Hard Light Productions Forums
Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Setekh on October 03, 2003, 03:22:57 am
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G'day everyone. Well, we the staff of HLP have decided on a new initiative regarding all the hosted projects that exist here at Hard Light. In light of HLP 2.0 going online and its huge emphasis on community activity and hosted content, as well as the recent rise of several new campaigns and projects, we have decided to refuse all future campaign hosting requests, until further notice.
The reason for this is two-fold. Firstly, as highlighted by Woolie Wool's article on the failure of many campaigns to reach fruition, a number of campaigns have been authorised for hosting and they have fallen down before even publishing a demo, let alone completion. Our relationship with GameSpy is also strained by our taking up huge amounts of server space - which alone would be fine, but as it stands, much of it is dead weight. GS gives us unlimited space in order to be productive, not to be lazy. We cannot allow this dead weight to continue amassing. Now, while we know that those of you starting up new campaigns have the best of intentions, consider the fact that many of you will have trouble getting of the ground because the great majority of the community's talent is already tied up with other projects.
This brings us to the second reason. If people already on other campaigns offer generously help to you, that is wonderful news for your campaign, but conversely grim for the campaigns they are already committed to. We do not mean to be selfish but we are not in a position to commit GameSpy's space to a hundred projects that are all under-staffed. Consider what would happen if each person had half as many commitments to attend to: the projects they remain upon would, theoretically, be completed twice as quickly. This is a pressing issue when you look at the number of unfinished campaigns we currently host. It is nearly all of them.
What we propose, then, is this. In combination with our present withdrawal of hosting new campaigns, we insist that any community member considering beginning a new campaign should first offer up their skills to the wider community, in order to speed the completion of the campaigns already hosted. Once campaigns begin to be actually completed, then the tide will turn and we will once again consider new hosting offers. But that is for the future. Right now we are not eager to create more labour when what we need is more labourers.
We do not plan to leave anyone with new aspirations high and dry, of course. Campaigns clearly do not need to be hosted by us to commence and make progress. If you insist that you must start your new campaign now, we will not stop you - and we will gladly point you to free webspace (like Swooh or Tripod) if you require webspace, as well as link to you through the main HLP site. But please be aware of our preference, and also the great service you will do yourself and others if you join an established campaign.
Thanks for your time. :)
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One small suggestion. Can you host completed campaigns? They wouldn't take much work to put up. Wouldn't need a forum and would only need a small amount of space for the website and whatever was needed for the gamespy download.
In that way the only way to get an avatar now would be to join a project already hosted or actually get something finished.
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Why don't you make it so that a campaign can only be hosted if it has released a demo? That way you know it has promise and is an active campaign.
This at least gives an oppertunity for hosting but requires actual work.
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That's not real proof, a demo: I was about to release mine when I cancelled OTT.
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It's pretty easy to release a demo. I could release one for TMA tomorrow. Doesn't mean I'm anywhere close to finishing the campaign (or even starting work on it again).
Even worse is that many campaigns get as far as releasing a demo before they fade into obscurity. At the start when people are fired up and happy to spend all their time on the campaign people can get a couple of mods finished and a few missions too. Once the reality sets in and people get a bit more bored they tend to scale back.
I've been saying for a while that newbie FREDders and modders would be better off joining an existing campaign and getting some experience that way rather than plunging off into their own campaigns that will most likely never get very far.
EDIT : TCO posts before I finished editing this but I don't put much faith in demos for the reason I stated above.
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Yeah, but it at least gives people a chance. I mean if people get out a good demo they are less likely they give up.
*note: LESS likely.
Also, you could just play the demo and check if its not a simple 2 mission demo and then approve it... :p
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Originally posted by TheCelestialOne
Why don't you make it so that a campaign can only be hosted if it has released a demo? That way you know it has promise and is an active campaign.
This at least gives an oppertunity for hosting but requires actual work.
Unfortunately, that doesn't deal with the problem of the dilution of the community's workers. The person who originates this campaign will not be able to help any other campaigns needing assistance, and other campaigns whose staffers assist the new project will be slowed in progress. :)
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Well, I'm pleased to see that there's (so far) not nearly as much negative feedback as I feared there would be. :)
We didn't come by this decision lightly. The main reason - and possibly the only reason - for HLP's growth has been our acceptance of more - more campaigns, more mods, more people... So we realize that this is a risky step we're taking - essentially discouraging new campaigns.
But personally - although I probably speak for pretty much everyone here - I'm sick of seeing hosted projects wither away and die, or get canceled outright. The Battlezone 2 Community Project, for example, was an incredible work of art that was completed because virtually the whole BZ community was behind it, helping out.
So I hope that this is a step in that direction - we have a wide foundation established, now let's start building for height. :)
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Originally posted by Sandwich
we have a wide foundation established, now let's start building for height. :)
Well said. ;)
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I find it odd that you're casting fledgling campaigns out into the cold, harsh wilderness and basically dooming them before they get off the ground purely under the misguided assumption that people from the condemned campaigns will flock towards the ruins of those already hosted by HLP.
Kinda like shooting down a dove so you can use its carcass to cover a dying crow.
Man, I waaaay over-did the bird metaphors.
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an0n says: NW will host anyone with a good idea. You get FTP, MySQL databases, PHP functionality, me smiting you for no reason, a forum and probably e-mail addresses and other junk. CLICK HERE (http://nodewar.penguinbomb.com/forum)
i am just relaying the message, i make no promises.
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Originally posted by Tian Guan
I find it odd that you're casting fledgling campaigns out into the cold, harsh wilderness and basically dooming them before they get off the ground purely under the misguided assumption that people from the condemned campaigns will flock towards the ruins of those already hosted by HLP.
Kinda like shooting down a dove so you can use its carcass to cover a dying crow.
Originally posted by Setekh
We do not plan to leave anyone with new aspirations high and dry, of course. Campaigns clearly do not need to be hosted by us to commence and make progress. If you insist that you must start your new campaign now, we will not stop you - and we will gladly point you to free webspace (like Swooh or Tripod) if you require webspace, as well as link to you through the main HLP site. But please be aware of our preference, and also the great service you will do yourself and others if you join an established campaign.
We've addressed this. Not providing webspace is not even close to dooming them before they get off the ground. You ought to realise that is only a fairly recent development (last couple of years) that incomplete campaigns received hosting. The way it used to be was that if you had a completed campaign, that was given 'hosting' - a location to be downloaded by the community, as karajorma mentioned. If you think a campaign cannot begin without web hosting from a place like HLP, you are sorely mistaken.
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Originally posted by Tian Guan
I find it odd that you're casting fledgling campaigns out into the cold, harsh wilderness and basically dooming them before they get off the ground purely under the misguided assumption that people from the condemned campaigns will flock towards the ruins of those already hosted by HLP.
Kinda like shooting down a dove so you can use its carcass to cover a dying crow.
Man, I waaaay over-did the bird metaphors.
[color=66ff00]Ruins of campaigns? That's pretty innaccurate, some are stalled due to lack of RL™ time, some are stalled due to lack of available skills, the new initiative is not only a good way to get these campaigns back into the swing of things, it's proven to work provided the community holds to it.
Also what would you prefer; 50 non finished campaigns or 5 full releases with quality content?
[/color]
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Yes, because all the campaigns not hosted by HLP and VWBB are doing so great.
And it's not so much the space anyway. It's the forums and the exposure that they bring.
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[color=66ff00]We have the campaign forum here at HLP for that very reason and we're looking at linking to external projects at the moment too. :)
I think you've got the idea that we're abandoning the new campaign ideas, this simply isn't true.
[/color]
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You're telling them to find space, forums and staff from elsewhere and you don't think that's abandoning them?
And as for the 'link on the main page' thing, who actually reads it anyway? Sure it's a novelty to read it now, but in a week or so it'll be little more than a place-holder, linking the 3dap address to the forums.
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Originally posted by Tian Guan
You're telling them to find space, forums and staff from elsewhere and you don't think that's abandoning them?
And as for the 'link on the main page' thing, who actually reads it anyway? Sure it's a novelty to read it now, but in a week or so it'll be little more than a place-holder, linking the 3dap address to the forums.
Who said anyone needed space or forums to begin and make progress on a campaign? The major campaigns of the past had websites because their campaigns reached completion - not vice versa. And another fact is that there are hardly any staff in existence that are not already committed to other projects. Adding further projects just makes everything progress slower.
You know, I often thought that exactly what you mention would have happened; it's so blatantly clear that the Forums are the 'centre of the community'. Heck, they are the community. So why wouldn't people just bookmark the Forums and bypass the main site? The main site would be useless, then. But guess what? People don't just bookmark the Forums. People have been visiting the main page consistently for 3 years. And how do you suppose a new community member would be able to figure out whatt his 'HLP' place is? By looking at the Forums? I don't think so. Even if you are right, and the main site becomes a mere place-holder, then we merely extend the offer to including links on the forum index.
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On a related note, during the big 2.0 fuss, why not just do a Gaters.net and integrate the site with the forum?
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good work guys (HLP staff):) :yes:
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Originally posted by Tian Guan
I find it odd that you're casting fledgling campaigns out into the cold, harsh wilderness and basically dooming them before they get off the ground purely under the misguided assumption that people from the condemned campaigns will flock towards the ruins of those already hosted by HLP.
We are not casting fledgling campaigns out into the cold. What we are doing - and I know it sounds harsh - it discouraging people from starting new campaigns to begin with. There, I said it.
We could have left our hosting terms the same and just said "we discourage you from starting a new campaign, but encourage you to join existing campaigns to help them complete their projects." But we didn't - we decided to take action as well. Perhaps simply stating our position on the issue would have been enough.
But there is also the issue of HLP's size on the GS network - something that we have not really made public. A number of months ago, perhaps as much as a year, we got an email from GS saying that they the HLP folder on the 3dap server was the largest, period. Larger than any other hosted site (which is what HLP is), and even larger than any of the Planet-X mega sites (PlanetQuake, PlanetHomeworld, etc).
We've tried to get hosted projects to go through their directories and purge the large stuff that should be on the fileplanet servers, but it hasn't worked very well.
So... that's where things stand. Any more questions? :)
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Yes. Do you really expect people to use fileplanet? It has to be the single worst download mechanism ever devised.
Personally, I'd rather have the binary code mailed to me on tiny pieces of paper in 10-digit chunks over the course of several weeks than use fileplanet.
And, while I'm picking fault with everything else: You don't allow Hotmail e-mail addresses and you moderate new users? How do you expect to build up a base of new campaign-people if you're turning new members away arbitrarily?
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AFAIK, the moderating stuff only began after an0n got banned and didn't want to stay out.
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So IP ban him/her/it/them.
User-Moderation is like people-repellant.
But what's the point in letting people sign up with hotmail accounts if they're not allowed them? I'm like 90% certain that vBulletin can force you to choose a different address if the admins set it to reject Hotmail ones.
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We're no longer moderating new registrations. And you really could have done a better job with your hotmail account.
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Originally posted by kasperl
AFAIK, the moderating stuff only began after an0n got banned and didn't want to stay out.
Yep.
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I absolutely disagree.If a campaign dies, you can erase it. Same as in the case of OVER THE TOP. It is only up to the project leaders to report: 'This project is dead'. Or you can erase forums by the method and reason you close a thread. If you see no progress at the forums(both at the internal and the public), you can erase it. The porject leader would onlysay: 'One less thing to suffer with, we really didn't show much progress'.
I just sent my request to the request thread about hosting for RR. But I can guarantee you that this project WON'T DIE! It is only unvoice acted, and two missions left to FRED(I can make them easily). If I see that voice actors are not working, I release the unvoice acted version. This is the Status of Renegade Ressurgence. I know that this is not a reason why to make exception with RR, I only enlightened you.
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I'm going to jump in with some support for this. There are plenty of camps out there now that don't have the manpower they need, and starting more spreads people out too much. In some situations, that can be good - It can force people to learn new skills in certain situations. Buut this will only happen if that person has enough conviction and determination to see his (or her) campaign finished that they are willing to put in the time to learn these skills and make the overall package better, and these campaigns are the ones that are going to succeed, HLP hosting notwithstanding. Many others, by contrast, have a very good chance of not being finished, again, HLP hosting notwithstanding. Circumstances change, and the very best intentions can end up becoming the very deadest campaigns. Case in point - I'm very stronly considering cancelling NTV - with Alikchi gone, Nobody seem s to have the motivation to work on it (and yes, this is despite the fact that we have a demo out, sadly).
To the naysayers, I've also got a few things to say. First off, chances are many of you are, or are going to be, pissed off about this because you have hosting applications pending approval. As has been said, There are alternatives to HLP hosting available. More to my point however, are Setekhs comments about how in the days of yore, campaigns were hosted when they were completed, as a download location. Its my personal belief that we, as a community, seem to be attatching far more importance to hosting than to whichever campiagn we may be working on or want to work on. Major projects need discussion boards, for the staff to talk and hammer things out, especially if that staff is composed of people form all over the world in different timezones. But that doesn't neccesarily mean your campaign needs HLP hosting, or any hosting for that matter. EZboard can provide free, private forums within minutes for staff to discuss, Geocities, and more recently Swooh can provide neccesary webspace for file transfersetc. etc. However, even that may be overkill. What you really need to consider is whether your campaign even needs to be a major project.
Most campaigns begin with an idea or concept, many of which are probably excellent. Its the leap from idea to campaign plan that, I think, destroys many great campaign ideas. People try to do too much before they have the skills or experience to accomplish it. Do you really need to set your campaign fifty years after Capella and require an entirely new fleet, or would it work as well five years later? Do you really need 20 or 30 missions to express your idea, or will many of these be placeholders between important events? Do you need a brand new fighter, or could you download one from somewhere to fill the nieche? Before you complain about the need for hosting, boil your idea down to the bones and really look to see if you need what you think you do. A five mission campaign is far easier to complete than a thirty and I know I'd prefer a complete five misison minicampaign than a tirty mission pipedream.
Hmm. Maybe I should write an article or something. Then I wouldn;t have suchg long posts :)
[/$0.02]
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Okay, just out of curiousity, if a campaign has it's own site/webspace/forum, Etc.. would HLP support that on it's front page?.. (as in a link/Forum avatar)?
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Originally posted by kasperl
an0n says: NW will host anyone with a good idea. You get FTP, MySQL databases, PHP functionality, me smiting you for no reason, a forum and probably e-mail addresses and other junk. CLICK HERE (http://nodewar.penguinbomb.com/forum)
i am just relaying the message, i make no promises.
it seems that this was missed completely. this option is open for anyone who thinks his campaign has to have hosting, but can't get a forum and stuff going somewhere else.
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Originally posted by TopAce
I absolutely disagree.If a campaign dies, you can erase it. Same as in the case of OVER THE TOP. It is only up to the project leaders to report: 'This project is dead'. Or you can erase forums by the method and reason you close a thread. If you see no progress at the forums(both at the internal and the public), you can erase it. The porject leader would onlysay: 'One less thing to suffer with, we really didn't show much progress'.
But the main point is to prevent campaigns from dying, not just clean up after them when they die. You have no idea (or maybe you do, I don't know - whatever) how hard and long people, including me, tried to convince Venom not to cancel OTT. When the final descision came through to cancel, it was a very big blow to the community... O.T.T.... canceled. Wow. Now thankfully Venom has donated his models to the FSUP (or whatever those initials are), but still.
Originally posted by TopAce
I just sent my request to the request thread about hosting for RR. But I can guarantee you that this project WON'T DIE! It is only unvoice acted, and two missions left to FRED(I can make them easily). If I see that voice actors are not working, I release the unvoice acted version. This is the Status of Renegade Ressurgence. I know that this is not a reason why to make exception with RR, I only enlightened you.
You what??!? You have a nearly completed campaign, and you did it all without HLP hosting?!?! How'd you do that???
;)
See my point? Lack of HLP hosting didn't stop you at all. :) Great job! :yes:
Originally posted by Turnsky
Okay, just out of curiousity, if a campaign has it's own site/webspace/forum, Etc.. would HLP support that on it's front page?.. (as in a link/Forum avatar)?
We haven't quite decided how that support will be shown, but yes, we will do something to let people know of said project. Avatars, on the other hand... I don't know. Doubtful.
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edited. I have said nothing :)
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Originally posted by Sandwich
You what??!? You have a nearly completed campaign, and you did it all without HLP hosting?!?! How'd you do that???
;)
See my point? Lack of HLP hosting didn't stop you at all. :) Great job! :yes:
I spent my summer FREDing the missions, used Yahoo! to ask some art stuff from FreeTerran, and communication with our (very few) voice actors. This is all what were required. :). The files are at my hungarian server of www.nexus.hu or SWOOH. And of course on my Winchester :).
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Originally posted by Tian Guan
I find it odd that you're casting fledgling campaigns out into the cold, harsh wilderness and basically dooming them before they get off the ground purely under the misguided assumption that people from the condemned campaigns will flock towards the ruins of those already hosted by HLP.
What nonsense. Speaking as someone who runs both hosted and non-hosted projects I know that HLP hosting isn't something you need.
It's nice to have have it sure but MG lasted for 6 months before we got hosted. We didn't get anything from hosting except publicity. That's nice to have sure but it isn't vital to the progress of a new campaign. The only way it will help you is by attracting people away from campaigns they are already working on, which is exactly what HLP don't want people doing.
Originally posted by TopAce
I spent my summer FREDing the missions, used Yahoo! to ask some art stuff from FreeTerran, and communication with our (very few) voice actors. This is all what were required. :). The files are at my hungarian server of www.nexus.hu or SWOOH. And of course on my Winchester :).
Sort of disproved your own point that you need hosting to get a campaign up and working haven't you? :) If you're saying you want HLP hosting for when your campaign is finished well that's another matter. I agree fully that HLP should host finished campaigns.
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If you have a finished campaign, by all means, contact us for hosting. We can even work something out if you want to release it for the first time on HLP - make it an event, through the new website and forum features. We just can't afford to host more practically idle projects - both due to community strain and due to our space issues with Gamespy.
:)
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Damn straight. ;) I long for the days back when someone might make a single announcement, then six months later turn up with a finished campaign. Now that was something that really bound the community together. Anyway, now that we seem to have gotten past this point, I'll address another...
Originally posted by Tian Guan
Yes. Do you really expect people to use fileplanet? It has to be the single worst download mechanism ever devised.
FilePlanet offers free, unlimited space. Beggars can't be choosers - and if you're not willing to pay for a new server and a buttload of bandwidth, you fall into the former category. Learn some patience and FilePlanet will serve you well.
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RR is still not ready. But I can make it that over a weekend or two(If I have mood to open FRED).
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Cool, so when it's done, if you want to launch it through HLP, contact us. And about Fileplanet, I never had any problem with it - much to the contrary, it worked very well every time I used it.
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I don't want voice actors to offend at me for launching RR unvoice acted. I only need ICQ to communicate with them. Once done(With this speed, expect it to be ready around 2042 :)), I may want to launch it from HLP.
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Originally posted by TopAce
I spent my summer FREDing the missions, used Yahoo! to ask some art stuff from FreeTerran, and communication with our (very few) voice actors. This is all what were required. :). The files are at my hungarian server of www.nexus.hu or SWOOH. And of course on my Winchester :).
that's exactly Sandwich's point :) you don't NEED to be hosted at HLP to do a campaign.
The decision there is to get more people to help already complete existing campaigns so they are finished faster. If the current projects are completed thanks to more modders who have free time, well, you'll get "free slots" for a new campaign, and will then be able to apply for your own. You might not like that "first come, first served" thing, but it makes things more manageable. Well that's how I see it.
I completly support that idea, personally.
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According to my experience, free time is a thing modders don't have. :(
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Originally posted by Sandwich
We haven't quite decided how that support will be shown, but yes, we will do something to let people know of said project. Avatars, on the other hand... I don't know. Doubtful.
Fair enough... mind you, what about those with major projects,etc that are of some importance to Hard-light itself..
note:Rictor, put a HLP link thingy in the foxfire website, this is where Foxfire was Born after all, and will have it's roots here thusly;)
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Originally posted by Turnsky
Fair enough... mind you, what about those with major projects,etc that are of some importance to Hard-light itself..
Example? :) Essentially, though, we'll consider them on a case-by-case basis. Those where we decide to add avatars will tend to be the exception.
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lessee.. how's about the "babylon Project"? and Blackwater ops?...
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I fully agree with HLPs desicion even thought I would love hosting at HLP but in my opinion if you don't have the motivation to maybe pay a small amount for good hosting then you probly don't have the motivation to build your campaign. Heck go to freewebs and get FULL premium access for $42 per YEAR.
On the other hand forums and those IMO overprotected avatars get the campaigns some publicity and maybe some help. I have been asking for help, mainly texture help, for months but I am ignored. Now I know avatars are pushing it for new campaigns like mine but maybe a forum? The link is nice though.
Now that I have read this I am going to submit my link to my site and I am going to offer my growing MOD skills and maybe texture skills (I am slowly getting it). I believe this is a good choice on HLPs side.
By the way, what is this "no hotmail" stuff?
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I have a small suggestion, may not be the best, but it's an idea.
Maybe we could have a system similar to Campaign Watch back on VW. Even though that kinda failed, the premise was still good. You could have a page set up with just completed demos to campaigns in the works. Give some details about the demo and if one exists, a link to it's homepage.
It might give a bit of support and encouragement to campaigns in the works from the community. Also it might give us an influx of new missions to play and that's never a bad thing is it? ^^
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Originally posted by Setekh
Damn straight. ;) I long for the days back when someone might make a single announcement, then six months later turn up with a finished campaign. Now that was something that really bound the community together.
*smilies to himself quietly* :)
I wholeheartedly agree with this decision. We have lots of quality projects here that are stumbling because of lack of dedicated staff, and yet more keep appearing siphoning off more staff members. So you end up with maybe 100 good modders in the community each doing 5 projects, with more on the way. Let's get some of these done, so we have some completed campaigns instead of just hosted projects.
And HLP, while it may be the hub of community activity, certainly isn't the only option. The Port started off on Angelfire and I got it 90% completed before applying for hosting. The SWTC was run on Karma's personal webspace before moving here for a forum. I can point out Twisted Infinities on SectorGame or BWO on VolitionWatch, or dozens of others that need nothing more than a Tripod and an EZBoard account to get going.
If you have skills, applying them to something in-progress is much more likely to gain results than starting afresh. (Even Volition's FRED manual says so, and that was before even table mods.) Now that even smaller campaigns with completed mods are taking close to a year to complete due to staff with multiple commitments (I conceived of ST:R in November of 2002) it's even more important that our community works together on existing projects.
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Good decision, I think. :yes:
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Originally posted by Sandwich
You what??!? You have a nearly completed campaign, and you did it all without HLP hosting?!?! How'd you do that???
;)
See my point? Lack of HLP hosting didn't stop you at all. :) Great job! :yes:
Don't get too smug until you've played it.
For all you know it might just be 40 different kinds of boxes all firing variations of the Rockeye across a branching, exciting, enthrawling plot with a captivating, 3-mission story-arc, pitting you against the Intersectons. A new race of aliens who's model geometry is so appauling they're completely invisible and invunerable to attack.
And if it is, I intend to never let you forget this.
*grabs a staple-gun, some post-its and a copy of Grays' Anatomy*
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Once I do the first release of my Starforce mod, I'll probably apply for hosting (unlike T&T, which will have to be well and truly done before being hosted). Starforce is not a campaign, it is a total conversion complete with a minicampaign (~10 missions). Additions made by me or others will be also put up on the site, and occasionally the best will be lumped with the original for new releases. It will never be truly "finished" in the normal sense, because there's always room for it to grow. Add-ons will be checked for consistency with the storyline (a reference bible will be included with release 1) and those that are consistent and are under 10MB get uploaded to the archives. New ships, weapons, etc. will be welcome too.
I mostly agree with the admins' decision. It must not have been easy to make the decision, but they were right--campaigns that are doomed are dead weight.
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Originally posted by Culando
Maybe we could have a system similar to Campaign Watch back on VW. Even though that kinda failed, the premise was still good. You could have a page set up with just completed demos to campaigns in the works. Give some details about the demo and if one exists, a link to it's homepage.
We do, Skippys Campaign Page. (http://kissifrot2605.free.fr/campaigns.php?id=52)
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I think the new policy is spot on. there's far too much dilution of a small-ish skillbase already, and we really need to encourage the completion of campaigns.
As for needing to have a demo to qualify as a hostable campaign, it's a very bad idea IMO. Personally, I could easily release a dmeo for Reciprocity (have had the materials to do so for a while now), but it'd merely be a low quality stop gap which served only to spoil much of the surprise planned.
I think there's nothing wrong with the way MT has been working, and the way which I've adopted, which is to hold fire until something really substantial is ready. The staff can be trusted to keep the info on campaigns secret, and thus to evaluate the state of applicants.
Finally, campaigns definately don't HLP to survive - the primary reason i wanted hosted here was for the prestige of it, simple as that. In retrospect, it may have been better to have 'hidden' Reci from view until it was much closer to completion - at leats way poepl might not be so aware how long it's taken ;)
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Originally posted by aldo_14
I think there's nothing wrong with the way MT has been working, and the way which I've adopted, which is to hold fire until something really substantial is ready. The staff can be trusted to keep the info on campaigns secret, and thus to evaluate the state of applicants.
:nod:
It's great because you forget about it for a while, and then you're blown away by the release.
It also shields you from criticism on lateness. ;) Fortunes of War has taken at least a year point five longer than I had initially planned.
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Worked for Half Life 2, after all...... until it was delayed :)
Actually that's not a bad example. Also Doom3 (albeit less so). Another example of it not working so well could be duke Nukem, depending on how that turns out if it's ever completed.
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Originally posted by aldo_14
at leats way poepl might not be so aware how long it's taken ;)
Dude, it's taken so long that I can't even remember...
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Come to think of it, neither can I......
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Freespace 2 Sector will soon have at least five more slots open for Hosted websites (including sufficient bandwidth - something we keep running out of lately). None of this can be processed though until we complete the switch over to our new server. So if your in need of a home, just pass along a message for us and we'll put it on the pile when the needed resources are online. [email protected]
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just thought i'd throw into the open that anyone who would like to get hosted and is now obviously not allowed to, you still know where to go to to get hosting for files, website, etc.
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I feel like posting in reply to Hunt Smacker and Stealth that they should stop encouraging people to make new campaigns, but that's not the point. The point, which, if people keep this in mind, I will be very pleased about, is that before deciding to go off on your own with a new campaign, you offer your services and talents to an already-established project of your choice.
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I feel like posting in reply to Hunt Smacker and Stealth that they should stop encouraging people to make new campaigns, but that's not the point.
Sandwich,
You have got no authority to tell myself or Hunt Smacker to stop encouraging people to make new campaigns.
I'm sure you'll agree that simply because HLP has stopped accepting applications for campaign hosting does not mean that Freespace campaigns should stop completely. No one has the authority to tell people to stop making campaigns completely... not you, not Styxx, not Shrike, not anyone. Since campaign hosting has stopped at HLP does not mean it should stop elsewhere, which is why i'm (as well as Hunt Smacker) letting members of the community know that if they want to (now or in the future) create a campaign, they should not terminate the idea just because HLP doesn't host it anymore... we're letting the community know that there's other methods of getting campaigns/websites/files hosted, other than just on HLP.
:nod: :)
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Y'know...campaigns never really had webpages till I started doing that whole thing with Warzone keeping people aprised to what was going on.
Its a good move Setekh...I understand what demands are placed on you guys and I understand what you guys needed to do.
Campaigns do not need forums, or webpages, or anything really to be launched. There are hundreds of campaigns on the old VW Archives that came and went without webpages and plenty of people downloaded them, we know that. WildWolf and I did Aftermath through e-mail largely without a webpage dedicated to it at all. You don't need it...its a luxury item. The BWO page has been a bit of a bane of my existance...they want updates :)
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Originally posted by Stealth
Sandwich,
You have got no authority to tell myself or Hunt Smacker to stop encouraging people to make new campaigns.
You're only half right there, Stealth - we have no authority to command such things, but we do have the right to suggest it to you with our combined wisdom behind it. First, let's get straight that we're all on the same side - we both want what is best for the community. We understand that there are other means of hosting campaigns. That is not the point of debate - it's that we believe that simply starting up new campaigns is counter-intuitive to the community's desire for completed campaigns. It's the dilution of workers (I hate talking about people this way, but it's necessary for the moment) that is the real problem.
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Originally posted by IceFire
Y'know...campaigns never really had webpages till I started doing that whole thing with Warzone keeping people aprised to what was going on.
Its a good move Setekh...I understand what demands are placed on you guys and I understand what you guys needed to do.
Campaigns do not need forums, or webpages, or anything really to be launched. There are hundreds of campaigns on the old VW Archives that came and went without webpages and plenty of people downloaded them, we know that. WildWolf and I did Aftermath through e-mail largely without a webpage dedicated to it at all. You don't need it...its a luxury item. The BWO page has been a bit of a bane of my existance...they want updates :)
Thanks, Ice. That reminds me of another point I wanted to mention. The existence of a website is almost always unhelpful to the progress of the campaign itself - because you actually have to keep it 'updated', or people complain. If you think of it that way, it's simply an extra burden.
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Question: What about hosting forums for outside campaigns? Although space and stuff is nice and all, the forums I think are the real thing people are after because they draw in the community audience and allow discussion to happen regularly about the campaign, dead, alive, or crawling.
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Originally posted by Stealth
Sandwich,
You have got no authority to tell myself or Hunt Smacker to stop encouraging people to make new campaigns.
I'm sure you'll agree that simply because HLP has stopped accepting applications for campaign hosting does not mean that Freespace campaigns should stop completely. No one has the authority to tell people to stop making campaigns completely... not you, not Styxx, not Shrike, not anyone. Since campaign hosting has stopped at HLP does not mean it should stop elsewhere, which is why i'm (as well as Hunt Smacker) letting members of the community know that if they want to (now or in the future) create a campaign, they should not terminate the idea just because HLP doesn't host it anymore... we're letting the community know that there's other methods of getting campaigns/websites/files hosted, other than just on HLP.
:nod: :)
I'm quite aware of all that, Stealth, but (it seems) you're missing the point. HLP has put on hold the hosting of new campaigns for two main reasons. One reason is because every new campaign that crops up asking for help is yet another "drain" (I hate using that word, since it sounds so negative) on the community's talent. Far too many campaigns are currently dead or dying for ONE reason - not enough help. This move by HLP is to discourage people from starting new campaigns until current campaigns start reaching completion.
So of course we cannot stop anyone from offering hosting to new campaigns. On the contrary, we're quite pleased at people's willingness to help - that's one of the things I love about this community!
But on the other hand, this super-helpful attitude is, ironically, what has brought the condition of most projects nowadays to what they are - stagnation.
So in closing, that's why I said "I feel like posting..." Had I not felt reservations about saying that outright, I would have said it. But I do realize that I cannot dictate to you or Hunter or anyone else what to do with your own resources - that's ridiculous.
But what I can do, and I thnk I will do right now, is this.
Stealth, Hunter, an0n (we know you're out there somewhere ;)), and anyone else who hosts projects: I can't tell you what to do. But what I can do is ask you to consider encouraging those who come to you for hosting to first offer their talents to the already-existing projects, so that they can have the extra help they need to pass the finish line. If you do this, don't be pushy about it. Just make sure that whomever it may be is aware that it would be a greater contribution to the community to join a current campaign than to start a new one.
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Originally posted by Setekh
Thanks, Ice. That reminds me of another point I wanted to mention. The existence of a website is almost always unhelpful to the progress of the campaign itself - because you actually have to keep it 'updated', or people complain. If you think of it that way, it's simply an extra burden.
up...dated?
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Stealth, Hunter, an0n (we know you're out there somewhere ), and anyone else who hosts projects: I can't tell you what to do. But what I can do is ask you to consider encouraging those who come to you for hosting to first offer their talents to the already-existing projects, so that they can have the extra help they need to pass the finish line. If you do this, don't be pushy about it. Just make sure that whomever it may be is aware that it would be a greater contribution to the community to join a current campaign than to start a new one.
This we already do.
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Originally posted by IceFire
..
Campaigns do not need forums, or webpages, or anything really to be launched. ...
You don't need it...its a luxury item....
And what about large projects with many, many people working on?(Star Wars conversion, and I see several men having the TVWP avatar, too, for instance). Those people can hardly do any progress only by E-mailing. Nobody would know what the other nine hundred and twenty-two are doing. Those need a fourm.
My project, OK. Maybe a forum is not required until it is done. Only at most for people to tell their opinion about it after its completion.
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Originally posted by Sandwich
You what??!? You have a nearly completed campaign, and you did it all without HLP hosting?!?! How'd you do that???
;)
See my point? Lack of HLP hosting didn't stop you at all. :) Great job! :yes:
Okay people, listen up, and listen good. It's a very simple process, think, act, react, adapt and overcome. From day one, only three people have volunteered to help me with my campaign, Trashman (models), Free Terran (Forum!), and Sandwich (HLP insider who offered welcomed encouragement), all of which I am extremely grateful to. Of course I have to give thanks to the creators of the publicly release mods, who are many. My campaign, which is composed of several smaller individually downloadable campaigns, has NEVER been a drain on HLP resources. If fact, I've offered to help many times (experienced FREDer seeking employment), and only Trashman has accepted (BTW I'm still waiting for mission requirements).
The point is, with a small amount of help, my campaign has a forum, a website, THREE completed chapters (13 missions each!), and another chapter nearing completion. Think: Plan you campaign, what do I want to do and what do I need to accomplish it. Act: Find out what is available and who can and capable of producing results. React: Use public released mods, you don't have to have "special mods" just for your campagin Adapt: Can do something? Find a way around it, you might even have to change your story line. Overcome: Get the job done, even if it means you have to do most of the work.
I won't lie, it's hard work. You may feel let down when you hard work goes unrecognized, but don't be discouraged, you can't please everyone. I personally have produced far more than a lot of HLP hosted campaign have produced, and yet I can not get hosted. Do I hear "Into the Depths of Hell" mentioned anywhere at all, no. Oh well, that's life. But did I give up? No. I'll tell you why, because all it took for me was for one person to practically beg for me to release the next chapter. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm not going to give up on my campaign, I will continue to produce results, and if hardly anyone notices, so what. That one person makes it worth it.
There I've said my bit. Tear me to shreds if you want.
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How come you couldn't get hosted Noise? You sound like a fair candidate for hosting cause you have actually completed and released several chapters of your campaign.
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Originally posted by Noise
See Above
You, sir, need to pimp more. I remember chapter 1, but 2 and 3 I most certainly did not see.
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Originally posted by TopAce
And what about large projects with many, many people working on?(Star Wars conversion, and I see several men having the TVWP avatar, too, for instance). Those people can hardly do any progress only by E-mailing. Nobody would know what the other nine hundred and twenty-two are doing. Those need a fourm.
My project, OK. Maybe a forum is not required until it is done. Only at most for people to tell their opinion about it after its completion.
All yo'd need is someone who is in control, managing and assigning what work is done by the appropriate people. That can be done with e-mail, and ICQ or something similar cna be used when real-time (ish) chat is required.
Also, it;s easy enough to find a free forum.
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Chapter 3 is being released today. By this I swear!
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Originally posted by Sandwich
*chop*
And what if you've been helping people.. sorta.. for a year now and feel like creating something on your own? Is it still bad to make your own campaign then? :doubt:
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no, then you just know where the other easy ways of getting hosted are.
and still, you're supposed to show SOME forum activity.....
i still don't have a job.
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Originally posted by Noise
Chapter 3 is being released today. By this I swear!
As we posted before, if you have a completed project, you'll still be considered. I suppose you applied for hosting (sorry, with the whole work on the new site I didn't have time to review the old hosting applications) - if so, we'll review it again, with the new content, and contact you.
And KT - I know how you feel, and it's a valid point. We're not, of course, forbidding anyone from starting new projects, we're just trying to encourage them to try to help out the current ones so they're finished (as was stated many many times on this thread already). If you have your own project idea, and you really want to work on it, go ahead - when another project is released, or when you're completing your own, if you want HLP hosting it may be perfectly possible. We just can't - and won't - host any more embryonic projects right now.
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A question: If RR gets ready, can I keep a FORUM here to allow people to write their opinions about it?
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Setekh and Sandwich: I understand what you're doing, and to tell you the truth i agree 100%! Because in the last 2 or 3 months there's been half a dozen projects closed or slacking... and i undestand that it's a lag to HLP and the rest of the community, so i agree with what you're doing, BUT if someone wants to make a campaign, why not let them? If they're not hosting it as part of HLP, it's not going to be dragging down anyone :) :nod:
overall i agree with your move though :yes:
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No one is stopping anyone from starting a new campaign. They're just suggesting that people don't and saying that if they do insist on starting a new campaign don't expect to be hosted here. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
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Originally posted by karajorma
No one is stopping anyone from starting a new campaign. They're just suggesting that people don't and saying that if they do insist on starting a new campaign don't expect to be hosted here. Sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
right. it's a very good idea i think, because hopefully it'll stop a lot of the projects from slacking/stopping work completely.
but people should still start new campaigns occasionally i think :D if not with HLP
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Originally posted by Styxx
We just can't - and won't - host any more embryonic projects right now.
Define 'embryonic.'
If you mean a project that someone's just thought up and wants to make, then I agree with you.
But what if something has been worked on for a year and a half and is only now coming to fruition in a physical sense?
Some ideas take a lot of planning and when you're on your own, it takes a LOT of time to make everything.....:(
Then you have inspiration dropouts and workload increases from exterior sources and then people get annoyed at you for lack of anything for a while......
And whatever happened to that 'HLP Skills' thread that surfaced a while back?
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Sounds fair enough. Especially if it's for the overall good of the site.
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Originally posted by Stealth
so i agree with what you're doing, BUT if someone wants to make a campaign, why not let them? If they're not hosting it as part of HLP, it's not going to be dragging down anyone :) :nod:
We are letting them - we can't and aren't forbidding anyone from making new campaigns. But your second statement can and often is false - projects started outside the HLP hosting umbrella can still pull staffers out from already-progressing projects. And, if we consider the new campaign leaders as part of the community (I do), then they are devoting their own time to a separate endeavour and not helping what's already established. Thanks for your support, though.
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Originally posted by Killfrenzy
And whatever happened to that 'HLP Skills' thread that surfaced a while back?
That Classifieds thing? "Skills needed / Skills Offered"? The PHP implementation I originally looked at sucked and was crap. :p
We'll be looking into alternatives over the next few, errr... periods of time. ;)
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Originally posted by Killfrenzy
...
Some ideas take a lot of planning and when you're on your own, it takes a LOT of time to make everything.....:(
....
Not always, I wrote the RR story over two days, alone. After it is done, only minor modifications are to be done in the story.
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I said SOME not ALL. There is a difference.
Campaigns using existing ships with only a few adjustments will naturally be done in a short space of time.
Next look at Inferno, DOTA and The Swarm War. The latter uses NO existing ships (other than a few of gevettar Lars' models that DOTA is also using) and thus has taken and will take a long time.
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I meant the story can be done easily. It has no importance how many new ships might act in the campaign.
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Depends how much thought you put into the plotline. The plotline for TMA/SoR ended up the size of a small novella cause I wanted to plan out every single part of the plot so I could be sure there were no plot holes.
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Plot of Reci has effectively taken 2 years to get to it's current state.... and even then, it's only the first 10-15 missions that are definte. the plot should be the hardest thing you do - because it's the most important.
Sure, it's piss-easy to think up a scenario (I come up with about 5 every day wen I'm especially bored or on the train), but it's far harder to make it into a cohesive storyline.
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I agree with you there Aldo. It's taken me about 2 years to get TMA right. Admittedly maybe I should have done that right at the start but even so taking my time prevented TMA from being a standard Bosch returns, lets fight shivans style campaign.
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Originally posted by TopAce
I meant the story can be done easily. It has no importance how many new ships might act in the campaign.
making plot is hard:)
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*makes the perfect plot*
What's so hard about that? :D
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Mine is perfecter.
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Mine is perfecter.
i know;)
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See that Sandy? I have witnesses. :p
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Not for long!
*deals with KT's witnesses*
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*has logs
;)
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Not for long!
*deals with KT's witnesses*
*has plot to Angels of the Damned*
;)
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Oh yes, I have documents too. Backed up to Pluto and back. :p
Actually.. now that I think about it, if NW were to fall, and my hard drive were to crash, and everyone of my participating staffies were to have simultaneous hard drive crashes, I'd be ****ed.
:nervous:
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Originally posted by Knight Templar
Oh yes, I have documents too. Backed up to Pluto and back. :p
Actually.. now that I think about it, if NW were to fall, and my hard drive were to crash, and everyone of my participating staffies were to have simultaneous hard drive crashes, I'd be ****ed.
:nervous:
i have it printed out :p
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let's just hope your house doesn't burn down. Think you can install a sprinkler system? You can never be too careful these days...
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Check your smoke alarms
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Okay, methinks this doesn't need to be sticky anymore. :p