Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Fineus on October 14, 2003, 05:31:32 am
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Ok, here's the brief. During my holiday I did a bit of sun bathing and during that time I read a few books and thought a bit about possibilities for the SCP. The following is the list of what I came up with.. I've no idea what's possible and what's not - this is just a run down of what I came up with. Make of it what you will and - hopefully - implement some of what I came up with into the code!
Without further ado, and in no real order:
1: FRED2 Ambient Lighting Slider
A slider in the FRED2 mission options section that determins the amount of ambient light in a mission. Everything will be affected by this light with the exception of the HUD and the Jump Nodes (which are HUD generated). Useful for specific space where lighting is brighter (a nebula with a newly formed sun in it etc.) or darker.
2: All Missile Models Selectable
This could be useful for any number of reasons, none strikingly important but I doubt it would be hard to do. Could provide some pretty cool screenshots, and better show off the missile models (which are so rarely seen).
3: FRED2 Sun Intensity Slider
Similar to point 1, but with the advantage of controlable light without the need for different suns. That is to say that one sun could be brighter than another, and so its light would be brighter - and thus appear more towards that hue than the hue of the dimmer sun. Or, a sun could be present without massively blinding players and screwing up the lighting on ships in the game by having so many light sources present.
4: Moveable Ship Sections
These would be really cool, for both player operated and automatic purposes. The first instance being for such things as the S-Foils on an X-Wing or for missile bay doors and such. The second being for weapons that feature recoil style firing (similar to the AA guns of WW2, or the station pulse defences on Babylon 5). Also good for landing bays and such on larger ships, or the seemingly movable "claws" of a Sathanas. The possibilities are endless.
5: Pulsating Glow Mapping
Take your average glow map and make it pulse at a rate (determined by .TBL file?). Good for bio-tech ships, ships with failing power and so on (see the ending FS2 movie as the Sathani' power up their supernova weaponry). I'd really like to see this make it in.
6: In Game HUD Movies
Allows a window to open in the center of the screen displaying a movie, similar in essence to a COMM window but with the impression of relaying "live feed" of gun camera footage, probe data, or update a players orders mid-battle without resorting to red-alert missions and such.
7: Expendable After Burners
Ever played Wing Commander Prophecy and flown the Wasp? Then you'll know about expendable "super afterburner" it carries. A one shot rocket device for fast intercept purposes. Would be great for intercept missions and so on, but with the added strategy of only having it once as opposed to the rechargable standard burner.
8: Sequential Lights
Go look at a plane in flight at night. It's got lights that blink on / off. Why not do that for FS? It'd look fantastic. Also, this could be put to use with landing strips as well as nav bouys and so on.
9: Unstable Subspace Flight (etc)
Subspace seems deeply un-used. If I had my way it'd carry the same sort of threat as Babylon5s Hyperspace does. To aid this a start would be such things as unstable jump nodes, the allowance for lightning in normal space as well as in nebulas (and thus in subspace as well... it'd be very creepy). Anything that can be done to jazz subspace up a bit and point out that it's just as strategically vital a place as real space is (heck, the last FS mission sees you fight inside subspace).
10: Light Source Blinding
When you face the sun you get a white out of the screen, why not also see this effect when flying to close to ships engines or other bright light sources such as firing beam cannons and such. This would only be a local effect so you'd have to be close, but it's still a small change that'd make sense.
11: Smoke Emissions
I imagine this can be done via the particle code we already have. But one of the things I loved about Starlancer was the intense damage you could do to a fighter and really see it. Fires and smoke started in abundance and you really knew if you were in trouble when you started smoking. This would be great in FS2... the same smoke could also be used for vents and such, perhaps for cooling purposes etc... whatever takes a persons fancy.
12: Red Out / Black Out
This is one of those things that people might hate... but if you've played a flight game it does add a certain something to the way people have to fight. High G maneuvers cause red outs / black outs. Granted FS2 is set in the future and might have guards against this, but perhaps it'd be cool none the less. The code for the screen fade is already there in the sun-glare code, it'd just be a case of applying it if/when a player does a particularly extreme maneuver.
13: Chargeable Primary Weapons
What better example than Descents Fusion Cannon? The longer you hold down the primary fire, the more charged the weapon becomes and thus the more powerful. Release trigger to fire. Overcharging results in damage to the players own ship. Simple, effective, fun.
14: Newtonian Physics
Don't panic. This needn't be complete newtonian physics. A toggle could be added for "free flight", that is the ship can turn in any direction but continue to move in the direction it was originally facing when the toggle was turned on. This allows for many B5 style "turning round and shooting the face of the guy persuing you" type stuff. Just make sure the AI doesn't use it ;)
15: Partial Repairing of Hulls W/ Welding Effect
Two things here really, support ships able to repair a players ships hull slightly (a random amount between 5 and 30%?) But no more than that for the entire mission... it's a support ship after all - not a repair facility. Also, if this is taking place a welding effect could be created.. perhaps similar to when a ship has taken critical damage - but red - (you know, the lightning arc effect). Not to sure about this though...
16: Rail Guns
See Quake3 I guess... the trail should certainly be similar and fade after a matter of seconds.
17: Fire Support
Again, not to sure about this. A comm option allows the player to request fire support - all ships without a current target will direct as much fire as they can on the selected hostile target. Note that they won't change their current orders or alter course (unless they are fighters/bombers without orders).
18: Area Effect Mines
Allows the creation of mine weapons - any ship detected withing a .tbl set distance (perhaps 2K) around an armed mine will cause the detonation of the mine.
19: Subsystems Damaged Locally
If a subsystem is disabled/destroyed then the area of the subsystem will give off electrical arcs similar to when the entire hull is critically damaged. Pretty aesthetic, but who cares ;)
20: HUD Damage
If a players subsystem is hit by energy draining weapons such as EMPs, or if it is destroyed, then the system will blink offline - that is it will simply disappear from the HUD all together untill the system is repaired.
21: Autodock
If a players (or any other) fighter/bomber is within docking distance (300m?) of a capital ship then the ship is moved automatically to dock with the ship. This assumes that the players craft can be moved "remotely" so to speak... but it's high time we could dock with something other than subspace!
22: Shuddering
When a capital ships main drive comes online (or when it engages its subspace drive) it shudders slightly from the increased energy activity such a device might cause.
23: Directional Thrusters
I might be getting the wrong impression about how FS ships move about... but in RL rockets and such rotate/change direction via small thrusters. It could be neat to see these little jets firing on fighters / bombers etc as they change direction. Not sure how much of a resource hog it'd be though...
24: Subspace Inhibitors
If a ship is within the field of a subspace inhibitor, it cannot jump out unless it leaves the area (which could take bloomin' ages) or destroys the inhibitor. This could be effected with comm chatter, graphics and so on. Take a page out of Star Wars "Interdictor" class destroyer to see what I mean.
25: Asteroid Storms
Fast moving small rocks are set to move from point A to B (could use the existing waypoint system for this). The storm could be specified with speed, density and area of effect.... could make a change from the average asteroid field.
26: Improved Asteroid Physics
When an asteroid hits another it should split into smaller chunks and move off in other directions at a faster pace. What's really needed for this is a lot more different asteroid models of a massive variation is size... anything for a little variety. Star Wars: AOTC had a great asteroid chase scene. If we could get that kind of thing in game... well... wow.
27: Blurring
A blur effect around strong light sources (suns, jump points and so on). Simple but sweet.
28: Hull Breach / Weld Effects
Used in ship repairs / construction or where a ship is being borded. Possibly have spark particles where the two ships intersect?
29: Automatic Detail Increase On Screenshots
As the name says, this should probably be an option for most people but it'd be nice to have the best possible looking screenshots... hence if there's any way for the game to force the highest possible detail setting in every aspect of the game (and then drop it down to whatever it was before) - that'd be neat. However this could be tricky and also not used much... I'm in two minds myself.
30: Ignitable Gasses
Area effect gasses that can be placed either in game or perhaps within containers etc. Hence containers filled with certain cargo are moer / less explosive than others. Exploding containers could reference a certain .tbl tag for explosives with a unique sound, shockwave and so on for each entry (if desired - otherwise a generic effect is used). This would be really neat and emphasise players being careful about what happens to cargo and so on - since a cargo container of meson particles going up would be bad news for everyone in the area - and the effects should reflect that.
31: Nebula Density Affects Flight
Different densities of gas give off different flight charachteristics. So one particular nebula might be dense and provide more resistance against craft going through it - while others may provide no resistance at all.
32: Collision Siren
Another one that should be an option - not everyone wants this in their ear. When the players craft comes within a certain distance (5m?) of another ship or object, a low collision siren sounds. This is another effort to enhance the feeling of being in a cockpit.
33: Subsystem Targetting in Main Display
As the name suggests, the subsystem the player has targetted is surrounded by a targeting box/bracket in the main screen as well as the targetting box.
34: Remote Control Craft
Player operable craft from remote such as probes and such... the player can take control of another ship by remote but is still vunerable in their own ship.
35: Enterable Nebula
I don't think I need to say much on this - everyone wants it. Could find out the similar kind of system to that that Star Trek: Klingon Academy uses?
36: Supernova Shockwave
A shockwave animation to acompany supernova events.
37: Black Holes
Based on a flat plane model/animation with gravitational pull effect on ships. Possibly stretch ships slightly as they become drawn in?
38: Scale Alteration
This one might be considered "BIG". In my opinion the sense of scale in the game is kinda flawed... things like capital ships look big from a way off, but when you get closer to them you can still see an aweful lot of them - the sense of scale just seems wrong somehow. It would be good to redo this to give off a better sense of scale - these ships are supposed to be big dammit! ;)
Also, if the ships in the game are re-worked for improved detail and such, missiles and so on should reflect this change and be *incredibly* small compared to the craft that carries them, otherwise it seems that the craft in game are cavernous to be able to carry several hundred Furies or even 6 Helios bombs. There must be room for the pilot in there somewhere! The solution? Reduce the size of ordinance (while maintaining detail).
39: Impact Mortars
Weaponry alteration. Allowance for Fire and Forget bombs with no guidance lock of any kind (but also can't alter course untill they hit something). They're slow moving but incredibly powerful. Detonate around 10 metres away from any large object they come into contact with.
40: Momentum
Kinda with reference to the above, objects have momentum so that it takes some time for them to come to a halt. The AI might have to be redone so that ships come to a halt at the end of their waypoints but spend some time slowing down beforehand.
41: Detachable Ordinance
Like the name suggests, missiles and such can be mounted outside the ship that carries them and dropped - exactly in the same style as todays aircraft do. This is especially possible with the upped poly count that HT&L provides. It's fairly aesthetic but who cares.
42: Player Controllable Turrets
This may link in with the whole "fly by wire" idea above, but in this players could (REM) link to a turret and control its fire. Again this would leave the players ship dead in the water and very vunerable.
43: Squad Specific Image Maps
If a squadron.tbl references ship image maps other than default then these maps are used instead of the default maps. This could be good to enhance the concept that a SOC squadron of Erinyes might get a custom paint job on their fighters to indicate they were special ops - but the original vanilla paint job of Erinyes could still fly in the same mission without having to worry about changing models around and so on. I really like this idea myself if it's at all possible to do, it allows a lot more immersion without the user having to fiddle around with files and such. Just place all the maps and tables where they should go and you're away.
44: Guided Mine Code
When a ship is (x) meters from the mine, the mine fires a one shot rocket at the target - it either hits, is destroyed or misses and detonates in empty space.
45: Billowing Textures
For effects such as sails, flags and such. Ok there's no air in space but who cares. I'm sure there's a use if it's at all possible.
So there you go, I hope some of them get used - or at least considered! Heh... anyhow, discuss :)
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Well, if you make the missiles too smaller, then how the hell can you shoot them when you have to? (missionwise)
As for the mortar thing, well, have you played Inferno? Cause if you haven't I think you will find something shivan just like what you say. All in all good suggestions, some of them excellent.
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I'll add an idea:
46: emp waves
tbl flag? when a bomb ( nuke :p ) goes off, it disrupts random subsystems on all the nearby ships ( range set in tbl? ) and renders the nebula emp effect for the HUD. can be given to beams too.
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8 is already implemented - see the POF GLOW chunk
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some of those can be done in fred.
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2. can be done with cheats IIRC
5. can be done with animated glowmapping
6. why can't this be done using a comm ani and a message?
7. you mean glowpoints?
12. really, accelerating and truning at the level you do in FS2 would be lethal.
14. wasn;t the physics code described by DaveB as a "terrible, horrific mess"?
18. add perimeters for movement, size and class.
20. no, you would miss seeing that your comms would be off, and wouldn;t now that your orders might have changed.
21. can be done with SEXP's, AFAIK
24. SEXP's.
28. i don;t get it.
30. cool if you put the gass in space, but if you do it inside containers you can do it using existing stuff.
31. see my commetns on the physics code.
35. ouch, that IS hard.
37. well, really, you couldn;t see much of it, and in reality youd go down with them.
38. is already possible AFAIK IIRC, using a POV command line, and the missile thing, can't any modf do that already?
40. physics, brrr.
43. isn;t that alreadt possible using some of Bob's magic?
the rest sounds pretty good.
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
23: Directional Thrusters
I might be getting the wrong impression about how FS ships move about... but in RL rockets and such rotate/change direction via small thrusters. It could be neat to see these little jets firing on fighters / bombers etc as they change direction. Not sure how much of a resource hog it'd be though...
iv been wanting to see this in FS2 ever scince i got the game :)
it would be awesome coupled with newtonian physics :D
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I totally oppose 31.
In real space it's hard enough to find a nebula that blocks your sight when you are in it actually, because every space nebula is a zillion or so times less dense than earths atmosphere, so it's impossible that the nebula density slows down whatever craft you are flying(Unless you crash into particular huge stuff like rocks or something)
As for 26:
It would be enough for me if they stop asteroids from flying through each other. Yuck!:ick
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For 38 try entering -fov 0.35 into the command line or launcher. The ships are MUCH bigger then :)
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I actually like the idea of enterable nebula very very much, yes, I know it's not 'real' but then, that is why I bought this game, because it is a game, not a simulation. I remember the days of Frontier and 'jousting' at 30,000 kph, you fired one shot and took 5 minutes to turn around for the next one :( Ever since then, I've been a big non-fan of 'real' ;)
I like the idea of recoiling guns, but to keep backward compatability, I would have thought it would need to be part of the table file, which would have to contain the 'shrink point' probably the axis and amount of shrink per shot. This would look more like 'recoil' as used in most artillery systems :)
Flipside.
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We did have accurate asteroid fields in FS1 - except that it could be a real resource hog.
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Not scientifically accurate though. In real asteroid fields you can only see one asteroid at a time. If the asteroids were that close together their gravity would have pulled them together into a planet or moon long ago :)
But they look good so I don't care much :)
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...unless they are pulled on their course by a greater force.
For instance the belts of Saturn.
Watch more Macross or Robotech.
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i remember that loclized nebulas were possible by sacrificing a race taking their engine glows making them poofs, putting engine glows on each side and making them an asteroid field with no texturing so they can be fown through.
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Yeah but that would just look... horrible.
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Heh heh, you called yourself Thunder. :D
Me likes your ideas man, hope they can be mostly accomplished. I do agree that some of them are 'silly', but this is a game. :nod:
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OK, Thunder, you obviously haven't been keeping track of the SCP. Almost all of these can be implemented in one form or another, and some searching would have helped you make more informed requests. I'm gonna go over each one with what I know.
1: FRED2 Ambient Lighting Slider
A slider in the FRED2 mission options section that determins the amount of ambient light in a mission. Everything will be affected by this light with the exception of the HUD and the Jump Nodes (which are HUD generated). Useful for specific space where lighting is brighter (a nebula with a newly formed sun in it etc.) or darker.
Fantastic idea. :yes: Should be looked into.
2: All Missile Models Selectable
This could be useful for any number of reasons, none strikingly important but I doubt it would be hard to do. Could provide some pretty cool screenshots, and better show off the missile models (which are so rarely seen).
I don't understand; do you mean targetable, or what?
3: FRED2 Sun Intensity Slider
Similar to point 1, but with the advantage of controlable light without the need for different suns. That is to say that one sun could be brighter than another, and so its light would be brighter - and thus appear more towards that hue than the hue of the dimmer sun. Or, a sun could be present without massively blinding players and screwing up the lighting on ships in the game by having so many light sources present.
Not necessary, IMO. How often are you going to be using multiple suns?
4: Moveable Ship Sections
These would be really cool, for both player operated and automatic purposes. The first instance being for such things as the S-Foils on an X-Wing or for missile bay doors and such. The second being for weapons that feature recoil style firing (similar to the AA guns of WW2, or the station pulse defences on Babylon 5). Also good for landing bays and such on larger ships, or the seemingly movable "claws" of a Sathanas. The possibilities are endless.
This would be an immense improvement but would require a new POF version number and huge amounts of rewriting both model handling code and POF data. It's possible but far off in the future.
5: Pulsating Glow Mapping
Take your average glow map and make it pulse at a rate (determined by .TBL file?). Good for bio-tech ships, ships with failing power and so on (see the ending FS2 movie as the Sathani' power up their supernova weaponry). I'd really like to see this make it in.
Easy to do; glowmaps support ANIs. I've made a pulsating Sathanas glowmap ANI that does just what you're talking about.
6: In Game HUD Movies
Allows a window to open in the center of the screen displaying a movie, similar in essence to a COMM window but with the impression of relaying "live feed" of gun camera footage, probe data, or update a players orders mid-battle without resorting to red-alert missions and such.
This can be done if you take the trouble to make your own comm window animations.
7: Expendable After Burners
Ever played Wing Commander Prophecy and flown the Wasp? Then you'll know about expendable "super afterburner" it carries. A one shot rocket device for fast intercept purposes. Would be great for intercept missions and so on, but with the added strategy of only having it once as opposed to the rechargable standard burner.
Simple. Set your ship's afterburner recharge rate to zero. You start the mission with it full; once it's used up you're out of luck.
8: Sequential Lights
Go look at a plane in flight at night. It's got lights that blink on / off. Why not do that for FS? It'd look fantastic. Also, this could be put to use with landing strips as well as nav bouys and so on.
Poke around with the glowpoint code, I think you'll like what you find.
9: Unstable Subspace Flight (etc)
Subspace seems deeply un-used. If I had my way it'd carry the same sort of threat as Babylon5s Hyperspace does. To aid this a start would be such things as unstable jump nodes, the allowance for lightning in normal space as well as in nebulas (and thus in subspace as well... it'd be very creepy). Anything that can be done to jazz subspace up a bit and point out that it's just as strategically vital a place as real space is (heck, the last FS mission sees you fight inside subspace).
Something very cool would be to have the same lightning storm paramaters avaliable in subspace missions as nebula missions.
10: Light Source Blinding
When you face the sun you get a white out of the screen, why not also see this effect when flying to close to ships engines or other bright light sources such as firing beam cannons and such. This would only be a local effect so you'd have to be close, but it's still a small change that'd make sense.
Hm, some lens flares might be nice here. But the effect would have to be used selectively or else you wouldn't be able to see anything at all.
11: Smoke Emissions
I imagine this can be done via the particle code we already have. But one of the things I loved about Starlancer was the intense damage you could do to a fighter and really see it. Fires and smoke started in abundance and you really knew if you were in trouble when you started smoking. This would be great in FS2... the same smoke could also be used for vents and such, perhaps for cooling purposes etc... whatever takes a persons fancy.
I don't know what the status of the particle code is, but you already have streams of fire gushing out from damaged fighters. What WOULD be nice is to have the effect scaled up for capital ships (bigger gushers of flames) and to have the particles fade into smoke instead of just cooling off and dissapating. Some new particle ANIs and table tweaks could make the latter possible without any code changes.
12: Red Out / Black Out
This is one of those things that people might hate... but if you've played a flight game it does add a certain something to the way people have to fight. High G maneuvers cause red outs / black outs. Granted FS2 is set in the future and might have guards against this, but perhaps it'd be cool none the less. The code for the screen fade is already there in the sun-glare code, it'd just be a case of applying it if/when a player does a particularly extreme maneuver.
I like the idea of a ship's performance being limited by the pilot's capability, but this is definitely beyond the scope of the FS gameplay. I can't think of any easy way to activate or deactivate this without changing the gameplay at a fundimental level.
13: Chargeable Primary Weapons
What better example than Descents Fusion Cannon? The longer you hold down the primary fire, the more charged the weapon becomes and thus the more powerful. Release trigger to fire. Overcharging results in damage to the players own ship. Simple, effective, fun.
Yes. Coders ought to look into this. :nod: AFAIK you should be able to peer into the original Descent source code and adapt that.
14: Newtonian Physics
Don't panic. This needn't be complete newtonian physics. A toggle could be added for "free flight", that is the ship can turn in any direction but continue to move in the direction it was originally facing when the toggle was turned on. This allows for many B5 style "turning round and shooting the face of the guy persuing you" type stuff. Just make sure the AI doesn't use it ;)
If I remember correctly from the FS1 table comments, you can set the deceleration values for all ships to 0 so the only way you'd be able to stop is to turn around and thrust in the opposite direction.
That means that you wouldn't be able to change direction of your own Volition; that would be an Outrage! *groan*
15: Partial Repairing of Hulls W/ Welding Effect
Two things here really, support ships able to repair a players ships hull slightly (a random amount between 5 and 30%?) But no more than that for the entire mission... it's a support ship after all - not a repair facility. Also, if this is taking place a welding effect could be created.. perhaps similar to when a ship has taken critical damage - but red - (you know, the lightning arc effect). Not to sure about this though...
There is a flag for support ships to repair hulls, but a box next to it enabling FREDders to specify a certain threshold of repair sounds like a great idea. The welding effect I think is confusing and unnecessary.
16: Rail Guns
See Quake3 I guess... the trail should certainly be similar and fade after a matter of seconds.
Can be done by giving a primary weapon a high speed and a long missle smoke trail. This has been avaliable since FS1; see the Port's Railgun for an example.
17: Fire Support
Again, not to sure about this. A comm option allows the player to request fire support - all ships without a current target will direct as much fire as they can on the selected hostile target. Note that they won't change their current orders or alter course (unless they are fighters/bombers without orders).
Everybody complains that TAG missiles are useless, yet we get requests like this... :rolleyes:
18: Area Effect Mines
Allows the creation of mine weapons - any ship detected withing a .tbl set distance (perhaps 2K) around an armed mine will cause the detonation of the mine.
A nice extension of the flak code could create a new proximity detonate flag for weapons; they would explode if a hostile was within a certain radius of the projectile, like flak, and not on impact. Lots of possibilities here. :)
19: Subsystems Damaged Locally
If a subsystem is disabled/destroyed then the area of the subsystem will give off electrical arcs similar to when the entire hull is critically damaged. Pretty aesthetic, but who cares.
Could be interesting, but limiting the electrical arc would be a very difficult task for coders. Probably not worth the effort.
20: HUD Damage
If a players subsystem is hit by energy draining weapons such as EMPs, or if it is destroyed, then the system will blink offline - that is it will simply disappear from the HUD all together untill the system is repaired.
FS2 already has a better system. Should you have damaged comms, incoming transmissions are garbled; if you have damaged sensors, your radar goes static-y; when your weapons are damaged you get malfunctions. You've never noticed this?
21: Autodock
If a players (or any other) fighter/bomber is within docking distance (300m?) of a capital ship then the ship is moved automatically to dock with the ship. This assumes that the players craft can be moved "remotely" so to speak... but it's high time we could dock with something other than subspace!
Goober's working on this.
22: Shuddering
When a capital ships main drive comes online (or when it engages its subspace drive) it shudders slightly from the increased energy activity such a device might cause.
The amount of shudder would be miniscule and certainly not noticeable. Do you see a real naval battleship shudder when it starts up its engines? No, of course not. Those inside the ship near the engines would certainly feel something but externally the effect is negligable.
23: Directional Thrusters
I might be getting the wrong impression about how FS ships move about... but in RL rockets and such rotate/change direction via small thrusters. It could be neat to see these little jets firing on fighters / bombers etc as they change direction. Not sure how much of a resource hog it'd be though...
This would require model changes that I doubt anyone would bother to take the time to do.
24: Subspace Inhibitors
If a ship is within the field of a subspace inhibitor, it cannot jump out unless it leaves the area (which could take bloomin' ages) or destroys the inhibitor. This could be effected with comm chatter, graphics and so on. Take a page out of Star Wars "Interdictor" class destroyer to see what I mean.
Can be done with SEXPs easily... when the ship is in the area, break the player's warp. Make checks on all the ships in the area so they can't leave while this ship is here.
25: Asteroid Storms
Fast moving small rocks are set to move from point A to B (could use the existing waypoint system for this). The storm could be specified with speed, density and area of effect.... could make a change from the average asteroid field.
So you'd have a moving 'river' of asteroids instead of the current box? Neat. There would have to be large code changes to simulate the far edges of the river in the distance, however. Some clever backgrounds (the kind that Sesq does) should do this. I can't say navigating through a mobile asteroid belt sounds like fun, though...
26: Improved Asteroid Physics
When an asteroid hits another it should split into smaller chunks and move off in other directions at a faster pace. What's really needed for this is a lot more different asteroid models of a massive variation is size... anything for a little variety. Star Wars: AOTC had a great asteroid chase scene. If we could get that kind of thing in game... well... wow.
Asteroids are quite boring at the moment. The asteroid code is already kind of half-hearted, and someone dedicated to improving all aspects of the asteroid code and models would be welcome, but not necessary. This is another one of those long-term projects.
27: Blurring
A blur effect around strong light sources (suns, jump points and so on). Simple but sweet.
Eh? You don't find the corona enough?
28: Hull Breach / Weld Effects
Used in ship repairs / construction or where a ship is being borded. Possibly have spark particles where the two ships intersect?
Would require the limiting of the electric arc effect, as stated before. Some creativity in impact ANIs and weapon tabling could do this.
29: Automatic Detail Increase On Screenshots
As the name says, this should probably be an option for most people but it'd be nice to have the best possible looking screenshots... hence if there's any way for the game to force the highest possible detail setting in every aspect of the game (and then drop it down to whatever it was before) - that'd be neat. However this could be tricky and also not used much... I'm in two minds myself.
You don't always want screenshots to be at their max settings for everything. Let the screenshot taker max out their settings if they want.
30: Ignitable Gasses
Area effect gasses that can be placed either in game or perhaps within containers etc. Hence containers filled with certain cargo are moer / less explosive than others. Exploding containers could reference a certain .tbl tag for explosives with a unique sound, shockwave and so on for each entry (if desired - otherwise a generic effect is used). This would be really neat and emphasise players being careful about what happens to cargo and so on - since a cargo container of meson particles going up would be bad news for everyone in the area - and the effects should reflect that.
Expanding the special explosion field of the ships editor could deal with this. Variety in shockwaves is always cool. :)
31: Nebula Density Affects Flight
Different densities of gas give off different flight charachteristics. So one particular nebula might be dense and provide more resistance against craft going through it - while others may provide no resistance at all.
This is a stretch. To actually affect your fighter's performance the consistancy of these fields would have to be as thick as water! Under such conditions propulsion and shipbuilding would have to be completely different, not to mention the plausibility of such a dense field without a significant gravitational source. In other words, it's not physically possible.
32: Collision Siren
Another one that should be an option - not everyone wants this in their ear. When the players craft comes within a certain distance (5m?) of another ship or object, a low collision siren sounds. This is another effort to enhance the feeling of being in a cockpit.
Have you ever been in a car with a backup proximity sensor? It can get really annoying. Now imagine that sort of thing on EVERY side of your craft. Best to leave this one out.
33: Subsystem Targetting in Main Display
As the name suggests, the subsystem the player has targetted is surrounded by a targeting box/bracket in the main screen as well as the targetting box.
:wtf: The targeted subsystem is already marked with a box (or diamond) on your main screen...
34: Remote Control Craft
Player operable craft from remote such as probes and such... the player can take control of another ship by remote but is still vunerable in their own ship.
Can be done with some creative FREDding, I guess. Say the pilot's safely in a remote control cabin on the home ship, like the combat simulator, and that you're controlling a probe.
35: Enterable Nebula
I don't think I need to say much on this - everyone wants it. Could find out the similar kind of system to that that Star Trek: Klingon Academy uses?
Still being debated.
36: Supernova Shockwave
A shockwave animation to accompany supernova events.
I don't think this is needed... we're going to see very, very few supernovas to make this a worthwhile addition.
37: Black Holes
Based on a flat plane model/animation with gravitational pull effect on ships. Possibly stretch ships slightly as they become drawn in?
Neat effect, but by the time you're close enough to the event horizon you're screwed anyway.
38: Scale Alteration
This one might be considered "BIG". In my opinion the sense of scale in the game is kinda flawed... things like capital ships look big from a way off, but when you get closer to them you can still see an aweful lot of them - the sense of scale just seems wrong somehow. It would be good to redo this to give off a better sense of scale - these ships are supposed to be big dammit! ;)
Done with FOV changes, look it up.
Also, if the ships in the game are re-worked for improved detail and such, missiles and so on should reflect this change and be *incredibly* small compared to the craft that carries them, otherwise it seems that the craft in game are cavernous to be able to carry several hundred Furies or even 6 Helios bombs. There must be room for the pilot in there somewhere! The solution? Reduce the size of ordinance (while maintaining detail).
I disagree; the missile models are the size they are to make them visible and (for bombs) killable. I see no real harm in the current missile sizes.
39: Impact Mortars
Weaponry alteration. Allowance for Fire and Forget bombs with no guidance lock of any kind (but also can't alter course untill they hit something). They're slow moving but incredibly powerful. Detonate around 10 metres away from any large object they come into contact with.
With the proximity detonation code ripped from the flak (see number 18) this could be easily done.
40: Momentum
Kinda with reference to the above, objects have momentum so that it takes some time for them to come to a halt. The AI might have to be redone so that ships come to a halt at the end of their waypoints but spend some time slowing down beforehand.
See number 14.
41: Detachable Ordinance
Like the name suggests, missiles and such can be mounted outside the ship that carries them and dropped - exactly in the same style as todays aircraft do. This is especially possible with the upped poly count that HT&L provides. It's fairly aesthetic but who cares.
Seems far too complicated and dangerous (for compatibility) with too little gain.
42: Player Controllable Turrets
This may link in with the whole "fly by wire" idea above, but in this players could (REM) link to a turret and control its fire. Again this would leave the players ship dead in the water and very vunerable.
You would be better off by cutting all engine power and just rotating in space.
43: Squad Specific Image Maps
If a squadron.tbl references ship image maps other than default then these maps are used instead of the default maps. This could be good to enhance the concept that a SOC squadron of Erinyes might get a custom paint job on their fighters to indicate they were special ops - but the original vanilla paint job of Erinyes could still fly in the same mission without having to worry about changing models around and so on. I really like this idea myself if it's at all possible to do, it allows a lot more immersion without the user having to fiddle around with files and such. Just place all the maps and tables where they should go and you're away.
Can be done with FRED2_Open's texture replacement code.
44: Guided Mine Code
When a ship is (x) meters from the mine, the mine fires a one shot rocket at the target - it either hits, is destroyed or misses and detonates in empty space.
Have the 'mine' as a zero velocity proximity-detonate secondary weapon that spews one child.
45: Billowing Textures
For effects such as sails, flags and such. Ok there's no air in space but who cares. I'm sure there's a use if it's at all possible.
This might (and that's a very weak might) be possible in the far future with the HT&L engine using Q3A style geometry shaders, but I know nothing about such things so I really can't say.
And remember kids: search is your friend!
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Originally posted by Thunder (:p)]
15: Partial Repairing of Hulls W/ Welding Effect
Two things here really, support ships able to repair a players ships hull slightly (a random amount between 5 and 30%?) But no more than that for the entire mission... it's a support ship after all - not a repair facility. Also, if this is taking place a welding effect could be created.. perhaps similar to when a ship has taken critical damage - but red - (you know, the lightning arc effect). Not to sure about this though...
You can have support ships repair to a maximum hull % with
+Hull Repair Ceiling: 75.0 (or whatever value)
and
+Subsystem Repair Ceiling: 50.0 (or whatever value!)
after
+Disallow Support: 0 (...you get the idea)
Not quite the same as what you're asking. If we implemented this idea, we'd have to add an extra flag to note whether the ship's been hull-repaired or not to keep the player from simply calling in the support ship over and over again.
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4: Moveable Ship Sections
These would be really cool, for both player operated and automatic purposes. The first instance being for such things as the S-Foils on an X-Wing or for missile bay doors and such. The second being for weapons that feature recoil style firing (similar to the AA guns of WW2, or the station pulse defences on Babylon 5). Also good for landing bays and such on larger ships, or the seemingly movable "claws" of a Sathanas. The possibilities are endless.
This would be an immense improvement but would require a new POF version number and huge amounts of rewriting both model handling code and POF data. It's possible but far off in the future.
:nervous: It's already possible using lock-rotating-subsystem and free-rotating-subsystem.
21: Autodock
If a players (or any other) fighter/bomber is within docking distance (300m?) of a capital ship then the ship is moved automatically to dock with the ship. This assumes that the players craft can be moved "remotely" so to speak... but it's high time we could dock with something other than subspace!
Goober's working on this.
It can be achieved by activating the sexp player-use-ai and then giving the player's ship docking orders. (Be sure to turn off player-use-ai when done.)
43: Squad Specific Image Maps
If a squadron.tbl references ship image maps other than default then these maps are used instead of the default maps. This could be good to enhance the concept that a SOC squadron of Erinyes might get a custom paint job on their fighters to indicate they were special ops - but the original vanilla paint job of Erinyes could still fly in the same mission without having to worry about changing models around and so on. I really like this idea myself if it's at all possible to do, it allows a lot more immersion without the user having to fiddle around with files and such. Just place all the maps and tables where they should go and you're away.
Can be done with FRED2_Open's texture replacement code.
It can also (and more easily) be specified using the custom wing squadron logo option.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
4: Moveable Ship Sections
These would be really cool, for both player operated and automatic purposes. The first instance being for such things as the S-Foils on an X-Wing or for missile bay doors and such. The second being for weapons that feature recoil style firing (similar to the AA guns of WW2, or the station pulse defences on Babylon 5). Also good for landing bays and such on larger ships, or the seemingly movable "claws" of a Sathanas. The possibilities are endless.
This would be an immense improvement but would require a new POF version number and huge amounts of rewriting both model handling code and POF data. It's possible but far off in the future.
:nervous: It's already possible using lock-rotating-subsystem and free-rotating-subsystem.
[CO
oh yeah, right, I'm sure even you wouldn't take that option seriously :rolleyes:
.pof files are derivated from descent .oof files, I suppose?
I'm sure there's ways to find what is needed if you look there ( .oof files used keyframes ).
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Originally posted by Venom
oh yeah, right, I'm sure even you wouldn't take that option seriously :rolleyes:
Huh? :confused: Who was that addressed to?
I know it's possible; I've done it.
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.pof = Parallax Object File
.oof = Outrage Object File (i suppose)
so since V + O = P then .oof must be derived from .pof
but not necessarily version 2117 of the .pof specification
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Why not just give the player controll of the dock order through keybord command, ctrl-D anyone? It would allow for some intrasting mission veryations. Supose your escorting a cargo and the ship to haul the stuff is disabeld or destroyed, if you could dock to the cargo you could haul it to the drop of point, albet at a much slower speed. Just thought it should be looked into.
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Originally posted by Goober5000
It can be achieved by activating the sexp player-use-ai and then giving the player's ship docking orders.
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You CAN make a "training mission" with Fred that will have flashing Green letters on the objectives box...
Training missions can be made to use ANY combination you want and you can use a FRED command to see if a combination of keys has been pressed. (after a set of objective SEXPs was achieved)...
"Press Ctrl+D to dock with the Cruiser etc..." which in turn can activate the sexp player-use-ai and then giving the player's ship docking orders.
Mess with FRED. There is so much to do with it.
If I am mistaken Please Goober5000...."Help me out here!"
:)
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'Tis correct. :nod:
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Wow, I'm glad there's so much feedback! Let me address a few things.
1: I didn't change the thread title. Whoever did? Ha. Ha. :p
2: My entire angle on FS is that it should be fun to play. This doesn't mean I'm throwing realism right out of the window. But this is a game - not real life. Nebulas might not even be visible if you were in one in real life - but in the game they are and it's a lot more fun that way. I do not for one second expect people to debate this as "thats not very realistic" because I don't care. These suggestions are there because I thought it'd be neat / fun / open new options to mission designers etc. Nothing more. Now that we’ve established that…
To some more specific stuff:
3: Galemp, in response to your points:
“I don't understand; do you mean targetable, or what?”
Yes, that’s exactly what I mean.
“Not necessary, IMO. How often are you going to be using multiple suns?”
Good point, but if not for that then perhaps to illustrate distance? It’d be darker in deep space than it would be when you’re fairly close to a sun (say the distance from Mercury to the Sun) Make sense?
“Easy to do; glowmaps support ANIs. I've made a pulsating Sathanas glowmap ANI that does just what you're talking about.”
Fantastic. Some people are right, I’m not on top of everything that’s been done. I just scrawled ideas on some paper and transferred it all directly to this thread.
“Simple. Set your ship's afterburner recharge rate to zero. You start the mission with it full; once it's used up you're out of luck.”
I don’t mean that entirely… I believe the Wasp had its normal speed, after burner and *then* it had its pod for uber-fast speeds. That’s not currently possible I don’t think.
“Everybody complains that TAG missiles are useless, yet we get requests like this...”
True, but TAG relies on the mission designer allowing for it to work… this would be automatic in the AI so that the only thing you’d have to do is fire the weapon – the AI would do the rest.
“FS2 already has a better system. Should you have damaged comms, incoming transmissions are garbled; if you have damaged sensors, your radar goes static-y; when your weapons are damaged you get malfunctions. You've never noticed this?”
I never got that damaged ;)
“The amount of shudder would be miniscule and certainly not noticeable. Do you see a real naval battleship shudder when it starts up its engines? No, of course not. Those inside the ship near the engines would certainly feel something but externally the effect is negligable.”
Suppose so!
“This would require model changes that I doubt anyone would bother to take the time to do.”
It *is* aesthetic… like several other things here. But it’s an idea… heh.
“I can't say navigating through a mobile asteroid belt sounds like fun, though...”
But you know it would be really ;)
“Eh? You don't find the corona enough?”
No. I actually mean blurring that effects ships /anything else that are infront of these strong light sources. It needn’t be strong bluring.
“This is a stretch. To actually affect your fighter's performance the consistancy of these fields would have to be as thick as water! Under such conditions propulsion and shipbuilding would have to be completely different, not to mention the plausibility of such a dense field without a significant gravitational source. In other words, it's not physically possible.”
True, but then let me put it another way. Atmospheric flight ;7
“Have you ever been in a car with a backup proximity sensor? It can get really annoying. Now imagine that sort of thing on EVERY side of your craft. Best to leave this one out.”
Hmm.. could be – or perhaps as an option. I really want to get the feel of being in the cockpit into the game, that means all kinds of badness going off when you’re “in trouble” so to speak… heh.
“ The targeted subsystem is already marked with a box (or diamond) on your main screen...”
I need to play the game some more. *Hangs head*
“Neat effect, but by the time you're close enough to the event horizon you're screwed anyway.”
I’m not going for realism… but I suppose this is a rather big (and possibly not very important) debate.
“I disagree; the missile models are the size they are to make them visible and (for bombs) killable. I see no real harm in the current missile sizes.”
Hmm… personal taste thing. It just seems kinda stupid (from time to time) to see bloody huge ordinance leaving a rather small fighter. Ho hum…
“Seems far too complicated and dangerous (for compatibility) with too little gain.”
Could well be… another one of those “it’d be nice as an option” jobs.
4: FRED2 – The ever useful.
I do not count FRED2 as an acceptable way out for a lot of the ideas. I agree that it’s an incredibly powerful tool but just like the beam-free-all tag, it’s a lot of time and effort to input some of the commands into FRED2 to do what you want with it. I actually know about a few of the things that are possible with FRED2 and still posted points about them because, in my opinion, they should be included as default with the engine as opposed to something of a hidden battle to implement / check with FRED2. It is just me being lazy but I think overall it’d make the additions a lot more accessable if they were included as default instead of known only to a few.
But that’s just me. Continue to pull the ideas apart and see what can be done!
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hmmm.. what about "debris Scattering" it's just an idea... but when a large capship blows up smaller debris would fly everywhere, and might hit ships in proximity, it would also be cool if they actually bounced off nearby vessels...;)
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
My entire angle on FS is that it should be fun to play. This doesn't mean I'm throwing realism right out of the window. But this is a game - not real life. Nebulas might not even be visible if you were in one in real life - but in the game they are and it's a lot more fun that way. I do not for one second expect people to debate this as "thats not very realistic" because I don't care. These suggestions are there because I thought it'd be neat / fun / open new options to mission designers etc. Nothing more. Now that we’ve established that…
At ease, man. I like nebula missions, and there are nebulas that can block your sight in space, but they rarer than the normal ones. But the the nebula slwing you down, that's too wierd. I want to have the feeling that I still fly in space, and not in some wacko parallel universe.
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i would imagine it would slow you down in atmospheric flight, but we'd have to have totally different flight characteristics if we want true atmoshpheric flight since we'd need to do some reality check on speeds and such and also implement a stall speed or something to prevent the player from coming to a stop and hovering.
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Originally posted by Lynx
At ease, man. I like nebula missions, and there are nebulas that can block your sight in space, but they rarer than the normal ones. But the the nebula slwing you down, that's too wierd. I want to have the feeling that I still fly in space, and not in some wacko parallel universe.
Sorry, was just a good example - didn't want everyone levelling their "but that wouldn't be real guns at me" ;)
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Ive got some few ideas ( maybe someone write them )
1 Supply ship could repair hull ( not all but 25 % of it ) Ofcourse it must me new model ( bigger, with hangar for repairs )
2 Pilot can jump i one mission few times to do new objectives ( few steps missions )
3 Wew out tof the ship with hud ( whith Player Controllable Turrets we can pilot C or Cv ;7 )
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c914
Ahm....
All of them were already implemented. Look more carfully next time...
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I have a question Bob: How hard would it be to create axially moving subobjects instead rotating ones.
You would only have a fixed version of this, but with a little luck a huge garmada of things could be created using just the combination....
I know this kind of thing tends to scream for a new pof as well as a new collision detection algorythm, but then tell why rotating subs don't have that kind of problem.
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How about nanobots that repair your hull and subsystems, is it possible to do it with sexp's?
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lollollol
you can repair hulls with support ships now :P
and you can easily do it with sexps
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I'd like some better debries, and have all the debris stay.
Oh, yea, and the dock thing: could we have it where if the player is ordered to dock, he gets within about 300 m or so, and hits Ctrl-D, ending the mission? Rather than, you know, having it continue after he's docked and undocked.
EDIT: And Thunder, your 12th idea, about blackouts/redouts? How is that even possible, let alone realistic? I mean, nomatter where you push the stick, you're gonna get a black/red-out, cause there's no up or down in space. Plus, blackouts/redouts are caused by gravity, and since there is none in space (besides planets, etc, but it's a bit different), it couldn't happen. All ships with artificial gravity would have to keep it completely even across the ship, because even when it's plunging downwards, the ship isn't getting closer or farther from the gravity source (again, away from planets), so there would be no black/red-out.
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I think you can do that with a conditional check and an 'End Mission' sexp?
Flipside :D
Edit : Oh yes, and on the blackout/redout thing, it IS possible, because your own ship is what is creating gravity, it's not to do with what direction you are facing rather than how quickly your direction is changing, so a hard left or right in space will still create the same effect :)
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Oh, yea, also, I'd like some warnings! Like, for instance, you're hull's down really low, you get:
"WARNING! WARNING ! WARNING! HULL INTEGRITY! HULL INTEGRITY!"
in a computerized voice, sorta like *****in' Betty in modern-day fighters, and have it flashin across your screen, or, like, when you get a subsystem damaged, you get a Beep-beep-beep-beep, whenever it gets damaged or something.
Which reminds me, can we have subsystems more easily damaged? I mean, I flew thru FS2 with one of my subsystems getting destroyed only once!
EDIT: About your ship's gravity. It would have to be constant around you, so you wouldn't actually feel a difference where you moved, as the gravity source moves with you. Black outs are caused when you pull up, increasing the force of gravity on you (and gravity is BELOW you, not right NEXT to you, like in a space fighter), which causes the blood to drain from your head. Red outs are the opposite, as more blood rushes to the veins in your eyes, you can't see anything except red.
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Ok, it looks like we've gotten into another physics discussion here. There is no gravity in space, so in part you are both correct. However, in stating that it is gravity that causes blackouts the first error was made. It is not gravity, but the force of your body going through high acceleration that causes pilots to black out. High-G manuvers are high acceleration (measured in G's because we know what 1G's worth of acceleration, 9.8 meters per second per second, feels like) rather than amplification of gravitational effects. However, UT, you seem to be describing artificial gravity, which is not really possible as far as we know. Your idea of carrying gravity around with you is a bit like ST's inertial dampeners, which allow the interior of a ship to not feel the acceleration that it experiences from an inertial reference frame (outside). Not technically possible, but goes along quite well with artificial gravity technology. However, I would say that blackout effects are not suited to freespace (in part because of the relatively low speeds that you are manuvering at, and the fact that realism has never been a selling point for the FS series) but the idea still has merit.
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We ARE talking about FS2 here. in that universe, artificial gravity DOES exist (easily seen from the main hall).
And we're both right when it comes to the causes of blackouts: it's gravity that pulls the blood downwards during a high-G acceleration (going up or w/e)
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But it's not gravity though... gravity contributes slightly less than 1G of the acceleration that a pilot will ever feel. Take a 5 G loop for example (yes, a very tight loop I know, but use it for reference); gravity adds 1 g at the bottom of the loop, so the pilot is pressed into his seat with 6 g's of force. However, at the top of the loop, the force experienced by the pilot will be in the opposite direction from gravity, so the force he feels pressing him to his seat is 4 g's. In space, the 1g downward force is not present, but a similar loop (the same speed and radius) will still produce 5 g's of force on the pilot. The only difference is that the pilot will feel those 5 g's all through the loop rather than more or less depending on how he is oriented to the ground. In fact, according to your explanation of artificial gravity, the pilot would always experience exactly one g more than the acceleration caused by flying in a loop, as it is always pulling him towards the bottom of his spacecraft.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Oh, yea, also, I'd like some warnings! Like, for instance, you're hull's down really low, you get:
"WARNING! WARNING ! WARNING! HULL INTEGRITY! HULL INTEGRITY!"
yeah but wouldnt that help make the pilot panic? wich would make the situation worse? wich would make it easier to die?
arnt we sposed to avoid dying?
EDIT:
an Fs2 fighter does not have sufficient gravatinal pull to attrack much of anything visibile to a human....
does your car attract stuff on the ground? do you really think it would attract stuff in space?
for example
the Space shuttle (about the size of a small cruiser or transport) is massiver than Fs2 fighter and i dont see the astronauts sticking to it :P and i havnt heard astronats blacking out during manuvers in space (trajectory correction burns etc.)
the whole redout/blackout thing in space is quite unrealistic to say the least
(sry for the bad speelling)
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You missed the point Drew. The gravitational attraction from a spacecraft of any kind would really be negligable (ok the mothership in ID4 would produce some gravity, but not anything in FS2 or real life), unless there is some form of artificial gravity in place. However, the concept of feeling a manuver in space is very real. The space shuttle does not produce enough thrust to produce significant acceleration and thus no significant force. However, I would bet that astronauts in the shuttle do drift in the cabin in the same direction that the engines are firing; this drift, magnified by several dozen (if not hundreds) of times is the same thing that produces "G" effects in fighterplanes, and thus blacking out. Thus it is not gravity in any form, it is acceleration. The fighters in FS2 seem to be roughly equivalent to P-51 mustangs in terms of flight performance, so I don't see any pilots blacking out from combat manuvers. But if you get ships going as fast and manuvering as hard as today's top-of-the-line combat aircraft can, then you'd run into the same problems with pilot endurance that modern militaries have to watch for.
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Actually, the space shuttle's thrusters DO produce a lot of G-forces. Remember, the solid fuel boosters are only doing half the work of lifting the whole jumbo into space (that giant fuel tank isn't there for decoration).
In any case, red outs and black outs are both caused by acceleration effects and not gravity.
However, as pointed out, artificial gravity is obviously being used in the FS universe so inertial dampening isn't too much of leap to accept.
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Back on topic of suggestions, I'd like to see an update to the escort list, allowing the display to show more than 3 ships... say 5 or 6. I realize that you'd have to make new a hud ani to support this, and it would only funtion in higher-res (1024/768) mode, but it would be a serious advantage for escort missions. If this is impossible, impractical, or otherwise undesirable, I'd like someone to tell me, or perhaps post it in the FAQ sticky thread.
Later!
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It's certainly possible, but I'm not sure if it's a high priority right now. For the time being, escort-priority works well enough for us.
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Maybe so, but if you're escorting 6 escape pods and only 1 through 3 are displayed, if you're in the heat of combat, how are you gonna know if 4-6 take dammage?
Thank you very much for the reply to this Goob.
Later!
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Originally posted by ChronoReverse
In any case, red outs and black outs are both caused by acceleration effects and not gravity.
However, as pointed out, artificial gravity is obviously being used in the FS universe so inertial dampening isn't too much of leap to accept.
That's my thinking on the matter. FS2 capships obviously have artificial gravity (look at the mainhalls for proof of that) so that could be used to compensate for high G manouvers.
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It is obvious from the Mainhall....
Ugh. Do you see gravity there?
All I see is that everyone remains sticking to the floor or a lift, but this doesn't mean they do have artificial gravity.
Watch some Gundam or other space show anime where they hadn't had to bother with the constraints of filming live actors.
For all we know everyone could be walking around in magnetic boots (which is indeed seen in hall fight), or they could use something that would have similar effects like gravity.
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Originally posted by Flaser
boots (which is indeed seen in hall fight), or they could use something that would have similar effects like gravity.
that was a a shivan ship for all we know they could have had artificial grav. but it was disabled when the craft was captured
besides shivans dont exactally need artifical gravity. if you read the FS bible you know that shivans were jumping around in space without suits and stuff...yet they wernt being shot off into space or drifting or whatever
anyway why would artificial gravity cause the pilot to blackout/redout??? you want your own ship knocking you out???
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It is obvious from the Mainhall....
Ugh. Do you see gravity there?
All I see is that everyone remains sticking to the floor or a lift, but this doesn't mean they do have artificial gravity.
Look at it carefully. There are several things that show that either gravity is present or that Volition was too lazy to bother with showing the effects without it.
#1
Watch the guy going down the lift. After that he _walks_ down stairs. The acting of walking down stair requires gravity. It is possible without gravity, but you would have to pull yourself down using either you legs or arms resulting in a quite unnatural looking posture. The man walk down as if there wasn't any sort of difference.
#2
The guy in the chair. He is _leaning_ on his elbow. I can't see how this would be comfortable in zero-g. Also, when you hover the mouse over him, he turns towards you. Unless his entire rear end and back is also magnetically stick to his chair, the top of his body would noticeably turn past you a bit when he's trying to face you (since only his shoes are attached). In addition, he will also semi-standing up having nothing to keep his rear on the chair while his legs turn him.
In any case, wlkng with magnetic boots in zero-g looks quite different from normal walking (since it's not really walking strictly by definition, that is, falling and catching yourself using the other foot).
[edit] Also, the shape of Terran capital ships make it quite impossible to have rotational acceleration as a source of pseudo-gravity. They could only possible rotate along the length of the ship (due to it's shape), but since the distances involved are so small (yes it's actually small for this application), the "gravity" generated would be accompanied by a noticable sideways pull. Not to mention the motion sickness.
Shivan ships seem to have no gravity. In fact, the scientists expressed a degree of surprise at that and comments that perhaps Shivans evolved in zero-G.
[/edit]
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wathc hallfight, they talk about how we knoked out there gravity, they were of course assuming that the shivans had gravity to begin with, also you can see the odd way in wich they walk as ther boots suck them to the floor
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Shivans don't have gravity on their ships because they don't need it and it is unfamiliar to them. Terran and Vasudan ships, by contrast, seem to have gravity, judging from the mainhalls.
And didn't the commanding officer in the command brief cutscene walk a few steps at some point in a very normal way?
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Originally posted by ChronoReverse
Actually, the space shuttle's thrusters DO produce a lot of G-forces. Remember, the solid fuel boosters are only doing half the work of lifting the whole jumbo into space (that giant fuel tank isn't there for decoration).
I thought it was for fuel?! :confused:
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We were refering to the manuvering thrusters all around the shuttle, but you're very right. Those main engines do generate a lot of thrust.
Ok, so we have established that GTVA ships (at least the large ones) have artificial gravity. I would guess that fighters do not, or at least not to a full degree. However, in the context of the discussion the point is moot, as it is not artificial gravity nor the lack thereof that contributes to blacking out. I think blacking out has no place in freespace, (since it involves a lot of calculation, all the time, for something that the AI will ignore and which will only serve to be annoying as sin) but that doesn't mean it's a bad idea.
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Originally posted by Flaser
It is obvious from the Mainhall....
Ugh. Do you see gravity there?
Who says I was refering to FS2? Reload FS1 and watch the sparks coming off the Herc being repaired. No amount of magnetic boots will help you there.
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
Shivans don't have gravity on their ships because they don't need it and it is unfamiliar to them. Terran and Vasudan ships, by contrast, seem to have gravity, judging from the mainhalls.
And didn't the commanding officer in the command brief cutscene walk a few steps at some point in a very normal way?
But we don't know that they had no gravity... The CO in the movie did walk normal, even with magnetic boots...
THe T=V ships DO have gravity though... Of that we are certian:
The underside of the small elevator in the aquitane has hoses hanging from it, and why would the guy on the options screen in the galatae hall be leaning?
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Yes, artificial gravity doesn't contribute to blackouts and redouts at all, HOWEVER, the capability of generating artificial gravity means that it's quite plausible that there's in fact a form of inertial dampening in the fighters.
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I had a thought once:
The AGrav we speak of is in fact a low power sub-space field or constant warp.
It is created by using all the subspace conducts that are present in a capship - they simply put a low potential on the system and it creates a weak warp in space.
By amplying more power to lower conducts a warp difference is created that in effect creates a constant acceleration similar to gravity.
So it is not artificial gravity (after all it's not gravitational force) but something that simulates it quite well.
Oh...what are subspace conducts?
I thought that 'cause capships are so huge they need some amplyfying device to make the whole ship vibrate in syncron.
These are the subspace conducts that make the field of the subpace engine envelop the whole ship.
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...
If it acts like gravity, then it's Artificial Gravity.
Anything else is semantics.
Besides, even if your overly complicated theory (Occam's Razor, use the simple) is true, fighters also have subspace drives too.
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Argh....
No it is not artifical gravity because it does not act like gravity.
It merly creates a pull, but that pull is a constant thing regardless your distance form the conducts as long as you're between them.
This seems a pointless riddle over tiny details, but those details are crucial!!!
If they had true artificial gravity then ships could be accelerated regardless their stucture since gravity is more or less a space affecting force, moreover weapons could fire at huge distances with immense power.
Finally you could simply crush an opponent using artificial gravity that indeed creates gravitational force.
It is the major and long-term effect that most cliche writters forget. A simple invention has a garmada of other uses and possibities than the one you've made up your invention for.
So please, take a note, and call this weightiness "warpspace" or "warppull" if you give credit to my idea, but even if you don't , please don't just throw in some new techno jumbo, or other force. One of the reasons I like FS is that it's consistant and an invention's impact on life is indeed handled and valued.
So try to use already existing things to explain things that wouldn't bring about any unnecessary irregularities in the universe.
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Originally posted by Unknown Target
Which reminds me, can we have subsystems more easily damaged? I mean, I flew thru FS2 with one of my subsystems getting destroyed only once!
Just increase the subsystem damage factor of Shivan weapons.
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Maybe the capships have some form of 'Artificial Gravity' and fighters don't have the room for the technology? As for inertial dampening, they must already have some sort of system, else fighters would not be able to break out a spin, since they only have forward thrust, and theres no 'air' out there for them to use conventional steering mechanism, so the ship must somehow have a way to stop uncontrollable spinning, for example, when you are hit by an AA Beam.
Flipside :D
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NO GLOC
so sayeth Bobboau!
if someone implements it, I will un-implement it
now discuss something else!
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:nervous:
So, hows the weather everyone?
Flipside :D
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Flipside it was seen in the transport command briefing ani (where you transport the shields in FS1) that ships do have directional thrusters.
It would be a nice addon for the existing thruster handling to display those too -this would explain why it takes time to come to a complete stop.
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Originally posted by Turnsky
hmmm.. what about "debris Scattering" it's just an idea... but when a large capship blows up smaller debris would fly everywhere, and might hit ships in proximity, it would also be cool if they actually bounced off nearby vessels...;)
Uhh..... :wtf: What do you think model debris is? :wtf:
...and once more for good measure: :wtf:
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I assume redouts would appear whenever your inertial dampners get shot away ... and you could have repair systems set a priority for fixing that ... dunno about this, haven't actually played FS2 in too long ...
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If you were to lose your inertial dampeners, some of the turns you can make in a Perseus or Horus would probably be fatal. How about simulating the pilot dying when G-forces reach 10 G's or so?
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
If you were to lose your inertial dampeners, some of the turns you can make in a Perseus or Horus would probably be fatal.
Not bleeding likely - not at a mere ~100 meters per second. :p
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I hope this wasn't mentioned. How about adding the cruise ability like in Freelancer but it could only apply to fighters not warships. So....powering down all weapons and just converting power to thrusters. ;) And if it could be possible make something like tradelanes in Freelancer. Just change it to a subspace enviroment and you get in-game inter system jump. ;)
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Originally posted by Woolie Wool
If you were to lose your inertial dampeners, some of the turns you can make in a Perseus or Horus would probably be fatal.
ermm no. In Fs2 all the ships "fly" at an absurdly low speed. 100 mps is the equivalent of 0.06214 miles a second. Which is equivalent to roughly 328.09920 feet per second. A Boing 747 flys at around 500 feet per second...
According to Woolie, a good population of Earth should be dead.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Drew
According to Woolie, a good population of Earth should be dead.
:rolleyes:
Drew, you need to recheck your physics. It's not the velocity that matters, but the acceleration. Changing directions at 100 m/s requires different acceleration depending on how fast you do it.
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Yes. FS fighters can turn faster than planes by far (ever seen a plane turn 360 degrees in ~3 seconds?), producing huge lateral acceleration. Not to mention engaging your afterburners causes a pretty big acceleration too.
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I belive hat escape velocity is 11K/s... FAR to fast for Fs fighters, and hardly transports... The acceleration would DEFINATELY exceed 10 G's... I don't know the formula for inertia vs acceleration offhand...
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Originally posted by Sandwich
Uhh..... :wtf: What do you think model debris is? :wtf:
...and once more for good measure: :wtf:
:lol:
After having recovered from laughing at your response, I think he means that the debris is more persistent, flies off at greater speed, does more damage, and there's more of it. Or something. ;)
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greater speed? I got the reverse impression, that he wanted them to move slower, so the battle would be full of hazards after a big fight. just my 2¢
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Originally posted by Hippo
I belive hat escape velocity is 11K/s... FAR to fast for Fs fighters, and hardly transports... The acceleration would DEFINATELY exceed 10 G's... I don't know the formula for inertia vs acceleration offhand...
Velocity has nothing to do with acceleration other than:
v=a*t
So it's only a matter of time *and enough fuel - to reach excape velocity.
Actually any persistant acceleration greater than the planet's initial gravity would make you leave the system.
BTW the actual energy is the following:
f*(m+M)*Int(1/(r-r0)^2)
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In any case, what evidence do we have FS fighters would ever NEED to reach escape velocity? As far as I can remember, we've never ever seen them in a planetary environment. There aren't any ground attack missions. For all we know there's atmospheric fighters for that sort of thing :p
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the tech room animation of the Lucy bombarding Vasuda Prime shows a ship leaving the planet from the ground.
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I don't necessarily see the connection between "ships can fly in atmosphere" and "fighters can fly in atmosphere" :\ In fact, I'd think it'd make less sense, since all the work made to make fighters streamlined and atmospheric-capable could be used to make a better pure SPACE FIGHTER, period.
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Originally posted by Baron MacDoblin
In fact, I'd think it'd make less sense, since all the work made to make fighters streamlined and atmospheric-capable could be used to make a better pure SPACE FIGHTER, period.
but a little unecsessary... there is no need for streamlining in space cuz (obviosuly) there is almost no friction of any kind...
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Exactly.
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Escape velocity and leaving a planet are wrongly connected with one another!
The reason why they speak of EV is that any object that has reached that speed has enough kinetic enegy to leave Earth orbit.
On the other hand all you need is enough energy to lift you out of orbit. It doesn't matter at what speed you achieve it.
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Originally posted by Flaser
The reason why they speak of EV is that any object that has reached that speed has enough kinetic enegy to leave Earth orbit.
Any object? But KE is partially dependent on mass. How do they calculate that? (I assume the mass cancels out somewhere in the equation?)
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I think what Flaser is saying is that as long as your velocty away from the centre of gravity is higher than the gravitic pull (in Earths case about 9.8 m/s/s) then you are at escape velocity, so if you are going upwards at a constant 10m/s then you are at escape velocity, however the reason we have to go so fast is so the rocket doesn't run out of fuel ;)
Flipside :D
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Flipside, your post doesn't make any physical sense. You can't have "velocity higher than acceleration"... they're two different concepts. If you're moving at a constant velocity, you have zero acceleration... therefore you are not exerting any force, and Earth's gravity will pull you back down to the ground.
"Gravitic pull" = downward force = mass * acceleration
Kinetic energy = 1/2 * mass * velocity^2
You need to have enough energy to overcome the force... the problem is, I'm forgetting the equation that relates the two. That's why I asked Flaser to elaborate. :ha:
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Escape velocity is the speed a theoretical object would need to attain from "sea level" in order to escape a planet's gravitational pull, if that object had zero friction with the atmosphere. EV is purely to measure the velocity needed to escape the gravitational pull, nothing more.
....AFAIK. :p
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I always thought that fighters were streamlined was that shrapnel, bullets, and space debris bounce of curved stuff better than blocks (stuff would slide off a circle, but penetrate a cube).
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The reason I spoke of EV is that the force with which Earth pulls an object depends on its mass.
However accelration is also dependent of mass - so in the end, AT A GIVEN DISTANCE ALL OBJECT HAVE the SAME ACCLERATION.
F=f*m*M/R^2
F=forcer, f=gravitic constant, m=the mass of one of the bodies, M=the other object's mass, R=the distance of the two objects
Also any force:
F=a*m
so for the body with m-mas:
a=F/m
so
a=f*M/R^2
Notice that the bodies acceleration in the gravitic field doesn't depend on its own mass.
(however the other object for instence Earth acceleration does, however the difference is so huge between any orbiting object and a planet that the effect is negliable)
This is a constantly changing force.
The energy to escape from the gravitic wells is the ammount of energy the gravitic force would take in infinity (Why infinity? There's no such thing as limit of gravitation's reach, it is just extremely small over huge distances, the same goes for any EM field, to get the proper ammount of energy we have to calculate with this distance)
This energy can be calculated, to do so we have to integrate the work of the gravitic force.
so the potential energy is
W=f*M*m*INT(1/R^2)*dR=-(R*f*m*m)/R
Between to energy levels of the gravitic field:
The radius of the two levels (the distance from the source of the field) are Ra and Rb, where Ra is closer to the source.
W=f*M*m/Ra-f*M*m/Rb
In point A if your object has enough kinetic enegy to cover that (and air frition if youmove in air) and a little more, then you can reach point B.
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...and in English?
Speaking of which, where's CP been? He hasn't posted since.... November 27th...
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:nervous:
November 27? You mean, 25 days into the future? Wow. ;)
I thought I saw him online a few minutes ago.
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Bah. You know what I meant. :p
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red outs\black outs arent possible in space as they rely on G forces and there's no gravity in space :p
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oh no.
no offence, but what level of physics do you have?
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Hehe. Ever heard of inertial forces.;7
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No gravity in space?!?!!!!!!
That's freakinn stupid!
Tell me if there's no gravity in space what keep planets on their track?
There is no weght in a sapceship orbiting something or floating in vacum, because it accelerates or moves just as you do.
The very moment any of the thrusters kicks in you'd remedy your statement, 'casue for a military grade accelration you'd feel like 4G of acceleration smashimg you like a potato under my boot's heel.
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Originally posted by SuperCoolAl
red outs\black outs arent possible in space as they rely on G forces and there's no gravity in space :p
And this sort of comment is why that phrase about a little knowledge being dangerous was invented.
G-forces do exist in space. Think of it this way. When you turn a corner in a car quickly you get pulled to the sides. If gravity alone causes G-force wouldn't that mean that the entire Earth is now beside you rather than underneath you?
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And I really thought we dealt with that one a long time ago. This thread is only 4 pages long, why don't people read the whole thing when they post something like that?
"G" as a unit of force (actually a unit of acceleration as the force would depend on the mass going throught the turn) is somewhat like "atmosphere" as a unit of pressure, in that both are based on the conditions we experience on a daily basis as their point of reference. It relates to the magnitude of acceleration due to gravity at the surface of the earth. The strength of a force in a turn is in no way related to the gravitational field at that particular point in space, so to say that you need gravity to produce a "G" force is simply not correct.
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okay, okay im an idiot ure right etc...
i just hate sifting thru 4 pages when i get so little time on this particular computer
anyway who cares if its against the laws of physics- freespace IS against the laws of physics!
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I've un-stuck this now, it seems to have run its course and anyone who wants to reference back to it later will have found out it existed by now :)