Hard Light Productions Forums
Modding, Mission Design, and Coding => FS2 Open Coding - The Source Code Project (SCP) => Topic started by: Kazan on November 12, 2003, 02:48:55 pm
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---==== Fourth Edit: Termination ===----
GameSpy appears to have acted in generally good faith in reguards to Mr Auriemma, while the DMCA casts a shadow on their action, the fact that they do not only rely on the DMCA makes up for it somewhat. Furthermore my inital impression that Mr auriemma acted in good faith in relation to his utilities is cast into severe doubt by his "Patches" page in which he blatantly provides for the violation of copyrights. His "verification programs" are not required to demonstrate the vulnerabilities and merely allow for script kiddies to exploit them. Furthermore GameSpy claims in email that Mr Auriemma was once associated with a security firm in Italy and once demanded a "consultation fee" from GameSpy, after which said firm immediately disavowed relations with Mr Auriemma.
I look forward to continuing our relations with GameSpy, catiously.
(off i go to defend them from the Slashdot Horde)
---=== Third Edit: Disclaimer ===----
The position posted by me in this thread is not the official position of the SCP as of 12 Nov 2003 18:00 Central Time
I am just calling for this action as this time in response to GameSpy's actions - should this action be taken an official announcement shall be made in a new thread upon commitment to the resolution
---=== Second Edit: After much investigation ===---
From Below
Final Conclusion: GameSpy's claim that Mr Auriemma is circumventing copyprotection and encryption is completely baseless. GameSpy is trying to silence a ciritic by use of the DMCA. We should as a community demand GameSpy explain it's actions IMMEDIATELY or break all relations with GameSpy
See Below for investigation
---=== EDIT: More information has come to my attention, see below ==---
The SCP should not affiliate themselve with any organization that will abuse the DMCA to silence people criticizing their software, the SCP is founded on the concept of Open Source and information sharing, GameSpy's recent action against a person who was informing GameSpy of weakness's in gamespy's software is in direct conflict with the community and ethics of Open Source Software.
The SCP Should immediately terminate all relations with GameSpy and it's network. Here is an article summarizing GameSpy's DMCA abuse action http://yro.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/11/12/1735212&mode=thread&tid=126&tid=127&tid=153&tid=172&tid=186&tid=99
[edit]
Responses to some IM's
We can move to VolitionWatch, or if the community could donate $120 I can get a domain name and one year of hosting with PHP, MySQL, 800MB harddrive space, and 40G/month transfer, with 400 email addresses -- i use this hosting provider for deepbluebettas.com -- they're world-class
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for those of you who don't understand what level of violation of free speech rights this is see : http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/DMCA/Gallery/
(CMU is one of the aboslute leading schools in computer science)
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I'd donate!
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awesome UT - if I can get $120's pledged to it then I'll then ask for those pledges be sent in and when I get all of it i'll create the domain+hosting
note: $120 pledges = domain + hosting for 1 years
$200 pledges = domain + hosting for 2 years
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The only thing we use gamespy's servers for are these forums.
Site is on Telefragged, and the CVS is on Warpcore.
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yeah, but *wispers in inqui's ear about some website stuff*
severing all relations with GameSpy means moving the forums
my reliable sources tell me that VolitionWatch is dieing
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I don't know what to say.
I first the post he made on security focus [http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/344214/2003-11-09/2003-11-15/0 ]
then I read thew gamespy's response [ http://www.gamespydaily.com/news/fullstory.asp?id=5474 ]
then I had a look at what he had on his website because he was accused of "But then we found out he was also publishing how to brute force our RogerWilco CDkeys and had published hacks on other game CDkeys as well. He was doing more than reporting bugs; he was publishing game pirating techniques." by Gamespy.
I looked at his site: [ http://aluigi.altervista.org/index.htm ]
And it he has a lot of tools available to use exploits. I cannot make any assumptions however, because he says that he hunts for bugs, and all the tools he provides just demonstate these exploits.
While I can say I agree that it's good he is willing to take his time to hunt out all of these bugs, he doesn't have to make available his tools available( and then you may say that other's will just do it, but hear me through first ).
I think the fact that he has all these tools [go and look through all the sections and you'll see what I mean] available is being used as ammunition against him to get him to stop making their bugs known.
I don't like that tactic being used, and it's a biased point of view, which everyone realises.
I also don't think he needs to provide his tools for people to download, UNLESS the companies have not responded to him after he told them of the exploits and they just ignored him. [Which it was said that GS had done, but I don't know about all the other compnies who he has provided tools to "exploit" their products]
Since I don't know the history or the whole story, I will not pass judgment. I'll wait on any further info.
Cheers!
*EDIT* I forgot to mention... I'm not saying it's bad to realease tools to test for exploits, because you needs tools to test for exploits, but I'm talking about making them freely available. I know it's a fine line to walk, and that's why I'm not making any judments.
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I didn't notice he was distributing the tools, good call - that wasn't the brightest idea on his part to distribute the tools
This redeems gamespy some what - it redeems them enough that I think we should ask them if they are only going after him for that, or if they're trying to completely silence him
[edit after reading origional PDF of GameSpy's C&D]
GameSpy's lawyers do not mention the DMCA until late in the article along with several other things - but they do quote source code comments out of context, and to not consider the rebutal argument that only informing gamespy may lead to gamespy ignoring the problem. While I agree that Mr. Auriemma should not be distributing tools to do this, especially not the CD Key tool, GameSpy's attacks on his advisories constitute a potential abuse of the DMCA
In light of this information I believe that we should contact GameSpy and ask them to explain themselves, if they are simply after him because of the hacking programs, then I will withdraw my call for relations termination. If they want his advisories completely removed (instead of just changed as to not let everyone know how to break the servers - but still saying there is a problem) then I will assert my call for severing relations
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Well if Mr. Surfas is right, this guy was posting some of the encryption code to RogerWilco and GameSpy 3D. GameSpy relies on the commercial versions of these programs for a good deal of their income, and I don't think they want hackers using this code to pirate their apps. Try to look at it from both points of view.
Besides, freedom of speech is NOT absolute. The Supreme Court said so during World War I. The fact is that what he said was NOT lawful speech. It is illegal to distribute information that can be used to circumvent copyright protection, and for good reason.
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the SCOTUS still upholds distributing information about weaknesses and vulnerabilities in software as free speech
when I first posted I had not noticed the CD Keygen for RogerWilco - this is a clear violation. If GameSpy went after him just for the CD KeyGen I would completely withdraw my call to severe relations, however they are going after is his security advisories as well.
I am now reading his advisories to see if they cross the line into justifying GameSpy's demand's
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Mr Auriemma praises gamespy for using TCP for masterservers, and also says to use his tool for verification purposes only http://aluigi.altervista.org/adv/msddos-adv.txt [Game's using UDP Masterservers]
in http://aluigi.altervista.org/adv/wilco-adv.txt (Remote Server Lock exploit, Broadcast buffer overflow) which is one of the files explicitly named in GameSpy's C&D notice Mr Auriemma is simply stating bugs in an informative manner, like any other security adviser would, he mentions his tools in a "use this to test only" method. The RogerWilco server vulnerable is the shareware GUI RogerWilco server (That simultaneously is a client). There is no malicious intent in this document
http://aluigi.altervista.org/adv/wilco-remix-adv.txt (another named doc) just a rehash (as implied) of previous one, gamespy didn't really fix the problems and he simply pointed that out
http://aluigi.altervista.org/adv/wilco-recvbof-adv.txt - he mentions, in poor english - that he waited one week after contacting gamespy to release the adviser, as per security community ettiquette. GAmeSpy did not contact him or do anything about the bug and thus his release of this advisory is completely justified
http://aluigi.altervista.org/adv/gs3d-ircbof-adv.txt -- his "explot" program does nothing but saves you from manually doing this with netcat - any exploit that can be triggered via a simple netcat is extremely henious, and diserves being exposed for all to see
I have no seen one spot where there is a CD Keygen, or anything else that allows for the circumvention of copy proteciton thus making GameSpy's claims bogus and grounds for terminating relations -- I am going to further investigate being ruling on the subject
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The application in Wilco.zip does not contain a keygen, cd key, key brute force - or other copyprotection circumvention method
The application in gs3dirc.zip does not contain a keygen, cd key, key brute force - or other copyprotection circumvention method
The application gsinfo.zip does not contain a keygen, cd key, key brute force - or other copyprotection circumvention method
Final Conclusion: GameSpy's claim that Mr Auriemma is circumventing copyprotection and encryption is completely baseless. GameSpy is trying to silence a ciritic by use of the DMCA. We should as a community demand GameSpy explain it's actions IMMEDIATELY or break all relations with GameSpy
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I'm jumping in the deep end here by replying before I've trawled the links and read all the info - but this question does spring immediately to mind.
How associated is the SCP with GS anyway? Yes, HLP is hosted with them. But as far as I can tell that's where it ends - except perhaps some advertising on GSs part.
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Associations between SCP and GameSpy
A) Using a Forum on gamespy's server network
B) GameSpy wishes to enter a partnership with SCP to release useable FS2 versions will all the mediate + SCP exec and media additions
C) Advertising on GS
Results of Severing relations with GameSpy
A) Forums must be moved and reliable sources inform me that VolitionWatch may not last long
B) No GameSpy Release of FS2+SCP
C) No advertising on GameSpy unless spontaenously created by gamespy staff
Purpose for severing relations with Gamespy
A) To protest abuse of DMCA to limit free speech of Italian citizen criticising gamespy for bugs
B) To Protest blatant misinformation in GameSpy's legal document sent to Luigi Auriemma
C) To protest lack of resolution of critical bugs in gamespy software after it has been brought to their attention
D) To protect ourselves from being associated with GameSpy's now negative image in the world of Open Source Software
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(/me emails gamespy)
I am a member of the FreeSpace 2: Source Code Project. I am ready to call for breaking all relations between the SCP and GameSpy over the DMCA C&D Letter sent to ITALIAN CITIZEN Luigi Auriemma on 12 Nov 2003. However, before I make a final push to call for severing relations I am going to give you an oppurtunity to explain yourselves and your reasoning in the hopes that you may redeem yourselves in my eyes and the eyes of the Open Source Community.
I looked into the claims in the letter and found that GameSpy has seemingly made false claims. The sections of the letter quoting Mr. Auriemma are out of context and do not consider the possibility that he was pondering that a malicious user may use the vulnerabilities to do damage, and not that he was implying that he would (which he did not imply). Second it appears that Mr Auriemma followed the good faith rules of the security community in trying to contact you before releasing his advisories. Third the software written by Mr Auriemma is simply to verify that the exploits exist as he stated, and he states that said tool should only be used for such purposes. Fourth the C&D Document claims that Mr Auriemma wrote software that circumvents copy protection, encryption, and brute forces cd keys. There is no evidence of any program that does this on the entirety of his website.
Furthermore Mr. Auriemma had contacted you in the past, and received replies and beta versions with the vulnerabilities resolved, only to later have the public releases still have said vulnerabilities, or apparent rollbacks to previous versions that had vulnerabilities Mr. Auriemma had previously addressed and gotten fixed, only to have them reappear with this apparent version rollback.
To summarize: GameSpy appears to have just used to DMCA to attempt to silence a critic, instead of using that critic's information to fix the problems in said software. Said Critic appears to have acted in good faith and attempted to contact you prior to publically releasing his security advisories. In contacting you before hand he attempted to give you teim to fix the problem before announcing it to the world, where he knew there are potentially malicious people that would exploit the published information to harm GameSpy. - He went out of his way to try and protect you from attack before releasing the information.
In the end he has gotten threatened by your lawyers instead of thanked for attempting to help you.
P.S. You have severely harmed your image today in the Open Source community, I hope that we may resolve this issue and restore your image.
I await your reply,
Derek "Kazan" Meek
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http://www.deepbluebettas.com
Programmer for FreeSpace 2: The Source Code Project
http://freespace.volitionwatch.com/fsscp/
Author of FS2 Modding utilities
http://alliance.sourceforge.net
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I'm not passing any judgement on what you can or can't do - but I think you should talk with the other "big guys" involved in the SCP before you speak for it... If you're just making enquiries or whatever, that's fine.
Anyhow, this bears a lot of discussion I think, please be clean and nice about it everyone - don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill....
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Kaz, I must say that I'm with you and I may be able to find some donation money somewhere for the new domain.....just not sure where yet!
I am sick and tired of various computing companies (online or otherwise) crapping all over their users, or asserting unnecessary (and sometimes unethical) control over them via the software used. Windows XP is a golden example! It actually writes some code to your PC that prevents you using older versions of windows! What if you decide that XP is crap and want to 'downgrade' back to Win2000 or 98?
And then there's the stuff relating to M$'s access to your machine, without your knowledge (until it's too late) which is completely against all the principles of computing!
Gamespy is treading dangerously close to a simlilar 'we own you' path, and no company should be able to do that and get away with it. Not Gamespy, not Sony (for want of a better example) and certainly not Micro$oft!
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Originally posted by Kalfireth
I'm not passing any judgement on what you can or can't do - but I think you should talk with the other "big guys" involved in the SCP before you speak for it... If you're just making enquiries or whatever, that's fine.
Anyhow, this bears a lot of discussion I think, please be clean and nice about it everyone - don't want to make a mountain out of a mole hill....
I am just calling for this action - I am not saying that we are taking this action
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Ok, I just wanted to be clear on that - I'm going to get on with reading about whats gone on.
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How does this affect us again?
Whatever. This guy got a cease and desist. Big whoop. He's not in jail or anything.
I might add that I find that letter you sent to be irresponisble, hardly the views of the team, and even less the views in general of the open source community, which to be honest, we just barely represent.
I fail to understand why they need to explain themselves to you. The only explanation that needs to hold up is the one they present in court (if it ever gets there, which it won't).
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Stuff that I don't care about, probably. ;)
I'll wait to see where this goes before rendering judgement.
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Sticks: It affects us because any company that uses the DMCA to unjustly squash criticism is acting like Microsoft - trying to hide their failures and play god over their customers.
Notice my language "I am ready to call for" I believe this implies that we are not taking this action yet, and that it is not the position of the team.
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I agree that the DMCA is bad. I also agree that maybe GameSpy didn't handle it properly.
However, reverse engineering code is illegal. So is posting the results of your findings. If the info gets out before the software company is ready with a patch, then who suffers? Only the end user. In this case I don't think a cease and desist was so far out of line.
However, the use of the DMCA in this case may have been. I can't say, because I'm not a lawyer.
You still didn't explain how this affects us. If I act like Bill Gates it doesn't mean that Tom Jones loses record sales. There is no direct correlation.
Notice my language "I am ready to call for" I believe this implies that we are not taking this action yet, and that it is not the position of the team.
You are correct. It implies that this is the case. It does not state it directly.
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Think about it this way, Kazan (and everyone else):
Choice A: We cut relations with GS
Pro:
1) No risk of legal action
Con:
1) No advertising on one of the biggest gaming sites on the planet.
Choice B: We stay with GS.
Pro:
1) We get some heavy-duty advertising
Con:
2) We could all get screwed up the ass at any time by GS, if they so choose.
If Kazan can prove that GS is using the law incorrectly, I'm all for moving to our own server (hell, it would be nice to have an easy-to-remember domain name). If not, well, what have we got to lose by staying here?
BTW, for the record, I don't trust GameSpy.
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UT: nice summary
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GameSpy admits they have had a previous relationship with the man in question in bug fixing
The man in question acted in good faith - he notified gamespy of the bug in advance of relasing the information to the public, and the ammount of time was the standard (1wk) used by the security community - so naming the advisories was stepping to far
however under widening my investigation beyond the domain this into other sections of his pages I stumbled across the "patches" - which at first glance I had assumed were patches for his programs - no they are no-cd patches for ever peoples games - not that is clearly a violation of the laws stated (but i don't see any GameSpy property in the list)
Sticks: he didn't reverse engineer code, he just observed bugs in it and found their pattern.
I am coming to the conlcusion that althought gamespy stepped a little to far in attacking the advisories, I think they are right in attacking and using the DMCA
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So we maneuver things so that all work on the SCP is our own - that is to say that we can walk at any time and take all materials with us, owing them nothing.
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yep Kal
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Works for me, obviously the discussion isnt over - but at least that goal is kinda "there"...
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Ok - I think i'm going to withdraw my statement
While their attacking his advisories is overzealous, he was walking a thin line with the utilities, a thin line which i believe he crossed after further examination.
While I do not completely trust gamespy, like I do not completely trust any large business, I do not think they are heniously in the wrong here which was my initial reaction to the usage of the DMCA. They do not only rely on the DMCA and Mr Auriemma once requested a "consultation fee" from them, along with his blatant copyright violations on his site (See "Patches" - especially the UT2K3 ones) I believe he may have acted in good faith with his advisories, he did not act in good faith with his programs and reguards to copy proteciton
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when you go after someone you generaly through anything you can get ahold of at them,
wether or not the advisorys were a violation or not, he still defenantly made violations on the copyright front, maybe GS's legal department isn't as tecnical minded as they should be and maybe that's why they list some things wich realy arn't truly illigal, but there are violations, and even if this was as unwarented as first proported I don't think we should make any hasty choices, for the reasons this thread clearly illistrates
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We need to set up some sort of AIM, ICQ or MSN (not IRC, a lot of ppl can't get on that) chat to discuss this GS business.
You see, the problem with GS is that they are a company, and, like all companies, want one thing: profit.
Therefore, if we go into ANY partnership with them, we are walking a sheet of ice about a cm thick that they will screw us over, and take everything we have done.
After all, they partner with Interplay, take the **** we've done, and release it for paying customers only.
That's a little extreme, I know, but GS could concievably do that, OR even hire off you guys (our programmers) to do more exes. Only prob is, they could make the exes for paying customers only, again.
We'll have to tread VERY lightly in this matter. One wrong move, and 5 years of work goes down the drain.
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And doesn't www.freespace-open.com sound good to you all? :)
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to make exes that they control the distribution to they'd have to buy the origional code from Volition, then buy our changes from ALL of the SCP coders
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Although I want to avoid all the political...rubbish.... I must say, it'd be nice to see a community of this size and quality at least have their own centralized hosting and domain name. The URL for these forums is definitely a handful, especially since I can't use a bookmark for it half the time (I Move around several machines). From what I see in terms of activity on the forum, although it's quite active as forums go, it's not a 250-people at any one time job. You could probably host the forums with a semi-decent home broadband package and a domain name...
(Edit: I'd offer to put it on my server, but I fear someone will suddenly go "Ah but there's tonnes of activity in these sections, you just never read them!", and the activity would actually be enough to slay my meagre connection... Actually thinking about it, it's quite possible the frequent screenies/pictures would be bad for the ole bandwidth.. Dunno, How active /is/ the forum?)
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UT: i was thinking fs2source.com
I think im going to fork this into a new thread
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We (the community) should REALLY look into some good hosting, such as www.hardlight.com or some such. would really help out the new guys.
And anyone who donates for the server(s) gets, what, 10 mb of space?
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"You are being redirected to MyPills.com" ?
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hardlight.com is cybersquated
anyone who donates could get a tag on forums like "SCP Site Sponsor"
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www.hlp.com
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www.hlp.com = squatted "no website is configured for this address"
http://www.whois.sc/hlp.com
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I get "The page cannot be found" for hlp.com. It does have an IP assigned though...
Houston Lighting and Power ? (Whois info)
(Edit: Bah, Kazan beat me to it, but I blame the 10 minutes where all the gamespy.com and fileplanet.com sites appeared to die for me. Odd that)
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I for one am finding this discussion to actually be quite fun. So, for the heck of it I pulled up the DMCA and gave my godparents a call (who are civil lawyers). They had never dealt with it directly, so that wasn't much help. However, there are a few clauses that are pertinent to this issue:
Title 17: Chapter 12: Section 1201: Subsection (f)(1)
Notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (a)(1)(A), a person who has lawfully obtained the right to use a copy of a computer program may circumvent a technological measure that effectively controls access to a particular portion of that program for the sole purpose of identifying and analyzing those elements of the program that are necessary to achieve interoperability of an independently created computer program with other programs, and that have not previously been readily available to the person engaging in the circumvention, to the extent any such acts of identification and analysis do not constitute infringement under this title.
This section dealing with reverse engineering does not specifically prohibit reverse engineering of code to expose flaws in the code logic or programming. However, it does not explicitly allow this behavior, either.
The following segment of the DMCA deals with being exempt from prosecution for revealing security flaws:
Title 17: Chapter 12: Section 1201: Subsection (j)(3)(A)
whether the information derived from the security testing was used solely to promote the security of the owner or operator of such computer, computer system or computer network, or shared directly with the developer of such computer, computer system, or computer network; and
He did not use the information solely for himself (a violation), but he did share it with the developers (an exemption). Which one applies?
This is the fundamental problem with the DMCA. It's language is far too vague and does not adaquately cover all possible facets of computer use.
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Heh, hardlightproductions.com just bookmark it. lol
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Sticks: i know the problem with the DMCA - they had him on things other than the DMCA fortunately
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Sorry, I just thought I'd post something educational, and anyhow, I don't mind law research. ;)
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ok.. was just wondering why you posted... btw you wouldn't happen to know what Goober is talking about with PXO Session IDs do you?
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I can't say that I've ever had the opportunity to use the netcode at all, actually. Is there a master server running?
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This is an important issue but lets please not get ahead of ourselves...
If we were to cut relations with GS it would be a huge loss of advertising/ etc. But look at this objectivly, how many times has this happened? If GS was makeing huge abuses of the DMCA all over the place it would definite grounds for cutting relations. So far there has only been 1 documented abuse...
When that guy released ways to circumvent GS security tech, Its easy to see why GS would veiw it as a major threat. look at his site, this dude has released hundreds of exploitable bugs on alot of softwere; dosnt really enhance this guys credibility. Crackers all over the place had the information that could help crack GS soft.
the question is; Is luigi wrong for releasing ways to crack GS soft, or is GS wrong for shutting him up for doing so...
plz lets see where this heads before we make MAJOR descisions about HLP
anyways, if we did leave, we would lose a major chance to revive FS2.....
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no the master server is what's being worked on right now so it's not on it's final destination.. i have to make arrangements with Inqui to get it's final spot up
right now it's only up when im testing ****
Drew - turns out it wasn't an abuse, but a justified use -- read the _entire_ thread -- i was entertaining the idea, and it's SCP not HLP that was involved
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Originally posted by Kazan
-- read the _entire_ thread --
i did
but i think the members have an idea on what i mean by "abuse" because the use was treated by a couple members as an "abuse"
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For everyone's information, Kazan's fundraising thread was moved to the internal forum pending discussion with the rest of the SCP staff.
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For the best, I was aftaid Kazan was going a bit OTT. Have you looked into SourceForge at all?
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there is no such thing as an over the top reaction in relation with abuses of the DMCA - however they didn't abuse it, just used it
i have a sourceforge remember, it's kinda limiting (no mySQL)
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I haven't read the whole nor do i intend to do it, Kazan you are making a big fuss out of nothing. Maybe Gamespy did act wrongly in some way, but that is not of our concern. Its they that are going to get sued and not us(IF they get sued). Just drop this and move on.
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Windrunner is totally right on this (the fuss part only), it is of minimal concern! whether you have an open source project running on their server and have relations with them directly on the project. This is an internal issue directly running with the company and a previous employee/contractor or whoever that guy is...of course silencing him will only respawn yet another, but things like this will always come into play whether people see these faults or not.
Right now I think its in everyones best interest to stay on gamespy, whether problems like this arise in the future. :nod:
I think the only time we should should be protesting is when its about Freespace :D
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I've just read through the whole thread. Kazan, I am proud of you that you stand so strongly against what is wrong. However, I must strongly request you to not make any more statements to GS till this calms down some more. Partly because of the turnaround in your opinion through the course of this thread - one day you may say something very serious and not mean it in 24 hours. Secondly, your statement affects the relationship everyone else here has with GS, even if you explicitly state that your opinion does not represent the official stance of the staff. Please don't jeopardise our hosted relationship unless it's absolutely necessary - and right now, it really is. I just ask you to hold a little longer if you plan to take more action. Thanks.
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i agree with Setekh:nod:
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Setekh: i talked to GS, I asked them for clarification and what not, and they responded very promptly, part of my change of opinion was there responses. They were quite happy in my last email when I was like "ok, i agree with you ........ now im going to go defend you from the Slashdot Horde" :D
Windrunner and Max: you're missing the point
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A business's priorities are:
1. Making money
2. Making more money
3. Everything else
Anything that can be used to suck revenue from a corporation is considered to be a Very Bad Thing by that particular corporation.
The reason why games are moddable is so that people who don't have the game will see the mods, spooge all over their keyboards, and buy the game.
Ever wondered why all of the minor "Mom and Pop" car companies in the US (Saleen, Mosler, etc.) modify existing cars or build exotic supercars? It's because the Big Three will do everything in their power to destroy any competition to them. They can't stop import manufacturers, but they pretty much have choked off any possible competition in the mainstream domestic car market. GameSpy is a business, and it has to roll in the big bucks or it's in trouble.
That is why a lot of software companies exert such control over their customers: they want to get as much money from them as possible.
Don't like it? There's nothing you can really do about it. Too bad, so sad.
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ok, i read most, and i skimmed the rest, and i am compeletly lost, pratially due to some references to posts not there.
could someone, explain to me, in very, very simple terms, in about a line or 10, what the real poblem is.
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The DMCA has been used to squash criticism before in difiance of the 1st ammendment, and the corporations that abuse it never go against anyone with the lawyers to get it in front of SCOTUS so that section od the DMCA could be nullified.
At first it appeared that GameSpy was abusing the DMCA, but what it was is thatt they didn'y only rely on the DMCA and just used it for additional clout (let their laywers who only care about money right the letter) and they had a justifiable reason to go after the man. While going after his adviserories is a bit excessive, he did have it coming due to piracy software he had on his site and he had tried to extort a "consulting fee" from gamespy in the past.
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aha.
so you sent an angry email to gamespy for bascily nothing, practicly in the name of the SCP, while we were trying to get Gamepsy to host the SCP and FS2.
please tell me i misunderstood.
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kasperal, Kaz did send an "apology" and received a freindly response from GS; i think our relations with GS are peachy for now...
you didnt misunderstand, your just a little behind on the descussion ;)
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i did not send an _angry_ letter i sent a _concerned_ letter from a _member_ of the SCP, and GameSpy was very prompt and forthcoming in responses and our relations are good, and they are very excited to be continuing our relationship and hoping that we can get the fileplanet release of FS2 going
our relations are better than peachy
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ok, good, no hard feelings, i hope?
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I don't think you can have a 'peachy' relationship if there are bad feelings! :D