Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Setekh on October 09, 2003, 09:28:34 am
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Guys, as some of you may know, the SCP coders do indeed have their own internal forum - they requested it, and we granted it. I'll leave it to them if they wish to tell you their exact reasoning, but I can tell you now that the internal exists only to help them code better - not to keep anything 'secret'. What I am here to tell you about is the CVS, and how you can keep up with every little change the coders make.
In case you didn't know, CVS (//"http://www.wincvs.org") stands for Concurrent Versions System, and is basically the mechanism through which all the coders can work on the same files concurrently and submit their updates, while keeping track of the changes made by all the other coders. We code-inept people can watch their progress, though, by downloading CVS and checking out the bits of code as they fiddle. In order to get CVS working, you'll first need to download WinCVS 1.2 (the latest stable version) - here's a list of mirrors (http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/cvsgui/WinCvs120.zip?download). Once you've downloaded it and installed, what you need to do is head over to the SCP website (http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fsscp), specifically, the page on using CVS (http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fsscp/dev/gettingstarted.php). Follow the instructions there - and once you're logged in, download the latest build and have a poke around. You'll get the hang of it surprisingly quickly.
If you have any questions about the SCP at all, the public forum is still open for questions (after you've looked through the FAQ, of course!). The public forum will only be slightly quieter since the workshop has been moved behind closed doors, but remember, the best way to help the coders help you is to help them test out their new builds and give them lots of pretty little screenshots that show off their work, or Fred some missions that use the new features. Get to it! :)
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I knew there was an internal forum. I was told there wasn't. I knew it. Lying sobs. Can we at least read it, or, I hate to be childish, but is there stuff that you don't want us to read?
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no wonder this forum is mostly dead now....
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When were you told there was no internal?
They have decided so far (with great deliberation and debate, I might add) to keep it private, for their own reasons. If they want to tell you, I am certain they will.
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well, that was obvious there is an internal forum, when you see new posts on the main forum page, but none in the forum itself, that means someone posted in an internal forum.
d'uh.
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To be honest, I am glad they have somewhere quiet to work, it's hard enough coding without having comments flying back and forth between long stretches of code. I've said it before and I'll say it again, it will help get us all a more stable, reliable and better looking SCP, so it gets a massive thumbs up in my opinion.
Besides, do you really want to wade through pages and pages of code dump, which is probably what this forum consists of mainly?
Flipside :D
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Thanks for the support, Flipside - it's nice to know someone recognises the fact that these guys deserve this (in fact, the SCP forum was originally going to be solely internal), and that it really is for the best. In any case, it is only under a trial period right now. The coders are under orders to post conscientiously. ;)
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well Why don't they tell us the reasons for keeping it private.
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Probably because they are asleep.
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Actually, they DID tell you the reasons in the other thread. Specifically its an internal forum where they can discuss the code etc, without getting threads slammed with feature requests.
If internal access is very important for you, the simple solution is to ask to join the SCP team formally.
Let them have their privacy. As Steak said, if you're really curious, just cvsup the nightly code.
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Technically, it isn't only about code, just technical discussions, such as how to implement lighting in the TnL version (as right now it's still buggy). That isn't code, mostly, but rather discussion in a higher level, but that doesn't make it something to which a non-coder could contribute, most of the times (I say most, because, rarely, maybe someone who doesn't understand the underlying system could suggest something helpful, but most (>99%) of the time it just ends up as posts which are totally useless).
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Originally posted by Flipside
Besides, do you really want to wade through pages and pages of code dump, which is probably what this forum consists of mainly?
:nervous: But if they've got a private forum they might be saying bad things about me :nervous:
:lol:
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Originally posted by Flipside
Besides, do you really want to wade through pages and pages of code dump, which is probably what this forum consists of mainly?
Flipside :D
actually thus far it's been more "tehre is an issue in module X, it does function Y wrong"
and from there
and as a couple people said - a lot of high level theory in the Internal TnL thread
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but the logic doesn't make sense. How does having a private forum that non-SCP people can read but not post in allow people to request features? Feature requests will still be thrown around no matter what you do. If you announce stuff in the main SCP forum(IE progress) you are going to get swamped with requests. As it stands it is also those feature requests that keeps people interested and wondering about stuff. If those questions about it start becoming ignored and left unanswered people will just not care as much.
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What you've missed, though, redmenace, is that at present requests are not everything. Innumerable requests have already been made and right now what needs to be achieved is a lot of groundwork. Further requests will only hamper this stage of the SCP's development - and even if they were to respond to all your requests, to keep people interested, then that would merely slow down their work with the HT&L, for example.
Do you want a project whose goal is constantly interesting the people and keeping them wondering about stuff, or instead aiming for a solid, bug-free product at the end of the line? Give me the latter for my money - and that's the other point. These guys are contributing their time and effort for free. They've already decided what they want for now, and it is not as if they haven't thought about it (I know, I was the one pushing them to do so). Let them work in peace - at least for now.
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U guys are gonna do whatever you want anyway, and if an internal forum is what you guys need to get progress then by all means do it. But you have to admit for those who aren't part of the SCP it makes them feel like they can't see this grow or watch things develop. Everyone going to this SCP forum is now on a "Need To Know Basis" if they're not part of the SCP team and that makes people feel hurt (for lack of a better word). Especially when it's something they love (Freespace).
Please consider having a forum where only SCP people can post but others can't. That way we can see what you guys are doing and how things are developing without us getting in the way.
And if by a freakish chance someone out there knows code or something and has a suggestion on how to implement something from reading your private forum, they can easily post in the normal SCP forum where everyone can post. They could just easily say: "Hey, I read in your private forum that you're having trouble geting Y function from module X. I think you can do it better by using blah blah blah"
CVS is something I won't even bother with as I won't understand it anyway and gives you feeling of being unattached. Seeing SCP people actually make threads or posts about those features or codes is what keeps people hooked.
Anyway, that's my two cents and hope there's some consideration. SCP rules and we'll always look forward to releases and tests. We just hope we can see behind the scenes.
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You guys find the balance, I am just doing what I do best: pointing out the obvious that and making a rucous. I understand that there needs to be alot of ground work done. before they can fully work on turrets(just for an example, like what nuke suggested) they need to fully disect the AI coded and other things. And H T&L needs alot of work. there are massive bugs. And another point. Those of us beta testers, many of us still have those old TNT2 Ultra cards, we have outlasted our usefullness to the project. For now on the burden is on those with Geforce 2 and beyond. also will Phreak and Bobboau keep there builds up todate in there signatures? That also reminds me how it phreaks new perseus coming along?
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Besides, once TH&L is implemented and stable, I am sure they will be happy to filter back through the requests and see what is a good idea and what is not. Freeing up the CPU by letting the Graphics card do what it is supposed to opens up a lot of possibilities if the coders are feeling ambitious and ambivalent enough, they post often enough on the SCP Main forum to get a good feel of what the majority of people want. Thanks to the source code guys, Freespace 2 is more flexible in the modding and mission design areas than ANY other Space Sim out there. Adding new ships is becoming easier and easier, thanks to Modelview, Kazan and Bobbeau.
I'm willing to wait until HT&L is finished before I see a single extra feature added to the SCP, it will give me some time to catch up with the current updates and see how they can be implemented ingame at the very least :)
Flipside :D
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Originally posted by Venom
well, that was obvious there is an internal forum, when you see new posts on the main forum page, but none in the forum itself, that means someone posted in an internal forum.
d'uh.
venom- Poirot:drevil:
and it is obvious that they need an internal forum, I mean, this forum is a bit too messy to be possible to technically discuss of code here, and a forum is for many people (like me, for example, for many reasons) faster and easyer than emails or chat
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Originally posted by redmenace
You guys find the balance, I am just doing what I do best: pointing out the obvious that and making a rucous.
And, believe it or not, I appreciate you for it. I'm glad we've reached something of a consensus though - and I'm sure the coders appreciate your willingness to help (even if your hardware is a bit outdated). :yes:
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We seriously need a change control mechanism
and having a private forum is not going to keep us from posting int he public forum with updates - we're only going to post the information you need to see - not massive code dumps - you can see the code by checking out the CVS or asking for a code dump ala PM
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thing is, us non-coders cant really figure out whats going on just by CVS... maybe it would help if someone (like Steak) could post regular reports in here...
that would keep me happy :)
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this is so much better way:)
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whats the password on the cvs server?
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anonymous/anonymous IIRC
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Jus curious, and not sure if this would help a great deal, but would it be possible for the general public to view the internal forum, but not post? That way we could see progress, but we wouldn't annoy them by asking questions about code stuff.
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Originally posted by Drew
thing is, us non-coders cant really figure out whats going on just by CVS... maybe it would help if someone (like Steak) could post regular reports in here...
that would keep me happy :)
I will certainly do my best, but I'm expecting the coders themselves do just that. ;)
Originally posted by Krackers87
whats the password on the cvs server?
The entire procedure for getting CVS running, including passwords and logins, can be found here (http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fsscp/dev/gettingstarted.php). Kazan remembers right though, it's 'anonymous'.
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Originally posted by Solatar
Jus curious, and not sure if this would help a great deal, but would it be possible for the general public to view the internal forum, but not post? That way we could see progress, but we wouldn't annoy them by asking questions about code stuff.
Has been considered, and was what I originally preferred, but the coders want to keep it this way for at least little while to see how it goes - as far as I can gather, it is just a more comfortable atmosphere (not always the feeling of having eyes constantly prying in - it makes a difference) to work on this sort of thing. We'll see how it goes.
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C'mon guys, even if you were able to view the internal, and not allowed to reply, what would stop you from posting a thread in the public forum, and say, "Hey, I saw you did 'blah', while you're changing that, can you do 'blah'?"
As much as I like the idea of open discussion, I think they really would benefit from an internal. :yes:
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Originally posted by Raa Tor'h
As much as I like the idea of open discussion, I think they really would benefit from an internal. :yes:
:nervous: Say no more ;)
Sorry, long night ;)
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I know, I could have phrased that better, but bah!
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ooo i see some of the stuff they are implementing into the scource with CVS...
i should start a CVS watcher thread :D
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Originally posted by redmenace
I knew there was an internal forum. I was told there wasn't.
The only such post I could find was this:Originally posted by Bobboau
what interanal forum, there is no thing...
no jig is up!....
YOU KNOW NOTHING, NOTHING!!!!
AHHAHAHAHAHAAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!
/*inhales*/
haha.... heh...
which seemed to be clearly sarcastic in tone.Originally posted by Drew
no wonder this forum is mostly dead now....
What made you think that?Originally posted by karajorma
:nervous: But if they've got a private forum they might be saying bad things about me :nervous:
We don't need a private forum for that... :p
*says bad things about karajorma*
j/k ;)Originally posted by J3Vr6
And if by a freakish chance someone out there knows code or something and has a suggestion on how to implement something from reading your private forum, they can easily post in the normal SCP forum where everyone can post. They could just easily say: "Hey, I read in your private forum that you're having trouble geting Y function from module X. I think you can do it better by using blah blah blah"
Anyone is free to request internal access. But I should mention that we prefer someone to have some familiarity with the code before they start suggesting things.
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I'm going to point people to Flipside's, Raa Tor'h's, and mikhael's posts for the various reasons for us adding a private forum. In summary, we aren't trying to hide anything from you - we just need a quiet, uncluttered place to work. :) Why would we spend all this trouble adding features and then hide them from the community?
Now, one way to encourage us is to create missions that use features we add. I've seen a whole bunch of screenshots of
Bobboau's graphical stuff, which has encouraged him to add more things like specular highlighting. However, I haven't seen any missions with my new sexps, with custom nameplates, or with persistent variables, so I've backed away from adding anything major. If I see people creating cool new missions with my stuff, though, that might change. ;) This can probably go for any coder on the SCP team.
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Mmh, I'd request access to prevent further weird names for modelling stuff ( self illum maps called glow maps, glow effects called overexposure, specular maps called don't remember what ... ) but I can't bother :p
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um venom those names make sense...
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all those effects have real names in 3D applications. you wouldn't like a modeller to try making some code and coming with a new name for an existing command, would you? It's highly confusing, I know what I mean when i'm talking about glows ( glows being volumetric light effect that surrounds something ), but here if I'm talking glows, people will thing I'm talking about a self illumination map.
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[q]Originally posted by Drew
ooo i see some of the stuff they are implementing into the scource with CVS...
i should start a CVS watcher thread :D[/q]
Now that's an idea. ;):yes:
Originally posted by Venom
all those effects have real names in 3D applications. you wouldn't like a modeller to try making some code and coming with a new name for an existing command, would you? It's highly confusing, I know what I mean when i'm talking about glows ( glows being volumetric light effect that surrounds something ), but here if I'm talking glows, people will thing I'm talking about a self illumination map.
That's a very perceptive point, what are currently called glow maps should be called self-illuminating maps, and the overexposure effect should be called the glow effect.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
We don't need a private forum for that... :p
*says bad things about karajorma*
[Homer Simpson] Okay Goober. Your name just made it onto THE LIST! [/Homer]
Originally posted by Goober5000
Now, one way to encourage us is to create missions that use features we add. I've seen a whole bunch of screenshots of
Bobboau's graphical stuff, which has encouraged him to add more things like specular highlighting. However, I haven't seen any missions with my new sexps, with custom nameplates, or with persistent variables, so I've backed away from adding anything major. If I see people creating cool new missions with my stuff, though, that might change. ;) This can probably go for any coder on the SCP team.
The problem is that bob's stuff is very easy to show. Just start up the new engine with a model designed for it and bang! You can see it.
Your stuff on the other hand can only be shown when a campaign is released. How can you show a SEXP in action otherwise?
Even if I work flat out SoR is still several months away from release so all the stuff like nameplates, persistant variables etc that I am planning to use in that won't be seen for months. But be assured that I am definately using lots of that stuff in SoR and MG.
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The only reason I called it overexposure is because there were already glow maps and I didn't want to confuse people. If you want a proper list:
Shine Mapping (aka Specular Mapping) = Gloss Mapping
Glow Map = Emissive Lightmap
OX Effect = HDR (High Dynamic Range) Lens Glare
We will also no doubt in the future come upon:
DOT3 (Dot Product 3) Bump Mapping
Environment Mapping
Bump Environment Mapping
Maybe even:
Bump Hightmap (Used to create a bump normal map)
Cube Normalization Map
Stencil Buffer Shadowing (Self-shadowing)
That should make everyone happy.
:rolleyes:
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roll your eyes all you want, but you can't imagine how many tiimes I has to explain something I want just because the terms aren't right, wether I use the normal term or the modeller term, so give me a break :rolleyes:.
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Originally posted by karajorma
[Homer Simpson] Okay Goober. Your name just made it onto THE LIST![/Homer]
:nervous: :p
But be assured that I am definately using lots of that stuff in SoR and MG.
Excellent. :) :yes:
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Originally posted by Sticks
The only reason I called it overexposure is because there were already glow maps and I didn't want to confuse people.
You're right there, it wasn't your fault really. But don't think this is any less important than it is - it'll cause prodigious amounts of confusion in the future if we leave it, I guarantee.
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Originally posted by Sticks
The only reason I called it overexposure is because there were already glow maps and I didn't want to confuse people. If you want a proper list:
Shine Mapping (aka Specular Mapping) = Gloss Mapping
Glow Map = Emissive Lightmap
OX Effect = HDR (High Dynamic Range) Lens Glare
Erm, I wouldn't really call the glow effect HDR, as it doesn't really use a range of colors outside the range of 0.0 to 1.0, which requires either a floating-point framebuffer, or (the way it's usually done in games, like Splinter Cell) a hack with register combiners or pixel shaders (in >PS1.4 versions, as PS1.4 already supports a dynamic range of -8..8)
Originally posted by Sticks
We will also no doubt in the future come upon:
DOT3 (Dot Product 3) Bump Mapping
Environment Mapping
Bump Environment Mapping
Maybe even:
Bump Hightmap (Used to create a bump normal map)
Cube Normalization Map
Stencil Buffer Shadowing (Self-shadowing)
That should make everyone happy.
:rolleyes: [/B]
I'm in favor of shadow maps, actually, as they are a whole lot more scalable (Too slow - use lower resolution maps) unlike stencil-buffers which are all-or-nothing. Not to mention that shadow maps are really good for directional lights.
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I think the clincher was the URL I posted for a new bug tracking system, it was somethign i felt comfortable sharing becasue I trust teh SCP coders, and i wanted an opinion before I set up a trial one for you guys.
But I would not have posted it here in general, for anyone to look thru, sorry, expediency mandated the best way to get the teams opinion was to post an example.
The team also expressed a sincere desire to have a place to work. The ideas are still here, but we got so many "I am not a coder, but..." opinions on the code oriented threads it became difficult ot sort the signal fro mthe noise.
It's been mandated that everyone post out here though, feature additions, requests, etc. If we fail to do that, then the private forum will be made publically readable. If it ever becomes readable, we will probably more vigourasly moderate this forum though, to mitigate any threads spawning because someone doesn't undertand something.
CVS is great for keeping an eye on things, the discussion here in the public forum is a good place to get information, but we needed a place to ask "did somoene forget to check in file x?" without getting distracted.
Sorry. Give it time. Don;t assume we're jerks. Give us a bit of a break and see if we hold up our end of the bargain on the posting. We had a mailing list, none of you knew about, very little got talked about there that wasn't directly technical and generally uninteresting. If something gets sparked in the private forum that should be in general, I asked the HLP guys to police us and help us make sure it gets dumped in the right place.
As for post counts, some of the more technical posts got moved for reference, we can move a copy of those back here for your reference.
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
The team also expressed a sincere desire to have a place to work. The ideas are still here, but we got so many "I am not a coder, but..." opinions on the code oriented threads it became difficult ot sort the signal fro mthe noise.
yay. I am no longer just a HLP member, but "noise" also. :p I would like to request that my user description be changed from "myrmidon" to "noise"
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And of course, the sarcasm...
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on a happier less rude and conflicting note....how was your conference Inquisitor?
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conference was awesome, our game took runner up for best of show, and we only lost by a handful of votes.
our's will ship first ;) so we win there.
we also tied for best art. the team is pumped, and there is alot of work to do between now and ship (before christmas).
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
conference was awesome, our game took runner up for best of show, and we only lost by a handful of votes.
our's will ship first ;) so we win there.
we also tied for best art. the team is pumped, and there is alot of work to do between now and ship (before christmas).
Dude, congratulations! Have you got a link to your own game? I haven't seen it yet...
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Originally posted by Inquisitor
conference was awesome, our game took runner up for best of show, and we only lost by a handful of votes.
our's will ship first ;) so we win there.
we also tied for best art. the team is pumped, and there is alot of work to do between now and ship (before christmas).
oooh nice. how did people react to fs_open?