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Off-Topic Discussion => General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandwich on October 22, 2003, 02:30:57 pm

Title: What IS real?
Post by: Sandwich on October 22, 2003, 02:30:57 pm
Talk about mind boggling (http://www.cgnetworks.com/gallery/gallery_image.php?image_id=358)...


Now they need to do another Original Trek or Original Star Wars movie, despite DeForest Kelley and Alec Guiness being gone. :D
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Styxx on October 22, 2003, 02:39:49 pm
Nothing really new there, you know. :p
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Sandwich on October 22, 2003, 02:47:28 pm
What do you mean?
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Styxx on October 22, 2003, 02:51:05 pm
The model is amazing, I'm not trying to deny that (much to the contrary), but it's not a secret that modern computer graphics technology and techniques can perfectly replicate people, at least on still pictures.

:)

Now, if it was undistinguishable from the real actor on an animated scene...
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Sandwich on October 22, 2003, 02:55:28 pm
All true, but you need to realize that there is a difference in rendering photo-realistically a random human in CG, and reproducing an actual human, when we all know exactly what he is supposed to look like. :)
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Styxx on October 22, 2003, 03:09:28 pm
Yes, I know that, and that's what I'm talking about. There are many examples out there of reproductions of actual people (mainly famous people), they're not just in movies or anything (because the animation techniques aren't up to it yet).

I remember a cover of a CG magazine from several years back (5 or 6 I think) that had a photo of Andrea Agassi (sp?). It just wasn't a photo, it was a 3D model - but it was undistinguishable from the actual photo (they had a comparison inside the magazine), and that was back then - it's even easier to do something like that now: if you have MAX, Maya or an equivalent program and lots of dedication you can do it yourself at home.

:)
Title: What IS real?
Post by: kode on October 22, 2003, 03:19:27 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
lots of dedication
 


read: no social life at all whatsoever ;)
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Knight Templar on October 22, 2003, 09:11:43 pm
Morpheus looks... 'small' for some reason.
Title: What IS real?
Post by: an0n on October 22, 2003, 09:44:36 pm
This is soooo old.

You've been able to reproduce people since the dawn of 3D. It's just that in the beginning it was too pain-staking to make an entire person vertex-by-vertex and too resource-intensive to allow it to be done with anything less than a contemporary super-computer.

**** gets faster and easier, but it's not new in itself.
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Setekh on October 22, 2003, 09:53:32 pm
Old or not, I'm still pretty impressed by it. I stand by the fact that nowadays, you can virtually create whatever you can imagine, if you have the patience. :)
Title: What IS real?
Post by: IceFire on October 22, 2003, 09:59:18 pm
I think as time goes along and speed increases, you'll have all the power you need to create fantastic things and none of the patience required to do it :)
Title: What IS real?
Post by: icespeed on October 23, 2003, 06:37:27 am
it's a bit sad, actually, the best pictures are usually the ones people spend ages on. now they can just click a few buttons for five minutes and rip something off... reminds me of the advent of cubism.
Title: What IS real?
Post by: ZylonBane on October 23, 2003, 07:55:27 am
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx
Now, if it was undistinguishable from the real actor on an animated scene...
Ermm... you mean like in the Burly Brawl?

Somehow, a still image of Morpheus isn't terribly impressive after seeing dozens of animated Mr. Smiths.
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Levyathan on October 23, 2003, 10:25:19 am
Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane
Ermm... you mean like in the Burly Brawl?

I've already discussed this with him. Good luck.
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Styxx on October 23, 2003, 10:40:17 am
Quote
Originally posted by ZylonBane
Ermm... you mean like in the Burly Brawl?

Somehow, a still image of Morpheus isn't terribly impressive after seeing dozens of animated Mr. Smiths.


No, I mean really undistinguishable.
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Gloriano on October 23, 2003, 01:14:50 pm
old but still somehow cool
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Flipside on October 23, 2003, 01:25:12 pm
I think the problem is here is that a lot of the likeness is in the face, which is a bitmap of an actual person's face, so it is simply mapping real-life onto a 'shell' rather than creating a real 'computer generated person'. It's impressive work, and a very good example of what can be done. Final Fantasy is a wonderful example of what I would call true computer anmation (or at least 'true' to a given value) :)

Flipside :D
Title: What IS real?
Post by: aldo_14 on October 23, 2003, 03:46:45 pm
That does look pretty real- but you'd have to see it in motion to make a real judgement, I think - i.e. how shading changes.

I don't think you'll be able to see a truly 'real' looking CGI model for a while yet, actually.... simply because cgi tends to be used in scenes that are physically improbably or impossible to do for real, and your brain can pick up on that and subconciously force you to search for imperfections.    

In fact, I'm getting that looking at that piccy - stuff like 'is the neck too dark', 'is the jacket too shiny & smooth' and soforth.  Much of which is probably the brain exaggerating..... i bet their is a bunch of neat neurology papers and stuff about this, if anyone can be arsed looking.
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Sandwich on October 23, 2003, 06:31:47 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
I think the problem is here is that a lot of the likeness is in the face, which is a bitmap of an actual person's face, so it is simply mapping real-life onto a 'shell' rather than creating a real 'computer generated person'.


:wtf: The face is not just a mapped photo - it's fully realized in 3D: http://www.getbuzzy.com/modeling/all.htm
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Knight Templar on October 23, 2003, 06:36:22 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Styxx


No, I mean really undistinguishable.


The only time they looked truely CG was when they had Neo doing slowmo in the air or with the pole.
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Flipside on October 24, 2003, 12:33:08 pm
Actually Sandwich, I think you'll find that although the model for the head is exactly the same proportions as Morpheus, the texture of the model head itself is created from a photo, this is what I meant, not that the image was a doctored photograph, I wasn't clear enough there, sorry :)

Flipside :D
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Stryke 9 on October 24, 2003, 06:47:07 pm
And it's not exactly difficult to set up the proportions more or less properly, it's really a very basic mock-up mesh there. As most are, in fact.

Mostly what an0n said. I've done stuff on software that was new back in the Win95 days that looks indistinguishable from stuff done now (or better, in at least one case. Procedural-tex sphere RDS starscapes kick any modern plugin's ass any time of the week). A lot less is manual now, and that's a good thing, but that's almost all that's changed. Radiosity, bones, particles- all of these can be broken down to very simple things that can actually be done, or at least faked convincingly, on any rig, provided you have the time. There is no "new technology" in 3D, just making the old technology simpler from the production end of things. But since us 3D modeler types are nothing if not bone idle, it'd be hard to know that just looking at the results you can see.

Incidentially, it's also not hard to set up a model such as this for realistic animation- even without the shortcut of motion-capture tech. Hell, you can see all the components of what would be necessary right now, they just have never really been put together. The reason you don't see it often has a lot more to do with the way pro animation houses like ILM and the like price-gouge than any serious technical problems- if you're a movie studio, you do not want to ask for anything that'll take 'em more than maybe a coupla days to do, you'll lose almost your entire profit. Those guys are disgusting, the way they rip people off. I so want to be like them.

Also, it'll never be used for simulating actors, for the simple reason that actors, like any red-blooded American, are lawsuit-happy to the point of the ridiculous. If "Spike TV" can be successfully sued for copyright infringement on Spike Lee's name, imagine what'd happen with unauthorized use of someone's face.
Title: What IS real?
Post by: Sandwich on October 24, 2003, 07:52:29 pm
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
Actually Sandwich, I think you'll find that although the model for the head is exactly the same proportions as Morpheus, the texture of the model head itself is created from a photo, this is what I meant, not that the image was a doctored photograph, I wasn't clear enough there, sorry :)

Flipside :D


No, I know that's what you meant, but it appears that from the  info page (http://www.getbuzzy.com/modeling/morpheus_info.htm), the guy made the textures, in Photoshop, based on the Morpheus pics on the Matrix site.... he doesn't mention anything about having taken the bitmap of Morpheus' face and applying it to his model... :doubt: