenings era and time.
What're your opinions?
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You forgot about the Loki! Also, you might even be able to add in the Railgun as a bonus weapon... perhaps available to resourceful players. Now, I don't know what the plot is for Awakenings, but here's a possible example. If there happens to be a cargo depot nearby, either controlled previously by the GTI or HoL, have one of the containers have the Railgun prototypes. If the player decides to scan these cargo modules out of curiosity and scans the module with the weapons, the option for the player to call in a freighter is added to the reinforcements list... no messages telling the player to call it in, just slip it in there. The freighter's available commands would include "capture my target" and should the player order the freighter to capture (dock with) the module with the weaponry, then tell the freighter to jump out, the "add-weapon" sexp would make the Railgun available... no changes to the debrief. Maybe this is too much to integrate or too much to change, but it'd be a cool way to hide easter eggs.
Later!
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etc., meaning I didn't feel like listing them all. :p
And I think I'll move this to Gen Freespace for a bigger audiance.
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Much as I like the Zeus, I'd have to say no. Awakenings was produced before Silent Threat, and the tech doesn't fit with the storyline.
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I don't see a problem with putting the Seraphim in there though, maybe even the Nahema. (The Sekhmet is supposed to be based off the Nahema, yet the Nahema isn't seen back then so maybe now's the chance?)
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a bit late, but the seriphem was the only new shivan bomber in ST, and the nahema is quoted as probably being of new design...
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I know the Seriphim is the only new bomber in Silent Threat, but here's the description of the Sekhmet in FS2:
"The GVB Sekhmet is a Shivan design that was initially adapted to Vasudan needs by Hammer of Light engineers. The version currently in use was further modified by technicians at Mekhu Enterprises. Sporting four primary weapon banks and three missile/bomb bays, the Sekhmet packs a massive punch. Add in a top speed that surpasses that of some fighters and an ultra-dense molybdenum armor plating, and it's easy to see why the Sekhmet is the favorite bomber among Vasudan pilots."
Now if the Sekhmet is availible to Vasudans from the first mission in FS2, and it's been around long enough to gain a reputation among Vasudans as a good bomber, then when did the Hammer of Light originally create the bomber off of the Nahema? You can't have the Sekhmet based off the Nahema if the Nahema is first seen in Gamma Draconis, or wherever. It must have been seen earlier, and therefore I don't think it would be greatly frowned upon to include the Nahema in a FS1-era campaign. Because the Sekhmet sure as hell isn't based upon the Seriphim, Nephilim or the Shaitan. And to my knowledge the Sekhmet could only have been designed in the FS1 era as the HoL doesn't really exist in the FS2-era in any credible force.
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Who said it was off the Nahema? It was Shivan, yes, but the Shivans had more than just the Nahema bomber...
Like I said somewhere else, who's to say that the HoL didn't encounter varieties of Shivan vessels that the rest of the GTA/PVN hadn't?
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one of GE's threads this month brings this up IIRC...
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Well I thought it was pretty much agreed upon that it was based on the Nahema because the two are very similar in design. The HoL could have encountered other designs, but I'm not sure I see the purpose of giving the Shivans another bomber which looks more like the Sekhmet just so that the Nahema wouldn't appear in FS1.
Remember the Shivans have been around for thousands of years. The Sathanas, Maras, Nahemas, Rakshasas, likely all existed at the time of FS1, they just weren't in the scouting party. But they were still around, some place.
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but why wouldn't cains and liliths have beam cannons in FS1 if they do in FS2? They only conclusion is that since the vasudans discovered beams during a time where there were no shivans, that the shivans too have advanced and refined their technology, and did not already have all their fs2 tech in the fs1 era...
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err.. no. The Lucy's guns were meant to be beams. And the Vasudans go to know the Lucy's beams well. V just never thought of beams or couldn't do them with FS1.
It's already bad enough that V gave each race the same weapons in both games... this is older than dirt.
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
Who said it was off the Nahema? It was Shivan, yes, but the Shivans had more than just the Nahema bomber...
Like I said somewhere else, who's to say that the HoL didn't encounter varieties of Shivan vessels that the rest of the GTA/PVN hadn't?
Line the two up side by side and ontop of each other and the similarities in design are undeniable.
Another point to make is that the Shivans did not just disppear after FS1. The tech room states that once the Lucifer was destroyed the Shivan fleet became disorganized and was hunted down and systematically destroyed. Nonetheless, I get the impression that they caused problems for many years...as we saw in ST - several engagements with the Shivans during that time.
So during that time, the Nahema probably was seen in limited numbers, perhaps captured, and then reverse engineered. Several years later, Operation Templar destroys the HoL, recaptures the shipyards in Altair, and the plans become part of Mehku and eventually becomes part of the Alliance naval force.
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but why wouldn't cains and liliths have beam cannons in FS1 if they do in FS2? They only conclusion is that since the vasudans discovered beams during a time where there were no shivans, that the shivans too have advanced and refined their technology, and did not already have all their fs2 tech in the fs1 era...
I don't know. Why didn't the Shivans continuing attacking after the Lucifer had been destroyed? Was the GTVA not adjacent to Shivan systems?? Why was there only one super-ship in FS1 but the Shivans have a hundred of them in FS2?
One possible explanation, when the Ancients were destroyed a small group of them shutdown the Knossos portal and severed themselves from the Shivan forces. They then stored the race records in Vega or wherever, and then moved away or died off. In the meantime, the Shivans want to completely eliminate the ancients and so dispatch the Lucifer fleet in an attempt to find the areas beyond the Knossos and destroy whatever remains of the Ancient fleet. At the time of the Lucifer's launch, she's the only Shivan ship to mount beam weapons. The Lucifer fleet travels for centuries, if not millenia and eventually through a long search arrives at where it thinks the ancients should be, around Ross 128. Instead it finds the Vasudans and Terrans battling it out, and takes it upon itself to destroy them as well.
In the meantime, over those hundreds of years Shivan beam technology has advanced such that all Shivan vessels now carry the armament. Thirty years after the Lucifer is destroyed, Bosch activates the Knossos opening a portal to some far off system of the galaxy, closer to the heart of the Shivan worlds. The Shivan ships, hundreds of years more advanced than the Lucifer fleet pour through the portal and aim to eliminate this previously unknown threat.
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Akalabeth, you've got a really interesting theory there. I like it and I think it makes a lot of sence.
Now, back to the topic at hand, I don't think those weapons or ships would fit in Awakenings. The Seraphim MAYBE, but you don't want to go tweaking around with the campaign that much. This was probably the best FS1 or even just plain Freespace campaign ever. Don't change it around by changing already existing ships. Back to the weapons and ships.
Loki? No, this was used by GTI only.
Zeus? Only really seen in the GTA after the Hades rebellion. Wouldn't fit right.
Weapons? Mostly GTI exclusive weapons, even in Awakenings, would only be seen in the most elite wings. So I don't think they'd go well either.
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If you want to go on about shivan superiority over the years, then you'd surely think that over the eons, the Shivans would have ships that are as fast, small, and maneuverable as the Dragon, and can carry weapons 3000x stronger than Helioses...
Stupid evolution...
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Another possibility is that the Lucifer was the only ship capable of opening the unstable jump nodes needed to get in from Shivan space.
Once it was gone the shivans had no way back. It also explains why the shivans went to all the trouble of giving it shields.
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Originally posted by karajorma
Another possibility is that the Lucifer was the only ship capable of opening the unstable jump nodes needed to get in from Shivan space.
Now that's an interesting idea. The Lucifer could open unstable jump nodes. 'Twould explain why the Shivans didn't pop up all over the place in FS2 like they did in FS1.
Very interesting... :drevil:
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
If you want to go on about shivan superiority over the years, then you'd surely think that over the eons, the Shivans would have ships that are as fast, small, and maneuverable as the Dragon, and can carry weapons 3000x stronger than Helioses...
My personal belief as to why the Shivans had beams in FS2, and not FS1, is because the Shivans (according to Setekh's musings) choose their designs based on what will inspire the most dread and hopelessness in their victims. In FS1, the largest ships were destroyers; a shielded superdestroyer with massive beam weaponry was enough to cause panic and fear while making the Terrans and Vasudan try different tactics, all of which failed. The Lucifer was incredibly menacing back then.
Now that the GTVA has beam weaponry and a juggernaut, the Shivans need enough to get a technological edge on their enemies. Not so much that they can obliterate everything in their path, but enough to give the GTVA just enough hope so they can crush them once again. The Colossus destroys the Sathanas, everyone rejoices, then come more... again, the cycle of hope and despair. It's quite effective in wearing down your opponent's morale.
Which is what the Shivans do. They are not merely destroyers, they are punishers. See the Ancients monologues. The Shivans do not simply lay waste to everything they see (though it might seem that way.) They simply seek to preserve the cosmic order and give life everywhere a chance. Nuking stars willy-nilly won't help that.
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Now that the GTVA has beam weaponry and a juggernaut, the Shivans need enough to get a technological edge on their enemies. Not so much that they can obliterate everything in their path, but enough to give the GTVA just enough hope so they can crush them once again. The Colossus destroys the Sathanas, everyone rejoices,
then come more... again, the cycle of hope and despair. It's quite effective in wearing down your opponent's morale.
The problem with this idea is that it assumes that:
A - the Shivans have not destroyed non-advanced life
B - the Shivans have a wide technological variety of ships at their disposal, each of which would be effectively menacing against any advanced species. So in other words they have a bunch of ships which would scare FS1 tech, and a bunch which would scare FS2 tech, and so forth.
A is unsubstantiated. Despite the fact that both the Vasudans and Terrans were allowed to reach the advanced stage there is no evidence of other intelligent life behind Shivan front lines. It also begs the question of why the Vasudans and Terrans were attacked in the first place. Niether of them had conquered/subdued less advanced species as the Ancients did. The first species they encountered were eachother, and for eachother they were an equal match. The attacks in both FS1 and 2 would therefore be based on huge assumptions that both Terrans and Vasudans would seek to subdue other races ; similar to, "he has a handgun, so certainly he will kill someone with it". Essentially it assumes Terrans and Vasudans will be malevolent to other advanced races.
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GE: That would all imply that the Shivans had prior knowledge of GTVA affairs...
It would make more sense if the first few vessels that enterred were shielded, and we punched trhough them. Or the Ravana. But it didn't seem to work out that way...
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Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
The problem with this idea is that it assumes that:
A - the Shivans have not destroyed non-advanced life
B - the Shivans have a wide technological variety of ships at their disposal, each of which would be effectively menacing against any advanced species. So in other words they have a bunch of ships which would scare FS1 tech, and a bunch which would scare FS2 tech, and so forth.
A. Exactly. The Shivans are the Great Preservers, giving all life forms a chance to live long and prosper in their own systems. When one species discovers subspace, journeys out into the stars, discovers and tramples other primitive life, then the Shivans come and exterminate them, so as to allow other life to flourish. That is the underlying message of FS1 and the Ancients monologues.
"The Shivans are the great destroyers, but they are also the great preservers. That is why there was no one to destroy us.
Long had we been the destroyer. Our turn had nearly come."
Given humanity's treatment of life in the past (Remember Columbus?) it makes sense that when mankind ventured into other star systems they, like the Ancients, "saw other advanced life. And we subdued it or we crushed it." Nowhere does it say that Vasudans were the first alien lifeform discovered by the Terrans.
And B.) That's what they've demonstrated so far. How else would you explain the two fleets?
Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
GE: That would all imply that the Shivans had prior knowledge of GTVA affairs...
I think they do. :ha: Remember that the Shivans are not just another alien race; they are not of this universe. They are an immense cosmic force the likes of which we can barely comprehend. They are the great destroyers, the great preservers, the force which keeps the universe in balance and ensures all life is free from tyrrany. They are Shivans.
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I think they do. Remember that the Shivans are not just another alien race; they are not of this universe. They are an immense cosmic force the likes of which we can barely comprehend. They are the great destroyers, the great preservers, the force which keeps the universe in balance and ensures all life is free from tyrrany. They
are Shivans.
If that's the case, why did they destroy Capella instead of continuing on into GTVA systems and wiping them out? Why allow civilians to escape, and to allow their prey to cut themselves off from the Shivans?
Furthermore, why then did the Shivans take Bosch and his leutenants alive instead of simply killing them in the Nebula?
I think the answer to why the Shivans have beams in FS2 but not in FS1 across their fleet is simple. FS2 has anti-ship and anti-fighter beams, therefore all warships get them. It wouldn't be very fun to have the Fenris firing beams while a Cain sits there and takes it. It also helps to epitomize the technological advantage the Shivans have as a tiny ship like the Lilith can destroy GTVA Destroyers single-handidly (if it gets the best angle).
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Originally posted by Akalabeth Angel
If that's the case, why did they destroy Capella instead of continuing on into GTVA systems and wiping them out? Why allow civilians to escape, and to allow their prey to cut themselves off from the Shivans?
Furthermore, why then did the Shivans take Bosch and his lieutenants alive instead of simply killing them in the Nebula?
Those are the two great unanswered questions of Freespace 2. I challenge you to find any campaign that answers those convincingly.
The truth is, we really have no idea. It's up to [V]'s writers to tell us because presumably they already know, and were planning to use it in a sequel.
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Those are the two great unanswered questions of Freespace 2.
And fun campaigns are the ones that leave them that way. Answer the question, lose the magic. Raise more questions, and the spell is woven tighter.
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Originally posted by IceFire
Another point to make is that the Shivans did not just disppear after FS1. The tech room states that once the Lucifer was destroyed the Shivan fleet became disorganized and was hunted down and systematically destroyed. Nonetheless, I get the impression that they caused problems for many years...as we saw in ST - several engagements with the Shivans during that time.
Hence the plot of AHTW...
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Originally posted by GalacticEmperor
Those are the two great unanswered questions of Freespace 2. I challenge you to find any campaign that answers those convincingly.
Check the background for MindGames. Geezer answered both questions quite nicely there. Of course it only works for MG because of the existance of the Starborn.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
Now that's an interesting idea. The Lucifer could open unstable jump nodes. 'Twould explain why the Shivans didn't pop up all over the place in FS2 like they did in FS1.
Very interesting... :drevil:
That would fit I think, heres what I think:
The Lucifer fleet might have been cut off from it's main fleet, and they developed the Sheilds as a means to protect it, and the Lucifer Fleet in anger attacked the ancients for their loss of their link to home. It would also explain why the Shivans attack everything on sight, mabe they are stuck or should I say locked in a state of mind where they think everything is after them.
The Lucifer Fleet loss would of been a magor blow to their powerfull force, so when they came back in FS2 they were maddened with frear so they assulted the Tarren-Vasudan ships at the portal, and started a war of death, that only they were truly kind, when they have realy gone mad.
Just my thoughts.